I think I figured out why I don't really like Sephiroth.

[Octo]

That's the thing, the reasons for Sephiroth's power were so exact and down to a science (unlike by chance, personal ambition, or long term planning, like a lot of powerful antagonist), something Shinra could have easily done twice.

What I don't understand is why Shinra never tried to replicate Sephiroth's creation process exactly after it was proven a success.

And I don't mean Genesis/Angeal like, I mean, exactly.

Yeah I mean, horrible as it sounds it not like they needed a pregnant woman to volunteer was it? Shinra, and especially Hojo aren't ethical at all.

It would have made sense if after the Jenova experiment it somehow escaped, so they had no more cells to use. Sephiroth could have found out about his origin some other way.

 

[ForceStealer]

That's the thing, the reasons for Sephiroth's power were so exact and down to a science (unlike by chance, personal ambition, or long term planning, like a lot of powerful antagonist), something Shinra could have easily done twice.

What I don't understand is why Shinra never tried to replicate Sephiroth's creation process exactly after it was proven a success.

And I don't mean Genesis/Angeal like, I mean, exactly.

It's a good question, I guess all there is is that Hojo was never actually interested in recreating Sephiroth. He was interested in the Jenova Reunion. Making a bunch of mindscrewed flunkies (and justifying it by calling it the Sephiroth Copy Project) served that end better than making another one.

Maybe?

 

[Roger]

Anyway that doesn't sound like the actions of an unintelligent being, it knew what it was doing. I still don't get how Sephiroth could bend Jenova to his will, as the only special thing about Sephiroth was his Jenova cells.

Well his Jenova cells are the same kind of Jenova cells as Cloud, Zack, or the average SOLDIER Third Class. The fact that they were part of his fetul growth was what made him special- he's a new lifeform, a second Jenova. Not neccesarily better then the old one, but Jenova has been kinda braindead for the last 2000 years.

I get that they were trying to put a spin what they usually do, Zemus controlled Golbez, Ultimecia controlled Edea/Rinoa/Adel, Chaos controlled Garland, Cloud of Darkness was responsible for whatshisface, here there is a 2000 year old alien entity that a previously good enough guy had a connection too... but the guy is still the real problem.
I like it but having Jenova say "beacause you are a puppet" was going too far, having her be concious yet the runner-up villain, eh.

 

[Dawnbreaker]

I was always confused by that "Because you are a puppet" line myself. It felt out of place, as far as I'm concerned. I know it was Jenova speaking to Cloud, but again, it just feels unnecessary, and really out of a character for her. She (it?) never spoke before or after so that one time just is rather random.

 

[Ite]

I like FFVII's ambiguity, for me the story is way more about what you the player think, than what is actually happening.

That's hard to say as a dude who keeps trying to novelize the game.

 

[ForceStealer]

I know we're loathe to bring up anything positive that the Compilation may have provided. But I think the fact that by Advent Children, Sephiroth's plan is to - no matter how he sugarcoats it - BECOME Jenova adds a lot of credence to those thinking Jenova's the true villain after all.

Sephiroth did dominate her will, she is braindead. But the fact that he ended up coming to the same conclusion about what to do makes you wonder who got the last laugh, if you will. Even back in the OG I never perceived Jenova as being the real villain, not through any real insight on my part, it just didn't really occur to me I guess. And now we know canonically that she did not consciously control him. But he's still made up of her cells and any instinctual desires they might have may very well have been worked into his psyche.

 

[Lord Noctis]

I know we're loathe to bring up anything positive that the Compilation may have provided. But I think the fact that by Advent Children, Sephiroth's plan is to - no matter how he sugarcoats it - BECOME Jenova adds a lot of credence to those thinking Jenova's the true villain after all.

Sephiroth did dominate her will, she is braindead. But the fact that he ended up coming to the same conclusion about what to do makes you wonder who got the last laugh, if you will. Even back in the OG I never perceived Jenova as being the real villain, not through any real insight on my part, it just didn't really occur to me I guess. And now we know canonically that she did not consciously control him. But he's still made up of her cells and any instinctual desires they might have may very well have been worked into his psyche.

This to some extent, although I would add that it always seemed clear to me that Sephiroth was intended to be the real villian in that game, with Jenova serving as more of a catalyst/plot device than a real antagonist. The fact that Sephiroth is the last thing you fight, rather than Jenova herself seems to support this. Maybe its just me but thats just how I interpreted the game.

