How would you re-write AC/C?

[The Twilight Mexican]

The adults weren't accusing Cloud of pushing her off the bridge after they'd come up there intentionally. The line is "Cloud! Why'd you bring Tifa to a place like this!" The kids KNOW Cloud didn't do that any more then they themselves did.

A line those kids weren't present for. It's not like they were on the town council or something.

Like I said, they may have known nothing more than that the adults were blaming Cloud -- who is suddenly, inexplicably trying to hurt them "too." Not exactly someone they're likely to give the benefit of the doubt or go out of their way to defend.

Again, we're talking little kids here, not criminal masterminds. They aren't going to piece things together.

I'd rather not admit how old I was when I finally learned that automobiles don't have a device in them that measures how much they're driven, with annual car tax derived accordingly, like reading the meter for an electric bill.

Tifa didn't know the context behind the Cloud's actions and thus thought he liked starting fights, the whole reveal is pointless if you assume even the kids did know where as perplexed as Tifa was.

If some secret that the other kids in Nibelheim were sitting on was the point of all that's uncovered beneath Mideel rather than Cloud being real and having beaten Seph, I'd agree. Since it wasn't, though, I don't know why you think the whole thing rests on a relatively minor plot point that was probably a misunderstanding anyway.

And we still haven't gotten to how the other kids were supposed to be more involved in what happened than Cloud, who was actually there for all of it.

 

[Roger]

The adults weren't accusing Cloud of pushing her off the bridge after they'd come up there intentionally. The line is "Cloud! Why'd you bring Tifa to a place like this!" The kids KNOW Cloud didn't do that any more then they themselves did.

A line those kids weren't present for. It's not like they were on the town council or something.

Like I said, they may have known nothing more than that the adults were blaming Cloud -- who is suddenly, inexplicably trying to hurt them "too." Not exactly someone they're likely to give the benefit of the doubt or go out of their way to defend.

That still assumes these kids were in exact same boat as Tifa afterwards. Tifa just know fights were happening, that does not mean we should assume that Cloud was just mutely attacking over and over again for 7 years, that no arguments preempted these fights and that no information was ever exchanged at all.

I'd rather not admit how old I was when I finally learned that automobiles don't have a device in them that measures how much they're driven, with annual car tax derived accordingly, like reading the meter for an electric bill.

This isn't some big boring grownup subject. If one of your friends went into a coma for a week, you'd have brought it up with them in idle conversation at least once over the next 7 years, wouldn't you?

And we still haven't gotten to how the other kids were supposed to be more involved in what happened than Cloud, who was actually there for all of it.

I wasn't arguing that. I was disagreeing with hian's argument that problems between the kids were because they were equally immature and the problems were entire mutual. They don't know everything, but they know more then enough to absolve Cloud of what the village is holding against him at any time over the following 7 years, or at least clue Tifa into why she was in a coma.

But FYI Cloud was only in earshot for all of it.


I don't know how Cloud's hearing this but clearly it's these other kids that Tifa's asking if her mom's up there. They had the chance to dissuade her, not Cloud.

 

[Clement Rage]

Not dumping on the entire cast of the original game. Easier to start a resistance when you have a group and you're undercover/no one knows about you, unlike Zack who's one man and is widely known and being chased by Shinra at the moment of his escape.

He wasn't being chased at all at the many moments of his continuing to take orders, though. =P

But I'm guessing you mean when he became disillusioned by the company before the Nibelhim Incident?

Yep.


The strength to influence their windpipes to take on a crushed shape.

Which he could have done... when?

Different understandings do get attached to the word -- but as it's usually discussed in this academic consideration, the very fact of some internal process compelling one to act invalidates the concept.

Some would argue that taking action being the instinct for some means altruism does still exist. Others would respond that plenty of instincts are self-serving, and that some internal processes are so rapid as to occur before we realize we've thought about them.

It's as pointless a consideration to get hung up on as whether God can create a rock that can't be lifted, though, or whether the size of the universe makes us insignificant. Who cares if we can't establish altruism? Whether it exists isn't going to accomplish -- or end -- any of the things we consider altruistic.

I've seen some folks get very, very threatened and angry by this discussion, and the idea of losing that notion of inherent goodness. What an absolute waste of time.

You're confusing 'unknowable' with necessarily non existent, though. We can't untangle anyone's motives enough to know if it exists or not.

Does an internal process necessarily compel, or just create an option?

Broadly, I agree that 'who cares', but that also means it's just as useless an argument in this debate.

Not according to the official timelines. The war had dragged on as a stalemate for a while until Shin-Ra sent most of SOLDIER to wipe them out all at once -- only for Genesis to desert and take those SOLDIERs with him.

Zack, Angeal and Sephiroth were then sent to strike a more nuanced but no less crippling blow.

What timeline is this?

Like Yuffie and Vincent? =P

Those were made canon by later versions of the game. There's nothing in the rest of the compilation that makes every single optional mission necessary, it's actually pretty unlikely that they are. Or is it also canon that Cloud bred several generations of Chocobo in less than seven days?

