How do you view Cloud's Character?

[Roger]

(Tifa )"Wait, Cloud!"( Barret) "Tifa! Let him go!" "Looks like he still misses the Shinra!" ( Cloud) "Shut up!" "I don't care about either Shinra or SOLDIER!" "But don't get me wrong!" "I don't care about AVALANCHE or the Planet for that matter!"


Cloud doesn't really give a shit that Avalanche want to save the earth from being on it's last-legs. Also there's the scene in the very mako reactor where Barret is educating Cloud about what horrible harms Shin-Ra is doing to the planet, and Cloud doesn't care about the planet being tortured by the Shin-Ra, he just cares about him.


Cloud "It's not my problem." Barret "The planet's dyin', Cloud!" Cloud "The only thing I care about is finishin' this job before security and the Roboguards come."

First of all, he was obviously deflecting because Barret's comment struck a sensitive nerve. He says he doesn't care about SOLDIER but to the best of our knowledge Cloud doesn't have a clue as to what prompted him to leave at all. And besides, that's the attidute 90% of the Planet took on the issue. I can't really see them all being cold-hearted.

 

[Splintered]

(Tifa )"Wait, Cloud!"( Barret) "Tifa! Let him go!" "Looks like he still misses the Shinra!" ( Cloud) "Shut up!" "I don't care about either Shinra or SOLDIER!" "But don't get me wrong!" "I don't care about AVALANCHE or the Planet for that matter!"


Cloud doesn't really give a shit that Avalanche want to save the earth from being on it's last-legs. Also there's the scene in the very mako reactor where Barret is educating Cloud about what horrible harms Shin-Ra is doing to the planet, and Cloud doesn't care about the planet being tortured by the Shin-Ra, he just cares about him.


Cloud "It's not my problem." Barret "The planet's dyin', Cloud!" Cloud "The only thing I care about is finishin' this job before security and the Roboguards come."

Not trying to pick on you, but this is a great show of why it's so hard to get Cloud's character right, he's so complicated that at this point, we aren't sure which part is Cloud, which part is him wanting to be like Zack, and which part is just Jenova messing with his head.

That said, the beginning of the game has him pretending to be coldhearted, and him changing throughout the game. Even before Cloud knows who he really is and finds himself, he's developing as a character. Especially towards the end, I do think he does care about the planet. Or at least, he's aware of the problems.

 

[ForceStealer]

He does care about the Planet, though he's the first to admit - and encourages the others to admit - that each of them aren't REALLY fighting for the Planet but for something personal that happens to involve helping the Planet. And for such a dorky guy, its that kind of insight that makes him such a good leader.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

-Period of cockiness and overconfidence following the gaining of those abilities before tragedy strikes, leaving a renewed sense of purpose

That's not quite right though for Cloud.

That's Disc 1 of the game.

I'm willing to give you these to a degree. I disagree a little on the Aerith/Gwen bit. Gwen's death wasn't a result of her own actions, and Parker COULD have stopped it had he made it in time. There was nothing Cloud could do to save Aerith with Sefiros in his head.

I don't see how Peter could have saved her. If he hadn't fired his webline she would have either hit the water and died or hit the outcropping of the bridge support and died. Since he did fire his webline to catch her, though, her neck broke from the whiplash (obvious on-panel and confirmed three issues later in the letters page of "Amazing Spider-Man" #125).

Oh, and was never confirmed to really be interested in Aerith in that way ...

He agreed to be her bodyguard for a date, dude. Anyway, she still holds the status of a love interest for the character.

... and Aerith never slept with Sefiros and had his two terrible children.

Can't we pretend that shit storyline never happened? Especially since it was written more than 30 years after the poor woman died.

I wouldn't really say Cloud has the same hangup to the degree Parker does. It's only become a major issue for Cloud in a few incidents, most in retrospective of his life when he's dying. Parker however, is CONSUMED by it, so much so it's a constant theme and driving force in his life.

In fairness, there's been much less material featuring Cloud, so -- relative to his number of appearances -- responsibility has been a huge issue for him, comparable to that with Peter.

It's such a big part of him it lead to his guilt consuming him and causing him to make a terrible choice with no regard for the people it affected most.

... and you can't really say Parker "ends up" with MJ after the whole OMD incident and them deciding to just be friends(it's an asinine clusterfuck but what are you gonna do?).

