SPOILERS If Genesis does return, how would you like to see him handled?

[X-SOLDIER]

I mean... I see absolutely nothing wrong with letting him continue to be an overly eloquently-spoken, poetry-reading, bodily disintegrating guy who's intentionally overemphasizing his own cool factor by going by a mononym with his new friends, and is haunted by an inner darkness that reflects that of the other half who he's also the complete thematic opposite of, but really is just the other side of the same coin.

Like, there's a reason that everything about Genesis was the thematic template for the character V in DMCV, and that all worked just fine.

You don't need to change anything about Genesis at all when including him, he'll update into the modern version of the story just fine when they add him in.

There are a lot of thematically interesting nuances to the ways that he's a mirror to Sephiroth that defines a lot of specifics about the scope of Sephiroth's own self, but there are a LOT of important thematic parallels that he helps to define with the Deepground stuff, and how those things all link together. It'll be interesting to see if they even need to involve him directly since he's not really active until after Sephiroth and the other Planetary avatars are go dormant, or if they'll cover the same facets with him in another way since his bits are mostly all outside of the scope of Cloud's story, and the elements that he represents are pretty heavily covered in other characters for the original game's story.

I assume that we'll get little bits and pieces in Ever Crisis that might help get a sense of how much those elements will matter.



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[Sephiroth Crescent]

He can be single-handedly handled, I tell ya. But I rather not see him during my time with REMAKE. Not that I despise him or anything, though.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Basically, he shouldn't be shoehorned.

 

[Odysseus]

I wonder if more compilation centric things might happen in DLC episodes that take place away from the purview of the original plot? Maybe we'll get FF7 Remake Ingratiated, Staring Vincent Valentine where he beats up Gackt for making his game difficult to port.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

I think another thing that's important to remember about Remake is that Yuffie's & Vincent's characters were completed enough not to cut them out of the original game, but not enough to make them non-optional characters like the rest of the party. So, Remake will be the first time that they actually get to have their elements fully developed into a part of the story.

As a result of that, I think that the current situation with Wutai & the elements of Shinra that relate to Deepground are gonna be logically expanded upon here and there like with the new experiments and stuff under the Sector 7 Slums. There're a lot of pieces between Vincent's & Cloud's stories that overlap like Hojo & Lucrecia being Sephiroth's parents, but I think that they're just going to be facets of everything else that are points along the way. Those things being "new" are really just what let their character arcs hit all of the same points that the other characters get with their backstory stuff like Barret does with Shinra, North Corel, & Dyne.

I think that the most important details for Vincent's story are gonna be around how it connects to the struggles that Cloud has against remaining disconnected in hopelessness after loss. Zack's story with Genesis is ultimately around struggling to save someone – but that also not panning out as a totally positive end result. Then Vincent chooses to back off, and then things just get worse because he didn't stop Hojo, which not only lead to Sephiroth, but also amplified things with Deepground linking back to Genesis. That helps to define Vincent's story as a sort of predecessor and reflection of Cloud's struggle in how it links both to his relationship with Zack and also with Sephiroth.

Vincent's always been interesting in how closely his story connects to Cloud and the main game without directly stepping on its toes. It'll be interesting to see how close Remake actually gets with that, and how much character side-story stuff we might get to see along with that. Yuffie is about the only character who makes sense to have an entry point via DLC, but honestly, I'm not at all opposed if Remake decides to have some FFXV-type moments where a character or two goes off for a little bit from the main party, and we get to see what they were doing when certain moments are ones that Cloud wasn't necessarily along for.

The only thing with Genesis is that I'm not sure if there's an opportunity to see anything with him that's active, since he's very much contained out of the picture despite being related to a bunch of the science and stuff around SOLDIER.

If anything, I think that Remake might build the last few bits of context that are needed to make Genesis' character really work well, while also keeping those things as elements that help to define the line of what's fallen into Vincent's side of Shinra's darkness and out of Cloud's story.



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[thelastmagus]

Not a huge fan of Genesis tbh. I feel he bogged down the story a bit and was basically there because the rock star Gackt was huge at the time (and still is, although he's mostly that grumpy old rocker dude who complains about "dem kids needin to get off their lawns" if recent news is to be believed).

