SPOILERS INTERmission Chapter 2 Spoiler Discussion

[Tetsujin]

If part 2 ends at Nibelheim, Episode: INTERmission 2 starring Vincent will be a thing, mark my words.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Yes, and it'd feature playing through Vincent's nightmares.

 

[Tetsujin]

Yes, and it'd feature playing through Vincent's nightmares.

 

[Shademp]

Play as Turk Vincent as he walks through the halls of the Shinra Manor. Reality slowly deteriorates, along with Vincent's sanity, as the walls bleed black goo and he hears a wailing Lucrecia and a screaming baby. FFVIIR2 Intermission: A psychological horror experience.

 

[Torrie]

Also, it's not meant to be shown as a completely different church, just less dilapidated as shown in Crisis Core.

Fun fact: Mako repeated the word "dilapidated" so many times throughout this thread that I couldn't help learning it eventually. Always happy to enrich my vocabulary, thank you

 

[KindOfBlue]

But the Lifestream has always been shown as a white goo so... It's not supposed to be a place. We even see it in Remake in chapter 18, there's nothing but a flow of consciousness.

The real Lifestream was the friends we made along the way

@KindOfBlue

Well, I suppose we'll see. Like you said, what you're saying does technically fit. However, I just feel that it's an unnecessary complication when we can simply take what the game shows us and what the writers explained.

And while you and others may scoff at such a clue lying within the designs of the church, this is simply deja-vu for me. Except now I'm on the opposite end, unlike the previous speculation of the chip bag with Stamp. The same intentionality that came from designing Stamp is twice over, is easily applied here. And bear in mind that the writers, particularly Nomura, have all done the exact same subtle burying of storyline hints within layers of inconspicuous background before. Nomura with Kingdom Hearts UnionX/BBS/1/2/3, Dissidia and of course Advent Children. Toriyama did it with the XIII series. The reason I see it is because this is simply their modus operandi.

We'll know something in a month.

I need the game to show me two parallel timelines before I can get on board because what’s been shown and explained so far still leaves too many questions (as it should). The smoking gun in all this is Stamp, if we see a terrier Stamp as Cloud then we’re definitely not in Kansas anymore lol but that’s what the rest of the games are for. I do think the simplest explanation is the most likely, problem here is what’s simple to one may not be to another. Either way, I think the moral here is not to jump to conclusions.

If there’s two Clouds, what’s the other one been doing? What if we’re the ones in the wrong timeline? Maybe we’ve retained our “beagle” selves due to the singularity but the world around us is “terrier”? Can Terrier!Zack physically meet Beagle!Cloud simply by finding him, or are we really just two separate timelines running parallel? Does what happens in one timeline have any bearing on what happens in the other? And how are we going to merge or intersect the two lines?

I need answers to all those questions before I can commit, but I think they’re only so much we can gather from ultimanias at this point. No matter which way we go, there will be lots of questions. It’s one thing if the whole story was told in one game but since we’re doing multiple parts, I don’t expect the ultimanias to explain everything just yet. Like I said, the story’s just not over yet.

Also, I don’t think the church thing is the craziest idea honestly (that “Jessie is alive because furniture-kanji” bit is pretty hard to top lol) but that question of one timeline versus two still needs a definitive answer. I mean, we wouldn’t be having this discussion otherwise…

 

[Makoeyes987]

I do think the simplest explanation is the most likely, problem here is what’s simple to one may not be to another.

LOL a very good point.

We'll know something in a month with the new Ultimania, including info on Intermission. I find it unlikely they won't say something edifying about that new ending scenes. If the church is mentioned as being designed or different than what we've seen, then I think we'll know which direction we're going. Even if we're not sure of the final destination.

 

[Odysseus]

I finally beat Weiss after six hours. I'm gonna go destroy the rest of the game with my godlike equipment now.

 

[Roundhouse]

I'm not hopeful that we'll learn much of anything. I'm anticipating a 'it's Zack! But how can he be there? Where is -there-? What does any of this mean? Wait until 2023 for P2 to find out!!'

