If Cloud was black..

Max Payne

Banned
AKA
Leon S. Kennedy,Terry Bogard, The Dark Knight, Dacon, John Marston, Teal'c
I never said they changed him on that alone... I said he was given a specific makeover because of it:

So? What's your point? That doesn't mean he shares any kinds of overbearing similarities to him, nor is that Nomura admitting that he looks like Mr. T as you said.
 

Cat Rage Room

Great Old One
AKA
Mog
Like I said, apparently not, but a shitload of people think he does. I know what you're about to say "it doesn't matter because he isn't", but when it comes to an entertainment medium, or pretty much anything else that's judged and exposed to public opinion, impressions can mean just as much as intentions.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
I don't understand how expecting there to be some definitive resemblance and parallel between appearances is picking hairs. Barret has no mohawk. A crew cut is not a mohawk. If there isn't even a nebulous resemblance or shared feature between the two, how can they resemble? A beard, and large physique is no where near enough to pass as a resemblance. That's rather absurd.

And by that logic, black men in media can't be angry then? Context is everything and for a feature to be a stereotype it has to be simple and cliche, with no context or narrative value other than to distinguish the character as the minority their stereotype portrays. When the stereotype is actually explained, justified, and portrayed as not being present as merely an ethnic tell-tale, then it becomes a legitimate characteristic. By your logic, any Asian that's depicted in media that's intelligent, no matter how in context and justified their accomplishments are..is a stereotype. A stereotype that isn't just "there" with no value, ceases to become one. It becomes the viewer's responsibility not to judge or see the character as a stereotype once the author validates their character's depiction. Otherwise, there'd be a limiting box for what characters of each race can and cannot do because of fear of stereotypes.

And its not Nomura's fault people have a tendency to draw ignorant and inconsistent racial stereotypes based on appearance :monster: It's in his best interest to try to avert that, even when its not his design intention. They did not admit they made him look like Mr. T, that he looks like Mr. T, or that that A-Team character was the inspiration. They admitted that the comparison had been stated and thus they tried to further Barret away from it. All they did was speak the truth.

And if that's all it takes to for a character to resemble another, then Cid is clearly a rip off of Hannibal.
 
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Buster Sword

Pro Adventurer
Mr. T, Mr. T, blah blah blah. I don't see how Barret being based on him is relevant. If Mr. T were white and Barret was still based off of him would people even care? No probably not.

I hate how people are so obsessed with race. It shouldn't matter. It's used for both good and bad and as an excuse to not do anything with your life. How about we just focus on people being people?

A good character is a good character in my opinion.

We all wish for the world to think that way love, it's just not going to ever happen.
 

Cat Rage Room

Great Old One
AKA
Mog
I don't understand how expecting there to be some definitive resemblance and parallel between appearances is picking hairs. Barret has no mohawk. A crew cut is not a mohawk. If there isn't even a nebulous resemblance or shared feature between the two, how can they resemble? A beard, and large physique is no where near enough to pass as a resemblance. That's rather absurd.

FACT: Many people who aren't of a certain race think members of said race look alike. Seriously, a lot of white people think most black people look the same , the same way many Western people think Asians look the same.
 

Max Payne

Banned
AKA
Leon S. Kennedy,Terry Bogard, The Dark Knight, Dacon, John Marston, Teal'c
FACT: Many people who aren't of a certain race think members of said race look alike. Seriously, a lot of white people think most black people look the same , the same way many Western people think Asians look the same.

Well, this is true. Especially among younger people of different races.

Luckily there seems to be a large group of people who feel differently too.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
Notorious M.O.G. (I refuse to address you by that new name XD ) hit the core on why Mr. T and Barret are compared. That's racial ignorance if anything. Because clearly they do not look alike and share only the vaguest of vague similarities.

I don't hear Cid or Tifa constantly being compared to other characters in media because of vague similarities in appearance. That's rather interesting. :monster:
 

looneymoon

they/them
AKA
Rishi
Facepalm at this topic.

