SPOILERS INTERmission Chapter 2 Spoiler Discussion
- Thread starter Tetsujin
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which is a shame because her lines and acting are very cute there.
LNK
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- Nate
While I think there is something similar to Laguna going on with Zack, I think it's Zack who is dead and not Aerith. I think he's searching for her in the "afterlife." Eventually Aerith dies, and they are finally reunited.
Shademp
420
Before the Yuffie DLC was released I considered the possibility that they would somehow make her encounter with Deepground still congruent with the Dirge of Cerberus plot. In most aspects you could still make an argument that the Yuffie we see in Dirge of Cerberus is retro-actively the same Yuffie we now see in Remake.
The main dent in that notion now is the fact that Nero is directly responsible for the death of Yuffie's comrade. It's impossible to place Remake-Yuffie in Dirge of Cerberus and not have her react strongly to facing Sonon's killer. True, AC-Tifa on a chipper phone call with Reno is an impossible scene that still manages to exist.
When reasonable logic is applied however, DoC-Yuffie never met Nero three years prior (not even retroactively) and certainly didn't have her comrade killed by him. If this will ultimately *mean* anything is up to the future but everybody already knows the camp I'm in: The FF7R series will find a way to resolve Deepground, Hojo, Omega Weapon etc before Meteorfall and lead to Dirge of Cerberus not happening in the new timeline. If the FF7R series ends with the old status quo, with the old post-OG continuity still happening, then ALL THE SHENANIGANS with Whispers, changing fate etc will feel LEAGUES more pointless than it already does.
The main dent in that notion now is the fact that Nero is directly responsible for the death of Yuffie's comrade. It's impossible to place Remake-Yuffie in Dirge of Cerberus and not have her react strongly to facing Sonon's killer. True, AC-Tifa on a chipper phone call with Reno is an impossible scene that still manages to exist.
When reasonable logic is applied however, DoC-Yuffie never met Nero three years prior (not even retroactively) and certainly didn't have her comrade killed by him. If this will ultimately *mean* anything is up to the future but everybody already knows the camp I'm in: The FF7R series will find a way to resolve Deepground, Hojo, Omega Weapon etc before Meteorfall and lead to Dirge of Cerberus not happening in the new timeline. If the FF7R series ends with the old status quo, with the old post-OG continuity still happening, then ALL THE SHENANIGANS with Whispers, changing fate etc will feel LEAGUES more pointless than it already does.
Odysseus
Ninja Potato
- AKA
- Ody
My counter to that is that, outside of preventing you from entering the Seventh Heaven, the whispers never meaningfully influence Yuffie's story. As such, it evidently happened as intended, without outside influence.
Granted, I'm also considering the idea that the remake will not follow the original continuity either, so who knows.
Granted, I'm also considering the idea that the remake will not follow the original continuity either, so who knows.
Shademp
420
Thanks for informing me of that scene! The playthrough I watched didn't include the player trying to enter Seventh Heaven.
The arbiters of fate are curious because they clearly don't care about the details. If they did, Reno would have pressed the button that initiated the plate separation sequence at the end of Ch12, instead of the timeline changing to Rude being the button-presser. It's impossible then to say how much of the Yuffie DLC was part of the Whispers' "plans" and how much was simply allowed because it wasn't considered intrusive enough for the timeline. All we know is that they didn't want Yuffie to enter Seventh Heaven.
The arbiters of fate are curious because they clearly don't care about the details. If they did, Reno would have pressed the button that initiated the plate separation sequence at the end of Ch12, instead of the timeline changing to Rude being the button-presser. It's impossible then to say how much of the Yuffie DLC was part of the Whispers' "plans" and how much was simply allowed because it wasn't considered intrusive enough for the timeline. All we know is that they didn't want Yuffie to enter Seventh Heaven.
Odysseus
Ninja Potato
- AKA
- Ody
This, like so many other things *Cough*Zack*Cough* is something we're just gonna have to wait and see about.
On the one hand, having things like Genesis, the larger Avalanche, and Deepground in the remake goes a long way towards making the FF7 compilation feel more like a cohesive whole than it did before. With that in mind, I'd like the old continuity to stay the same. On the other hand, I also get the feeling the remake is meant to be the very literal conclusion to the FF7 saga, and as such will deviate from prior continuity.