As for their relationship, I think Sephiroth is effectively Jenova 2.0 if you will. He takes Jenova's powers and abilities and combines them with his own immense will. Sephiroth's mind was always the one I percieved as being at the helm, with him being in full control and simply using Jenova as a tool to further his own goals.

Though after seeing what Sephiroth's plans were by AC/C it seems clear that to some extent he posseses Jenova's instincts. So really its more of a merger between them. Sephiroth's will and Jenova' instincts.

The only thing I'm not certain of is whether Sephiroth and Jenova were merged in such a way the whole time, or just AC/C. I'm inclined to believe the latter myself. It would explain why he went from seeking godhood to basicly doing what Jenova did, but given how he used Jenova's cells to ressurect himself its possible that more of her nature could have become rubbed off on the newly reborn Sephiroth.

ANyway, those are my thoughts.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

The fact that Sephiroth is the last thing you fight, rather than Jenova herself seems to support this.

Yeah but, there are a ton of RPGs where the last thing you fight isn't the main villain at all, as well.

 

[Lord Noctis]

Yeah but, there are a ton of RPGs where the last thing you fight isn't the main villain at all, as well.

I suppose thats fair. But then with Sephiroth its not just that he's the last thing you fight, but there also a great deal of build-up towards that point through the whole game. He's not like Necron or Zemus, who only really appear at the end. Sephiroth is there from fairly early on, and he's the one waiting to crush you at the end when all else is said and done.

 

[Master Bates]

What I don't understand is why Shinra never tried to replicate Sephiroth's creation process exactly after it was proven a success.

And I don't mean Genesis/Angeal like, I mean, exactly.

Squeenix

what do you expect

EDIT: Read all the posts

I still don't get Sephiroth

 

[Ite]

All this "will" bullshit never really sat well with me. What, like The Secret? If you want to be alive forever reeeal bad..? It's too fucking abstract and underexplained. It's like saying "Plot! Because magic!" it seems like a goddamn copout.

And all that "vengeful soul can't go into the Lifestream" never made sense, it made the Cave of the Gi an asinine nightmare but at least in the OG it was "Dungeon! Because magic!" and not the whole fucking story. As far as I understand it, Sephiroth 'survived' the Nibelheim incident because he was a human/alien hybrid who is basically made of Mako. Not because he was angry. Where does that leave the people in Corel, Sector 7, Gongaga, and every animal you ever fight on the world map? Were they all at peace? Is this Casper the goddamn friendly ghost?

/drunk

 

[Lord Noctis]

All this "will" bullshit never really sat well with me. What, like The Secret? If you want to be alive forever reeeal bad..? It's too fucking abstract and underexplained. It's like saying "Plot! Because magic!" it seems like a goddamn copout.

And all that "vengeful soul can't go into the Lifestream" never made sense, it made the Cave of the Gi an asinine nightmare but at least in the OG it was "Dungeon! Because magic!" and not the whole fucking story. As far as I understand it, Sephiroth 'survived' the Nibelheim incident because he was a human/alien hybrid who is basically made of Mako. Not because he was angry. Where does that leave the people in Corel, Sector 7, Gongaga, and every animal you ever fight on the world map? Were they all at peace? Is this Casper the goddamn friendly ghost?

/drunk

Yeah. Even in the OG Sephiroth's will was always supposed to be super strong, and is refferenced a lot. But I never really thought of it as being the reason he didn't just die like everybody else. It just makes more sense to assume that Sephiroth survived due to merging with Jenova.

Dark and Divine recently made a post in the headcanon thread which I feel covers it fairly well.

I believe that the reason why Sephiroth's Will is so strong is because it was a hybrid between normal Spirit Energy from Gaia and alien Spirit Energy from Jenova.

If all living creatures have lifestream inside them, then Jenova would have one too, which would be in its essence different from the one in Gaia.

When injected with Jenova cells while still a fetus, Sephiroth became physically one with the cells, while his spirit energy became one with Jenova's spirit energy present in the cells, creating a third kind of Spirit Energy.

And it would be that hybrid lifestream that turned Sephiroth's Will/Spirit so strong that allowed him to overcome Jenova's Will and resisting his dilution in the normal Lifestream.

Of course, after that, his Spirit became even more powerful by absorbing lots of Lifestream during FFVII and by corrupting the Lifestream and creating his own during the time skip between FFVIII and AC/C, but, in its essence, it would be that duality of Sephiroth's will that make it so strong.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

I don't like Sephiroth because unlike some villeins who can claim they didn't know what was really going on, he does. It's canon that he absorbed the knowledge of the Acients when he fell into the Lifestream and that includes who and what Jenova is. Up until that point I can understand why he went crazy, but after that the only one I can blame is him.