If Cloud were black the only thing that maybe weird is his overall design. Blonde hair and the purple clothes would clash with darker skin.

Plus, from what I've seen of the show, doesn't Afro Samurai fit the same stoic, brooding badass stereotype Cloud falls somewhat under? So it's not really unthinkable to have a character like Cloud who is black. I'm sure there are other precedents that I can't think of atm.


and also, Barret > Mr T.
 

Masamune

Fiat Lux
AKA
Masa
All I can is myself - and copious amounts of people out there - think Barret shares a resemblance to Mr.T. I'm not going to argue over details because we both know what they look like. I also don't think it has anything to do with race. Myself and Dacon had the very same debate over Vayne from FFXII and Baran from Hokuto no Ken.
 

Cthulhu

Administrator
AKA
Yop
Not only is there the generalization in the relatively easy thing like faces, but also in terms of behaviour. When I think of black people, I think of the type that walks around in Harlem or whatever hoods you have, popping caps, representing that hood, and walking with their trousers down their pants. That's one large subgroup often associated with a certain racial group (and taken over by white people, which just doesn't look the same).

There's loads more similar subcultures, often (but not always) associated with skin color and other physical attributes. Large, loud, butch and black is another set of distinct features, which appears in both Barrett and Mr. T and a whole lot of large black people in one way or another.

Generalizing / abstractizing people into certain groups and, as such, similarities is a natural process in humans - it's an efficient storage mechanism, which limits the amount of storage required to store information about a certain person. Same with faces, same with behaviour, same with subcultures, etcetera.

All Dutch are cheap, all Americans are fat, all Russians drink vodka like there's no tomorrow (which there isn't above the polar circle btw), Belgians are dumb, Germans eat bratwurst and beer, Japs are nuts, Ozzies only eat kangaroomeat off the barbie, and Barrett looks and acts like Mr. T minus the infomercials.

Thar.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
Masamune said:
All I can is myself - and copious amounts of people out there - think Barret shares a resemblance to Mr.T. I'm not going to argue over details because we both know what they look like.

No they really don't. And its funny that these copious amounts of people use these vague similarities to pin a resemblance between Barret and Mr. T, but those same nebulous and vague similarities aren't used at all to try and compare Cid and John "Hannibal" Smith.





See? Total resemblance.

@Cthulhu

But then that's the viewer's, and arguably society's responsibility to not stereotype and think outside of their limited experience and cultural box. If everyone just took the road of intellectual and cultural laziness, then there would never been any gains at all in regards to racial, cultural or gender understanding. If that's how people see ethnic groups, rather than looking at the individual and past stereotypes, something is wrong with them. They need to think outside of their limited thinking and get more culture.
 

A

Great Old One
I can't help but find this topic a bit amusing.

I don't think it'd really matter if Cloud were to be black. I mean, we have plenty of games that feature African-Americans as the leading roles, and all those games have been a huge success. It's not like the plotline would change if Cloud were to be black....

And yes. Barret > Mr. T.
 

Cat Rage Room

Great Old One
AKA
Mog
No they really don't. And its funny that these copious amounts of people use these vague similarities to pin a resemblance between Barret and Mr. T, but those same nebulous and vague similarities aren't used at all to try and compare Cid and John "Hannibal" Smith.





See? Total resemblance.

To some black people I know (or, anyone that isn't white), they WOULD see a total resemblance because to many non white people, all white people look alike. Hell, to ME, most white people look pretty similar (I'm not white, obviously). I STILL have a hard time telling my (white) girlfriends family apart from one another. A lot of them, in my eyes, literally look the same, and I consider myself a well versed person in cultural and racial matters, even more so since I'm of more than one race myself.

@Cthulhu

But then that's the viewer's, and arguably society's responsibility to not stereotype and think outside of their limited experience and cultural box. If everyone just took the road of intellectual and cultural laziness, then there would never been any gains at all in regards to racial, cultural or gender understanding. If that's how people see ethnic groups, rather than looking at the individual and past stereotypes, something is wrong with them. They need to think outside of their limited thinking and get more culture.

