SPOILERS INTERmission Chapter 2 Spoiler Discussion

[Eerie]

I really wouldn’t think that much about the assets being used when it comes to theorycrafting, overthinking the skyboxes is already exhausting enough

While it's true, and like, I don't think they're related to the NPC we see at the beginning of Remake for example, it quite begs the question as to why they chose to not reuse NPC that we somehow already saw in sector 7. Then again, whatever, not the same team, blablabla.

As is always the case with the “developer’s intent” argument, unless the developer specifically expresses said intent, it’s far too easy to project one’s own interpretation into a scene and get it completely wrong so unless the ultimania tells us we’re meant to believe that Aerith might be dead in Zack’s time, I’ll take that idea with about as much of a grain of salt as any other idea proposed here

Yeah no. Again, the way it's filmed, the dramatisation of Aerith's name on a black screen is not meant to make you think "oh those NPCs are crying because of the plate fall, and Aerith is not there because she's with Cloud, duh!"

It's meant to tell you that something has happened to Aerith specifically. They want us to wonder about her. If Zack is in an alternate timeline - the most popular theory until proven otherwise - it means that there must be an Aerith in his timeline too, one who didn't meet up with Cloud, Tifa, Barret... Why isn't Aerith present? By having her name said like this, the developpers don't want us to think "oh plate fall" they want us to think "What happened to Aerith???" And I really don't know how anyone can dismiss this. This isn't even theorycrafting at this point as it's much obvious; go watch Max' talk about this, as he watches the ending scene, you'll see he doesn't have to think twice to come up with this. He literally voiced what I was feeling about this scene, the nagging feeling I had and that literally hit me as he was watching "oh she's dead that's why it was such a heavy feeling". It's like when Aerith talks to Cloud in her resolution, you watch that scene and at that moment, I knew that she knew she was going to die soon; and that has been confirmed then by the devs. "Oh shit she knows!" and now "oh shit, she's dead!", those are feelings the developpers want people to feel in a way they can't really explain until they dissect the scenes.

The real theorycrafting comes after; what has happened to Aerith? Is she dead? Has she been kidnapped by Shinra and a kid tried to protect her?

I will say this, as a non-zerith shipper: they are creating the need for people to see Zack and Aerith reunite while alive. How will it be done, by merging worlds, etc. people can start theorycrafting *from there*: like, if there is a Zack somewhere who died to protect Cloud so the OG timeline could go on... then it means if there is a Zack alive, that his Aerith has to be dead. If there is a merging world then think about why Elmyra and Barret haven't talked about her going to Kalm. Because Elmyra will be needed to guide Zack. It can only happen if she stays in Midgar for now. The fact that Aerith 2 would be dead is actually an excellent argument in favour of merging timelines. And I'm pretty sure that Zack will be needed against this new Sephiroth, so it's a good way to bring him around (since he hasn't got an Aerith to make a singularity that could help him).

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

There are other instances of this type of future contextualizing happening in the Remake, but this one in Intergrade is the most direct, in-your-face example. So if anything, there are mixed messages being conveyed. Between that and their own commentary via interviews, I don't know if the writers are that "all-in" on doing things completely different here. I suppose we'll see.

This really shouldn't be as controversial an observation as it's being made out to be. =\ Nomura told us in an interview five years ago that one of the things they'd be doing with the remake is better connecting the Compilation to the framework of the original story ... =\

And even without that, I just don't see how this DLC "willfully contradicted Dirge," as @Tetsujin put it. Yuffie learned precisely what here? That Shinra has a few more SOLDIER freaks than just Sephiroth? Whoopdeedoo. =P

Wess is an interesting example. Because the devil is in the details. And enough details are missing from the set-up of Hojo's plan in DoC that make me think it won't be happening in Remake the same way for the same reasons.