As for Jenova's influence, I think there's a big difference between influencing someone and controlling him. I would say that while Sephiroth is not controlled by Jenova (who has been brain-dead for 2,000 years), he is influenced by her. It should be noted that in ACC, his desires are not exactly like Jenova's. Yes, he does want to travel the universe, however, he also wants to control the Lifestream and bring it with him. ACC Sephiroth actually has more in common with Hojo in DoC then he does with Jenova.

 

[OneWingedDemon]

I like Sephiroth.

From the very beginning, he's a legend. His prowess in battle is unmatched. Through Shinra's propaganda, he becomes the dude little kids like Cloud want to be. So even before he goes nuts and kills everyone, he is already presented as someone who's impossible to beat. This is why he's so effective as a looming presence the entire time.

And this image is all we know he has. As he says he has no hometown, no real father figure or family, and we know he's isolated and has always felt different for some reason. Sephiroth certainly looks different that everyone in the game (and then DC happens but I pretend that doesn't exist).

It's not hard to imagine this would be breeding ground for resentment. Considering he was born into Hojo's care and basically made a tool for Shinra to dominate, I can see how in Nibelheim he could turn around and be as angry as he is that he was made to serve when he is (according to him in his madness and anger), their master by birthright.

And then a pipsqueak like Cloud takes him down. And it's not because Cloud is uber powerful, but because Sephiroth is distracted and cannot even fathom that seeing loved ones massacred would give anyone the strength to stand before him. And I mean, even Cloud only manages to take him down because he's distracted and crazy at that point, but still -- this is a nobody. Sephiroth is angry as fuck. So I don't agree that he has nothing really personal against Cloud because Cloud got him where it really hurts: his ego. And he tries all game long to wipe this incident from existence by making Cloud himself not exist -- merely an extension of Sephiroth's will.

I mean, the guy's theme song is "burning inside with violent anger". I think that's where it comes from, twisted and magnified by his own madness of course and his narcissism. I think he's a very effective villain and works great against Cloud (considering Cloud's self-worth issues).

I agree that CC goes poo-poo on a lot and I've come to dislike his portrayal there, though. And while AC doesn't have to deal with the cheesy backstory, it's all madness and malice so.... meh. :\

 

[Max Payne]

Having a personal grudge against someone isn't the same as seeing someone as an equal/rival.

Sephiroth respected Cloud as much as he respected the dirt under his feet.

 

[OneWingedDemon]

Oh, I agree. He totally doesn't really think of any of AVALANCHE as a real threat. And even when Aeris makes a move against him he's pretty chill and confident he can deal with it.

 

[Makoeyes987]

That's the thing, the reasons for Sephiroth's power were so exact and down to a science (unlike by chance, personal ambition, or long term planning, like a lot of powerful antagonist), something Shinra could have easily done twice.

What I don't understand is why Shinra never tried to replicate Sephiroth's creation process exactly after it was proven a success.

And I don't mean Genesis/Angeal like, I mean, exactly.

They didn't need to.

The reason they created Sephiroth in the first place, was because they thought Jenova was a Cetra, and they wanted a Cetra to lead them to the "Promised Land" so they could suck it dry, and reap the profits of abundant Mako sales.

By the time Hojo and Shinra realized the truth about Sephiroth and Jenova, there was already two viable Cetra descendants who would fit the bill, and cost a lot less money to utilize.

Ifalna and Aerith.

Sephiroth being a superhuman weapon of mass destruction wasn't the intent. It was a side effect.

As for his will, most Eastern folklore depicts what we call an "Earth bound" spirit, essentially, a ghost who's determination and will to carry out a specific task, or attachment to life, prevents it from ever passing on. It's common in fantasy and fiction. Sephiroth's overwhelming desire to carry out his will, and the regenerative abilities of his Jenova cells prevented him from not only passing on, but even regenerate his destroyed body thanks to Jenova. It's why he directs the Reunion in the first place, and kills all the remaining Sephiroth Copies who make it there.

For an alien-human hybrid, a normal death is not enough to stop him.

 

[Max Payne]

Sephiroth being a superhuman weapon of mass destruction wasn't the intent. It was a side effect.

Seems like exactly the kind of thing they'd want to reproduce, except better. They only failed with Sephiroth due to lack of empathy, they never truly helped him grow into being a real "human".