You have the devs saying it will "still be recognizable as FF7" and "It will follow the events of the original." but all these other things seem to indicate otherwise. I'm not sure what to make of it. Part 2 will probably go a ways towards making things clearer.
On the one hand, having things like Genesis, the larger Avalanche, and Deepground in the remake goes a long way towards making the FF7 compilation feel more like a cohesive whole than it did before. With that in mind, I'd like the old continuity to stay the same. On the other hand, I also get the feeling the remake is meant to be the very literal conclusion to the FF7 saga, and as such will deviate from prior continuity.
You have the devs saying it will "still be recognizable as FF7" and "It will follow the events of the original." but all these other things seem to indicate otherwise. I'm not sure what to make of it. Part 2 will probably go a ways towards making things clearer.
BioTeach
Pro Adventurer
I finished watching a play through so I thought I'd share some of my thoughts:
- I liked the additional Avalanche members (Nayo, Zhije, Billy Bob, Polk) Of them, I think Zhije was my favorite. I just thought he was a fun personality and seemed to have the most purpose. I hope we see more of them. We don't know that they died in the plate drop and since just about every other NPC we know about made it out, I'd say they have a good chance. Another reason I think we'll see more of them is that there were facts from their character bios that went unused. Like Zhije being from Wutai (I know Yuffie and Sonon mentioned it but it was never confirmed in game or explored) Also Billy Bob's bio said something about his special skill being able to drink without getting drunk and gathering intel that way. Why give him that unusual skill and do nothing with it? I dont actually remember the guy doing anything other than tell us some things about the Shinra building. This makes me think he'll show up and do something useful later. The first place that comes to mind for me is Junon when the Turks are seen drinking while off duty. Seems like a good place for Bob to reappear.
- I really liked Sonon and his death was heartbreaking... and unusual. I hope they dont torture him more but with Nero taking him, I'm sure there's nothing good in store for him if we do get to see him again. Ugh more heartbreak!
- Roche. I dont know what to say about his cameo other than I hated it. I didnt like him at first in the main game either but he grew on me and I really did end up liking him. But he was way too theatrical in the DLC. I know it's a fantasy game but I still like for the characters to be believable. And Roche was not this time. I did like the premise that he was looking for Cloud. I thought that was a nice touch, but they made him too goofy for my tastes.
- Nero is a very cruel man. He was scary and sadistic and I liked it. I'm curious to see what more they do with deepground moving forward.
- Chadley was improved this time around. Ive seen theories floating around that Hojo made him as a Sephiroth copy/clone and I kinda like the idea. I always thought the choice to make his hair gray/silver was an odd one and could have a deeper implication.
- Zack. I'm not going to get into the timeline-is-he-dead-or-alive debate. I will say I'm not a fan of time travel shenanigans but theres no denying he is back in some capacity here. I love Zack but I want him to stay dead. I invested too many tears in watching him die for it to have been for nothing! But getting back to the INTERmission scene - I thought it was really well done. Zack was adorable rehearsing how he wanted to greet Aerith again after so long (and very in character with how I imagine him to be) and the disappointment on his face afterward was so sad. I'm very curious now to see where this is going but I'm not going to waste any energy in trying to guess. I'll just be patient and wait for it to all come out in due time.
- I liked the additional Avalanche members (Nayo, Zhije, Billy Bob, Polk) Of them, I think Zhije was my favorite. I just thought he was a fun personality and seemed to have the most purpose. I hope we see more of them. We don't know that they died in the plate drop and since just about every other NPC we know about made it out, I'd say they have a good chance. Another reason I think we'll see more of them is that there were facts from their character bios that went unused. Like Zhije being from Wutai (I know Yuffie and Sonon mentioned it but it was never confirmed in game or explored) Also Billy Bob's bio said something about his special skill being able to drink without getting drunk and gathering intel that way. Why give him that unusual skill and do nothing with it? I dont actually remember the guy doing anything other than tell us some things about the Shinra building. This makes me think he'll show up and do something useful later. The first place that comes to mind for me is Junon when the Turks are seen drinking while off duty. Seems like a good place for Bob to reappear.