Yeah well, whaddya gonna do? :monster: Don't get me wrong, you're right, and we should strive towards that, but let's not forget the reality of the current situation.
 

Masamune

Fiat Lux
AKA
Masa
Then I guess you're forgetting the argument that Gackt looks like Nomura's bishounens, based on the same proof you're talking about.

You don't think that the lack of black characters in video games also has anything to do with it? I guess it's hard to debate this, because you don't see any similarity, but for the only black dude of FFVII to look like the most popular A-Team character is bound to make him a famous stereotype.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
That's my point, MOG. It has nothing to do with actual, real similarities or resemblances in their appearance or character but rather casting an ignorant, haphazard eye in terms of spotting the differences and real appearances of people of a differing ethnic group. No one who seriously looks at Barret and then Mr. T would say they look similar. Likewise no one would seriously say Cid and Hannibal look similar either. Their "similarities" are only the most vague, and nebulous superficial features of their looks. Which hardly counts as a similarity of any merit.

People can be unconsciously racist, prejudice or ignorant of another ethnic group, and it can manifest itself in subtle, unconscious ways. No person is perfect but its their responsibility to make the change and try to open their mind when it gets called to their attention or they realize it exists.

And yes, that sadly is the current situation, but if we become complacent with how things are now, and the status quo, we won't continue to change for the better. Racial relations and relations between the sexes now are better than they have been. But they still have a ways to go, and its thinking like that which could slow, stop or even reverse the gains that the people before us have made.

@Masamune

Gackt looks like two. Not numerous. And considering one character (Squall) was wearing an outfit nearly identical to the outfit Gackt wore in the "Illuminati" music video he made while he was a member of Malice Mizer, there's more than enough credence and fact to justify those two being compared. That is not the same thing. If Barret had the same outfit or jewelry Mr. T wore, then you'd have a case. But you don't. Their "resemblances" are vague and very, very minor.

Barret may be the only black guy in FFVII but he is hardly a stereotype if you look at his role in the story and importance to the plot. Again, him being black and the only one is not a stereotype. It's what they do with his character that determines whether or not he's justifiably placed within the narrative or is merely there to fill a racial quota.
 
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Masamune

Fiat Lux
AKA
Masa
I think Mako has a point, it's just in the wrong topic. I can safely say with complete confidence I don't think Barret & Mr.T are similar because they're both black. That's just racist. As the other debate I had with Dacon proves, it's entirely subjective whether you make a comparison or not. And wouldn't that actually contradict the argument, because Dacon was arguing against the comparison between Vayne & Baran and he's a black guy? I don't think race is relevant here.

Also, what the hell, Mako? I guess Gackt having a fur trim on his jacket and brown hair makes him a dead ringer for Squall.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
Well if you take away their black skin color, what's left? Because there is seriously not much between Barret and Mr. T in terms of appearance. There's plenty of other large, buff and angry characters in media. Mr. T doesn't have a patent on it XD. What about Arnold Schwarzenegger? He's buff, has a crew cut, and if you give him a good beard, like in Predator, there you go :monster:

Honestly, I see the resemblance between Vayne & Baran btw :monster:

Masamune said:
Also, what the hell, Mako? I guess Gackt having a fur trim on his jacket and brown hair makes him a dead ringer for Squall.

If I remember correctly, Gackt also had the belt buckle, the gloves, and even a scar. It's been awhile since I watched it. I don't think Gackt and Squall look physically alike in the face, but I do think that there were some design qualities in terms of Gackt's appearance in that video that Nomura used to make Squall. I think Squall has more of a slight resemblance to River Phoenix in terms of his face and appearance, but dress wise, I totally can see the Gackt comparison.
 

Dee

sweet dee
AKA
Bun, Academic
If Cloud was black, he wouldn't be Japanese anymore; therefore, he would have a larger penis. He could also run faster and jump higher. And slam dunk hard enough to break the glass.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
Not funny Dee. Try harder. :monster:

Please spam somewhere else on the internets. First warning given.
 
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