How would you re-write AC/C?

[Obsidian Fire]

^This. The FFVII cast don't generally do things for altruistic reasons. They do what they do because it benefits them as people, not because it serves some abstract "cause". All of them admit that they aren't saving the world because they're "saving the world". They end up saving the world as a byproduct of taking down a bunch of people who pissed them off and because there's people living in the world that they care about.

 

[hian]

Even after Aerith's death, falling into the Lifestream, having his conciousness explored by Tifa and all that, he still says that he is still partially motivated by his personal grudge against Sephiroth and he encourages everyone to leave and recall the personal reasons they all to be there beyond just saving the world. Cloud is never completely selfless.

No, he's never completely selfless, but there is a spectrum here, and a very different reason between working to stop a person who burned down your home-town, killed your mother and a person you cared deeply for, who's about to destroy the world -
and working as a professional soldier that has no room to make personal considerations at all, for a greedy and oppressive global corporation because you want to impress a girl and some villagers.

Even Cloud's personal grudge is pretty much completely morally justified throughout the game. It isn't a petty grudge against a morally grey villain with redeeming qualities - it's a grudge based on horrible injustice done to him by a basket-case who's hell-bent on killing off all of humanity.

^This. The FFVII cast don't generally do things for altruistic reasons.

Except all the times they do, like when Cloud saves Aerith in the church, when they (if the player so chooses) get involved in the Forth Condor struggle, when they save Priscilla, etc etc.
There are so many places where Cloud and Co go out of their way to save people it would, if they were primarily self-interested and pragmatic, make more sense to just ignore and leave to their fates.

They do what they do because it benefits them as people, not because it serves some abstract "cause".

If we're going to be technical and a bit philosophical here, there is no such thing as "true altruism" - altruism is always based on a measure of self-interest. This is story though, written by Japanese people, who like many people across the world, largely still believe in the naive notion of true altruism, and as such will incorporate that in their stories to some effect. That being said though, altruism is only ever going to be apparent on a spectrum because, again, true altruism doesn't exist, and so a keen observer will always be able to pick apart the apparent altruism in a story.

That doesn't mean that altruism wasn't intended by the writer as a motivation for a character though - it simply means that no matter what the intentions of the author, he or she cannot write something that is, for all intents and purposes, a nonsensical concept.

To get specific though - If Cloud and Co. don't save the world, they'll die along with everyone else. That's not an abstract cause, but it's as altruistic as it realistically gets when you consider that "everyone else" is also a given in relation to their motivations.
If we supposed for a moment that Cloud and Co were real people, acting in accordance to their characters from the game, and you gave them the option of
A.) the path of least resistance, of saving the world and only their little group, or
B.) a more difficult path, of saving the world and most of mankind
which do you think they would choose?
I would make the argument that the plot makes it pretty clear they would have chosen the latter, which is what makes them "altruistic" characters.

All of them admit that they aren't saving the world because they're "saving the world". They end up saving the world as a byproduct of taking down a bunch of people who pissed them off and because there's people living in the world that they care about.

Look at those two sentences again. They're literally the same thing in the context of the argument I was making.
Altruism does not apply to inanimate objects. "Saving the world" in terms of FF entails saving the world with the people in it - not just the lump of rock that those people live on.

I hope you weren't under the impression that I was claiming Cloud and Co was fighting largely to literally "save the planet"?

 

[Starling]

Since there's no such thing as true Altruism, I don't see how you can claim any motivations beyond the main one of being able to help people would suffice to say Cloud wasn't selfless enough to succeed when somehow stuff like settling an old grudge that just happens to involve saving the world magically crosses some invisible line that makes it selfless enough to succeed just because. FFVII made a point of subverting expectations and deconstruction tropes when it comes to the various characters so why would it have to automatically assumed to follow arbitrary rules on what motives are met with automatic success or failure?

I explained why Cloud's reasoning for joining SOLDIER is for the sake of others and why Tifa not being in any immediate danger doesn't invalidate that. He doesn't want to be unable to help if a situation like that happens again. Remember that Tifa could've died from that fall. She may have been fine afterwards but Cloud didn't want something like that to happen again, so he tried to get the means to do more if it did.

You seem to think Cloud already wanted to join SOLDIER when that happened but he actually brought that memory up in response to Tifa asking him why he wanted to join SOLDIER to begin with. He specifically mentioned he first heard of them shortly after that incident, not before. Incidentally, I might as well point out that Zack joined so he could be a hero and managed to do heroic things without issue.

I also don't see how Cloud's plain as day, explicitly stated desire to be strong enough to help the people he cares about would be suddenly invalidated by wanting to prove himself. Basic psychology has it that when people keep treating you as worthless, you try and fight against that, not just to prove them wrong but to prove to yourself that you're worth something as well. That's not selfish, that's trying to actually do stuff even if others don't believe in you.

 

[hian]

Since there's no such thing as true Altruism, I don't see how you can claim any motivations beyond the main one of being able to help people would suffice to say Cloud wasn't selfless enough to succeed when somehow stuff like settling an old grudge that just happens to involve saving the world magically crosses some invisible line that makes it selfless enough to succeed just because. FFVII made a point of subverting expectations and deconstruction tropes when it comes to the various characters so why would it have to automatically assumed to follow arbitrary rules on what motives are met with automatic success or failure?

Because there not being a thing as true altruism in the real world, does not negate the fact that a large portion of the human race still believe in altruism and lets it effect their writing. That's pretty much what I wrote exactly in the last point, yet you make this error in replying.

The "magical line" that's being crossed between Cloud failing in Soldier and Cloud succeeding against Sephiroth, is as I said the difference between joining a corrupt organization that only harms people for a desire to "help someone" (which is just another way of saying "attaining what I want"), as opposed to going your own way being aligned with your own moral principles, whilst also doing good for all of mankind.

If you cannot see that distinction, then the issue here isn't plot of FFVII...

I explained why Cloud's reasoning for joining SOLDIER is for the sake of others and why Tifa not being in any immediate danger doesn't invalidate that. He doesn't want to be unable to help if a situation like that happens again.

Because he's in love with her, and wants her to like him.
Again, if you think there is anything morally equivalent about joining what amounts to the private business version of Nazi Germany because you're in love with a girl, and fighting to stop a megalomaniacal madman from destroying the world because he also happens to have killed your family, friend, and burned down your home-town, then there really is nothing more to be said about this.

Remember that Tifa could've died from that fall. She may have been fine afterwards but Cloud didn't want something like that to happen again, so he tried to get the means to do more if it did.

By joining Shinra. A corporation that, after he joined, would have robbed him of any semblance of free will to act according to his own moral principles, which are clearly contrary to everything he usually stands for.

You seem to think Cloud already wanted to join SOLDIER when that happened but he actually brought that memory up in response to Tifa asking him why he wanted to join SOLDIER to begin with.

And, his response shows he wants to be like Sephiroth, a person he clearly idolizes. He also muses about the nature of his relationship with the villagers (which was sour since before the incident with Tifa). This, at least, suggests prior knowledge.

He specifically mentioned he first heard of them shortly after that incident, not before.

Where? I have no recollection of that.

Incidentally, I might as well point out that Zack joined so he could be a hero and managed to do heroic things without issue.