- I really liked Sonon and his death was heartbreaking... and unusual. I hope they dont torture him more but with Nero taking him, I'm sure there's nothing good in store for him if we do get to see him again. Ugh more heartbreak!
- Roche. I dont know what to say about his cameo other than I hated it. I didnt like him at first in the main game either but he grew on me and I really did end up liking him. But he was way too theatrical in the DLC. I know it's a fantasy game but I still like for the characters to be believable. And Roche was not this time. I did like the premise that he was looking for Cloud. I thought that was a nice touch, but they made him too goofy for my tastes.
- Nero is a very cruel man. He was scary and sadistic and I liked it. I'm curious to see what more they do with deepground moving forward.
- Chadley was improved this time around. Ive seen theories floating around that Hojo made him as a Sephiroth copy/clone and I kinda like the idea. I always thought the choice to make his hair gray/silver was an odd one and could have a deeper implication.
- Zack. I'm not going to get into the timeline-is-he-dead-or-alive debate. I will say I'm not a fan of time travel shenanigans but theres no denying he is back in some capacity here. I love Zack but I want him to stay dead. I invested too many tears in watching him die for it to have been for nothing! But getting back to the INTERmission scene - I thought it was really well done. Zack was adorable rehearsing how he wanted to greet Aerith again after so long (and very in character with how I imagine him to be) and the disappointment on his face afterward was so sad. I'm very curious now to see where this is going but I'm not going to waste any energy in trying to guess. I'll just be patient and wait for it to all come out in due time.
Obsidian Fire
Ahk Morn!
- AKA
- The Engineer
One of the things I find really frustrating about Remake and Integrade's cutscenes (especially the ending montages) is that it's all but impossible to figure out *when* they are happening relative to each other. It's... almost impossible to know what *order* they are happening in, let alone if they're happening congruently.
They emotionally tend to flow one into the other (Marlene looking out the window at Barret who is calling for her; Aerith says something feels odd to her and then seeing Zack at the church, etc.) but it's also obvious that they're all happening at various times of day. And it's imposible to know if those times of day are "after" or "before" the previous cutscene's "time of day". What matters isn't the factual timeline, what matters is the emotional arcs.
In general, trouble I have with any theorizing about Remake is that *everything* has the potential to be a red herring. And NKN are massive trolls. They want us to not know what they're doing/planning and give evidence for just about every theory people can come up with. All people have to do is tilt their head and squint right and cherry-pick the right details. I really can't trust NKN about anything when it comes to "enviornmental" story-telling because they don't exactly do it. They instead have characters talk about what is important to pay attention to (and sometimes sneak things into the game descriptions).
It just gets... exhausting when everything and nothing has "evidence" for and against in a game. So I kinda feel like most "implied" world-building details can't really be trusted... while at least narrative themes and character arcs don't depend on that. And we have... a lot of interviews with NKN to know what directions they think various narrative themes and character arcs will go in. And most of those don't actually *need* the OG to happen the way it did...
It doesn't help either that a significant portion of the fan-base has a vested interest in not wanting the OG story to be deviated from more than it already is. So that... really colors the direction of most people's theorizing. It's... really hard to trust just about anyone's theories because most of them *start* from the idea that the OG story isn't changing and then look for ways to keep that story going.
If you're in the opposite camp of "the OG story is changing" there's a lot less things to prove. Because all the proof will come later anyway. Or rather, any deviation from the OG story is proof that the OG story is changing. And there's more than enough unexplained world-building that any "discrepancies" can be explained away later down the line.
At this point... trying to say we "know" what is happening with Zack and the Whispers is like trying to say we've figured out the how island in Lost "works" when we're at the end of Season 1.
They emotionally tend to flow one into the other (Marlene looking out the window at Barret who is calling for her; Aerith says something feels odd to her and then seeing Zack at the church, etc.) but it's also obvious that they're all happening at various times of day. And it's imposible to know if those times of day are "after" or "before" the previous cutscene's "time of day". What matters isn't the factual timeline, what matters is the emotional arcs.