 

[Flare]

The point isn't that Zack would necessarily have succeeded with revolt or even that he did wrong by sticking around -- the point is he didn't do much of anything with it. There's no indication that he planned to wait for a chance to take out Hojo or the President, that he was going to secretly work to undermine them or anything of the sort. Like it didn't even occur to him as a possibility.

We see him become disillusioned about the idea of Shin-Ra improving people's lives maybe, but we don't see him thinking about leaving or doing anything with the stuff he's learned.

Well, some people try to do grand stuff like start revolutions and take on a world-controlling company, other's don't. As I said before, it takes a lot of courage to go on a suicide mission, even if you're dedicated to it.
To actually topple Shinra corp, you'd have to kill the President, then Rufus, then all the executives beneath them... even then, it's a huge organization, and one man against it is a hard sell. If Zack had help, like say, if someone came to him by that point in his life and said 'Hey, we're gonna rebel against Shinra. You know what this place is like, help us out', maybe he would've?

I just think it's a bit harsh to say that Zack got all this karma because he didn't decide to do a suicide rampage in Shinra Corp in an effort to try and stop the organization You can call him a coward or whatever for not doing so, but I still argue that he's a good guy. He did a lot of stuff on his own to protect people he cared about (going up against Genesis and Sephiroth, taking care of Cloud).

I think it's just not in Zack to stage a whole revolution/suicide thing. I mean think about his last ideas when heading to Midgar to try and reach Aerith. Firstly, see his girlfriend. Next, he's trying to think of a job he can do, and Cloud too. He's trying to get away from Shinra and make a kind of life for himself. It's a totally different approach to the cast in the og, who want to destroy Shinra for all the pain that was caused to them by Shinra. Zack doesn't want to take on Shinra, even after all the stuff he knows it's done. It's just not the kind of guy he is.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Well, it doesn't make sense to me is all, frankly.

Particularly Wutai should have dwelled on his conscience after he saw what Shin-Ra was really like, but we really don't get any of that. Being live and let live is one thing, but we're talking about something he was personally responsible for. It's very odd to me that he wouldn't try to make amends.

The adults weren't accusing Cloud of pushing her off the bridge after they'd come up there intentionally. The line is "Cloud! Why'd you bring Tifa to a place like this!" The kids KNOW Cloud didn't do that any more then they themselves did.

A line those kids weren't present for. It's not like they were on the town council or something.

Like I said, they may have known nothing more than that the adults were blaming Cloud -- who is suddenly, inexplicably trying to hurt them "too." Not exactly someone they're likely to give the benefit of the doubt or go out of their way to defend.

That still assumes these kids were in exact same boat as Tifa afterwards. Tifa just know fights were happening, that does not mean we should assume that Cloud was just mutely attacking over and over again for 7 years, that no arguments preempted these fights and that no information was ever exchanged at all.

We can't assume it, no, but we shouldn't assume the opposite either. Cloud starting stuff without saying much sounds as much like him as talking a big game beforehand.

I'd rather not admit how old I was when I finally learned that automobiles don't have a device in them that measures how much they're driven, with annual car tax derived accordingly, like reading the meter for an electric bill.

This isn't some big boring grownup subject. If one of your friends went into a coma for a week, you'd have brought it up with them in idle conversation at least once over the next 7 years, wouldn't you?

Yes, I would. So, why are we assuming they never did? Or that she never asked? It stands more to reason that -- seeing as they weren't there to know why she fell -- the town's perception of Cloud and his own anguished behavior had influenced their recollections by that point.

Like I said, the most simple explanation is an ongoing series of misunderstandings and hurt feelings all the way around.

The strength to influence their windpipes to take on a crushed shape.

Which he could have done... when?

Well, never without having the intention or making the effort.

Less flippantly, if AVALANCHE got to them more than once, then the SOLDIER regarded as second only to Sephiroth should have been able to get at least to his own boss, Heidegger. Zack saw Lazard all the time when he was the executive over SOLDIER.

Being a selfish fuck, Heidegger maybe could have been persuaded to help him get close to Hojo or the President.

Or maybe the effort would have ended in abject failure from the start and Zack would have been killed. Point is he never tried or so much as thought about it for all we're ever made aware.

You're confusing 'unknowable' with necessarily non existent, though. We can't untangle anyone's motives enough to know if it exists or not.

Perhaps we can't -- but short of someone's motor functions being hijacked by an outside force, it's reasonable to conclude an inner compulsion compels most, if not all, behavior.

Does an internal process necessarily compel, or just create an option?

Both, probably. The options are presented and the more palatable choice gets chosen.

Broadly, I agree that 'who cares', but that also means it's just as useless an argument in this debate.

Absolutely. I'm not applying it to the core debate here, though.

Not according to the official timelines. The war had dragged on as a stalemate for a while until Shin-Ra sent most of SOLDIER to wipe them out all at once -- only for Genesis to desert and take those SOLDIERs with him.

Zack, Angeal and Sephiroth were then sent to strike a more nuanced but no less crippling blow.