 

[Tetsujin]

So Scarlet calls Yuffie and Sonon teenage ninjas.
Yuffie at one point says she is a rare bloom, to which Sonon responds "more like a mutant"
And then there's the Happy Turtle stuff and Yuffie's "turtle sense"

All these TMNT references and we didn't even go to the sewers this time

 

[Shademp]

Teenage Mutant Ninja Princess
Teenage Mutant Ninja Princess
Throws 4-point shuriken
WUTAI POWER

She's the world's best treasure hunting gal (I'm really hip!)
She's a hero of the planet and the sky (I never trip!)
When the evil Shinra attacks
This ninja girl don't cut 'em no slack

Teenage Mutant Ninja Princess

 

[Fiz]

Oh, so now you trollin' me, huh wise guy??

Look at this.

Spoiler: The church alter in FFVII-R

View attachment 10060

Spoiler: The church alter in the ending with Zack

View attachment 10062

The are clearly not the same. The drapes are missing in FFVII-R. The walls of the church in FFVII-R are not clean like they are in the ending. Look at the cross-like shape that's there. It's paneled in wood in Zack's ending. That wood is missing in FFVII-R. Furthermore...

Spoiler: The church in another game

View attachment 10064

The only other time we see the Church have that wood paneling on its cross-like shape at the alter there.... Is in Crisis Core. The pews are also there near the flower bed in Crisis Core and in Zack's ending. Those pews are not near the flowerbed in FFVII-R.

There's a very clear allusion going on.

Okay no circles, but I hope the pictures themselves speak louder.

The altar... place? Idk what the proper name should be, but you get the idea.

Spoiler: CC: The cross-like thing looks wooden.

View attachment 10058

Spoiler: FFVIIR: the cross has the same stone texture as the wall; colours inverted

View attachment 10059

The floor definitely looks different.

Spoiler: CC: No damage

View attachment 10061

Spoiler: FFVIIR: some damage is visible

View attachment 10063

So INTERmission shows us the church which looks either identical or at least very similar to the CC church in terms of colours, decorations, and the floor. The candle holder also looks slightly different everywhere.

Spoiler: INTERmission: hoo boy

View attachment 10066

Edit: Ninja'd by Mako

I think you guys are overthinking the church. Everyone is.

While Zack might be in another timeline, and the church might turn out to be different, I don't think anything here proves or indicates that it is. To my eye, the church with Zack just looks like a high detail CGI version of the church.

 

[Fiz]

People in the twitter thread have noticed it sounds like One Wing Angel from AC/C. That's really interesting. To me it gives credits that something is wrong - I've said it enough but I always felt that Sephiroth was taunting Aerith when he went through the portal, and only Zack's vision decided her to act.



Looking at the fact that the whispers are around the troopers... I'm starting to think that maybeeeeeee this scene is from a parallel universe from where Zack wins anyway. And the Sephiroth from that universe is trying to come to the OG universe. Actually, this would give credit to the merging universe theory, because that would be chapter 18 Sephiroth's goal, in order to wreck chaos in the OG timeline too.

Which would make me think that in this universe, because there is no Cloud, Aerith, Tifa, Barret... they all die. Hence why we see people mourning Aerith maybe in her church. That would solve the "doubles" problem, except for Cloud's, which is to get resolved in the Lifestream.

That also reminds me that in their fight against Sephiroth at the end, Sephiroth only talks to 3 characters: Cloud (expected), Aertih (expected), and... Tifa. And he really doesn't like Tifa. Is this simply a way for the devs to allude to her role in the Lifestream scene, depriving him of puppet!Cloud? If this Sephiroth is from a parallel universe, logically, he hasn't heard of Cloud and the gang. Since they all die or Cloud is mako-poisoned. But I've also had the theory that the Lifestream is joining all the parallel universes... what if the OG story is the only universe where Sephiroth loses? Then wouldn't other Sephiroth(s) from other parallel universe(s) study that case in the Lifestream? Then Sephiroth's goal would be to win everywhere, maybe to converge all the parallel universes into one where he wins, and with all the power accumulated, truly becomes a god who can escape the Planet's fate?