Namely, Hojo didn't get interested in taking over... anyone really... until he saw Vincent who could transform into Chaos, which proved Lucrecia's theories about Omega right. This lead to him copying Fragments of himself onto the Network as he was dying... where they'd stay for the next three years...

Weiss would later SND into the Network in order to figure out a cure or the virus the Restrictors were using to kill him... right at the same time the WRO turned the Network on again. Which lead to Hojo's Fragments in the Network taking Weiss over because he was the perfect host for Omega.

In Intergrade... a lot of the needed steps for this to happen are missing. Hojo hasn't seen Vincent transforming into Chaos and doesn't know Omega is an option yet (heck, Hojo might not have been infected with Jenova's desire to travel the stars yet!). Weiss still hasn't taken over Deepground yet and has yet to be in danger of the virus at all. What was done with him to make the VR copy was Weiss doing an SND on the Network.

So a reference to "Hojo takes over Weiss" is sort-of there in the VR room. It looks like it's Hojo making use of Weiss' data to guage how good Cloud and Co. are. But how it's done is far enough removed from the circumstances of DoC's plot that I'm not sure DoC's plot will happen as a result of it.

Dirge never suggested that Hojo only became aware of or interested in the potential of digitizing consciousness after seeing Vincent's transformation into Chaos.

Also, his "Good to know" comment about what happens when you "transcend the flesh"? While using Weiss specifically? Absolutely valid as setting up what happens in Dirge, even if Weiss and Deepground don't come up again for the rest of the remake project.

 

[Clement Rage]

The Whispers allow the party into DG in Remake...and pointedly kick them out, before they discover too much. I feel like that rather proves my point.

The Whispers have symbolic value to the players as rejecting the compilation timeline, but they exist in universe as entities that have particular goals. When Cloud is fighting them, he's not fighting symbolism, he's fighting tangible ghosts with discernable goals.

The only reason they would protect OG Canon but not Dirge is if metagaming is happening in universe. Which would be bad, because it means they've failed to provide in universe motivations...but they have already in game provided in universe goals for them in that they are protecting the timeline. The timeline as a whole, not the OG Canon. If we were supposed to use out of universe logic to provide in universe motivations, then they never would have provided the 'protect the timeline' motivation for the Whispers. Symbolism works out of universe, but it doesn't work in universe. If you're going to use symbolism as the explanation, that requires ignoring the motivation they already have given us in universe (and means they've fucked up the in universe motivations)

[/quote]
Things to take issue with: Yuffie hears the name "Deepground," and Yuffie's friend is killed by Nero, who in DoC she has no big reaction to meeting (though she does get oddly emotional at Shelke for having such a disregard for her older sister, which kinda reminds me of Sonon now...)
Like I said before, Yuffie could easily forget the name deepground, as she hears it once and never gets context for what it even is anyway, so I'd consider that not a huge deal. We never see her initial reaction to them in DoC, so she could have been like "oh shit it's those guys." It's harder to grapple with her reaction to Nero (obviously when DoC was written, Sonon was not a thing,) so I'm gonna hide behind what I'm still considering the smoking gun of the argument here, the whispers. [/quote]

She hears the name Deepground...from the person that kills Sonon in front of her after he dies protecting her. Kinda a memorable event, don't you think? She sees the DG uniform, and recognises it as something distinct from the people they have been fighting previously, and recognises Nero as being on the same team.

Yuffie also works for the intelligence dept of the WRO, where it's a massive plot point that they are not prepared for and don't understand what is happening at first. They're not expecting trouble in Shinra HQ, they bring a news reporter on their expedition.

Y'all have been analysing potato chip bags and wilting flowers for 15 pages. Stop telling me this is too small to care about.

 

[Makoeyes987]

She hears the name Deepground...from the person that kills Sonon in front of her after he dies protecting her. Kinda a memorable event, don't you think?