In general, trouble I have with any theorizing about Remake is that *everything* has the potential to be a red herring. And NKN are massive trolls. They want us to not know what they're doing/planning and give evidence for just about every theory people can come up with. All people have to do is tilt their head and squint right and cherry-pick the right details. I really can't trust NKN about anything when it comes to "enviornmental" story-telling because they don't exactly do it. They instead have characters talk about what is important to pay attention to (and sometimes sneak things into the game descriptions).
It just gets... exhausting when everything and nothing has "evidence" for and against in a game. So I kinda feel like most "implied" world-building details can't really be trusted... while at least narrative themes and character arcs don't depend on that. And we have... a lot of interviews with NKN to know what directions they think various narrative themes and character arcs will go in. And most of those don't actually *need* the OG to happen the way it did...
It doesn't help either that a significant portion of the fan-base has a vested interest in not wanting the OG story to be deviated from more than it already is. So that... really colors the direction of most people's theorizing. It's... really hard to trust just about anyone's theories because most of them *start* from the idea that the OG story isn't changing and then look for ways to keep that story going.
If you're in the opposite camp of "the OG story is changing" there's a lot less things to prove. Because all the proof will come later anyway. Or rather, any deviation from the OG story is proof that the OG story is changing. And there's more than enough unexplained world-building that any "discrepancies" can be explained away later down the line.
At this point... trying to say we "know" what is happening with Zack and the Whispers is like trying to say we've figured out the how island in Lost "works" when we're at the end of Season 1.
KindOfBlue
Pro Adventurer
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- Blue
That’s pretty much why I don’t think AC is gonna happen in Remake’s continuity, at least not entirely. I’m sure elements of that and DoC can be worked into the ending or an epilogue of sorts but the actual conflicts themselves will always be the canon follow-up to the OG. Remake on the other hand…we’ll see. Either way, I really believe Remake’s gotta end with a permanent defeat to Sephiroth and all the other plot points resolved to close out the Compilation for good.
Yeah everything we know from before (BC, CC, OG FF7, AC, DoC) that’s all still intact in my opinion, while everything we’re seeing here with the Whispers is specific to the remake’s version of those events
That’s pretty much why I’m not totally all in on any particular theories just yet. I do think people read too much into whether or not certain scenes are taking place at the same time or not because I think the emotional impact is what’s prioritized here. No matter when exactly Zack arrived at the church, there’s no way that wouldn’t be the thing to end the DLC with, same as Zack carrying Cloud and seemingly passing Aerith in the main game.
LicoriceAllsorts
Donator
Why do people think Aerith is dead in Zack's timeline? Because NPCs are crying in the church?
KindOfBlue
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- Blue
That and the flowers appearing to be wilted, I think the people crying is still because of the plate but the flowers is something to consider
LNK
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- Nate
I think it was cool to have Zack in the ending to DLC, but I don't think it was a forgone conclusion that he would be there
KindOfBlue
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- Blue
No I agree, I definitely wasn’t expecting to see him but anything involving Zack would be the most WTF part of the story so if you’re going to put him in, might as well drop that bomb at the very end for maximum impact
LNK
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- Nate
Oh ok, yeah, I agree with that. I'm definitely looking forward to what's gonna happen with him! Hopefully it won't be more than 2 years of wait though
Obsidian Fire
Ahk Morn!
- AKA
- The Engineer
I swear. It's like people have never seen what happens to flowers in a garden when you *walk* all over them. They get bent and broken and get bruises that make it look like they're wilting. And Aerith not being there means she's not there to tell people not to walk on her flowers. Which people are doing.
Hence Zack being shocked when he sees them like that because it means Aerith hasn't yelled at these people to get off her flowers yet...
KindOfBlue
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- Blue
I will say that it’s probably gonna be depressing as hell so I’m preparing myself mentally lol
I think the shock is less to do with the flowers specifically and more about “wtf is going on and why are all these people here” but I am inclined to agree with you about the flowers, I’m not sold on them having some meaning in that scene unless the ultimania points them out or something
LNK
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- Nate
I hear ya haha. Final Fantasy games are the main reason why I play video games. If I don't have one to play, I get bored of games pretty quick. Might have to do another playthrough of ff6 or something
Eerie
Fire and Blood
I have already stated this, but only the kids are crying - and they loved Aerith. One is seemingly hurt, but no one is truly hurt aside him. The flowers are wilted, but more importantly, there is a sense of wrong in this scene, because Aerith is not there, and the church is full. Logically, you'd think that people are sad because of the plate fall, BUT in chapter 14 we have seen the church and it was empty. So people did not gather there after the plate fall.