Moot point. Zack is not Cloud. Why the hell would two different individuals of different backgrounds and personalities be beholden to the same psychological constraints?
Furthermore, Zack could not defeat Sephiroth, and died a horrible death that you might very well call Karma for having spent his life devoted to Shinra.

I also don't see how Cloud's plain as day, explicitly stated desire to be strong enough to help the people he cares about would be suddenly invalidated by wanting to prove himself.

Because the means of how he tries doing that the first time around is by joining Shinra, a corporation that does the exact opposite of what he desires to do.
How is that in any way difficult to understand?

Basic psychology has it that when people keep treating you as worthless, you try and fight against that, not just to prove them wrong but to prove to yourself that you're worth something as well. That's not selfish, that's trying to actually do stuff even if others don't believe in you.

Except Cloud later muses that his social failing with the villages wasn't a result of people treating him like he was worthless - but something he was equally the fault of because he was an arrogant little shit that though the kids of the village were dumb and immature, an opinion he then revises to the exact opposite - him having been dumb and immature.
There was clearly a mutually problem there.

So, that reasoning flies out the window as well.

 

[Tashasaurous]

For all we know regards in how Cloud wanted to join soldier, he possibly either somewhat lied to Tifa to hide his feelings in order to become stronger, or, was fond of Sephiroth and wanted to become like him as well as secretly wanting to become stronger to protect Tifa.

Plus, she did make him promise that if she was in danger after he became soldier, that he would be there in her time in need. Too bad he didn't make it into SOLDIER and was a tad bit too late to save her.

On the other hand, despite that they both probably forgot about it after two years, in AC/C, Cloud did save Tifa on time this time as well as saving Denzel.

 

[Starling]

Are you fucking kidding me? Zack's some 13 year old kid who one day decides to run away from home leaving without a word to his parents, only sending them a letter years later, his only motivation is to become a hero and somehow Cloud, who has a more concrete reason to join that involves helping specific people is too selfish for it to work in his case just because of a difference in upbringing? That's what you seem to be claiming.

On top of that, you think Zack basically deserved to die because he happened to end up working for Shinra? Shinra may be corrupt but they made a point of killing or getting rid of anyone who found out too much about their shadier activities, so most people don't actually know about that stuff when they join. Incidentally, Shinra pretty much rules the world so most people likely work for them directly or indirectly unless they stay in the middle of nowhere, well away from everything Shinra has the slightest interest in.

There are, in fact, good people who end up working for bad people and it'd be awfully callous to condemn them solely on that. It also shouldn't invalidate the reasons they had for joining, nor the good they managed while part of it. Zack was a good person, made it into SOLDIER and managed to help people anyway. Cloud tried to join SOLDIER, didn't make it in, worked for Shinra as an MP instead and it's implied he could've tried and succeed at a later point if Sephiroth hadn't burned Nibelheim to the ground. Would what Cloud got put through be considered karma for his time in Shinra too? No one deserves what he and Zack had to deal with.

Your whole altruism thing is irrelevant when you define it by narrow standards FFVII isn't constrained to. Who are you to say when something is moral enough to grant a character success? Japanese media has plenty of heroic characters who do all kinds of selfish or self-interested things without being penalized for it. Why should FFVII suddenly be required to do so? Not to mention Cloud's main motive for joining SOLDIER is selfless, as much as you try to invalidate that. It was awfully rude of you to go so far as to say I shouldn't have bothered replying, especially as condescendingly as you did.

Cloud having a crush on Tifa doesn't suddenly mean he just wants to impress her and only tried to join SOLDIER for that reason. Tifa's not the only person he cares about and it's about having the means to look out for them more than anything. When you dismiss Cloud wanting to protect Tifa despite her not being in any immediate danger when he leaves, you forget that he tried to keep Tifa from falling in the mountains, wasn't strong enough and ended up falling with her. Tifa was unconscious for a week and they were worried she'd actually die. After that, everyone blamed Cloud for it and he thought it was his fault for not being strong enough to protect her. Then, he heard of Sephiroth and SOLDIER, thought he'd be strong enough to keep that kind of thing from happening again and tried to join. He says in the flashback that he first heard of Sephiroth after the incident, not before.

It seems that anyone looking to join SOLDIER looks up to Sephiroth in some way. However, in Cloud's case at least Sephiroth seems to be an example of someone's he figures is strong enough to protect the people he cares about. Being like Sephiroth isn't his goal, having the strength to help is. Sephiroth's just the first thing anyone thinks of when SOLDIER is mentioned.

As I brought up in my summation of Cloud's way of thinking, there's reason to believe his recounting of past events in relation to his faults tend to be skewed against himself. If you're at all familiar with emotional neglect and what happens to a kid when everyone constantly ignores them when not putting them down for things even when they're not at fault, you'd be more understanding that Cloud wasn't just some little shit. He was basically told things were his fault and that he was worthless until he genuinely believed it and continued to blame himself for things beyond his control as a result of that.

The part where he said he used to think the other kids were stupid is a pretty typical way for a kid to cope with no one wanting to play with them despite their efforts to be liked and included. That's far from a confirmation that Cloud didn't have friends by any fault of his own. With the general exclusion and constant blaming, you then tend to get into a vicious cycle where the victim doesn't like the way they're being treated, everyone else isn't happy about the way said person is reacting and then feel justified because they don't see anything wrong with the way they were treating the person to begin with. Add to that how such a thing affected Cloud's self-esteem and it's not that surprising he still doesn't realize he wasn't just being an idiot for acting that way with not fault being on anyone besides him.

Despite the fantasy setting and probably not really researching the subject, FFVII actually does a good job showing psychological issues, particularly trauma, in a realistic manner that makes the character's all the more relative for reacting to the things they go through in ways actual people would if put through such situations. Thanks to that, even just basic knowledge of psychology can help you better understand the characters.

 

[Tashasaurous]

Whoa, calm down, Starling. No one said Zack deserved to die. In fact, I cried a river in Zack's death scene in Crisis Core and I wouldn't want to wish that on anybody who heroically stood up.

Everyone has reasons in joining SOLDIER and not all of them make it. We're just trying to figure out Cloud's situation, and everybody knows how Zack joined in SOLDIER and why he ran off because he didn't want to spend the rest of his life as a country boy.

We all know that ShinRa had a bunch of bad guys, but those who still thought of others and how they wanted to take safety measures. Mainly it's the Science Department(Hojo and Hollander, the stupid ones), the original President, Scarlet and Heidegger were the most cruel tight-asses that were really the main bad guys. Those in the army just did as they were told like dogs. The Turks still had a little bit of freedom to make up decisions.

Zack and Cloud both didn't know the dark secrets until later on in their career.

But yeah, I get what you're saying.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Except Cloud later muses that his social failing with the villages wasn't a result of people treating him like he was worthless - but something he was equally the fault of because he was an arrogant little shit that though the kids of the village were dumb and immature, an opinion he then revises to the exact opposite - him having been dumb and immature.
There was clearly a mutually problem there.

I just wanted to thank you for pointing this out, as it's so often overlooked. Cloud admits to Tifa (and himself) that he put himself on the outside -- quite literally.