If they had created another Sephiroth and helped him learn to care about the people in the company and their ambitions, things could have turned out very differently.

 

[Lord Noctis]

Having a personal grudge against someone isn't the same as seeing someone as an equal/rival.

Sephiroth respected Cloud as much as he respected the dirt under his feet.

This is blatantly false.

Sephiroth clearly respected the dirt more

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Seems like exactly the kind of thing they'd want to reproduce, except better. They only failed with Sephiroth due to lack of empathy, they never truly helped him grow into being a real "human".

If they had created another Sephiroth and helped him learn to care about the people in the company and their ambitions, things could have turned out very differently.

Mako makes a very good point, but this is more along the lines of what I was wondering.

 

[Dawnbreaker]

In relation to the Jenova vs. Sephiroth thing...Just because the designer of a game dictates something (Sephiroth coming out on top) doesn't mean the game's story itself supports it (since Sephiroth apparently does Jenova would do). This is called a writer's recon (I think) and is what happens when a writer can't just accept that their story didn't come out as planned. A good writer would accept it, and even use it to their advantage.

If I follow the actual logic of the story Jenova subverted Sephiroth's mind when he went mad, and there is only a shell of him left, which she uses to try to fulfill her plan. If I follow what the game designers want me to believe then Sephiroth conquered Jenova, she's no more than brain matter, and he just randomly thought her plans sounded good.

Fuck you, Square-enix, so damn confusing. xD

 

[Makoeyes987]

But, if they tried to do that, then they'd have to wait another 20 years for their new Sephiroth to grow up and mature, and between the costs of taking care of him, educating him, training him, etc etc, would it really be worth the effort? Especially when they already a sizable force of SOLDIERs already, and Sephiroth wasn't even their intent?

They probably could, but they were probably just more focused on the sale, distribution and discovery of new Mako energy deposits.

And in regards to Sephiroth's will and Jenova's, I'll only mention one point. The individual goals of each entity.

Jenova's main driving ambition was to merely self-replicate, spreading its virus amongst the Cetra, and destroying anything it could.

Sephiroth's goal was to absorb the collective consciousness of the entire planet, send all life back to the Lifestream, and then restart the planet anew with himself as the creator and master of all souls.

One goal is based on mindless self propagation and destruction, while the other is driven by megalomaniacal vanity. Unless Jenova suddenly decided to shift gears, Sephiroth's will and intent is all his own. He's using the powers of his genetic "mother" to attain a level of existence no living creature ever even dreamed of.

 

[Dawnbreaker]

This confusion comes from, IMO, the conflict over what exactly Shinra is. It's suppose to be an electric company but it goes around conquering countries? Why is an electric company making war? Raising armies? If Sephiroth wasn't designed to be a super-solider, and I agree that the game indicates that, why is he put into the army? Because of said beneficial side-effect? Did Shinra decide to alter their aims once they realized what they had in Sephiroth?

I still think this game is one big MindFuck. Don't get me wrong, I loved it...but I didn't really understand it. xD

Also, in relation to Jenova vs. Sephiroth...I was fairly certain that Jenova's plan was to "go from planet to planet"...and Sephiroth states he wants this too, in AC. I could be wrong though, I don't know nearly enough of the story as I thought I would (apparently three playthroughs isn't enough xD).

 

[Makoeyes987]

Shinra is the perfect example of a corporation that has bought its way unequivocally into government and law enforcement. The mayor of Midgar is literally just a puppet to Shinra.

Basically, everything in FFVII's world became privatized thanks to Shinra being able to literally buy out and own everything in the world. What use is there in a civilian led government, when Shinra literally owns the power, the power grid, the buildings, the land, etc etc? Midgar started out as its own collection of towns and cities but when Shinra finally took control, in order to better organize and fascilitate the distribution of Mako Energy, it just....made it what it was in FFVII, and gave each town a sector name.

Shinra went to war with Wutai because Wutai refused to jump on board the mako train, and give them rights to excavate Mako Energy off their land. They didn't play ball, ergo they were brutally attacked.

Considering that the same energy they use to generate electricity was also discovered to make people superhuman, it only makes sense they'd go into the "private security" business too.

 

[Dawnbreaker]

That is a logical explaination for things. It's actually a good indication of what could happen to our world if the governments gave the energy companies more control. Hopefully people in general will continue to oppose such a foolish distribution of power, else whoh knows what would happen?