And we're definitely not going to count that horseshit. For me, I stopped caring about Spider-Man comics when "One More Day" came along. Just like anything related to the Endless should stop counting with "The Sandman" #75 (or maybe "Endless Nights").

What. Parker has plenty of badass moments that earn him cool points over the years. He rarely fails at being cool when it matters.

Cloud has plenty of badass moments too, but any attempts at being cool underscore the awkward.

Actually Black Cat would be "more sexy" love interest ...

Bullshit.

Paker is a TERRIBLE leader. He himself acknowledges this, this is one of the reasons he avoided being a part of a team for years. He's willing to take orders and fall in line in the Avengers because he really doesn't trust his own judgment when it comes to ordering other people around.

I don't remember a moment where other heroes have looked to him to lead them in a time of crisis.

Issue numbers aren't coming to mind at the moment (I may try to look them up later if I don't forget; remind me), but I can remember team-up issues where he's been in such a position and proved himself capable. No doubt he's utterly uncomfortable with it and ill-suited to it, though.

Also, while Cloud's brashness/arrogance/general rudeness was a result of his mind being fucked with, he's still a really nice, kind guy at heart that really wouldn't want to hurt anyone.

Parker on the other hand really is an asshole. He's a good guy, yes. But he's also a rude, loudmouth arrogant asshole and master troll. He has no problem insulting ANYONE friend or foe, and will go to great lengths to humiliate people(burning johnny storms hair off, leaving tiretracks on the Daily Bugle)

For example:

...

A master troll, sure, but he's still got a huge heart. Remember when the Black Tarantula killed some gangsters that were shooting at both of them (threw a fucking car on them) and Peter was enraged because, even as criminals, "they had families, people who loved them"?

I loved that shit he pulled on Cage there, by the way. Thanks for reminding me of that scene.

 

[Roger]

That's Disc 1 of the game.

When in Disc 1 did tragedy get rid off Cloud's confidence? Cloud bounced back from Aeris' death like that, he was all "I'm gonna go after Sephiroth, ya'll better come with me to prevent from trying to kill anyone else."

And later while reliving the brutal destruction of his own hometown "All illusions Tifa, nothing to worry about, what's up?"

 

[Ryushikaze]

Dac, I'll agree fully that Pete and Cloud are not perfect analogues, nor are the outlying characters. I simply refer to their archetypes.
Cloud is the talented but oftentimes insecure dork
And I give Aerith the Stacy rather than the Ben not because of the romance angle but of the 'powerless to do anything about it/ I got there too late' aspect of the guilt over the death. I'd give her Ben, but Ben's more 'Why did I do nothing' and Cloud doesn't quite have a Ben Guilt moment. He has his Uncle Ben (Mentor who's death reinvigorates Cloud, though Zack's is to different effect than Ben's), but no one he cares about dies because of a direct failure to act (Unwillingness v Inability). Arguably, Zack and Aerith are both 'Uncle Bens' serving as 'Gwen Stacy' deaths.

My point is, Peter Parker is probably one of the better Western Heroic analogues, right down to doing something fucktardedly stupid in order to help those he cares about.

I still think Peter's is stupider, though.

 

[Max Payne]

I don't see how Peter could have saved her. If he hadn't fired his webline she would have either hit the water and died or hit the outcropping of the bridge support and died. Since he did fire his webline to catch her, though, her neck broke from the whiplash (obvious on-panel and confirmed three issues later in the letters page of "Amazing Spider-Man" #125).

He could have gotten there sooner, or you know, took Osborn down faster. Honestly it was just bad timing.

He agreed to be her bodyguard for a date, dude. Anyway, she still holds the status of a love interest for the character.

Yeah, but can you really say that was "him"? That's a whole nother can of worms. Also, Gwen isn't a "love interest" she was Parker's dream girl that he was madly in love with, she was his girlfriend and the girl he wanted to marry before MJ even came into the picture. That kinda trumps "love interest" no?

Can't we pretend that shit storyline never happened? Especially since it was written more than 30 years after the poor woman died.

No.

In fairness, there's been much less material featuring Cloud, so -- relative to his number of appearances -- responsibility has been a huge issue for him, comparable to that with Peter.

Yeah....no. Cloud has had isolated issues. Parker is a walking mouthpiece for responsibility. He never goes a day without going on about it, or dwelling on it. It's his theme and the major premise behind the book.