He reveals that he used to look up at the window to Tifa's room, where she and the other kids were, and that they actually invited him in. The one day this happened, though, Tifa ended up getting hurt; her dad blamed Cloud; and Cloud then started picking fights, creating a self-destructive spiral in which he was seen as a problem child and responded to it by acting problematic.

Furthermore, Zack could not defeat Sephiroth, and died a horrible death that you might very well call Karma for having spent his life devoted to Shinra.

I've often thought this was the intended idea. Zack was a good yet naive person who caused an astounding degree of harm, particularly to Wutai, and also sat on his knowledge of all the horrible things Shin-Ra did once he found out.

Really, he didn't become a hero until he gave his life for Cloud. That was the first time he acted on his knowledge of Shin-Ra's nature while knowing it would be to his detriment. His final defense of Cloud was more an act of redemption than a final example of ongoing noble behavior.

 

[Clement Rage]

How can you state as a fact that altruism doesn't exist? There's no way to know one way or the other, short of telepathy.

Like any big organisations, people within Shinra vary. Many don't know about the shady side. Many do. McDonalds has done some messed up stuff, does everyone who works for them or buys from them have responsibility for that?

Individuals within the army have different motivations and levels of freedom. It's not a hivemind.

The Turks have freedom, but don't use it unless their own interests are threatened.

Zack was a good yet naive person who caused an astounding degree of harm, particularly to Wutai, and also sat on his knowledge of all the horrible things Shin-Ra did once he found out.

Hmm? He missed almost all the war.

 

[Roger]

The "magical line" that's being crossed between Cloud failing in Soldier and Cloud succeeding against Sephiroth, is as I said the difference between joining a corrupt organization that only harms people for a desire to "help someone" (which is just another way of saying "attaining what I want"), as opposed to going your own way being aligned with your own moral principles, whilst also doing good for all of mankind.

What Shinra ultimately turned out to be like not withstanding, we're talking about Cloud's mindset, goals and motivation. If he saw Sephiroth as a hero in the Wutai war, then he probably didn't join Shinra and try to get into SOLDIER whilst seeing them as some great evil.

By joining Shinra. A corporation that, after he joined, would have robbed him of any semblance of free will to act according to his own moral principles, which are clearly contrary to everything he usually stands for.

As long as we are taking Crisis Core as canon, that's really not the case.

Moot point. Zack is not Cloud. Why the hell would two different individuals of different backgrounds and personalities be beholden to the same psychological constraints?
Furthermore, Zack could not defeat Sephiroth, and died a horrible death that you might very well call Karma for having spent his life devoted to Shinra.

Zack's not that different from Cloud. He idolised Sephiroth, wanted to be hero, felt that the best way to do this was by joining Shinra/SOLDIER. It's just that he succeeded in getting in. I don't see how everything you said about Shinra doesn't apply to Zack just as much, who we KNOW was a bleeding heart all along, as opposed to Cloud, who outside of Tifa took a considerable amount of character development before caring about the state of the world.

Except Cloud later muses that his social failing with the villages wasn't a result of people treating him like he was worthless - but something he was equally the fault of because he was an arrogant little shit that though the kids of the village were dumb and immature, an opinion he then revises to the exact opposite - him having been dumb and immature.
There was clearly a mutually problem there.

Equally? He got the rap for Tifa's accident, the other kids know that it's not true and they were far more involved then he was, and kept their mouth shut for 7 years. Him being socially awkward before the accident hardly evens things out.

 

[Flare]

I've often thought this was the intended idea. Zack was a good yet naive person who caused an astounding degree of harm, particularly to Wutai, and also sat on his knowledge of all the horrible things Shin-Ra did once he found out.

Really, he didn't become a hero until he gave his life for Cloud. That was the first time he acted on his knowledge of Shin-Ra's nature while knowing it would be to his detriment. His final defense of Cloud was more an act of redemption than a final example of ongoing noble behavior.

I don't really agree on him causing an 'astounding' amount of harm (as Clement says he was only in Wutai for literally one mission during 8 years of war so, he didn't cause much harm to that country TBH).
He is definitely more naive in the beginning as far as Shinra goes; it's not until he changes his hairstyle where his naivety is gone and he now knows all the things Shinra is capable of. For example, he goes from encouraging Cloud to join SOLDIER, to outright telling him not to, and that it's a den of monsters. You can see where he's gone back on the idea that SOLDIER is this grandeur thing to be a part of and sees Shinra for what it truly is.

As for 'sitting on this knowledge once he finds out', what exactly is he expected to do with said knowledge? By that time the only resistance to Shinra, the old Avalanche, was revealed to be just as shitty of a 'organization'. There's nothing to really oppose Shinra with. It's not until the Nibelheim Incident goes down, and he's captured for 4 years, that he finally breaks free and is 'free' of Shinra. And we know how that turned out, the whole fucking army goes after him and manages to kill him.

Also yeah, I never thought of Zack as being a hero like he wanted to be until he does his final stand against Shinra. Well, that and going up against Sephiroth at Nibelheim, I also consider that heroic, as he went against Sephiroth knowing he probably didn't have a chance to win.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

How can you state as a fact that altruism doesn't exist? There's no way to know one way or the other, short of telepathy.

The concept of acting out of concern for others while having no self-interest in the matter is a contradiction in terms since the person performing said action would feel guilt for not taking action, or because they feel such an overwhelming or persistent compulsion to act that they're unable to be at peace until they've done so.

So, yes, technically, altruism does not exist, as it's impossible to separate the person performing the action from any investment in the outcome.

That being said -- dwelling on whether this means there's no such thing as a good person (where discussion of this concept usually ventures) is an insipid waste of time. If a person tries to do things for the benefit of others, they're a good person. End of sermon.

Zack was a good yet naive person who caused an astounding degree of harm, particularly to Wutai, and also sat on his knowledge of all the horrible things Shin-Ra did once he found out.

Hmm? He missed almost all the war.

I don't really agree on him causing an 'astounding' amount of harm (as Clement says he was only in Wutai for literally one mission during 8 years of war so, he didn't cause much harm to that country TBH).

He also dealt the decisive blow to Wutai -- after some of their warriors explained their position to him and asked him to join them, no less -- for which they held him personally responsible, and later went on many missions to ensure they remained suppressed. Wutai hated him for the rest of his life and made attempts to assassinate him over that crap.

As for 'sitting on this knowledge once he finds out', what exactly is he expected to do with said knowledge? By that time the only resistance to Shinra, the old Avalanche, was revealed to be just as shitty of a 'organization'. There's nothing to really oppose Shinra with.

You basically just took a dump on the objective of the cast of the original game. =P

One could just reword that question to ask what Barret was supposed to do with his knowledge of the planet's predicament. Or Red XIII. Or even Cid and Reeve.

Doing nothing would have been better? And in Zack's case, doing nothing while also continuing to take orders was the noble course?

For that matter, it's not like he was a superhuman (even by the standards of other superhumans) with occasional access to the executives or anything.

Zack's not that different from Cloud. He idolised Sephiroth, wanted to be hero, felt that the best way to do this was by joining Shinra/SOLDIER. It's just that he succeeded in getting in. I don't see how everything you said about Shinra doesn't apply to Zack just as much, who we KNOW was a bleeding heart all along, as opposed to Cloud, who outside of Tifa took a considerable amount of character development before caring about the state of the world.

