If Cloud was black..

[Max Payne]

Oh lolz, I just noticed Arianna's comment.

what the fook

 

[Joker]

Um, Raijin wasn't black...

As much as I hate to admit it, while he would still have been popular (main character and all), Cloud would not have been nearly AS popular were he black. It's the sum total of the previous arguments put forth by the others in this thread, really - catering to a demographic, stereotyping, etc. He would not have been received as well because there's no point of reference - the first thing that pops into someone's head when they hear the word "black guy" isn't anything remotely resembling "emo". Whether or not he's supposed to be the hero is irrelevant - while there are f=very few black heroes/heroines in games, the fact that there ARE some still remains.

Simply put, had he been black, he could not have been the same Cloud. His personality, history, all that...it simply doesn't fit. You can argue that it wouldn't matter all you want - in an ideal world, yes, you would be correct. Because things like race SHOULDN'T matter. Even the fact that that is the way that you think is a sign of progress. But don't be foolish enough to think that the rest of the world is so forward thinking as that.

Semi-sequitur: This would be a great time for me to go find that video from the '08 presidential campaigns - it was of a rally held in Iowa (or Ohio, I forget which) for McCain, where the people being asked their thoughts on Obama dropped some of the most ridiculous racial bullcrappery I've ever heard ("He hates us because we're white", etc). But that's somewhat irrelevant to the subject at hand, so I cba.

That said...someday, when I cba, I plan to finish the script/scenario/whatever for the game I've been wanting to make for ages, wherein the main character IS black (well, biracial, at least), and most of the supporting cast are of varying ethnicities...to a small extent because I'm trying to be all "c'mon ethnic diversity", but more because it works with the characters. They're such that their race doesn't matter, so I choose the ones I do because it also fits my ideals (equality, unity, harmony, etc.) and one of the general themes to the game.

Though it does intentionally play into the "white > black" stereotype in an important way, it is for an equally important reason - to subvert those expectations.

/semi-sequitur

 

[Max Payne]

For fuck's sake. Cloud wasn't "emo" in FF7, that's got fuck all to do with it

Simply put, had he been black, he could not have been the same Cloud. His personality, history, all that...it simply doesn't fit. You can argue that it wouldn't matter all you want - in an ideal world, yes, you would be correct. Because things like race SHOULDN'T matter. Even the fact that that is the way that you think is a sign of progress. But don't be foolish enough to think that the rest of the world is so forward thinking as that..

How the hell would his history and personality not fit because he'd be black? That makes no sense man.

 

[Makoeyes987]

He sure looked black to me with the brown skin. Considering his nose and lips, he's either black, or biracial.

And excuse me? Emo? Wtf are you talking about? Cloud is not emo, nor does he have anything in common with the scene as it was in 1996. Are you seriously trying to attribute that Western music subculture to a Japanese created character? Do you know what emo even means?

What part of Cloud's history and storyline has anything to do with him being white and blond? It'd be nice if you pony'd up some evidence because you're making absolutely no sense. Cloud's race has nothing to do with his character or past in FFVII. If anything would be different it'd be his critical and fan reception. Not his integration into the plot. There'd be no change in his story. He'd still be Cloud in terms of the story of FFVII.

 

[Masamune]

@Mack -

I argued that Kiros is a token black guy on the basis he is the only one in the game. That's why it's a recurring theme, because creators will drop a solitary black person in a game/movie/etc and that's their quota. This immediately raises eyebrows, and the character is tagged as the token minority. Whether they intended or not, it's still pretty fishy.

Also, if Square were open to a black protagonist, why on earth haven't we seen one? Cloud could have been, Squall could have been, Tidus etc etc. They haven't done it because of the demographic and pre-conceptions of black ethnicity. The black guy isn't going to be the sensitive pretty boy who saves the day.

I also find it amusing people DON'T think Barret is influenced by Mr.T. The hair, the beard, the hot-headed, boorish personality. Perhaps Nomura caught some of the A-Team and it just got lodged into his subconscious.

 

[Cthulhu]

Because people just don't see black people carry around massive swords or have such personalities. It's got nothing to do with color, as far as I know, but more with upbringing, culture, etcetera.

Also, this topic is derailing very fast, which is obvious, it being a rather debatable subject and whatnot.

Here's a better subject: What if Cloud was Frisian?

 

[Shademp]

Indeed, Cloud was not 'emo'. He had his issues, although unique to some extent, just like other characters had their separatee issues.

If Cloud were/was (correct my english here) black... He probably wouldn't have blonde hair.
I don't see the point here really. There are infinite "what if" scenarios we can imagine, so few being supported by knowledge of the developers' intentions with a character that we can't counterweigh how this would affect each character's intended purpose. So...meh. Cloud is white. Barret is black. Aeris is pink.

 

[Max Payne]

Except Barret doesn't really look like Mr. T, doesn't act like him at all really. Durr he's angry, so what? He had plenty reason to be angry. The creators outright admitted Mr. T was used as a base for anything.

Fucking look at Mr. T for chrissakes.