And we're definitely not going to count that horseshit. For me, I stopped caring about Spider-Man comics when "One More Day" came along. Just like anything related to the Endless should stop counting with "The Sandman" #75 (or maybe "Endless Nights").

It still happened, and ignoring it don't change that brah.

Cloud has plenty of badass moments too, but any attempts at being cool underscore the awkward.

Parker still has plenty of moments of being cool. Especially when he trolls people.

Bullshit.

Lolwat. Parker himself thinks that Black Cat is a massive sexpot compared to MJ. He thinks MJ is hot and one of the major love interests of his life, but Black Cat always gives him a boner in his tights.

Issue numbers aren't coming to mind at the moment (I may try to look them up later if I don't forget; remind me), but I can remember team-up issues where he's been in such a position and proved himself capable. No doubt he's utterly uncomfortable with it and ill-suited to it, though.

....The marvel team up books are completely irrelevant in the large scheme though. I can't remember the last time something in them was referenced in 616.

A master troll, sure, but he's still got a huge heart. Remember when the Black Tarantula killed some gangsters that were shooting at both of them (threw a fucking car on them) and Peter was enraged because, even as criminals, "they had families, people who loved them"?

I know? I'm not denying that. Just saying the man is a massive douchebag.

 

[Max Payne]

My point is, Peter Parker is probably one of the better Western Heroic analogues, right down to doing something fucktardedly stupid in order to help those he cares about.

I'm still not convinced he did the deal with Mephisto for anyone but himself. He's the only one who benefited from it. Aunt May was happy and moving on with the people she loved in the afterlife, but he just couldn't handle the guilt and stole that from her so he could feel better about it all.

 

[Ryushikaze]

I'm still not convinced he did the deal with Mephisto for anyone but himself. He's the only one who benefited from it. Aunt May was happy and moving on with the people she loved in the afterlife, but he just couldn't handle the guilt and stole that from her so he could feel better about it all.

Which is part of why the stupid in his is far, far stupider.

I really do want the other shoe to drop on OMD, Aunt May finding out what he did, BEATING THE CRAP out of him, and forcing him to undo that shit.

 

[KOZMIKKAT]

Based upon seeing the "real" Cloud after the lifestream scenario in disc 2 and Advent Children, I think Clous is just a confused, akward (at times) man trying to grasp reality. That's understandable after knowing his past. He tries to play it cool, but he lacks confidence in himself.

I agree, he is complicated and mysterious, but that aside, I still like Cloud as a protagonist/anti-hero.

 

[Max Payne]

Which is part of why the stupid in his is far, far stupider.

I really do want the other shoe to drop on OMD, Aunt May finding out what he did, BEATING THE CRAP out of him, and forcing him to undo that shit.

I want the Avengers to get on his case about this shit.

It would have been one thing to just involved May and MJ, but he fucked the memories of EVERYONE.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Based upon seeing the "real" Cloud after the lifestream scenario in disc 2 and Advent Children, I think Clous is just a confused, akward (at times) man trying to grasp reality. That's understandable after knowing his past. He tries to play it cool, but he lacks confidence in himself.

I agree, he is complicated and mysterious, but that aside, I still like Cloud as a protagonist/anti-hero.

He doesn't work as an anti-hero, though. He tries to play the anti-hero at the beginning, but the trick to FF7 isn't that he's an anti-hero, but he's a man who's not quite a hero first playing at the former, then the latter.

Dac, I REALLY wonder why Dr. Strange hasn't lectured him on the whole affair. He's typically unphased by the Mephisto Mojo. The others might not remember, but he should.

 

[Roger]

I have to agree with Ryu, yes he claims he doesn't care about anything other himself at first, but as soon as he runs into Aerith he becomes her bodyguard for free, goes to rescue Tifa of her own volition, goes to save the doomed Sector 7 pillar at mortal risk and so on. He never gets a chance to follow up on his bravado against Barret before becoming a more standard lead with a past with the villain.

 

[Max Payne]

Dac, I REALLY wonder why Dr. Strange hasn't lectured him on the whole affair. He's typically unphased by the Mephisto Mojo. The others might not remember, but he should.

I've been saying this for the longest, but there's been no real explanation for it. Doctor Strange EXISTS to prevent mystical incursions into this realm ffs.

But then it looks like marvel is doing all kinds of dumb shit the magic part of their universe so fuck it.