You're talking about DisC1loud. That doesn't really apply to the original -- at least not beyond his misguided perception that he would be cool if he was less compassionate.

Equally? He got the rap for Tifa's accident, the other kids know that it's not true and they were far more involved then he was, and kept their mouth shut for 7 years. Him being socially awkward before the accident hardly evens things out.

How were the other kids more involved than Cloud? They were all with Tifa in her room before she took off into the mountains, and the others turned back before Cloud and Tifa fell. No one but Cloud knows/remembers what happened, and he was so busy blaming himself anyway that he wasn't going to defend himself/put the blame on the person who got hurt.

 

[Starling]

Whoa, calm down, Starling. No one said Zack deserved to die. In fact, I cried a river in Zack's death scene in Crisis Core and I wouldn't want to wish that on anybody who heroically stood up.

Everyone has reasons in joining SOLDIER and not all of them make it. We're just trying to figure out Cloud's situation, and everybody knows how Zack joined in SOLDIER and why he ran off because he didn't want to spend the rest of his life as a country boy.

We all know that ShinRa had a bunch of bad guys, but those who still thought of others and how they wanted to take safety measures. Mainly it's the Science Department(Hojo and Hollander, the stupid ones), the original President, Scarlet and Heidegger were the most cruel tight-asses that were really the main bad guys. Those in the army just did as they were told like dogs. The Turks still had a little bit of freedom to make up decisions.

Zack and Cloud both didn't know the dark secrets until later on in their career.

But yeah, I get what you're saying.

When someone says someone's death can be considered karma, it basically is saying that they deserved to die for some wrongdoing or other. The whole point of karma is that you had it coming, good or bad. The thing is, the OG played Zack's death as something cruel and unnecessary, much like with Aerith. Both of them tried to do something they felt needed to be done and ended up getting killed. Zack's death wasn't supposed to be any more of a heroic sacrifice than Aerith's, but to show death in a more realistic manner rather than to say it was the right thing to do as if they were expecting to die like that.

Regarding the Turks, it seems most of them didn't actually get much say in joining, if the BC profiles are anything to go by. Since they're so deep into all the shady stuff, they can't even leave without having to go into hiding while Shinra tries to hint them down to keep their secrets. They know better than anyone what'll happen if they don't go along with it and are aware even they aren't untouchable.

@Tres: please fix your quote so it shows the correct name.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

@Tres: please fix your quote so it shows the correct name.

I'm not sure which quote you mean. I double checked; they all look correct to me.

 

[The Blue Bandit]

Without getting too deep into it (by which I mean a complete rewrite from the ground up with a totally different storyline), one of the things I'd like to see done a little differently is the way Tifa deals with Cloud's relapse. I know she's always been the supportive "almost-girlfriend" and seems to have boundless patience and good cheer through much of the OG, but at some point even Tifa would get annoyed with Cloud's crap and give him an earful. Maybe raking him over the coals would be a bit too much for her, but at the very least I think she would have taken a much more active role by that point in trying to help him overcome depression/PTSD rather than letting him just kind of wander around aimlessly and withdraw into himself.

 

[Flare]

He also dealt the decisive blow to Wutai -- after some of their warriors explained their position to him and asked him to join them, no less -- for which they held him personally responsible, and later went on many missions to ensure they remained suppressed. Wutai hated him for the rest of his life and made attempts to assassinate him over that crap.

He did help end the war, yes. Also don't forget he still didn't know the inner workings of Shinra when offered a position (though he might not've accepted anyway, who knows).
he also let that officer live, which directly caused several of the assassination attempts made on his life. Zack spared that guy's life knowing such attempts would happen.

You basically just took a dump on the objective of the cast of the original game. =P

One could just reword that question to ask what Barret was supposed to do with his knowledge of the planet's predicament. Or Red XIII. Or even Cid and Reeve.

Doing nothing would have been better? And in Zack's case, doing nothing while also continuing to take orders was the noble course?

For that matter, it's not like he was a superhuman (even by the standards of other superhumans) with occasional access to the executives or anything.

Not dumping on the entire cast of the original game. Easier to start a resistance when you have a group and you're undercover/no one knows about you, unlike Zack who's one man and is widely known and being chased by Shinra at the moment of his escape. Even Zack seems to know he can only run for so long, and when he makes his stand he ends up getting killed anyway.

I don't see much else Zack could've done, to be honest. He escapes being experimented on and goes to finish Genesis, and shortly after is ambushed by the entire Shinra Army.

But I'm guessing you mean when he became disillusioned by the company before the Nibelhim Incident?
In that case, I think the question is "Should I oppose this bad thing even if it makes me die?" Not many people can ask that question of themselves and answer yes, especially if the outcome is uncertain. Who wants to risk death when it might not even mean anything afterwards? Takes a lot of courage to do that.
I'm not saying Zack did the right thing all the time, he was obviously involved in some shit, whether voluntarily or not, simply by being a SOLDIER.

Also, please tell me what influence Zack had on the higher ups. Lazard disappeared and wasn't the man he claimed to be, Sephiroth wasn't even gung-ho about disbanding until right before Nibelhiem (and even then it was just a thought; if Sephiroth and Zack banded together to stop Shinra, holy hell that could've been possible, yes). Only other 'higher ups' Zack knew was Tseng that I can think of. And Tseng doesn't have much power either.
And Zack was very superhuman, of course. He still gets killed by the army though

 

[Tashasaurous]

When someone says someone's death can be considered karma, it basically is saying that they deserved to die for some wrongdoing or other. The whole point of karma is that you had it coming, good or bad. The thing is, the OG played Zack's death as something cruel and unnecessary, much like with Aerith. Both of them tried to do something they felt needed to be done and ended up getting killed. Zack's death wasn't supposed to be any more of a heroic sacrifice than Aerith's, but to show death in a more realistic manner rather than to say it was the right thing to do as if they were expecting to die like that.

Regarding the Turks, it seems most of them didn't actually get much say in joining, if the BC profiles are anything to go by. Since they're so deep into all the shady stuff, they can't even leave without having to go into hiding while Shinra tries to hint them down to keep their secrets. They know better than anyone what'll happen if they don't go along with it and are aware even they aren't untouchable.

Fair point, but I wouldn't really call it karma in Zack's case. Cruel and twisted fates happened and we all know that the President is such an ass, only caring about himself and his, (gestures fingers) "Beloved" company, he doesn't even care about his own son, and even Rufus knows his old man is an ass(though Rufus wasn't much better, but at least he got to tell Heidegger to quit his, and I quote, "Stupid horse laugh").

I know that the Turks weren't allowed to leave, but unlike SOLDIER who are just told to fight, they investigate and yes the other things they do are evil, but that doesn't mean they are evil. Tseng had secretly tasked the Turks to find Zack and Cloud and bring them alive without the President knowing while they too were in trouble due to Veld.

The fault was really all in Hojo, Hollander and Fuhito-all three nasty and evil scientests who all hate humanity, whether said humanity are innocent, they don't care. They(at least Hojo and Fuhito) would rather have the world dead to their own liking, and everyone else all unknowingly fell victum to their secret evil plots.