What timeline is this?

Apparently I'm mainly remembering the "Wutai War" entry in the CC Complete Guide's Keyword Collection:

----
Wutai War
Because of Wutai's resistance to Shin-Ra's proposal to construct a mako reactor on their land, the end of negotations meant a shift to the conflict that would be known as the Wutai War. The war continued for a long period of time, and due to this stall in progress, Shin-Ra decided to send in SOLDIER. However, the first batch of SOLDIERs inserted at this time would disappear along with Genesis (SOLDIER Mass Desertion Incident). Therefore, Zack and Angeal, along with Sephiroth, were dispatched, finally seeing a great change in the war situation. As a result of Fort Tamblin falling in [ μ ] – εуλ 2000, the Wutai forces offered their surrender. Thus, the lengthy war ended with President Shinra's [ ν ] – εуλ 0001 declaration of a cessation of hostilities.

[Translation note: What I worded as "stall in progress" is 戦況が膠着していた in Japanese -- literally "war situation/progress had stalemated."]
----

Though the timeline from the 10th Anniversary Ultimania also offers this:

----
[ μ ] – εуλ 2000
· The SOLDIER Mass Desertion Incident occurs in Wutai. Observing the grim situation in Wutai, Shin-Ra dispatches a force led by SOLDIERs 1st Class
----

Like Yuffie and Vincent? =P

Those were made canon by later versions of the game. There's nothing in the rest of the compilation that makes every single optional mission necessary, it's actually pretty unlikely that they are. Or is it also canon that Cloud bred several generations of Chocobo in less than seven days?

The CC Complete Guide seems to treat the missions as real:

----
Monster Investigation Program
A program aimed at gathering information about the appearance of monsters all over the world. As it is necessary to make contact with the monsters, this dangerous investigation is assigned as part of a SOLDIER’s duty. After investigating the monsters within Midgar, harsher missions have operatives traveling to uninhabited areas and islands.
----

----
Crescent Unit [aka: Engetsu Corps]
A special unit with the Wutai Army. An elite group, said to “appease the wrath of Leviathan and smite the enemies of Wutai,” and skilled not only in combat but also in espionage. Like other Wutai soldiers,
they are armed with gun-lances. For their uniforms, the privates wear uniforms with a grey base and trousers embroidered with a chakram*, and the commanders uniforms with a black base and trousers embroidered
with a dragon, and wear a mask. It is a custom for each member to be given a name related to the moon. The Five Saints of Wutai also belong to this unit, and after the end of the Wutai war they gathered
together the remnants of the Wutai army. They hate Zack for dealing the fatal blow to the Wutai Army in the attack on Fort Tamblin.
----

[Aside: Here we see it reiterated that Zack dealt the decisive blow to Wutai.]

----
Joint Training
Joint training that the Public Safety Department challenged the
SOLDIER Department to. The training consists of actual combat between the SOLDIER Department and the Public Safety, and in the game they are treated as missions. Despite the Public Safety Department investing a large budget into this training, all 6 end in victory for the SOLDIER Department.
----

----
Orphanage
An orphan housing facility run by Shinra as part of their charity work. But in actuality, the children are put through harsh training with the goal of cultivating future candidates for the Turks and SOLDIER. Cissnei is also from this facility, and after enduring the brutal training she was hired by the Turks. In Missions No. 205~210, “Orphans Escaping”, children from this orphanage have escaped.
----

----
The Mysterious Cave
A large, mysterious cave discovered in the north. The ShinRa army, the Wutai army, and the Genesis army each pursued what lurked inside the interior of the cave, and when the Wutai and Genesis forces were annihilated, it left behind only the SOLDIERs of the ShinRa Army. Furthermore, within the cave lurked monsters and machines and other things of abnormal strength, and in the darkest depths of the cave is where Minerva reigned as the source of the energy within.
----

 

[Starling]

I don't see why you'd assume the kids Tifa was with didn't play any part in the way Cloud was treated after the incident. Kids may not be criminal masterminds but it's ridiculously easy to frame other kids who aren't as well liked for things they didn't do, simply because adults can be rather biased about this kind of thing. Any kid aware of some form of favouritism is perfectly capable of taking advantage of it whenever they see an opportunity. Withholding information is another thing kids are perfectly capable of doing, especially since it involves not saying something rather than making a convincing lie.

We know that the other kids knew why Tifa went up the mountain, had the opportunity to talk her out of it, didn't and ended up leaving her on her own. They knew Cloud didn't take Tifa up the mountain but didn't say anything when he got blamed for it. At best, they were trying to avoid getting in trouble by pretending not to have been involved, which Cloud would understandably get upset about. At worst, they did it to spite Cloud because they don't like him. In fact, for all we know they told someone Tifa was in the mountains when they ran back into town, in which case they could've given the impression Cloud had something to do with it before they even found Cloud and Tifa.

Another thing to remember is that when someone thinks a kid did something wrong, it can be damn hard to convince them otherwise, especially if the person disagreeing isn't as old as them. It's an unfortunately common parenting problem, as well as why school disciplinary measures can be rather underwhelming.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

That scenario is entirely possible too.