 

[Ryushikaze]

I've been saying this for the longest, but there's been no real explanation for it. Doctor Strange EXISTS to prevent mystical incursions into this realm ffs.

But then it looks like marvel is doing all kinds of dumb shit the magic part of their universe so fuck it.

If a writer could successfully wrap up OMD and have Strange's not speaking up about it make sense- like as part of a larger plot to strike a massive blow on Mephisto and Pete and MJ were technically in on it even though they don't currently recall, that might work.

 

[Max Payne]

If a writer could successfully wrap up OMD and have Strange's not speaking up about it make sense- like as part of a larger plot to strike a massive blow on Mephisto and Pete and MJ were technically in on it even though they don't currently recall, that might work.

Doing that would require even more retcons, and Strange is sorcerer supreme anymore, marvel is busy taking a dump on him.

He was in the recent OMIT bullshit, and he didn't even have much of a real role in it!

 

[KOZMIKKAT]

He doesn't work as an anti-hero, though. He tries to play the anti-hero at the beginning, but the trick to FF7 isn't that he's an anti-hero, but he's a man who's not quite a hero first playing at the former, then the latter.

Dac, I REALLY wonder why Dr. Strange hasn't lectured him on the whole affair. He's typically unphased by the Mephisto Mojo. The others might not remember, but he should.

That's a good point, Ryu. Anti-hero was the wrong choice of words. When I think about it, I always looked at it as Cloud ends up (or being forced to) being the hero due to circumstances and scenarios that were out of his control. He gets caught up into the drama and during so he develops as a hero.


As for Marvel, I only collect old school Marvel comics (70's-early 90's). I don't know any of the new storylines (except Civil War). The only direction with the characters that Marvel has taken so far that seems to be promising is the upcoming anime by Madhouse. But I'm skeptical even on that.....

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

He could have gotten there sooner, or you know, took Osborn down faster. Honestly it was just bad timing.

Well, if you're going to go that route, you could say that Cloud could have gotten a stronger will sooner if he hadn't been so desperate to hide from his true self. It's best to just look at the moment of the deaths and say, "Yeah, neither of them could really do shit about it."

Yeah, but can you really say that was "him"? That's a whole nother can of worms.

In either case, I think it's reasonable to conclude his penis responded to her.

Also, Gwen isn't a "love interest" she was Parker's dream girl that he was madly in love with, she was his girlfriend and the girl he wanted to marry before MJ even came into the picture. That kinda trumps "love interest" no?

How much a love interest she was doesn't make the term itself an understatement. I didn't put nearly so much thought into my choice of the words as all that.

No.

Well, some of us would like to look at the stories that weren't complete shit.

Yeah....no. Cloud has had isolated issues. Parker is a walking mouthpiece for responsibility. He never goes a day without going on about it, or dwelling on it. It's his theme and the major premise behind the book.

And it's a major theme for Cloud throughout most of his appearances (BC, CC, LO and AC/C). Again, relative to the amount of material featuring him, the ratio of how much material that features Cloud dwelling on it and how much features Pete dwelling on it is about the same.

It still happened, and ignoring it don't change that brah.

Yeah, but ignoring it does let us discuss the character without including a shittard development that should have never been allowed to see print, as it utterly destroyed the character and everything he was supposed to stand for (responsibility), while simultaneously removing any reason for readers to ever care again.

Lolwat. Parker himself thinks that Black Cat is a massive sexpot compared to MJ. He thinks MJ is hot and one of the major love interests of his life, but Black Cat always gives him a boner in his tights.

Just because he has questionable taste doesn't make reality any less reality.

....The marvel team up books are completely irrelevant in the large scheme though. I can't remember the last time something in them was referenced in 616.

In fairness, examples do extend to issues in some of his own series.

 

[Max Payne]

Well, if you're going to go that route, you could say that Cloud could have gotten a stronger will sooner if he hadn't been so desperate to hide from his true self. It's best to just look at the moment of the deaths and say, "Yeah, neither of them could really do shit about it."

I still think parker could have a done a better job protecting Gwen. He didn't have someone in his head toying with his motor controls.

In either case, I think it's reasonable to conclude his penis responded to her.

You mean, assume. Also, lol.

How much a love interest she was doesn't make the term itself an understatement. I didn't put nearly so much thought into my choice of the words as all thought.