Zack just didn't know and he and Cloud both fell victim. But hey, at least Zack didn't brag on about becoming a hero and when the army arrived, he somewhat knew he wouldn't make it back and would at least keep Cloud safe. Not like Snow in FFXIII who kept annoyingly brag on being a hero and only managed to do something right for once 500 years later.

With Aerith, she knew that Sephiroth would end up killing her despite her promises, and she still smiled even after her death.

The good thing that did happen is that(I don't mind Rufus, to be honest, because he's one of those villians I can tolorate) the original president, Hojo(though he survived by making a copy of himself, that disgusting monster in human disguise), Scarlet and Heidegger all died, freeing everyone, including the Turks who, despite that he nearly killed them, trust Rufus who also saved them from the President's wrath.

Even the BC Turks are no longer hunted down, but because of the betrayal of the president, decided to stick to their lives in exile, and had returned to aid the remaining comrades(and Gun's sister Elena) to evacuate the Turks.

Heck, even Reno knew that Shinra came to an end and by player's choice in the original game(I've always liked this choice better than the other one where they do fight), even Cloud knew there was no point in fighting the Turks.

But the point is, I don't think Zack suffered in a way of karma. I mean, he succeeded in becoming SOLDIER 1st Class and did manage to save some lives. Snow could only save a very few(Hope for example), while the other lives he saved were still doomed to die in the end.

But hey, at least Zack and Aerith both died in doing something right, though I wish they both survived. Their deaths had me in tears. It was the timing that was the main problem.

...Am I going around in circles? If I am, then, sorry.

 

[Roger]

You're talking about DisC1loud. That doesn't really apply to the original -- at least not beyond his misguided perception that he would be cool if he was less compassionate.

It was still character development for any version of Cloud, joining AVALANCHE for the wrong reasons, befriending it's members, getting a greater understanding of the Planet's plight at Cosmo Canyon ectera. He still went through those events. Cloud might not have needed any of it, that's possible, but with Zack we know, we know he wanted to do what's right for everyone basically from day one. And it didn't deter him when applying for SOLDIER. Blaming Cloud's failed application to SOLDIER on him having second thoughts because of Shinra's shadiness doesn't work.

How were the other kids more involved than Cloud? They were all with Tifa in her room before she took off into the mountains, and the others turned back before Cloud and Tifa fell. No one but Cloud knows/remembers what happened, and he was so busy blaming himself anyway that he wasn't going to defend himself/put the blame on the person who got hurt.

They all went up the mountain with Tifa, because it was her idea to see her mother, without Cloud, contrary to the conclusion the people that found her came to. Tifa herself never found out even these most basic facts about the incident and she hung out those those guys, not Cloud, however eager he may or may not have been to assign blame to himself when asked about it.

 

[Clement Rage]

How can you state as a fact that altruism doesn't exist? There's no way to know one way or the other, short of telepathy.

The concept of acting out of concern for others while having no self-interest in the matter is a contradiction in terms since the person performing said action would feel guilt for not taking action, or because they feel such an overwhelming or persistent compulsion to act that they're unable to be at peace until they've done so.

Deriving a benefit from an action in itself does not invalidate altruism, if alternative reasons are sufficient to prompt action. It doesn't make it less altruistic to feel good about saving someone from drowning, if you would have done it anyway even if you didn't feel good about it. Of course, it's impossible to determine the true motivations behind an any action, but unknowable is not the same thing as non existent.

He also dealt the decisive blow to Wutai -- after some of their warriors explained their position to him and asked him to join them, no less -- for which they held him personally responsible, and later went on many missions to ensure they remained suppressed. Wutai hated him for the rest of his life and made attempts to assassinate him over that crap.

Decisive blow? I always got the impression Wutai was on the ropes anyway.

Those optional missions? Zack doesn't have to do them, you choose to or not as the player. So those are on the player, not him.

Most of his compulsory missions are acting on clear and present threats to innocent life, like stopping active murders on the streets of Midgar/Junon, attacking a group that has just executed an entire village.

For that matter, it's not like he was a superhuman (even by the standards of other superhumans) with occasional access to the executives or anything.

When do we meet any executives in the game? By the time he figures out what's going on, Lazard is gone. He meets Hojo once, but doesn't know what we know about him until much later.

Regarding the Turks, it seems most of them didn't actually get much say in joining, if the BC profiles are anything to go by. Since they're so deep into all the shady stuff, they can't even leave without having to go into hiding while Shinra tries to hint them down to keep their secrets. They know better than anyone what'll happen if they don't go along with it and are aware even they aren't untouchable.

Not untouchable, but they wriggle out of or defy many, many orders across all their screentime, few of which have real consequences.

Not like Snow in FFXIII who kept annoyingly brag on being a hero and only managed to do something right for once 500 years later.

He does that on purpose so the people around him don't lose hope about their shit situation. He's a lot more admirable than people realise.

 

[Starling]

When someone says someone's death can be considered karma, it basically is saying that they deserved to die for some wrongdoing or other. The whole point of karma is that you had it coming, good or bad. The thing is, the OG played Zack's death as something cruel and unnecessary, much like with Aerith. Both of them tried to do something they felt needed to be done and ended up getting killed. Zack's death wasn't supposed to be any more of a heroic sacrifice than Aerith's, but to show death in a more realistic manner rather than to say it was the right thing to do as if they were expecting to die like that.

Regarding the Turks, it seems most of them didn't actually get much say in joining, if the BC profiles are anything to go by. Since they're so deep into all the shady stuff, they can't even leave without having to go into hiding while Shinra tries to hint them down to keep their secrets. They know better than anyone what'll happen if they don't go along with it and are aware even they aren't untouchable.

Fair point, but I wouldn't really call it karma in Zack's case. Cruel and twisted fates happened and we all know that the President is such an ass, only caring about himself and his, (gestures fingers) "Beloved" company, he doesn't even care about his own son, and even Rufus knows his old man is an ass(though Rufus wasn't much better, but at least he got to tell Heidegger to quit his, and I quote, "Stupid horse laugh").

Just to be clear, my whole post about the Zack apparently deserves to die thing the other day was a response to hian's post and what he said in it. I'm still stuck on my phone and the inability to copy paste, along with having to type everything in one go really goes against my usual way of making posts, so I ended up having to leave out the quotations so I wouldn't have to start everything over. In short, I wasn't accusing you of thinking Zack deserved to die so much as pointing it out in what hian had said.

I know that the Turks weren't allowed to leave, but unlike SOLDIER who are just told to fight, they investigate and yes the other things they do are evil, but that doesn't mean they are evil. Tseng had secretly tasked the Turks to find Zack and Cloud and bring them alive without the President knowing while they too were in trouble due to Veld.

I wasn't claiming the Turks were evil, just pointing out they didn't really choose their current profession. They're not the best people out there but they do still have morals and lines they won't cross.

The fault was really all in Hojo, Hollander and Fuhito-all three nasty and evil scientests who all hate humanity, whether said humanity are innocent, they don't care. They(at least Hojo and Fuhito) would rather have the world dead to their own liking, and everyone else all unknowingly fell victim to their secret evil plots.