 

[Clement Rage]

Well, never without having the intention or making the effort.

Less flippantly, if AVALANCHE got to them more than once, then the SOLDIER regarded as second only to Sephiroth should have been able to get at least to his own boss, Heidegger. Zack saw Lazard all the time when he was the executive over SOLDIER.

Being a selfish fuck, Heidegger maybe could have been persuaded to help him get close to Hojo or the President.

Or maybe the effort would have ended in abject failure from the start and Zack would have been killed. Point is he never tried or so much as thought about it for all we're ever made aware.

Lazard was his direct superior, there's a couple of degrees of separation between him and Heidi -we never see him in the game, after all. AVALANCHE got one shot despite a mole on the board and infinite money and resources.

Up to Nibelheim, Zack was still in the 'growing mistrust' stage. There was probably a rebellion brewing eventually, but didn't get around to it before Hojo got to him.

Perhaps we can't -- but short of someone's motor functions being hijacked by an outside force, it's reasonable to conclude an inner compulsion compels most, if not all, behavior.


Both, probably. The options are presented and the more palatable choice gets chosen.

Alright, but what causes that inner compulsion? We don't know, ergo it's back to 'mystery' over 'definitively does not exist'

Apparently I'm mainly remembering the "Wutai War" entry in the CC Complete Guide's Keyword Collection:

----
Wutai War
Because of Wutai's resistance to Shin-Ra's proposal to construct a mako reactor on their land, the end of negotations meant a shift to the conflict that would be known as the Wutai War. The war continued for a long period of time, and due to this stall in progress, Shin-Ra decided to send in SOLDIER. However, the first batch of SOLDIERs inserted at this time would disappear along with Genesis (SOLDIER Mass Desertion Incident). Therefore, Zack and Angeal, along with Sephiroth, were dispatched, finally seeing a great change in the war situation. As a result of Fort Tamblin falling in [ μ ] – εуλ 2000, the Wutai forces offered their surrender. Thus, the lengthy war ended with President Shinra's [ ν ] – εуλ 0001 declaration of a cessation of hostilities.

That... doesn't make much sense, but canon is canon, I guess.

Like Yuffie and Vincent? =P

Those were made canon by later versions of the game. There's nothing in the rest of the compilation that makes every single optional mission necessary, it's actually pretty unlikely that they are. Or is it also canon that Cloud bred several generations of Chocobo in less than seven days?

The CC Complete Guide seems to treat the missions as real:

----
Monster Investigation Program
A program aimed at gathering information about the appearance of monsters all over the world. As it is necessary to make contact with the monsters, this dangerous investigation is assigned as part of a SOLDIER’s duty. After investigating the monsters within Midgar, harsher missions have operatives traveling to uninhabited areas and islands.
----

----
Crescent Unit [aka: Engetsu Corps]
A special unit with the Wutai Army. An elite group, said to “appease the wrath of Leviathan and smite the enemies of Wutai,” and skilled not only in combat but also in espionage. Like other Wutai soldiers,
they are armed with gun-lances. For their uniforms, the privates wear uniforms with a grey base and trousers embroidered with a chakram*, and the commanders uniforms with a black base and trousers embroidered
with a dragon, and wear a mask. It is a custom for each member to be given a name related to the moon. The Five Saints of Wutai also belong to this unit, and after the end of the Wutai war they gathered
together the remnants of the Wutai army. They hate Zack for dealing the fatal blow to the Wutai Army in the attack on Fort Tamblin.
----

[Aside: Here we see it reiterated that Zack dealt the decisive blow to Wutai.]

----
Joint Training
Joint training that the Public Safety Department challenged the
SOLDIER Department to. The training consists of actual combat between the SOLDIER Department and the Public Safety, and in the game they are treated as missions. Despite the Public Safety Department investing a large budget into this training, all 6 end in victory for the SOLDIER Department.
----

----
Orphanage
An orphan housing facility run by Shinra as part of their charity work. But in actuality, the children are put through harsh training with the goal of cultivating future candidates for the Turks and SOLDIER. Cissnei is also from this facility, and after enduring the brutal training she was hired by the Turks. In Missions No. 205~210, “Orphans Escaping”, children from this orphanage have escaped.
----

----
The Mysterious Cave
A large, mysterious cave discovered in the north. The ShinRa army, the Wutai army, and the Genesis army each pursued what lurked inside the interior of the cave, and when the Wutai and Genesis forces were annihilated, it left behind only the SOLDIERs of the ShinRa Army. Furthermore, within the cave lurked monsters and machines and other things of abnormal strength, and in the darkest depths of the cave is where Minerva reigned as the source of the energy within.
----

Real options. But you went on those missions because you wanted whatever shiny rock was the reward, Zack didn't necessarily do them all in canon.

 

[Tennyo]

At best, they were trying to avoid getting in trouble by pretending not to have been involved, which Cloud would understandably get upset about. At worst, they did it to spite Cloud because they don't like him.