 

[Cthulhu]

Mr. T does teleshopping now, so he's totally lost any credibility. With that, Barrett has become more like Mr. T than Mr. T has, .

Speaking of, doesn't Mr. T have a regular name?

 

[Masamune]

Except Barret looks little like Mr. T, doesn't act like him at all really. Durr he's angry, so what? He had plenty reason to be angry. The creators outright admitted Mr. T was used as a base for anything.

Fucking look at Mr. T for chrissakes.

The creators justifying a character's personality doesn't stop them being a stereotype, Dacon. It doesn't mean they didn't base him off Mr.T in the design process. Barret & Mr.T are both loud and reckless characters. Add that to their appearance, and it's too convenient for my liking.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I argued that Kiros is a token black guy on the basis he is the only one in the game. That's why it's a recurring theme, because creators will drop a solitary black person in a game/movie/etc and that's their quota. This immediately raises eyebrows, and the character is tagged as the token minority. Whether they intended or not, it's still pretty fishy.

To be a token minority you have to not just be the only one, you have to be there for the explicit purpose of being the minority. Your race has to be an issue. It just so happens Kiros is the only definitive black character there. I still say Raijin is black or at the very least biracial. He's clearly ethnic. So I don't think you can call his inclusion tokenism. If Kiros was speaking urban ethnic slang everytime he opened his mouth, eating fried chicken, and playing into numerous black stereotypes, you'd have a point. But him just being black is not tokenism. Its just him being black in FFVIII.

Also, if Square were open to a black protagonist, why on earth haven't we seen one? Cloud could have been, Squall could have been, Tidus etc etc. They haven't done it because of the demographic and pre-conceptions of black ethnicity. The black guy isn't going to be the sensitive pretty boy who saves the day.

I said that the gains and openness were slow you know I think Square's open but not perfect. Like I said, I don't expect it now, but I wouldn't be surprised in the future. And I'm sure it *would* happen in the future. But racial and cultural conceptions and status quo are not easily broken.

I also find it amusing people DON'T think Barret is influenced by Mr.T. The hair, the beard, the hot-headed, boorish personality. Perhaps Nomura caught some of the A-Team and it just got lodged into his subconscious.

Have you watched the A-Team? Mr. T has a quasi-mohawk. He wears obnoxious, over sized gold jewelery. He smokes cigars. Barret looks nothing like Mr. T at all, and its kind of ignorant to say that. Their face and features look nothing alike. The only real similarity is the lack of much of top clothing, a beard and being physically muscled. They're both hot-headed, but if you play FFVII, you'll see *why* he's so filled with anger towards Shinra. He's filled with pain over the loss of his wife, town and livelihood. And despite that rough exterior and anger, there's a kind, and gentle father who does everything for his daughter and learns a lot through his meeting with the characters.

 

[Arianna]

Simply put, had he been black, he could not have been the same Cloud. His personality, history, all that...it simply doesn't fit. You can argue that it wouldn't matter all you want - in an ideal world, yes, you would be correct. Because things like race SHOULDN'T matter.

True - this is what I'm trying to get at. I'm sorry if how I tried to convey my meaning before was still not as delicate as some would have liked. ForceStealer, perhaps you were right before I said 'keep hope alive,' as I thought my post was clear but also very optimistic about the whole thing. I'm still going to try to explain myself.

Mako - I was meaning with the 'human' comment - was the black people are people too; in this, if Cloud was black, I feel it would have broken through stereotyping. 'Black Cloud' actually could be 'emo' - here's the thing, when you think of a black person, do you think of someone who's very emotional? I cannot speak for you... This is what I was meaning. Stereotyping influences all areas of our lives, for better or for worse.

Sadly, everyone has biases towards at least one other 'group' of human being - be it fat people, thin people, black people, white people, Asian people, you name it, there is someone out there who hates them, and for probably no real reason other than they were taught their prejudices or had their own bad personal experiences with a member or a few of said group.

While this is very sad, it's how it is right now; and Omega has it right - in a perfect world, differences such as looks wouldn't matter. But, children are born to parents who can only teach them what they know, and if that's hatred - so be it, as sad as it is. Also, people have their own experiences, good and bad, that do and will influence them - it takes a great deal of personal understanding, discipline and insight to control that. Sometimes people do things, and they don't even know what their doing is 'bad' or 'negative' in some form or fashion.

Anyhow - again, my words here or in my first post were not meant to incite. I did indeed feel I put things delicately, but perhaps there are better ways that I could have handled it - but did not know how at the time.

Have you watched the A-Team? Mr. T has a quasi-mohawk. He wears obnoxious, over sized gold jewelery. He smokes cigars. Barret looks nothing like Mr. T at all, and its kind of ignorant to say that. Their face and features look nothing alike. The only real similarity is the lack of much of top clothing, a beard and being physically muscled. They're both hot-headed, but if you play FFVII, you'll see *why* he's so filled with anger towards Shinra. He's filled with pain over the loss of his wife, town and livelihood. And despite that rough exterior and anger, there's a kind, and gentle father who does everything for his daughter and learns a lot through his meeting with the characters.