Edit: also I was coming to this thread to talk about Scarlet and how she talks about Wutai: they're definitely scapegoats, and just like in the OG we're going to find that they've become pretty much a vacation spot for Shinra.

Thats an interesting take

 

[Obsidian Fire]

Edit: also I was coming to this thread to talk about Scarlet and how she talks about Wutai: they're definitely scapegoats, and just like in the OG we're going to find that they've become pretty much a vacation spot for Shinra.

I'm of two minds of this... because Crisis Core changes some things up. Most notably, it puts Wutai on a much more even footing with Shinra. They were fighitng Shinra for eight years, and the fight could have gone on longer if Wutai hadn't agreed to a cease-fire when it did.

Or at least, part of Wutai did. The part that follows Godo. Only issue is... CC shows that a good number of Wutains didn't stick with the cease-fire. They kept up acts of terrorism and espionage against Shinra for quite a while after the war was officially "over". Now Intergrade has dropped that Godo is under house arrest or in jail of some type. Given how... unpopular... Godo's cease-fire was... I really have to wonder who are the ones imprisonning him... because Godo is the head of the faction that decided to stop fighting *volentarily*.So on the one hand, it could be Shinra who put him under house arrest. On the other hand, I could easily see it being other Wutaians that are mad he sold them out to Shinra. Either way.

Wutai is really interesting for me because... Shinra isn't *exactly* lying about Wutai being a threat to them. They definetly were at one point and for a significant length of time. We're talking the kind of threat that was raiding mako reactors, and infiltrating the SOLDIER floor, having inhuman monsters that were known for causing problems even for SOLDIERs and... being a general disruption to the lives of civilians of Midgar. Wutai has never been portrayed as a dinky little country Shinra just... flattened without any effort. They were a legitimate threat to Shinra that Shinra did have... at least understandable reasons... to want to bring to heel. Shinra isn't quite so stupid to ignore an outside enemy that's threatening... essentially it's capitol city with a legit terrorist threat.

Now, will Shinra blow it out of porportion? Yes. But that still doesn't change the fact that Wutai *does* (did?) have a cease-fire treaty in place. The pont of which is to... stop people from killing each other. And it's Wutai that isn't sticking to it at the moment, not Shinra.

It's worth noting that Wutai is kinda a Japan stand-in and that the Wutai War has... a lot of references to WWII in various ways.. And WWII ended with Japan stopping being a military empire and ended with them becoming something of a tourist destination as well...

 

[KindOfBlue]

LOL a very good point.

We'll know something in a month with the new Ultimania, including info on Intermission. I find it unlikely they won't say something edifying about that new ending scenes. If the church is mentioned as being designed or different than what we've seen, then I think we'll know which direction we're going. Even if we're not sure of the final destination.

If they confirm the church is different, all that’ll do for me is confirm…that the church is different. Why and how is it different, and what does that mean for the story, that’s what I really need to know but I’m mentally preparing to not know until at least the next game comes out.

Hope this doesn’t turn into another WandaVision scenario where the fans get too hyped about a theory but then frustrated when it doesn’t actually happen (which may or may not also be the case with this new Spider-Man movie but that’s a different story all together). Man, we’ve sure come a long way with how pop culture handles and responds to multiverses lol.

Actually, I’ve been speaking to the planet with my Cetra powers and it’s telling me what we’re gonna find out in the next ultimania…

Spoiler: Enter at your own risk

“Development on part 2 has been going well, so please look forward for more information when the time is right”.

 

[kathy202]

Am I the only who has like zero theories on Zack and the ending and am just going like "Oh cool! I wonder what will happen do next?"

 

[Roundhouse]

I wish I could do that, it would make the wait for P2 much easier...I want to know, darnit.

 

[waw]

Am I the only who has like zero theories on Zack and the ending and am just going like "Oh cool! I wonder what will happen do next?"