This has always been how I thought it went down. The kids needed a cover to protect themselves from getting caught. They didn't really get along with Cloud very much. Bird bird stone, bam.

Anyway, not to stray off topic too much but here's some more ideas I had for re-writing AC/C :

-More teamwork between Cloud and the rest of the party. I don't like how they just stood back and watched when he showed up to fight Bahamut.

-Cloud should do a better job of protecting his personal belongings. I mean seriously, he just leaves his phone on his bike? He just leaves an unlocked chest full of dangerous materia out in the open? I have a hard time believing he would do this.

-Make Rufus actually need a wheelchair. Why did he even use it? In AC I was thinking maybe he did, we never see him do more than stand just the one time, and lots of people who need wheelchairs can do at least that. However, ACC seemed to cement it in stone that he doesn't actually need it, which is lame. Also, I would get rid of that stupid blanket, OR, I would make Rufus have sever burns/stigma patches/whatever, so that he actually needs it.

-Find a better reason for the party to not get involved in the Sephiroth fight. No existential chit chat where the conclusion is, "Well he's the main character so he's got this" while they fly away on the airship. I mean, there are monsters running around Edge, could that have been enough? Or perhaps all the spirit energy kept them away? I would like to see the party try to reach him but be blocked from being able to do so.

-No driving motorcycles on the flowers. It's understandable that Kadaj would, since he's the antagonist, but when Cloud busts into the church on Fenrir it just seems a little silly. It's like, Cloud, you should know better. Don't ruin Aerith's flowers.

-Speaking of the church, actually give Kadaj some incentive to go there. What if he had driven right on by? The movie would have ended very differently.

-Show us Cloud actually contracting geostigma.

-Have the movie take place in Kalm instead of Edge. I've never really been sure if I could really buy that Edge could just pop up the way it did as fast as it did.

-Have Elmyra show up.

I feel like I had more but I'll add it later if I think of it.

 

[Tashasaurous]

At best, they were trying to avoid getting in trouble by pretending not to have been involved, which Cloud would understandably get upset about. At worst, they did it to spite Cloud because they don't like him.

This has always been how I thought it went down. The kids needed a cover to protect themselves from getting caught. They didn't really get along with Cloud very much. Bird bird stone, bam.

Anyway, not to stray off topic too much but here's some more ideas I had for re-writing AC/C :

Haven't we kinda been straying off topic in this thread anyway? I mean, no offence, but this is a "How would you re-write AC/C?" thread.

-More teamwork between Cloud and the rest of the party. I don't like how they just stood back and watched when he showed up to fight Bahamut.

I would've had them make a larger apparences through out the movie along with Tseng and Elena, I have to admit. The film focused a little bit too much on Cloud, Tifa, Rufus, Reno, Rude and the Remnants. But then again, it should also focus on more explanition of the children, though I can see why it was easy for Kadaj to take control of them, because the kids are, well, kids.

-Cloud should do a better job of protecting his personal belongings. I mean seriously, he just leaves his phone on his bike? He just leaves an unlocked chest full of dangerous materia out in the open? I have a hard time believing he would do this.

Actually, Cloud lost his phone which fell into the lake when he was knocked out by Kadaj in the Forgotten City. Had to buy a replacement afterwards.

Besides, he had planned on giving the Materia to Yuffie. Besides, being sick with any kind of illness can make one close some focus in the mind. I know I always feel like a zombie whenever I get the flu.

-Make Rufus actually need a wheelchair. Why did he even use it? In AC I was thinking maybe he did, we never see him do more than stand just the one time, and lots of people who need wheelchairs can do at least that. However, ACC seemed to cement it in stone that he doesn't actually need it, which is lame. Also, I would get rid of that stupid blanket, OR, I would make Rufus have sever burns/stigma patches/whatever, so that he actually needs it.

If you read "Episode of ShinRa-On the Way to Smile", you'll find out how Rufus's injuries went. The only reason he did this was because he didn't want Cloud or Kadaj(until the last minute) to realise that he was still capable of doing things, and that he had to hide Jenova's head underneath the blanket.

-Find a better reason for the party to not get involved in the Sephiroth fight. No existential chit chat where the conclusion is, "Well he's the main character so he's got this" while they fly away on the airship. I mean, there are monsters running around Edge, could that have been enough? Or perhaps all the spirit energy kept them away? I would like to see the party try to reach him but be blocked from being able to do so.

I think even the monsters abandoned Midgar because it was too cramped with broken metal and all that.

As for Cloud being the only one to get involved in fighting Sephiroth, that I can understand at least, but it was really Cloud's fight and none of the others.

-No driving motorcycles on the flowers. It's understandable that Kadaj would, since he's the antagonist, but when Cloud busts into the church on Fenrir it just seems a little silly. It's like, Cloud, you should know better. Don't ruin Aerith's flowers.