Actually, I don't remember much of the A-Team; personally, such shows were never my favorites to watch. Still, since I was child during the 80s, a lot of what I do remember of him was the 'stay in school'. We can disagree, but I still say he has a lot of Mr. T characteristics - of course, with his own back story. I can see the gruffness, the strength in body, and also the caring heart, all as similarities. I don't think it's 'ignorant' to compare the two, as well; though personal, when I compare Barret with Mr. T, it's all for good!

 

[Max Payne]

That sounds like bullshit to me. I find it unlikely that the majority of the populace in japan has ever even heard of Mr. T, much less back in the 1990s during the game's development. You're just making an assumption.

Barret isn't really reckless, he does take the time to try and plan out his groups next moves, and he takes his friends well being into consideration. He cares for his daughter more than anything, wears his emotions on his sleeve, and he does his best to look after he friends. That make him a lot more different than Mr. T as far as I'm concerned.

I have yet to see any overbearing similarities in their appearance either.

I mean, they look pretty damn different to me, sure their hair looks similar, but Barret's hair is still has it's own touch.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I honestly think you were trying too hard to be delicate Arriana, and that made you make an awkward statement.

You don't have to walk on eggshells so much. And yes, I would think of a black character as emotional. I mean, I'm not sure what preconceived stereotypes you've seen or have heard of regarding black characters but that's not exactly one of them. Everything else though, I agree with and understand.

@Dacon

Their hair looks nothing alike. Barret has a crew cut, while Mr. T has a quasi-mohawk thing going on at the top. And in the A Team he still had the hair on the side of his head as well.

Seriously, they look nothing alike, and saying so is just ridiculous. They both are black, and have beards. That's where it ends. Not all black, bearded people look alike.

 

[Max Payne]

They're big and angry too.

 

[Makoeyes987]

So do people compare Cid's gruffness and chain smoking to Hannibal from the A-Team? Or his anger and foul mouth to any of the hundred of gruff white guy characters in fiction?

I mean seriously, that in and of itself is a rather absurd, racial double standard right there.

 

[Arianna]

Speaking of, doesn't Mr. T have a regular name?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mr_T

Laurence Tureaud

So do people compare Cid's gruffness and chain smoking to Hannibal from the A-Team? Or his anger and foul mouth to any of the hundred of gruff white guy characters in fiction?

I think Amano's picture of a pirate was supposed to be Cid; if that's the case, I can see a stereotypical pirate (foul mouth, (somewhat) poor manners, love of the ship above almost all else).

 

[Masamune]

You're quite literally picking hairs there, Mack. =P They're mohawks don't need to be identical, nor everything else about them. The hair, the beard, the physique, and personality are enough to make the connection. Where did I ever say they were carbon copies of one another?

And his backstory gives reason to his personality, but it doesn't stop it being based on a stereotype.

Lastly, I guess if Barret looked nothing like Mr.T, Nomura & co wouldn't have tried to avert this in AC?

 

[Max Payne]

.....

He doesn't look like Mr. T in AC.

Any similarity between the two is more than likely coincidence.

 

[Masamune]

.....

He doesn't look like Mr. T in AC.

Any similarity between the two is more than likely coincidence.

Did you read what I said, Dac? Nomura admitted that Barret looks like Mr.T which is why they gave him a certain makeover in AC.

 

[Max Payne]

What? I remember Nomura saying that they never understood the Mr. T comparisons, because he wasn't based off him.

They changed everyone's look in AC, dramatically, since none of them are no longer anime styled. I doubt Barret's look was changed because of Mr. T complaints alone. If they changed his look at all because of that, they did it because they were tired of these insipid comparisons, not because he actually looked like Mr. T.

 

[Tennyo]

Mr. T, Mr. T, blah blah blah. I don't see how Barret being based on him is relevant. If Mr. T were white and Barret was still based off of him would people even care? No probably not.

I hate how people are so obsessed with race. It shouldn't matter. It's used for both good and bad and as an excuse to not do anything with your life. How about we just focus on people being people?

A good character is a good character in my opinion.

 

[Arianna]

What? I remember Nomura saying that they never understood the Mr. T comparisons, because he wasn't based off him.

It just could be a very, very interesting coincidence that Mr. T and Barret seems to share physical and a few mental characteristics. Perhaps they did not know of Mr. T! As they say, truth is stranger than fiction...

A good character is a good character in my opinion.

I agree with you, Tennyo.

 

[Masamune]

I never said they changed him on that alone... I said he was given a specific makeover because of it:

"Barret is often compared to a certain "A-Team" member (laughs), so we were racking our brains to try and take him in a different direction this time. We went with Nozue's suggestions for hair, and Naora designed his costume." (Nomura)

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Did you read what I said, Dac? Nomura admitted that Barret looks like Mr.T which is why they gave him a certain makeover in AC.

I think I remember that interview myself. Someone dig it up! EDIT: (already done)

And while Mr. T and Barrett aren't too much alike, I've heard the comparison so many times in ten years it's staggering. Maybe we don't see the similarity, but apparently a lot of other people do.