I have a very open mind as I have no idea where it's going or what these scenes mean. I mean, even in part, Stamp exists as a message for Avalanche, so I could even see there being some sort of non-parallel timeline explanation for that even.

Though, now that the Whispers are gone, Fate, or the Planet, or whatever was their master tasking Zack (and sparing him his fate for that reason) could be an incredibly fun story.

 

[kathy202]

I want to know too! I just don't have theories. Though more than that, I just want a PS5. Still debating whether to watch streamers online...

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I'm like you, Kathy. I think anything is possible and I'm not wedded to any theories.

 

[Edley]

Maximillian_Dood on twitch is theorizing that Zack is alive in another timeline and Aerith is already dead hence the people crying in the church, wilted flowers, the "Aerith?" ending line, etc.

I don't know what to feel about that, but I'm seeing side missions, DLC with Zack and other characters with new side stories between and among the main installments of remake.

 

[Wol]

Maximillian_Dood on twitch is theorizing that Zack is alive in another timeline and Aerith is already dead hence the people crying in the church, wilted flowers, the "Aerith?" ending line, etc.

I don't know what to feel about that, but I'm seeing side missions, DLC with Zack and other characters with new side stories between and among the main installments of remake.

Interesting, in this way the main story wouldn't be affected and the Zack alt story would be released between main entries to hold interest (and Zack is a character that can do that).

 

[cold_spirit]

I feel like a lot of the past 300 posts have a "missed the forest for the trees" problem. First the flowers, then the church, and overall just going over the same timeline theories. The basic premise of the scene is being overlooked.

Zack arrives at Aerith's church. Inside is a group of distressed people.

I'm going to try talking about the scene without mentioning the quality of the flowers, the church, or when the scene might take place. That'll just lead us down the same pitfalls as before.

Considering the Sector 7 plate fall is such a big story event, I think what comes to most people's mind when they see the people in the church is that they're the Sector 7 survivors. However, Aerith's church is in Sector 5. Would the Sector 7 survivors really travel past Sector 6 and most of Sector 5 to take shelter at a supposedly forgotten church?

Furthermore, and I'm not commenting on the quality of the flowers here, but it is clear that they've been trampled. We can see some flowers crushed around the flower bed (pictured below). It could be that the people at the church were careless as they walked around. However, I want to suggest that they're left over signs of a struggle.

To me, the people at the church look beaten up. One kid is on the floor holding his side (pictured below). Something went down in and around the church. Maybe Aerith was killed? (Though to me the people look defeated, not like they're grieving.) Maybe she was forcibly taken in a struggle that involved the residents of Sector 5? What is clear is that Zack is here to stay. There's also a ton of Midgar assets that will otherwise be left unused as the party travels the globe. My most basic, least offensive theory is that the scene merely hints at what Zack will be up to in Part 2.

 

[Saven]

Just finished the game an hour ago. Guess we are absolutely getting Nibelheim Flashback to begin part 2 now that we have skipped towards Kalm, which looks beautiful from the distance!

Figured Sonon was going to end up being the Qui-Gon Jinn of FFVII. Even sounded like him.

Glad I held my tongue when it came to the DoC characters. I absolutely enjoyed the Psycho Mantis-like Nero this time around along with his boss music.

The writing and music are still up to par with the base game, which made me happy. There was a lot more care put into this than most DLC I've played.

Now that I know how this DLC goes where with the main game chronologically, I will finally begin my playthrough of the base game tomorrow.

 

[KindOfBlue]

Would the Sector 7 survivors really travel past Sector 6 and most of Sector 5 to take shelter at a supposedly forgotten church?

I think I remember Aerith yelling at the Sector 7 inhabitants to flee to Sector 5 or 6? With how many people have been displaced, I’m sure they’ll take whatever shelter they can find. I don’t remember the number Reeve gave to President Shinra about how many people live in Sector 7, but it’s a lot of people.

EDIT: Over 50,000 people, so…however many people survived, they had to have gone somewhere. I imagine the survivors would flood all of Sector 5 and 6.