SPOILERS INTERmission Chapter 2 Spoiler Discussion
- Thread starter Tetsujin
- Start date
LicoriceAllsorts
Donator
IIRC, when Cloud&Aerith cross paths with Zack&Cloud, Cloud&Aerith are standing near the end of an unfinished expressway. I can't see how or why Zack would drag a comatose Cloud to that precise spot, so it doesn't seem possible to me that they can be occupying the same physical space at different times. (or indeed the same space at the same time).
I could be wrong about the expressway being unfinished, though. Even so, it seems like a highly improbable route into Midgar for Shinra's Most Wanted to take. Too exposed, too visible.
I could be wrong about the expressway being unfinished, though. Even so, it seems like a highly improbable route into Midgar for Shinra's Most Wanted to take. Too exposed, too visible.
Torrie
astray ay-ay-ay
That's what I pondered, too. Either he is now invisible because he has kind of died but kind of hasn't, he's not supposed to be there anyway, or the mourning people are too occupied with their suffering that another random church-goer simply cannot distract them.
Phantasm
Game Over
Im more with the first idea, to me hes dead (like at lifestream probably). Because even if you are suffering if someone opens the door like that, you wont ignore it like nothing happened, as minimun i would look at him.
Not even the two girls at the door turned to look. THAT is weird.
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Torrie
astray ay-ay-ay
This aligns very well with the allusion to the final scene in ACC which was pointed out above. The white background and everything.
This is where it's getting REALLY interesting!
Roundhouse
Pro Adventurer
Zack as a ghost is fun but ultimately hollow unless he can interact with his pals, as in Ghost (1990).
That being said it's much more of an enjoyable theory than the dull 'Zack is about to get gunned down' wishful thinking.
That being said it's much more of an enjoyable theory than the dull 'Zack is about to get gunned down' wishful thinking.
Tetsujin
he/they
- AKA
- Tets
See, I have always wondered about that. The obvious answer is that we killed the Whispers, therefore fate has changed.
But as you said: the singularity blows up *after* Zack already won.
Maybe he won because the Whispers were too occupied with their singularity crap to make sure he dies. But then again, wouldn't that happen anyway if this was to be his fate? They wouldn't have to make sure he's gonna die unless an outside intervention changed the outcome and as far as we know, there was no outside intervention that the Whispers needed to correct.
So, and let me put on my tinfoil hat here because I'm not convinced of my hypothesis myself but it's fun anyway.
So Stamp is a different design. Indicating this might be a parallel timeline.
What if this timeline is not different because anything to do with the Whisper singularity but rather, it was always just one of myriad possibilities (ooh, myriad. I don't get to use that word often. Fun!
) that exist in parallel to each other?What if in this timeline, Zack was always meant to survive to begin with?
What if exploding the singularity across timelines didn't change his fate in his timeline but instead is just the explanation for why he is now pulled into the Remake one?
(now the reason why I'm not entirely convinced of it myself is because we actually do have cases of Whispers correcting stuff that seemingly was different for no known outside intervention, like Aerith almost falling from the 2nd floor of the church and the Whispers catching her before it happens but as I said, I'm just throwing shit at the wall for fun here)
Yes
I do wanna point out in the sky beyond the unfinished motorway you do see glimpses of early twilight, so it's not quite the dead of night anymore. I think it could be as simple as the length of the final battle+travel time descending from the plate and away from Midgar.
Anyway, once again I ask myself:
What does somebody who hasn't played the OG think of all this? I wonder if there are still people that stayed away from any OG spoilers because I'd really love to hear the theories of somebody with no knowledge of Zack's original fate and everything.
Eerie
Fire and Blood
Tetsujin please stop copying my earlier post, I'm going to really believe it has chances of happening now lol. Except my mind went... places this morning lol. But yeah... what if this Zack is from another reality where he wins anyway...
Edit: Materwelonz is doing a blind run, as far as I know. She's already gone through the whole game and now is doing the Intergrade missions. It's really interesting because she picks up a lot of things despite knowing nothing about FFVII.
Edit: Materwelonz is doing a blind run, as far as I know. She's already gone through the whole game and now is doing the Intergrade missions. It's really interesting because she picks up a lot of things despite knowing nothing about FFVII.
Obsidian Fire
Ahk Morn!
- AKA
- The Engineer
One of my mantras is that Nomura, Kitase and Nojima *are not* subtle writers. If they want the story to imply or mean something, they have a character come right out and say it. They... really don't do a lot of *enviornmental* storytelling. It's nearly all character driven which characters pointing out what they think is happening and how it impact them and how they feel about it.
So Zack saying he's back... yeah. I have a really hard time seeing that as being anything other than NKN confirming that yes, Zack is back and he's going to have something major to do with the plot. He is not dead this time around, they did that story already. It's called the OG.
Roundhouse
Pro Adventurer
Odysseus
Ninja Potato
- AKA
- Ody
I have yet to even get past the Azul part lol. It took me too long to realize he can only be damaged by magic in that phase
Eerie
Fire and Blood
@Theozilla: That's what I would have thought too, but the bird is usually an eagle, and that bird pretty much looks like a phoenix minus the colours.
Phantasm
Game Over
I agree with you. I think that bird is the same of the opening but from another perspective.
KindOfBlue
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- Blue
Can I just say I really hope we’re not venturing into “Jessie is alive because the furniture next to Biggs spells out the kanji for whatever-the-hell” territory with all of this church talk lmao. The prerendered cutscenes being inconsistent with the in-engine design isn’t exactly out of the question considering Cloud, Tifa and Aerith themselves look different. Still though, I’ll indulge in it for a bit lol.