The blame also falls quite sizeably on President Shinra, who pretty much made a corrupt system where sociopaths could thrive and do just about anything they want with little to no repercussions, not at all bothered by what it would take to achieve his goals so long as he got what he wanted. Sephiroth likely stabbed for revenge as much as he did to make a point. Past him Hollander and Fuhito rather pale in comparison to Hojo atrocities.

Zack just didn't know and he and Cloud both fell victim. But hey, at least Zack didn't brag on about becoming a hero and when the army arrived, he somewhat knew he wouldn't make it back and would at least keep Cloud safe. Not like Snow in FFXIII who kept annoyingly brag on being a hero and only managed to do something right for once 500 years later.

With Aerith, she knew that Sephiroth would end up killing her despite her promises, and she still smiled even after her death.

Aerith didn't know she was going to die, she just thought she had to go off on her own. With the whole explanation of what they wanted to convey with her death, it's clear they didn't want it to be a heroic sacrifice at all, but rather a sudden, tragic and unnecessary death. Zack's death was much the same, which is why I generally prefer the OG version and its tone rather than how CC plays it up like he goes out in a blaze of glory. Zack wasn't planning on dying either and it wasn't supposed to be a heroic sacrifice. He was just trying to survive and get back to Aerith, got backed into a corner and couldn't get out of it alive, no way of knowing if Cloud would be alright or get killed right after.

The good thing that did happen is that(I don't mind Rufus, to be honest, because he's one of those villians I can tolorate) the original president, Hojo(though he survived by making a copy of himself, that disgusting monster in human disguise), Scarlet and Heidegger all died, freeing everyone, including the Turks who, despite that he nearly killed them, trust Rufus who also saved them from the President's wrath.

Even the BC Turks are no longer hunted down, but because of the betrayal of the president, decided to stick to their lives in exile, and had returned to aid the remaining comrades(and Gun's sister Elena) to evacuate the Turks.

Heck, even Reno knew that Shinra came to an end and by player's choice in the original game(I've always liked this choice better than the other one where they do fight), even Cloud knew there was no point in fighting the Turks.

The Turks have to look out for each other given their profession, so they likely got fed up with the President as he got increasingly unreasonable in their regard. Then they almost get killed preserving their interests while Shinra doesn't know what's good for it anymore and Rufus recognizes their value enough to spare them. Rufus also spent enough time with them to practically be an honorary Turk. Chances are that's how he got some of his skills. His methods are pretty suited to the Turks and he clearly earned their loyalty. As for the BC Turks, they likely put together an Intel network and do some mercenary work suited to their skills, investigations and such while being particular about who they offer their services to.

But the point is, I don't think Zack suffered in a way of karma. I mean, he succeeded in becoming SOLDIER 1st Class and did manage to save some lives. Snow could only save a very few(Hope for example), while the other lives he saved were still doomed to die in the end.

But hey, at least Zack and Aerith both died in doing something right, though I wish they both survived. Their deaths had me in tears. It was the timing that was the main problem.

...Am I going around in circles? If I am, then, sorry.

Like I said above, Zack and Aerith's deaths weren't necessary to accomplish anything, but rather a tragic turn of events. Aerith is fortunate ate enough to have summoned holy before dying and Zack's fortunate that Cloud managed to get by somewhat after his death. Both cases rather narrowly avoided everything going further to he'll one way to another.

@Tres: you probably checked the post after the one I was talking about. You quoted hian but put my name on it.

 

[Tashasaurous]

Just to be clear, my whole post about the Zack apparently deserves to die thing the other day was a response to hian's post and what he said in it. I'm still stuck on my phone and the inability to copy paste, along with having to type everything in one go really goes against my usual way of making posts, so I ended up having to leave out the quotations so I wouldn't have to start everything over. In short, I wasn't accusing you of thinking Zack deserved to die so much as pointing it out in what hian had said.

I guess so. How long has your computer or tablet been not working?

I didn't say you were accusing me, because I'm aware of that. I was just trying to calm you down when you exclaimed and asked why you even borthered responding. I was just trying to help you out and calm you.

Plus, in that response, there's really no point in trying to say how Zack should die or not, because he's dead. But if anyone really deversed to die, it's President ShinRa, Scarlet, Heidegger and Hojo. They're the top four and main enemies of the Planet along with Jenova(wonder who would voice her in the Remake?).

I wasn't claiming the Turks were evil, just pointing out they didn't really choose their current profession. They're not the best people out there but they do still have morals and lines they won't cross.

I know. Though I only know a few things on how some Turks were apppointed-like how Cissnei was brought in from an Orphange(though no one really knows how her parents died), how Rod tried to steal a bike and ended up arrested by Reno, and then later recruited by Veld, and Legend...well, everyone knows about that guy. Oh yes, and then there's Elena's sister who was appointed after graduating...I think.

But it wasn't really their fault the stupid President and top three Boards only cared about money and world domintation(or in Hojo's case, world destruction). Personally, I think Reno was the way he was in the OG because he lost so many comrades in the BC Turks and only had Tseng and Rude left and Reno probably had mentally grieved but kept it well hidden until the 2nd Epilogue of BC and in AC/C.

The blame also falls quite sizeably on President Shinra, who pretty much made a corrupt system where sociopaths could thrive and do just about anything they want with little to no repercussions, not at all bothered by what it would take to achieve his goals so long as he got what he wanted. Sephiroth likely stabbed for revenge as much as he did to make a point. Past him Hollander and Fuhito rather pale in comparison to Hojo atrocities.

Oh yes, without a doubt. Heck, he wanted an army of Sephiroths before things went horribly wrong, and yet he still couldn't care because he obviously had a plan B somewhere.

The only thing I can be grateful for Sephiroth is that he killed Rufus's father.

I think Hollander's an complete idiot and that's why he wasn't the head of the Science department. Fuhito, well, he was a threat that he was the opposite crazy over Hojo, but if Zinconide had been completed and destroyed the world, then Sephiroth would've died as well. So the entire thing is upside down.

Aerith didn't know she was going to die, she just thought she had to go off on her own. With the whole explanation of what they wanted to convey with her death, it's clear they didn't want it to be a heroic sacrifice at all, but rather a sudden, tragic and unnecessary death. Zack's death was much the same, which is why I generally prefer the OG version and its tone rather than how CC plays it up like he goes out in a blaze of glory. Zack wasn't planning on dying either and it wasn't supposed to be a heroic sacrifice. He was just trying to survive and get back to Aerith, got backed into a corner and couldn't get out of it alive, no way of knowing if Cloud would be alright or get killed right after.

Well, too late to tell her that now, because she's dead too. And, well, they changed the storyline slightly in the Compilation from the original game, and without a doubt, they'll do it again with the Remake, especially with the new story content they'll be adding.

Plus, it wasn't really Zack's or Cloud's fault, and Hojo only saw Aerith as a toy, not a human or a living being. But at least Zack and Aerith are together again in the Lifestream.