Not memorable in the sense she'd take a mental note of unique paramilitary ranks of a corporation and then file away this single codename use of a word never heard of again until 3 years after a world saving quest against an alien and its hellspawn. Traumatic experience doesn't work that way. The directly personal experience and emotion of what she felt in that moment will override any unconnected details. Because these details are distant and lack tangible connection to her own lived experience; its useless information to her. Yuffie would only remember Sonon dying and some freak in bondage get-up being the one that attacked them. She's not going to remember specific ranks or names, especially ones encountered only once. For Yuffie, all of Shinra are evil and it doesn't matter if they're called Foreground or Deepsky. They are the enemy and delineating them is a waste of time. Shinra is Shinra.

 

[Clement Rage]

Demonstrably not true, she has already distinguished DG as distinct from the rest of Shinra even in the DLC itself.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Yuffie also works for the intelligence dept of the WRO, where it's a massive plot point that they are not prepared for and don't understand what is happening at first.

That's not what I remember from Dirge at all ... Reeve and the WRO command are well aware of the names, ranks, etc. of the Tsviets by the beginning of the game thanks to intel they've recently recovered that belonged to Scarlet.

For all we know, they knew where to start digging when these psychos showed up because Yuffie said "Hey, I recognize these uniforms. Scarlet was there too."

 

[Makoeyes987]

Yuffie literally calls them "these assholes."

That's "distinguishing DG as distinct from the rest of Shinra?"

I think it's safe to say she thinks of all of Shinra as assholes.

 

[Odysseus]

Stop telling me this is too small to care about.

I was never trying to tell anyone what to think, I was just trying to have a discussion because I think it's kind of interesting. =/

 

[Clement Rage]

Y'all have just finished analysing timeline issues down to the tiniest grains of sand, but the gist of the responses I got for a different one that I happen to care about was that it was too small to matter. That's actually weirdly hurtful.

The attacks catch them in the middle of a festival flat footed. They sent the rescue teams in with a news reporter. They have some information, but they obviously weren't prepared for what they got, and if she said anything about Nero, that rescue team would not have brought a reporter with them.

Mako, the full line is 'who are these assholes' By asking the question, she's acknowledging that they're something distinct. If they were just another random branch of Shinra, why would she need to ask that? She doesn't do it for any of the other shinra people they've already fought when she encounters some new kind of Shinra troops.

 

[Roundhouse]

If Aerith really is dead, where does Zack go from here? I have no clue what his role will be in that context, hmm.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

The attacks catch them in the middle of a festival flat footed.

No? The WRO has a response ready in minutes -- because they were already there. Reeve had told Vincent to meet him in Kalm. He wanted to discuss Deepground.

Remember that 1200 people had been taken from Junon recently, and the WRO was keeping a lid on that number to keep panic down a little. They were not just learning of Deepground's existence at the beginning of the game.

 

[looneymoon]

I'm fighting Weiss and suddenly I have to learn how to dodge

 

[KindOfBlue]

until he saw Vincent who could transform into Chaos

Yeah no. Again, the way it's filmed, the dramatisation of Aerith's name on a black screen is not meant to make you think "oh those NPCs are crying because of the plate fall, and Aerith is not there because she's with Cloud, duh!"

That scene shortly follows Yuffie witnessing the plate falling, so if the point to be made here is about the devs’ intent, why would it be such a stretch to assume the people in the church are survivors from sector 7?

Of all the streamers I watched, Max was the only one who came up with the “Aerith is dead” idea so it’s not like scenes like this are meant to be obvious as to what they imply. Everybody who has ever been sure about where a story is going justifies it with “well, obviously THIS is the creator’s intent”, and everybody can’t be right you know lol.

Like I said, I’ll get on that train when the devs tell me to. For now, them choosing to end with Zack saying “Aerith?” can just as easily be simply what they felt was the most dramatic way to end the scene. I don’t think “what happened?” packs quite the same punch even though both questions can evoke the same sense of “I was expecting to find my girlfriend and instead I find all these people. Why?”