“How is it possible that there are two different Clouds that exist at the same time?” That’s a question. They then follow it up with “it is assumed that they shouldn’t not exist in the same time and space”. It is assumed that they should not, but what the hell are they then?
And notice how both of our explanations fit here. If what you’re saying is true, then they don’t exist in the same time and space because it’s two separate timelines. If what I’m saying is true, they still don’t exist in the same time and space because the actual event of Zack living did not occur at the same time that Cloud left Midgar, but earlier.
And then of course, there’s “aside from that, the rest is unknown”. I know the ultimanias are meant to break down the specifics of what’s going on in the story but they literally did not do that with this particular point lol, they’re basically saying “we’ll get there when we get there.”
The way the church looks throughout most of the remake? That’s the world before the singularity changed the past (beagle). The way the church looks at the end of intermission? That’s the world after the singularity changed the past (terrier).
What I’m suggesting is that time has not shifted, Zack still fought Shinra in September and Cloud still left Midgar in December. I am treating those as two events that are fixed in time. The question then is, what was Zack doing during that three month period? He didn’t just teleport 3 months ahead, he lived those three months. Then when we catch up with him, it’s December, he’s going to see Aerith and…she’s gone.
Had Zack gone to the church in September, Aerith would have likely still been there. So what was he doing for those months? Who knows. Probably dealing with being a wanted criminal and surviving a fight with a whole ass army.
Of course, that’s all still conjecture. But we still have an opportunity to tell a Zack story here just as we would if we were on two separate timelines. Why didn’t he go to the church right away? Perhaps we can learn about what was holding him up. Or we can see what Zack gets up to after reaching the church. Where does he go next? More importantly, we can have a Zack story that isn’t so disconnected from the main plot because it’s all happing on the same plane of existence.
He shouldn’t have the sword and yet he does. They haven’t explained the specifics of how this works. This is what they said:
“How is it possible that there are two different Clouds that exist at the same time?” That’s a question. They then follow it up with “it is assumed that they shouldn’t not exist in the same time and space”. It is assumed that they should not, but what the hell are they then?
And notice how both of our explanations fit here. If what you’re saying is true, then they don’t exist in the same time and space because it’s two separate timelines. If what I’m saying is true, they still don’t exist in the same time and space because the actual event of Zack living did not occur at the same time that Cloud left Midgar, but earlier.
And then of course, there’s “aside from that, the rest is unknown”. I know the ultimanias are meant to break down the specifics of what’s going on in the story but they literally did not do that with this particular point lol, they’re basically saying “we’ll get there when we get there.”
This is some big brained level-100 shit lmao but you know what though? We can treat the design of the church the same way I’m interpreting the design of Stamp.To answer your question about children crying in Aerith's church, it's simple. There's clearly something wrong. And people associating those children with the plate fall are missing the point of that scene entirely. Look at the scenery and design of the Church in Zack's ending; it doesn't match what that church looks like in FFVII-R. The details are wildly different.
There are only 6 broken down pews, nestled near the front of the church, during FFVII-R.
Pay attention to the ending. There are several pews when Zack enters, with people sitting on them, all the way near the entrance door of said church.
The entry archway and walls of said entrance to the church are a clean, polished white in Zack's ending.
The entry archway is a dull, dirty brownish color during FFVII-R. Just look at yourself if you think it's not true.
The brick walls of the church are clean and white in the ending with Zack.
The brick walls of the church in FFVII-R are dirty brown.
I don't understand how no one's noticing this.
They're not the same. church That's not what the church looked like in FFVII-R.
But you wanna know when the Church looked like that?
The way the church looks throughout most of the remake? That’s the world before the singularity changed the past (beagle). The way the church looks at the end of intermission? That’s the world after the singularity changed the past (terrier).
Because Zack entering the church did occur at the same time that Aerith senses something’s wrong, again we agree there. But Zack’s last stand itself still took place months before Cloud left Midgar. Remember, we only ever see Zack’s last stand before and after the singularity, not during. In this new world that Cloud ended up in, Zack’s last stand is an event that took place months before Cloud leaving Midgar, that has not changed, only the outcome.
What I’m suggesting is that time has not shifted, Zack still fought Shinra in September and Cloud still left Midgar in December. I am treating those as two events that are fixed in time. The question then is, what was Zack doing during that three month period? He didn’t just teleport 3 months ahead, he lived those three months. Then when we catch up with him, it’s December, he’s going to see Aerith and…she’s gone.
Had Zack gone to the church in September, Aerith would have likely still been there. So what was he doing for those months? Who knows. Probably dealing with being a wanted criminal and surviving a fight with a whole ass army.
Of course, that’s all still conjecture. But we still have an opportunity to tell a Zack story here just as we would if we were on two separate timelines. Why didn’t he go to the church right away? Perhaps we can learn about what was holding him up. Or we can see what Zack gets up to after reaching the church. Where does he go next? More importantly, we can have a Zack story that isn’t so disconnected from the main plot because it’s all happing on the same plane of existence.
Cloud and Yuffie can still meet though, it’s just that maybe the world around them has changed…I’m thinking of it more as though the beagle world was overwritten by the terrier world
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Theozilla
Kaiju Member
Still I don’t think I would describe it as a Phoenix. It’s a pretty bird for sure, but not very Phoenix looking IMO.
Obsidian Fire
Ahk Morn!
- AKA
- The Engineer
I was going to say, if that's an eagle, it's got the longest tail-feathers ever. The eagle at the start has a short-squared off tail like it's supposed to.
Eerie
Fire and Blood
You know, I agree that the colour is totally wrong! Yet when I saw it, I immediately thought it was a phoenix, and I can't even explain why ^^' The tail and golden feather made me think about it - because if it's not a phoenix, then what is it?