Furthermore, "... Aerith?" definitely has that sense of dread - it's very cinematic. Aerith should be there, but she is not. So immediately, we think that "something has happened to her". The dedvs definitely want us to think that this is the case.
Claymore
3x3 Eyes
Absolutely loved the DLC. Yuffie is a lot of fun to play as, the music was on point, and the story (though we all saw it coming a mile away) still hit me ... only for it to be taken away seconds later once again. No one is going to actually die in this game, huh?
Aside from that, it was amazing, and the ending was emotional. Seeing the characters walking then riding to Kalm just brought back so many feels. Big ass open-world zones here we come!
Aside from that, it was amazing, and the ending was emotional. Seeing the characters walking then riding to Kalm just brought back so many feels. Big ass open-world zones here we come!
Shademp
420
My take on the Zack scene at the end of Intermission:
When Zack is standing on the church steps, he is almost definitely still in his own universe/timeline, at the beginning of October in year 0007. If Zack had seen the Sector 7 plate dropped, Zack would have worried for Aerith's safety and gone rushing to the church and looked overall distressed. The church may be in Sector 5 but it's still too close to comfort no matter where Aerith would have lived.
@Obsidian Fire's point about NKN emphasizing emotional resonance over causal coherence is still a frustrating truth and it's always there to negate any reasonable analysis, such as my assumption that the Sector 7 plate was still standing when Zack stood on the church steps.
Soon as Zack opens the church doors is when we can no longer be sure when or where we are. But I want to assume for a moment the, to me, simplest scenario.
Terrier Timeline, October, year 0007
Zack has not jumped universes or timelines when he opens the church doors. He is still in the Terrier Timeline, early October, year 0007. However, the explosion caused by the defeat of the Whispers was enough to injure many people and even result in Aerith's death. People, both injured and safe, gather in the church to mourn her.
Btw only just now noticed that the music playing when Zack looks into the church is a super-slowed-down version of Aerith's theme. A reunion between Zack and Aerith, while both are still alive, is something that fans have long been dreaming of and it's emotionally impactful to take that away when people thought the reunion was gonna happen.
Any complications to the story like timeline/universe-jumping, or the possible implications that maybe Aerith's death was supernatural and not simply a case of her getting crushed to death by some falling debris, will come later. If the story wants to make a big deal of the explosion that seemingly killed her and injured other people in Midgar, then Shinra may take this moment to claim the explosion was a terrorist attack.
The main problem with this speculated course of events is the inciting incident: The Whisper-explosion. If loads of people got hurt because of the Whisper-explosion, Zack would already have noticed when he entered Midgar. We're back to wondering why Zack wasn't already concerned for Aerith's safety when he was standing on the church steps.
Thus we consider scenarios of temporal displacement. When Zack opened the church doors he was either sent two months into the future (Terrier Timeline, December, year 0007) or sent into the main universe (Beagle Timeline, December, year 0007). This complicates matters beyond deduction. But if it WAS the Beagle Timeline Zack got sent into, it would remove the emotional impact of Aerith's death preventing a reunion between her and Zack. Ergo why I'm leaning more into this having all to do with events in the Terrier Timeline and not Zack suddenly jumping universe.
When Zack is standing on the church steps, he is almost definitely still in his own universe/timeline, at the beginning of October in year 0007. If Zack had seen the Sector 7 plate dropped, Zack would have worried for Aerith's safety and gone rushing to the church and looked overall distressed. The church may be in Sector 5 but it's still too close to comfort no matter where Aerith would have lived.
@Obsidian Fire's point about NKN emphasizing emotional resonance over causal coherence is still a frustrating truth and it's always there to negate any reasonable analysis, such as my assumption that the Sector 7 plate was still standing when Zack stood on the church steps.