But still, if he MUST return, I do feel that he has been inextricably written into the story of the compilation and you would have people who were pissy about his inclusion and people who were pissy about his exclusion. I like the idea of say, encountering Deepground combatants and them murmuring about reuniting/whatever with Genesis with the same fervour as Sephiroth's clones. Or perhaps Cloud learns about what happened with Genesis during CC all over again - he was there during the time, but his memory is muddled, so there's the opportunity for him to come across say, certain classified documents and/or have Sephiroth/Zack/whomever in the Remake explain to him why Genesis is a big deal. Maybe keep him obscured in shadow, still a threat but nowhere near as much of a threat as Sephiroth. There's ways to write sub-villains like that and Genesis could be perhaps be degraded beyond belief, who has similar abilities to Sephiroth (i.e., shape-shifting on a cellular level to mimic appearances but never being able to make perfect copies due to the flaws with the G cells) and does not care for Sephiroth and Jenova's plans - he just wants the world to burn, in contrast to Cloud et al who want to save the world.

 

[ultima786]

I feel he bogged down the story a bit and was basically there because the rock star Gackt was huge at the time (and still is, although he's mostly that grumpy old rocker dude who complains about "dem kids needin to get off their lawns" if recent news is to be believed).

Is he wrong?

 

[Wol]

Simple. I wouldn't like to see him handled at all.

Kek

But if he was, ideally he would be killed in the first millisecond, stomped by a Weapon.

If they want him to work, they have to reboot his entire concept.

Genesis, brother of Exodus and Leviticus, the three grand Cetra sages. The ones Sephiroth corrupted to create his clones in the movie.

Think about any scenario, and it would be automatically better. It's amazing.

 

[Sephiroth Crescent]

But if he was, ideally he would be killed in the first millisecond, stomped by a Weapon.

Objection!
No Weapon is fast like that! Not even Quicksilver Weapon.

Spoiler

 

[Lestat]

Ok he would slowly be stepped on by a weapon then.
Like really slowly.
Like watching his own guys be compressed outside his body slowly.

 

[Clement Rage]

Genesis was exactly what he was supposed to be. There' nothing wrong with how he's written or acted or his role in the plot or anything.

 

[Roundhouse]

I think the best idea that has come up here is Genesis as the sort of shadowy guide/helper. Near the end of the game he can then fully reveal himself and join the party properly, where he takes on a Morpheus-like role from Matrix. He would give a great, poetic speech on the night before they attack Sephiroth, borrowing Morpheus lines and modifying them. Picture them all surrounding him as he gives his speech, with Zack standing there proudly, along with Weiss and Sonon and everyone.

'All of our lives, we have fought this crisis. Tonight I believe we can end it. Tonight is not an accident. There are no accidents. We have not come here by chance. I do not believe in chance. When I see my brother Weiss here, with my other brother Zack, I do not see coincidence, I see providence. I see purpose. I believe it our fate to be here. It is our destiny. I believe this night holds for each and every one of us, the very meaning of our lives.'

*Everyone cheers*

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Genesis was exactly what he was supposed to be.

Was he, though? 'Cause some folks seem really sure that we're supposed to see him as redeemed because Zack ate an apple with him or something.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

Was he, though? 'Cause some folks seem really sure that we're supposed to see him as redeemed because Zack ate an apple with him or something.

I always took that dumbapple eating scene to be a symbolic reuniting of Genesis, Angeal, & Sephiroth.
• Genesis was still alive
• Angeal was only survived by a clone
• Sephiroth was dead (in a crystal in the North Crater) but Zack was always stepping in for Sephiroth's missions involving his friends

That's why it's after that point when Angeal's dream of saving his friend finally gets achieved, so his spirit comes to rest. Genesis always wanted to be recognized by someone, and since he was he goes into his loosely-conscious state. That's why Zack's own dream is the one that moves on from there, gets cut short, and then falls into Cloud's story, while also coming to link up to the trailing thread of Sephiroth's connection to everything.

Genesis isn't really redeemed. He's definitely still an issue, but just... in a way that's circumstantially sort of able to be comfortably ignored if that's where they wanted to leave his character. Like, everything with Deepground literally doesn't impact him at all, so he's not gonna take part in anything unless there's something new to address – which now there likely is with the "Unknown Sephiroth" doing what he's doing.



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[Obsidian Fire]

The issue with "redemption" plots is that if the person "deserves" to be redeemed, then they don't need a redemption plot in the first place. A character can only be "set up" for a redemption plot if they did something wrong that they realize was wrong that they feel need to "make up" for.