The Turks have to look out for each other given their profession, so they likely got fed up with the President as he got increasingly unreasonable in their regard. Then they almost get killed preserving their interests while Shinra doesn't know what's good for it anymore and Rufus recognizes their value enough to spare them. Rufus also spent enough time with them to practically be an honorary Turk. Chances are that's how he got some of his skills. His methods are pretty suited to the Turks and he clearly earned their loyalty. As for the BC Turks, they likely put together an Intel network and do some mercenary work suited to their skills, investigations and such while being particular about who they offer their services to.

Like I said, the President's an ass, only caring about himself and world domination. He can happily throw away lives as he pleases, including the Turks despite them being loyal, and that's why he's such an easy target because even most of the ShinRa staff(except for Scarlet and Heidegger) hate him, but have no say to reveal that.

I think Rufus is a bit more like his mother before she died, and because the Turks look out for each other and trust him further than the other exces, that's why he was trained along side them and that's why the four remaining Turks chose to stay with him, despite for the bad things he did to them, he also saved them.

Like I said, I don't mind Rufus. He's a villian I can tolerate. Call me crazy, but I kind of like him a little.

Like I said above, Zack and Aerith's deaths weren't necessary to accomplish anything, but rather a tragic turn of events. Aerith is fortunate enough to have summoned holy before dying and Zack's fortunate that Cloud managed to get by somewhat after his death. Both cases rather narrowly avoided everything going further to he'll one way to another.

I guess that's a good point. Too bad their deaths hit Cloud hard to make him an easy target in being confused due to the Jenova/Sephiroth cells-After Zack's death, Cloud loses his memories of him and his memories end up merging with Zack's ones relating to Sephiroth, and the death of Aerith gives Sephiroth/Jenova a bit more control over Cloud.

In the end, neither Zack nor Aerith deserved to die, but they did anyway. I just know those scenes in the remake will be twice has heart-stopping than in the original or in Crisis Core(in Zack's case).

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Not dumping on the entire cast of the original game. Easier to start a resistance when you have a group and you're undercover/no one knows about you, unlike Zack who's one man and is widely known and being chased by Shinra at the moment of his escape.

He wasn't being chased at all at the many moments of his continuing to take orders, though. =P

But I'm guessing you mean when he became disillusioned by the company before the Nibelhim Incident?

Yep.

Also, please tell me what influence Zack had on the higher ups.

The strength to influence their windpipes to take on a crushed shape.

Lazard disappeared and wasn't the man he claimed to be, Sephiroth wasn't even gung-ho about disbanding until right before Nibelhiem (and even then it was just a thought; if Sephiroth and Zack banded together to stop Shinra, holy hell that could've been possible, yes). Only other 'higher ups' Zack knew was Tseng that I can think of. And Tseng doesn't have much power either.

The point isn't that Zack would necessarily have succeeded with revolt or even that he did wrong by sticking around -- the point is he didn't do much of anything with it. There's no indication that he planned to wait for a chance to take out Hojo or the President, that he was going to secretly work to undermine them or anything of the sort. Like it didn't even occur to him as a possibility.

We see him become disillusioned about the idea of Shin-Ra improving people's lives maybe, but we don't see him thinking about leaving or doing anything with the stuff he's learned.

And Zack was very superhuman, of course. He still gets killed by the army though

Well, yeah. And trying to bring down the President -- or any of the executives -- may well have ended up the same way. That's why it's called a suicide mission.

Cruel and twisted fates happened and we all know that the President is such an ass, only caring about himself and his, (gestures fingers) "Beloved" company, he doesn't even care about his own son, and even Rufus knows his old man is an ass ...

Giving credit where it's due -- and he doesn't deserve much -- the point is emphasized in Before Crisis that he did care about Rufus. It's also remarked upon in Episode:Shin-Ra of On the Way to a Smile that Rufus's birthday was always a precious date to him.

Zack just didn't know and he and Cloud both fell victim. But hey, at least Zack didn't brag on about becoming a hero and when the army arrived, he somewhat knew he wouldn't make it back and would at least keep Cloud safe. Not like Snow in FFXIII who kept annoyingly brag on being a hero and only managed to do something right for once 500 years later.

You played a different FFXIII than me. I remember Snow's whole time in Palumpolum being a thoroughly humbling experience filled with regret, penitence and acting like a genuine hero.

It was still character development for any version of Cloud, joining AVALANCHE for the wrong reasons, befriending it's members, getting a greater understanding of the Planet's plight at Cosmo Canyon ectera. He still went through those events. Cloud might not have needed any of it, that's possible, but with Zack we know, we know he wanted to do what's right for everyone basically from day one. And it didn't deter him when applying for SOLDIER. Blaming Cloud's failed application to SOLDIER on him having second thoughts because of Shinra's shadiness doesn't work.

I'm 99 percent sure that wasn't hian's point at all, but I'll leave that to him.

How were the other kids more involved than Cloud? They were all with Tifa in her room before she took off into the mountains, and the others turned back before Cloud and Tifa fell. No one but Cloud knows/remembers what happened, and he was so busy blaming himself anyway that he wasn't going to defend himself/put the blame on the person who got hurt.

They all went up the mountain with Tifa, because it was her idea to see her mother, without Cloud, contrary to the conclusion the people that found her came to. Tifa herself never found out even these most basic facts about the incident and she hung out those those guys, not Cloud, however eager he may or may not have been to assign blame to himself when asked about it.

That doesn't answer the question: How were they more involved than Cloud?

They were all in Tifa's room (the first day Cloud was there). They all went to the mountain. Only Cloud and Tifa were there when they fell.

Deriving a benefit from an action in itself does not invalidate altruism, if alternative reasons are sufficient to prompt action. It doesn't make it less altruistic to feel good about saving someone from drowning, if you would have done it anyway even if you didn't feel good about it. Of course, it's impossible to determine the true motivations behind an any action, but unknowable is not the same thing as non existent.

Different understandings do get attached to the word -- but as it's usually discussed in this academic consideration, the very fact of some internal process compelling one to act invalidates the concept.

Some would argue that taking action being the instinct for some means altruism does still exist. Others would respond that plenty of instincts are self-serving, and that some internal processes are so rapid as to occur before we realize we've thought about them.

It's as pointless a consideration to get hung up on as whether God can create a rock that can't be lifted, though, or whether the size of the universe makes us insignificant. Who cares if we can't establish altruism? Whether it exists isn't going to accomplish -- or end -- any of the things we consider altruistic.

I've seen some folks get very, very threatened and angry by this discussion, and the idea of losing that notion of inherent goodness. What an absolute waste of time.

Decisive blow? I always got the impression Wutai was on the ropes anyway.

Not according to the official timelines. The war had dragged on as a stalemate for a while until Shin-Ra sent most of SOLDIER to wipe them out all at once -- only for Genesis to desert and take those SOLDIERs with him.

Zack, Angeal and Sephiroth were then sent to strike a more nuanced but no less crippling blow.

Those optional missions? Zack doesn't have to do them, you choose to or not as the player. So those are on the player, not him.

Like Yuffie and Vincent? =P

@Tres: you probably checked the post after the one I was talking about. You quoted hian but put my name on it.

Fixed now.

 

[Roger]

I'm 99 percent sure that wasn't hian's point at all, but I'll leave that to him.