Soon as Zack opens the church doors is when we can no longer be sure when or where we are. But I want to assume for a moment the, to me, simplest scenario.
Terrier Timeline, October, year 0007
Zack has not jumped universes or timelines when he opens the church doors. He is still in the Terrier Timeline, early October, year 0007. However, the explosion caused by the defeat of the Whispers was enough to injure many people and even result in Aerith's death. People, both injured and safe, gather in the church to mourn her.
Btw only just now noticed that the music playing when Zack looks into the church is a super-slowed-down version of Aerith's theme. A reunion between Zack and Aerith, while both are still alive, is something that fans have long been dreaming of and it's emotionally impactful to take that away when people thought the reunion was gonna happen.
Any complications to the story like timeline/universe-jumping, or the possible implications that maybe Aerith's death was supernatural and not simply a case of her getting crushed to death by some falling debris, will come later. If the story wants to make a big deal of the explosion that seemingly killed her and injured other people in Midgar, then Shinra may take this moment to claim the explosion was a terrorist attack.
The main problem with this speculated course of events is the inciting incident: The Whisper-explosion. If loads of people got hurt because of the Whisper-explosion, Zack would already have noticed when he entered Midgar. We're back to wondering why Zack wasn't already concerned for Aerith's safety when he was standing on the church steps.
Thus we consider scenarios of temporal displacement. When Zack opened the church doors he was either sent two months into the future (Terrier Timeline, December, year 0007) or sent into the main universe (Beagle Timeline, December, year 0007). This complicates matters beyond deduction. But if it WAS the Beagle Timeline Zack got sent into, it would remove the emotional impact of Aerith's death preventing a reunion between her and Zack. Ergo why I'm leaning more into this having all to do with events in the Terrier Timeline and not Zack suddenly jumping universe.
LicoriceAllsorts
Donator
How do we even know that the scene of Zack appearing at the church door follows chronologically from the scene in which he defeats the Shinra troopers? People are making a lot of assumptions, for a game which has so far shown it enjoys playing with time and exploding assumptions.
a_apple 2.0
Pro Adventurer
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- a_apple
the theory that because Zack survived in his timeline and that this will lead to a chain reaction of bad things happening seems legit fucked up to me. Like it's such a dark and hopeless message that I can't really see the game going there.
It's like the reverse version of that old ass movie where there is that guy who says that he wished he was never born and then sees how shitty his town would be if he didn't exists. FF7r's version would be that Zack is happy that he is alive (even though he wouldn't really know at this point that he doge dat bullet) just for him to realize how bad that would be. Like the message of his story would be "kys" even though Zack never asks for any of this, it's unnecessary cruel and doesn't really fit with Nomura's other games.
Same with Aerith her story shouldn't be "Listen it's nice you are still around BUT you kinda have to die so everyone else can be happy" it should be the opposite everything should be even more fantastic with them around and then they tragically still die or something
It's like the reverse version of that old ass movie where there is that guy who says that he wished he was never born and then sees how shitty his town would be if he didn't exists. FF7r's version would be that Zack is happy that he is alive (even though he wouldn't really know at this point that he doge dat bullet) just for him to realize how bad that would be. Like the message of his story would be "kys" even though Zack never asks for any of this, it's unnecessary cruel and doesn't really fit with Nomura's other games.
Same with Aerith her story shouldn't be "Listen it's nice you are still around BUT you kinda have to die so everyone else can be happy" it should be the opposite everything should be even more fantastic with them around and then they tragically still die or something
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Shademp
420
This is correct and I do feel a bit dirty for allowing Square to stimulate my speculation-glands
a_apple 2.0
Pro Adventurer
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- a_apple
For me it's because of Aerith's line before that scene. It looks to me like the game is pointing out again "LOOK AT THIS SOMETHING IS HAPPENING PAY ATTENTION"
Like I know some people say it's a reference to Aerith's fear of the sky, but just how the scene plays out makes that unlikely imo, she is the entire time outside and perfectly fine, but then when it's suddenly rains she becomes uneasy? That was never a thing for her that she feared rain or the night and the fact that she herself finds this strange is the biggest give away that something is tingling her spider sense.
Edit: I just realized that you were talking about the Shinra troops