And Genesis... kinda qualifies as getting one, but also kinda doesn't. It would be better to say that his relationship with Zack gets "restored" at the end and they work out their differences (in a fight where Genesis uses all the same attacks/abilities he does at the Junon Canon fight no less). Two people who were once antagonists are now no longer antagonists... and that doesn't exactly make for a "redemption" plot exactly.

At least, not with the current information we have. Genesis is on the side of the Planet... but he didn't exactly hurt it in any way before hand. The Planet... pretty much realized Genesis had a goal that was... concurrent... with itself and decided Genesis would be more useful if he didn't die. Genesis isn't "making up" for anything (as far as I can tell). He's doing what he's always wanted to do; stay true to his own honor code and protect what needs to be protected.

 

[Shademp]

If it weren't for that godforsaken Q&A section from the Crisis Core Ultimania, I would never in a million years consider that maybe the authors desired us to view Genesis as redeemable.

Revisiting the Crisis Core script I feel that I now have at least a better understanding of why the story takes this turn where Zack desires to save Genesis. Moreso than even Dirge of Cerberus, the script of Crisis Core is written in such a way that it's difficult for me to absorb the plot, the themes and the character motivations all at the same time.

NINJA'd: X-SOLDIER summarized it better than I could have, but I'll post my piece anyway.

Spoiler: Crisis Core Chapter 9, Gongaga, ruined Mako Reactor

Lazard: I never dreamed I’d be turned into an Angeal copy.

Zack: Well, just be happy you’re linked to Project G.

Lazard: It’s a strange feeling...

Zack: Hm?

Lazard: The lust for vengeance that had so consumed
my life is all but gone now.

Lazard: In its place...

Lazard: is a desire to help you, a desire to save Genesis...
Lazard: No, it’s bigger than that.
I...I want to save the world.

Zack: Nothing strange about that.
Zack: Angeal lives inside you.

Lazard: Genesis is trying to obtain the "gift of the goddess,"
but what is it, exactly?
Lazard: No, whatever it is, he must be stopped.

Zack: I just don’t understand what he’s talking about at all.
What should I do?

Lazard: Angeal may show us the way...perhaps.

Zack: Maybe... I hope so, Director.

Lazard: Heh, "Director"...
Lazard: So, Zack, what is your dream?

Zack: Huh? Oh, let’s see...
Zack: To become a hero!

Lazard: Humph, unattainable dreams are the best kind.

Zack: Oh, come on! Lend me a hand!
You and Angeal both.
Zack: If we pull this off, we’ll all be heroes!
At the very least, I’d feel like one!

Spoiler: Chapter 10, Banora underground

*Zack picks up an old newspaper article*

First Prize: Banora White Juice​

Processed Foods Category, National Agriculture Awards​

Zack: Wow...

"The idea to make this juice came from​

a Banora youth named Genesis."​

Zack: Wow, just wow!

"Genesis’s comments: I am very honored."​

"Banora White juice tastes great, but the fruit​

itself is quite tasty as well."​

"My dream is for my parents and me to serve​

the hero Sephiroth our apples one day."​

"Since we are close in age, I would like to​

show him what I’ve accomplished in my life."​

Zack: Genesis...
Zack: Is there anything I can do to save him...?

I've been focusing so much on the larger picture, asking why on earth the authors could possibly consider Genesis redeemable and worth saving, that I didn't see it's ALL about Zack's character motivation.

Lazard is the one who plants the idea of saving Genesis. His only justification is that he wants to save the world in non-destructive ways. Both Lazard's physical appearance as an Angeal copy and the way he channels Angeal's positive energy inspires Zack to dream big again. What if at least one person from the old trio (Angeal, Sephiroth & Genesis) could be saved? It's what Angeal would have wanted, after all.

For perhaps the first time I feel a sense of clarity about this. Genesis is an awful person beyond reason, but Zack is trying to honor Angeal's presumed desire and part of that is to be pathologically set on saving even the most damned of souls.