Yeah, but love interest typically is used to refer to people who can potentially be in a relationship with the MC, not someone who he's already involved with and bonking.

Well, some of us would like to look at the stories that weren't complete shit.

It is what it is man.

And it's a major theme for Cloud throughout most of his appearances (BC, CC, LO and AC/C). Again, relative to the amount of material featuring him, the ratio of how much material that features Cloud dwelling on it and how much features Pete dwelling on it is about the same.

Yeah, I'm gonna disagree here.

Also, if we're going by how much material we got, Parker still beats Cloud down in this regard.

Yeah, but ignoring it does let us discuss the character without including a shittard development that should have never been allowed to see print, as it utterly destroyed the character and everything he was supposed to stand for (responsibility), while simultaneously removing any reason for readers to ever care again.

It is what it is. You can't talk about Spidey without talking about the dumb shit in his books.

Just because he has questionable taste doesn't make reality any less reality.

Well, Marvel considers her the most sexually attractive out of all his love interests, as do most fans who aren't chubby chasers. Sorry, brah, you're beat.

Looking at the physique of both characters, MJ has the typical model type figure, like BC has the athletic, super curvy body, with the pouty lips and long silver hair, and a costume to go with it. Objectively she would have the most sexual appeal to many men. Varying tastes do apply however.

In fairness, examples do extend to issues in some of his own series.

I don't remember any of them playing any kind of significant role.

 

[Sigbru]

Wow, how did you guys come from Cloud's personality to OMD? That's just an insult to Cloud. At the very least, I doubt Cloud would sell Tifa to the Devil

 

[Ryushikaze]

We came to it because as fucked up things Cloud has done, he's not done anything near that.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

If for no other reason, trading a woman like MJ to Mephisto for his shriveled up, ancient aunt who will probably keel over from old age any day anyway was fucktarded as all hell.

I mean, really, I almost expected to see Pete get the same bullshit screw pulled on him that Johnny Blaze did when he had his own dealings with Mephisto to save a dying relative.

Well, Marvel considers her the most sexually attractive out of all his love interests, as do most fans who aren't chubby chasers. Sorry, brah, you're beat.

I think Cap said it best:

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y165/citiprime/page2captainamerica.jpg

 

[Ryushikaze]

If for no other reason, trading a woman like MJ to Mephisto for his shriveled up, ancient aunt who will probably keel over from old age any day anyway was fucktarded as all hell.

I mean, really, I almost expected to see Pete get the same bullshit screw pulled on him that Johnny Blaze did when he had his own dealings with Mephisto to save a dying relative.

When I first heard about it, I was actually hoping it was going to be one of those 'It's a deal!' 'Wait, I didn't!' and Pete wouldn't remember the deal for awhile. That would lead to an interesting plotline about Pete figuring out what went wrong and forcing Mephisto to set things right (with the help of some heavy hitter friends and legal chicanery). But we can't have nice things, apparently.

I think Cap said it best:

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y165/citiprime/page2captainamerica.jpg

Well, you lot can dicker over Black Cat and Gwen, I'm'a take MJ.

And Angelica.
And Pepper.
And Natasha.
And Rachel.

 

[Max Payne]

If for no other reason, trading a woman like MJ to Mephisto for his shriveled up, ancient aunt who will probably keel over from old age any day anyway was fucktarded as all hell.

I mean, really, I almost expected to see Pete get the same bullshit screw pulled on him that Johnny Blaze did when he had his own dealings with Mephisto to save a dying relative.

You forgot to mention that she had already passed on and hooked back up with Uncle Ben and was happy.

Also, your taste sucks.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

When I first heard about it, I was actually hoping it was going to be one of those 'It's a deal!' 'Wait, I didn't!' and Pete wouldn't remember the deal for awhile. That would lead to an interesting plotline about Pete figuring out what went wrong and forcing Mephisto to set things right (with the help of some heavy hitter friends and legal chicanery). But we can't have nice things, apparently.

Apparently so. While still unnecessary, retarded, retardedly unnecessary and unnecessarily retarded, it would have been alright.

Well, you lot can dicker over Black Cat and Gwen, I'm'a take MJ.

I'm the one saying MJ is the hottest, fucker. You can have Generic Blond Girlfriend #321, a.k.a. Gwen "I'm Dead and Left You Feeling Needless Guilt Over It For Years but Fucked and Had Babies with Your Archenemy First" Stacy.