Tifa and Loz both kinda ruined the flowers even before Kadaj and Cloud both arrivied. Plus, I was a little miffed that they were destroyed and replaced by the curable(and admittedly very beautiful) waters infused with the Lifestream. But then again, that kinda explains why the flowers only grew there and how they survived for so long.

-Speaking of the church, actually give Kadaj some incentive to go there. What if he had driven right on by? The movie would have ended very differently.

Probably because he was stupidly minded and desperate to keep his "Mommy's" head away from Cloud so that he could turn into Sephiroth.

-Show us Cloud actually contracting geostigma.

He kept it hidden until the sleeve got ruined was because he didn't want Tifa, Marlene or Denzel or anyone else for that matter know he had Geostigma.

-Have the movie take place in Kalm instead of Edge. I've never really been sure if I could really buy that Edge could just pop up the way it did as fast as it did.

Construction site took parts from Midgar. Again, all explained in "Episode of ShinRa-On the Way to a Smile". Besides, Kalm was being rebuilt due to the Lifestream in the OG, only to get trashed again due to DeepGround in Dirge of Cerberus.

-Have Elmyra show up.

Maybe she died due to old age? Or maybe she died due to both that and Geostigma.

 

[Tennyo]

Haven't we kinda been straying off topic in this thread anyway? I mean, no offence, but this is a "How would you re-write AC/C?" thread.

Yes I know. I was being snarky.

Actually, Cloud lost his phone which fell into the lake when he was knocked out by Kadaj in the Forgotten City. Had to buy a replacement afterwards.

Besides, he had planned on giving the Materia to Yuffie. Besides, being sick with any kind of illness can make one close some focus in the mind. I know I always feel like a zombie whenever I get the flu.

He left his phone on his bike during the scene where he first met Denzel. That's what I was referring to.

Also, I don't think being sick would make Cloud leave the materia sitting out. It's just...odd.

If you read "Episode of ShinRa-On the Way to Smile", you'll find out how Rufus's injuries went. The only reason he did this was because he didn't want Cloud or Kadaj(until the last minute) to realise that he was still capable of doing things, and that he had to hide Jenova's head underneath the blanket.

Oh, I've read it. It's still a silly reason.

I think even the monsters abandoned Midgar because it was too cramped with broken metal and all that.

As for Cloud being the only one to get involved in fighting Sephiroth, that I can understand at least, but it was really Cloud's fight and none of the others.

I mean the Shadow Creepers that the Remnants called forth in the city square. Maybe the party is preoccupied with them and that's why they can't make it to the Sephiroth fight.

And I didn't say the party should be part of the Sephiroth fight. Yes I think it was important for Cloud to take him on alone. However, the movie's reason for the party not getting involved was lame. Give a better reason to keep them out of it.

Tifa and Loz both kinda ruined the flowers even before Kadaj and Cloud both arrivied. Plus, I was a little miffed that they were destroyed and replaced by the curable(and admittedly very beautiful) waters infused with the Lifestream. But then again, that kinda explains why the flowers only grew there and how they survived for so long.

That still doesn't excuse driving motorcycles all over them.

Probably because he was stupidly minded and desperate to keep his "Mommy's" head away from Cloud so that he could turn into Sephiroth.

That's not a reason to go into the church, either. The place where the Lifestream just happens to be. And Cloud HAPPENS to drive his motocycle over the ONE SPOT where Kadaj would need to fire in order to set the water free.

It's silly.

He kept it hidden until the sleeve got ruined was because he didn't want Tifa, Marlene or Denzel or anyone else for that matter know he had Geostigma.

I understand this. I don't think Tifa and the kids where there when he first realized he had it, though.

Construction site took parts from Midgar. Again, all explained in "Episode of ShinRa-On the Way to a Smile". Besides, Kalm was being rebuilt due to the Lifestream in the OG, only to get trashed again due to DeepGround in Dirge of Cerberus.

Yes, but that doesn't change anything.

Maybe she died due to old age? Or maybe she died due to both that and Geostigma.

I'm pretty sure Elmyra is very much alive. She's not THAT old, and I don't think she contracted Geostigma, either.

 

[ForceStealer]

I don't think it's all that strange for Rufus to have made himself seem less healthy than he was for the sake of advantage. Also we've seen that Geostigma seems to affect you in "episodes," in which case it might be a good idea to be seated when one happens.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Yes, given that he's likely to be viewed a threat, making himself look as sick and weak as possible is a good strategy for Rufus. It certainly disarms Cloud. It's really hard to kill someone you pity.

I know the Zack discussion is more or less over, but I read it with interest and I just wanted to chime, FWIW, that I don't see Zack's failure to rise up and rebel against Shinra as at all strange. For one thing, he's not a big picture kind of thinker, more of a "point me at what I need to kill" thinker. Secondly, he's seen where rebellion against Shinra leads and it's not much prettier than Shinra - Avalanche No. 1, the wanton loss of life in the Wutai rebellion (he struggles to grasp why people would willingly die for a lost cause), Genesis's vengeful campaign against the company... I can't see Zack wanting to be associated with anything that causes suffering, whether it's Shinra or rebelling against Shinra.