One thing that's easy to forget, indeed very easy to miss because of how short the battle usually ends up being, is that even after Genesis has been cured of the degradation that he's suffered for 6-7 years...he is STILL an evil bastard. If Genesis uses his attack "Apocalypse" during the final battle with Zack, he will say "I'll take the world with me!", similar to what he said in Modeoheim all those years earlier. "

Genesis: If this world seeks my destruction...​

...it goes with me.​

Not even finding the cure that he so longed for has made Genesis humble. He still carries the idea that if he can't have his way, then nobody can. Keep in mind that the battle quote is from even AFTER he said "The planet...has become my guardian.". Wow, way to honor the planet/world by threatening to take it with you.

To assume that being defeated by Zack and meeting his Goddess would change his ways is too much for me to believe.


That said, I concede to not being against the idea of Genesis actually achieving something "useful" in the larger timey-wimey-crisis-on-infinite-Planets Remake plot. One of the best moments in the original Final Fantasy VII, to me, is the barrier around the Northern Crater being destroyed by the mako cannon. Despite being the bad guys, and using up a lot of lifestream to fire the cannon, the plot allows for Shinra's resourcefulness to pay off and honestly aid in saving the world. This in no way redeems Shinra as a company but it admits to a mature real-life truth: Sometimes bad guys perform acts that help the world at large. It is not a state of affairs on which we should settle and be fine with but it is nevertheless the way things are.

Allowing Genesis to play the role as the metaphorical "mako cannon of the planet" is something I'd definitely not object against. I think the job of defeating Sephiroth in the final battle should fall only on the main playable characters we are familiar with. But before getting there I wouldn't mind seeing Genesis weaken Sephiroth or foil one of his plans. So long as the plot picks up back at the ugly truth that Genesis does not care about the well-being of our protagonists, he only cares about the "will of the planet", I will be fine with the scenario. Genesis should die as a zealot, not as a hero.

 

[ultima786]

I know we all hate Genesis but, isn't obvious that they will do a good job with him, all things considered? I mean, look at every other character and how well they are put together.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I've been focusing so much on the larger picture, asking why on earth the authors could possibly consider Genesis redeemable and worth saving, that I didn't see it's ALL about Zack's character motivation.

Lazard is the one who plants the idea of saving Genesis. His only justification is that he wants to save the world in non-destructive ways. Both Lazard's physical appearance as an Angeal copy and the way he channels Angeal's positive energy inspires Zack to dream big again. What if at least one person from the old trio (Angeal, Sephiroth & Genesis) could be saved? It's what Angeal would have wanted, after all.

For perhaps the first time I feel a sense of clarity about this. Genesis is an awful person beyond reason, but Zack is trying to honor Angeal's presumed desire and part of that is to be pathologically set on saving even the most damned of souls.

That's exactly the theme the game tries to convey, and it fits into the game's overarching theme of "legacy."

Zack inherited Angeal's hopes and dreams, his legacy of trying to save the world around him, and Genesis as a fellow SOLDIER was one of the things Zack wanted to save in honor of his teacher.

Genesis had to get his ass beatdown hard and then rejected by Minerva herself to finally pause and perhaps re-evaluate his life choices. The final chapter of Loveless he penned sorta speaks to a changed outlook but even then, it's still ambiguous. But the redemption, or hope thereof, is wholly framed as an important element to Zack. It would be nice if it wasn't a fools errand but only time (and the writers' desire to revisit his character) will tell.

I know we all hate Genesis but, isn't obvious that they will do a good job with him, all things considered? I mean, look at every other character and how well they are put together.

It's not that I don't think he shouldn't be around, I just don't think he should be shoehorned too far into the Remake.

Intergrade's Yuffie DLC Chapter is the perfect "detour" to include a G diversion, if one were to exist. However, there's a limit to all things. Nomura and Nojima's comments in the FFVII-R Ultimania on how they chose which Compilation characters to include were on the mark.

They picked which characters have the best reason to show up and be utilized by the plot and then go from there. Nomura and Nojima knew you simply can't just use all these extra characters, all the time. There's no reason for Genesis to be showing up outside of Midgar in the thick of the search for Sephiroth when he's supposed to be with Deepground. The plot of FFVII has no real place for Genesis to somehow insert himself between the conflict of Cloud and Sephiroth, let alone Shinra and AVALANCHE. There's a time and place for everything.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

NINJA'd: X-SOLDIER summarized it better than I could have, but I'll post my piece anyway.

There's a lot that I'm trying to summarize briefly and less specifically since I've got most of my energy into breaking a lot of that stuff down still, and there are some bits that I'm still passing back through multiple times, but all of the points that you hit are important even outside of how they're representative of Zack's motivations, because of the underlying perspective that they represent thematically.