How not? The argument was about why Cloud failed the get into SOLDIER. hian felt that Cloud's true strength lies when he is doing things for more then his self-interest. And serving a corrupt, greedy, oppressive, fascist corporation that strips it's employees of it's free will doesn't work for that. But true or not Cloud probably didn't believe any of these things when he was applying to SOLDIER so it shouldn't matter towards the success or failure of his application. And if these facts about Shinra should have been perfectly evident too 14-year old Cloud then asking why it didn't work that way for 14-year old Zack, who also wanted to be a hero and is at least just as selfless as Cloud, is a valid question.

That doesn't answer the question: How were they more involved than Cloud?

They were all in Tifa's room (the first day Cloud was there). They all went to the mountain. Only Cloud and Tifa were there when they fell.

Cloud wasn't in Tifa's room, he was outside. Tifa, in her room, tells these other children that she wants to see her mother and they decide to go up the dangerous mountain, Cloud follows in their wake. They ditch Tifa halfway up the mountain. After Tifa's fall she goes into a coma, Cloud is blamed for the whole thing, the adults not knowing anyone else was involved at all. And after Tifa wakes up she doesn't remember any of it and no one tells her about for the next 9 years.

So saying Cloud is equally immature for not liking the guys that let him take the fall and never tell Tifa in all the years they are friends as much as these kids are for not liking the kid they know is disliked by the rest of village for at least somewhat inaccurate reasons, something they don't have the courage to even put into a letter, much tell Tifa about directly doesn't hold up. They're all immature but saying everything is equal and mutual between them is unfair, Cloud has sound reasons based in reality for his negative opinions.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I'm 99 percent sure that wasn't hian's point at all, but I'll leave that to him.

How not? The argument was about why Cloud failed the get into SOLDIER. hian felt that Cloud's true strength lies when he is doing things for more then his self-interest. And serving a corrupt, greedy, oppressive, fascist corporation that strips it's employees of it's free will doesn't work for that. But true or not Cloud probably didn't believe any of these things when he was applying to SOLDIER so it shouldn't matter towards the success or failure of his application. And if these facts about Shinra should have been perfectly evident too 14-year old Cloud then asking why it didn't work that way for 14-year old Zack, who also wanted to be a hero and is at least just as selfless as Cloud, is a valid question.

But hian never said anything about "these facts about Shinra should have been perfectly evident to 14-year-old Cloud." He explained the argument he was making (very clearly if you ask me), and addressed that question about Zack (and every other Shin-Ra employee) while doing so:

----
"I've always gotten the impression that Cloud not making it in Soldier was a specific narrative device playing into the 'people are only strong when they fight for what they believe in/other people' trope that is so common in Japanese shonen media.

Cloud is clearly strong enough to do nearly impossible feats when he's doing it for the sake of other people (surviving the fall from Mt.Nibel searching for Tifa as a child with only a few scratches, or beating Sephiroth in the Nibelheim incident, or at the end of the game), whilst young Cloud joining Soldier was doing it purely out of self-interest.

So, I think it's strongly thematically implied that Cloud fails Soldier because he doesn't cut it, and the reason he doesn't cut it is because he can't realize his potential in pursuit of self-interest (which is an extremely typical Japanese way of thinking)."

"Finally comparing Cloud to other Shinra employees is completely inane in this context. The lesson isn't that 'people can't join Shinra and Soldier out of self-interest', which they clearly can.
The lesson is 'Cloud, who is the main character and probably the strongest character in the FF7 universe, can only bring out that power for the sake of other people' which furthers the theme of collectivism and solidarity which is common in Japan.
Ultimately, Shinra loses, and ultimately everyone who were in it only for their own sakes lost out in the end of the game.
Cloud not making it within that morally bankrupt and selfish system despite being stronger than the strongest of the soldiers within it is a moral statement on part of the writers."
----

This is framed as a literary analysis, not an in-universe discussion. Zack or whoever else can be as strong as their stories call for them to be regardless of their knowledge of Shin-Ra's activities because different themes are at work with them than what was going on with Cloud's personal story.

If you find this an unsatisfactory answer, it's because you and hian are discussing two different things.

For the record, the closest he said to what you're saying he meant was "Cloud would not have been able to manifest or prove that strength in the environment of Soldier, since they'd never have him fight for things that actually matter to him" -- which is still not saying anything close to "these facts about Shinra should have been perfectly evident to 14-year-old Cloud."

Remember, what he was talking about is how a theme took form within the story.

That doesn't answer the question: How were they more involved than Cloud?

They were all in Tifa's room (the first day Cloud was there). They all went to the mountain. Only Cloud and Tifa were there when they fell.

Cloud wasn't in Tifa's room, he was outside. Tifa, in her room, tells these other children that she wants to see her mother and they decide to go up the dangerous mountain, Cloud follows in their wake. They ditch Tifa halfway up the mountain. After Tifa's fall she goes into a coma, Cloud is blamed for the whole thing, the adults not knowing anyone else was involved at all. And after Tifa wakes up she doesn't remember any of it and no one tells her about for the next 9 years.

The point is made that it was the first time Cloud was in her room, and she hadn't even realized it. Cloud's subconscious explicitly tells Tifa:

Tifa: "My room?"
Cloud: "It was my first time there."
Tifa: "Was... it?"
Cloud: "I only used to look up at it from outside."

Cue the flashback of little Cloud approaching Tifa's house, one of the other kids asking Tifa "You think he wants to come in?" and then little Cloud walking "downward" (on the screen) out of view of the window, meaning he walked to the door and came in.

Tifa then asks "Was that the first time you came into my room?"

This strikes me as fairly straightforward.

So saying Cloud is equally immature for not liking the guys that let him take the fall and never tell Tifa in all the years they are friends as much as these kids are for not liking the kid they know is disliked by the rest of village for at least somewhat inaccurate reasons, something they don't have the courage to even put into a letter, much tell Tifa about directly doesn't hold up. They're all immature but saying everything is equal and mutual between them is unfair, Cloud has sound reasons based in reality for his negative opinions.

They're all immature, yes, and the other kids should have spoken up. My point was that they weren't there when Cloud and Tifa fell, so they ultimately didn't know why she fell. All they would have known is that their friend was in a coma, all the adults in their world were blaming Cloud for it, and Cloud himself suddenly took to being a little shit who was trying to beat them up.

They were all kids. None of them were criminal masterminds.

 

[Roger]

They're all immature, yes, and the other kids should have spoken up. My point was that they weren't there when Cloud and Tifa fell, so they ultimately didn't know why she fell. All they would have known is that their friend was in a coma, all the adults in their world were blaming Cloud for it, and Cloud himself suddenly took to being a little shit who was trying to beat them up.

They were all kids. None of them were criminal masterminds.

The adults weren't accusing Cloud of pushing her off the bridge after they'd come up there intentionally. The line is "Cloud! Why'd you bring Tifa to a place like this!" The kids KNOW Cloud didn't do that any more then they themselves did. And Tifa was in the coma for a week, she stayed ignorant of the events leading up to it, including the parts they were around for, for years and years to come. Tifa didn't know the context behind the Cloud's actions and thus thought he liked starting fights, the whole reveal is pointless if you assume even the kids did know where as perplexed as Tifa was.