On the other hand, going freelance, helping ordinary people on a one-to-one basis with whatever problem they have that requires some muscle... That's the kind of life that would be meaningful to Zack.

Had he lived, though, I could see him gradually falling in with people like Tifa and Barret, although I can't see him ever again accepting that the ends justify the means. He would never get involved with, say, bombing a Midgar reactor.

That's just my two cents.

 

[Tennyo]

Yeah I can see why Rufus would want to throw off suspicion. It's still a little hokey. At least, the way it was handled was. The dramatic throwing off of the blanket, then just tossing Jenova's head over the side, and trying to shoot it. I kind of chuckle every time.

But I do admit the "A good son would have known," line has always been kind of badass.

 

[ForceStealer]

It's a good thing you added that at the end there. Or we'da needed to have words...

 

[Tennyo]

Oh really now?

But no even if the entirety of AC was re-written I would find a way to squeeze that line in there.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Lazard was his direct superior, there's a couple of degrees of separation between him and Heidi -we never see him in the game, after all. AVALANCHE  got one shot despite a mole on the board and infinite money and resources.

Lazard was an executive, just like Heidegger, Hojo (whom Zack can casually encounter in the Materia Room [Edit: correction; Training Room] in Crisis Core, you may recall) or Reeve. SOLDIER was its own separate department until Lazard's defection.

Eventually, the Turks and SOLDIER were consolidated under Heidegger's department and authority.

As for AVALANCHE having one shot and failing, are you referring to when they got to the President or when they got to Hojo? 'Cause they could have killed Hojo outright had Fuhito not wanted to recruit him instead.

Just as Zack could have in the Materia Training Room.

Up to Nibelheim, Zack was still in the 'growing mistrust' stage. There was probably a rebellion brewing eventually, but didn't get around to it before Hojo got to him.

He had already learned what they did to Angeal and Genesis, as well as seen where their priorities lay when civilians were involved (Banora was turned into a crater to cover stuff up that went down there).

At how many earlier points should he have moved soundly from the "growing mistrust" stage into the "these fuckers have to be stopped" stage?

Alright, but what causes that inner compulsion? We don't know, ergo it's back to 'mystery' over 'definitively does not exist'

That isn't really the question, though. The question is whether the person making the choice can even make it while deriving no benefit whatsoever -- even if it's just the satisfaction of the matter being resolved. Maybe I'm missing something obvious to another person, but it seems self-evident to me that it's not possible.

That... doesn't make much sense, but canon is canon, I guess.

Real options. But you went on those missions because you wanted whatever shiny rock was the reward, Zack didn't necessarily do them all in canon.

I'd argue those descriptions tell us otherwise, but then I've also always been of the opinion -- even before stuff like the Compilation and FFX-2 started confirming it -- that the developers intended story-related optional material to be canon.

 

[Roger]

Just as Zack could have in the Materia Room.

Zack didn't know Ifalna, Vincent or Red XIII, his connection to Sephiroth and in his time Aerith wasn't being hunted. Zack had no cause to execute Hojo right there and then.

He had already learned what they did to Angeal and Genesis, as well as seen where their priorities lay when civilians were involved (Banora was turned into a crater to cover stuff up that went down there).

At how many earlier points should he have moved soundly from the "growing mistrust" stage into the "these fuckers have to be stopped" stage?

Who is "they"? Hollander and the people of Banora were the scientists that conducting the experiments on Angeal and Genesis. Shinra shut down the experiments and let go of nearly all the science team and Hollander was demoted. By the time Zack knew any of this Hollander had gone renegade and it's Shinra whose defending Midgar and various other cities from Genesis' attacks. And Banora's people had already been slaughtered by Genesis, Shinra didn't kill anyone there. What part of this do you feel should have made Zack start murdering Shinra employees?

 

[Tennyo]

@ Meeting Hojo in the materia room:

The room where you go to actually make the materia? Where the one dude is always all excited and intense music plays while the machine is running? I don't think Hojo was ever in there, was he. He had his own lab, and if you play around with his machines one of them breaks and Zack has to pay for it.

Am I remembering this wrong?

 

[Shademp]

Am I remembering this wrong?

Nope, you are remembering correctly. Hojo is casually encountered in the Training Room, not in the Materia Room.

Spoiler: Screenshot

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I was remembering the wrong room. It was the Training Room. [Edit: Ninja Shademp ]

And to your point about it, Minato, Zack didn't have cause to execute him the first time he saw him there, no, but we're not talking about that, are we? Unless we're assuming Hojo never showed his face again after Zack learned of Shin-Ra's shady crap, there would have likely been another chance.

And yes, Banora, is totally an example of that shady crap. Shin-Ra didn't kill the civilians, but they covered up that one of their own had done so -- by blowing the place right off the map.

How does that not scream "responsible for all the evil in this world" to anyone with two brain cells? =P

Sorry, I'm not saying Zack wasn't a decent person. He just wasn't much of a hero for most of his career.