There's a particular dynamic in a lot of Japanese storytelling that goes about demonstrating details about a character by pitting them against a foil, so that the end result is that you understand that you understand that the inherent nature and relationships of opposites are closer to being the same than they are to being different, and then using that dynamic to show when a character can or can't be capable of being understood even if they still have to be opposed.

Like here's a quick & thread relevant dynamic from that Crisis Core Q&A. Aerith & Sephiroth are opposites for how it comes to the relationship between the White & Black Materia. Sephiroth & Genesis are opposites when it comes to how Jenova's traits can be expressed.

What makes that useful in terms of Final Fantasy VII's story – the "Cloud" we meet is a Sephiroth copy.

If Remake does use anything about Genesis, it's going to be to provide a contextual foil to emphasize some aspect of the nature of Cloud & Sephiroth's relationship to one another that is important to have a greater understanding of, likely exclusively related to the "Unknown Sephiroth" because he's clearly got a different element to him.



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[Roundhouse]

I'm starting to suspect that some here dislike Genesis...

I think the remake is going to end up being a melting pot of the VII universe, so the compilation will come together with the OG, and then also the new stuff like the whispers and Zack returning, etc. In that sense it reminds me of an Avengers movie, but for FFVII. So along the way we meet Weiss, we go to Deepground, Genesis surely returns, etc. I wouldn't be surprised if the final battle against Seph has more than one character added to the mix....like Zack and others. It's the kind of 'epic' clash that I think would really appeal to the devs, for better or worse.

I really wish we could get some clarity on the Zack situation -- is it a different timeline, is it the same, how much is he going to be involved in the remake story, etc -- because it would help a lot with predicting where we're going.

 

[Firstone33]

I'm starting to suspect that some here dislike Genesis...

I think the remake is going to end up being a melting pot of the VII universe, so the compilation will come together with the OG, and then also the new stuff like the whispers and Zack returning, etc. In that sense it reminds me of an Avengers movie, but for FFVII. So along the way we meet Weiss, we go to Deepground, Genesis surely returns, etc. I wouldn't be surprised if the final battle against Seph has more than one character added to the mix....like Zack and others. It's the kind of 'epic' clash that I think would really appeal to the devs, for better or worse.

I really wish we could get some clarity on the Zack situation -- is it a different timeline, is it the same, how much is he going to be involved in the remake story, etc -- because it would help a lot with predicting where we're going.

Good questions and yes some of us dislike genesis mainly cause he keeps repeating loveless and also he is one of the reasons sephiroth went crazy in the first place. As for zack with how remake ended he is alive where no clue and it is clear cloud does not remember him the only person who has any idea he might be alive is aerith, I would like to see how they go with the story in part 2 and part 3 now that og and compilation via integrade deal is a thing

 

[Dark and Divine]

(...)
I think the remake is going to end up being a melting pot of the VII universe, so the compilation will come together with the OG, and then also the new stuff like the whispers and Zack returning, etc. In that sense it reminds me of an Avengers movie, but for FFVII. So along the way we meet Weiss, we go to Deepground, Genesis surely returns, etc. I wouldn't be surprised if the final battle against Seph has more than one character added to the mix....like Zack and others. It's the kind of 'epic' clash that I think would really appeal to the devs, for better or worse.
(...)

Put them as one of the side teams in an eventual Bizarro Sephiroth battle and that might work. Then leave Bizarro's main core, Safer Sephiroth (and what could lie beyond) to Cloud and the others.

 

[Sephiroth Crescent]

I don't dislike him, but wouldn't say I like him either, so...
Is there a reason he should appear? To bring dispear? I dunno. Let him rest.
His time might come way later, at least at the Ever Crisis party dance floor.

 

[Odysseus]

With Deepground entering the picture, I feel like nothing shall forestall his return. I never would have predicted Yuffie vs Deepground to be a thing, so I know that guessing at his involvement would be basically impossible, but poem boy will be there.

 

[Sephiroth Crescent]

With Deepground entering the picture, I feel like nothing shall forestall his return. I never would have predicted Yuffie vs Deepground to be a thing, so I know that guessing at his involvement would be basically impossible, but poem boy will be there.

Ah, what the hell, there I go!!!
Highway Seph is Genesis already!