 

[Shademp]

Perhaps it is correct to say that Zack never thinks about the bigger picture? Even when he is on the run from the company, he is never shown to think "The company must be stopped!" All he wants to do is protect his friend, meet his girl, and in the process protect his honor and fulfill his dream to become a hero. These are all immediate concerns within his personal sphere, not about the world from a larger perspective.

It makes me think that Zack's frustrated monologue inside the Nibelheim Inn holds a portion of truth even after Zack apparently "remembers" his dreams and honor.

I'm with SOLDIER, so...
...fighting's all I do.
Sorting things out is someone else's job.
What's going on? Who's the enemy?
It makes no difference to me!

It is obviously a temporary delusion that he doesn't care about who the enemy is. When Angeal was the enemy, Zack cared a lot. But Zack doesn't care enough or have the brains to figure out that Shinra was in the wrong during the Wutai War. Perhaps this is connected to Zack's dislike towards reading.

Spoiler: Zack's reaction to reading research notes in Hollander's hideout

Zack isn't stupid, but he's as far from an academic intellectual as you go. For Minerva's sake, he didn't even know how materia works after having been SOLDIER First Class for 1-2 years.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

^CC has people on both ends of the big-picture vs. little-picture spectrum. On the big-picture end, you've got Genesis. All he cares about is taking down Shin-Ra; he doesn't care who he ends up hurting in the process. Zack is the exact opposite; He only cares about what Shin-Ra is doing when it impacts people close to him. Other then that, it's not his problem. Interestingly enough, neither of their approaches actually works.

It's not until the OG that you get people who are in-between Zack and Genesis's views and they're the ones who manage to change things for the better.

 

[Clement Rage]

Minato replied for me, but anyway.

Lazard was his direct superior, there's a couple of degrees of separation between him and Heidi -we never see him in the game, after all. AVALANCHE  got one shot despite a mole on the board and infinite money and resources.

Lazard was an executive, just like Heidegger, Hojo (whom Zack can casually encounter in the Materia Room [Edit: correction; Training Room] in Crisis Core, you may recall) or Reeve. SOLDIER was its own separate department until Lazard's defection.

Eventually, the Turks and SOLDIER were consolidated under Heidegger's department and authority.
.

I know all that. But their positions are still different. Lazard was directly responsible for SOLDIER and only SOLDIER, his office is on the same floor or nearby. Heidegger has other responsibilities and has a much bigger department, his office is somewhere else, he might not even deal with them directly. It is possible he had an opportunity, but it's also possible that Heidi doesn't cross paths with him.

What does he know about Hojo before Nibelheim? Genesis and Angeal are Hollander's project, and he is a wanted fugitive. Sephiroth's origins are not discovered until... yup, Nibelheim. Shinra appears to care about civilian lives (they delayed the bombing for the sake of Angeal's Mom, they send him on missions to protect civilians.) That's a step up from Genesis. And the most morally ambiguous thing he does in the game is let Genesis go at the end.

The only person he in canon has a clear shot at that he should know is definitively neck deep in shady stuff is Tseng.

'Hero' is a very flexible word. Everyone sees it differently.

That isn't really the question, though. The question is whether the person making the choice can even make it while deriving no benefit whatsoever -- even if it's just the satisfaction of the matter being resolved. Maybe I'm missing something obvious to another person, but it seems self-evident to me that it's not possible.

We don't know. There's no way to tell without telepathy.

Can't tell if you're agreeing with me or not. One day, I will figure out what this icon means. One day...

I'd argue those descriptions tell us otherwise, but then I've also always been of the opinion -- even before stuff like the Compilation and FFX-2 started confirming it -- that the developers intended story-related optional material to be canon.

That seems counterintuitive to me, because usually, this involves characters we're treating as real people running their lives under videogame logic:

"I have an urgent objective I care deeply about that is time sensitive. But first, the casino!"

How story relevant are those missions? Many of them are cut and paste environments with palate swapped enemies that nothing much story related happens in.

 

[Roger]

And to your point about it, Minato, Zack didn't have cause to execute him the first time he saw him there, no, but we're not talking about that, are we? Unless we're assuming Hojo never showed his face again after Zack learned of Shin-Ra's shady crap, there would have likely been another chance.

He doesn't learn about any of the stuff that Hojo is responsible for until Nibelheim. He gets a better understanding of what Shinra is like but nevertheless has no more reason to kill Hojo out of the blue then he does Sephiroth, or Tseng or Cissnei. Those guys have been with Shinra a long time too, should he have killed them?

And yes, Banora, is totally an example of that shady crap. Shin-Ra didn't kill the civilians, but they covered up that one of their own had done so -- by blowing the place right off the map.

How does that not scream "responsible for all the evil in this world" to anyone with two brain cells? =P

"Covered it up" doesn't mean much when there is no police force and there is no government. They aren't preventing the people responsible from being brought to justice. They are the ones dealing with Genesis' attacks anyway.

Attacking Shinra instead of going on their missions, protecting innocent civilians from Genesis' subsequent acts of indiscriminate terrorism wouldn't be doing right by the people of Banora at all.