This really shouldn't be as controversial an observation as it's being made out to be. =\ Nomura told us in an interview five years ago that one of the things they'd be doing with the remake is better connecting the Compilation to the framework of the original story ... =\

I think maybe it’s because that statement coupled with all of this “unknown journey” business leaves some ambiguity as to how they plan to incorporate the Compilation, whether it’s by making the lead-in to the inevitable more fleshed out or by just picking it apart and rebuilding it as a new layer of story. That they were able to create uncertainty in a remake of a 20+ year old story actually impresses me even if the execution wasn’t totally perfect.

 

[Eerie]

That scene shortly follows Yuffie witnessing the plate falling, so if the point to be made here is about the devs’ intent, why would it be such a stretch to assume the people in the church are survivors from sector 7?

No it doesn't. It follows the scene where the party arrives in Kalm, so we're meant to understand that this happens at least when they arrive there, so... way after the plate fell (2 nights and it's somewhere during the 3rd day). Most people are going to assume it's at the same time. Are we going to make a connection about the plate fall? Maybe those people are there for that. But once you realise the whole scene is bizarre, the 'Aerith' with the Ultimania pointing at a different reality do point out that something else has happened there regarding Aerith.

Like I said, I’ll get on that train when the devs tell me to. For now, them choosing to end with Zack saying “Aerith?” can just as easily be simply what they felt was the most dramatic way to end the scene. I don’t think “what happened?” packs quite the same punch even though both questions can evoke the same sense of “I was expecting to find my girlfriend and instead I find all these people. Why?”

Even then, if you don't want to make people wonder what's going on with Aerith, you don't end the scene with her name on a black screen.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I'm fighting Weiss and suddenly I have to learn how to dodge

Don't worry, you'll curbstomp him eventually just like you did everything else.

I expect you to eventually post you managed to beat him in 2 minutes before you're done with the game.

 

[Eerie]

I just finished watching the CC story, and ho boy, so much to say, so little time. All I wanna say is "I hope Genesis won't make a return" lol it has to be my most hated character in the Compilation. The goth emo poet absolutely made me want to smack him right after the first verse lol.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I just finished watching the CC story, and ho boy, so much to say, so little time. All I wanna say is "I hope Genesis won't make a return" lol it has to be my most hated character in the Compilation. The goth emo poet absolutely made me want to smack him right after the first verse lol.

You never played Crisis Core before? LOL oh wow...

So you just now learned about all those aspects about it? I could've sworn you already knew/played it... I must have confused you with another poster. So then, does that mean you haven't played any other Compilation games either?

 

[Eerie]

I knew some parts because of you guys, because I've seen some gifs and clips, but never the full story. It was on PSP lol do you really think I had a PSP? Nope. I had little care for the Compilation, I only had watched AC/C (and hated the former version of it).

And I didn't play nor watched BC or DoC either! Which is why I'm plenty lost about the DoC discussions and let the people who know about it discuss it XD DoC is maybe more interesting to me (Vincent!) but I'm not keen on FPS either (boo), sooooo yeah lol. Not super keen on watching BC because it's not written by Nojima and the characterisation of Zack - whom I loved in CC - will probably bug me. I'm extreme like that

 

[LNK]

It follows the scene where the party arrives in Kalm, so we're meant to understand that this happens at least when they arrive there, so... way after the plate fell

If that is the case, then the team arriving in Kalm is at least 2 months after Zack survives his battle. How can that time gap be explained for Zack? What was he doing for two months before finally going to see Aerith?

 

[Eerie]

The same problem has always applied to Cloud, although Cloud had lost his memories at that point. However my gut feelings tell me it's got to do with the singularity that may have mixed up time there.

 

[Sephiroth Crescent]

So how about Zack and the people inside the church are not as alive as they all look?

This would explain why the church's inside looks like taken directly from Zack's past memories, right?
You people remember their intent was to mess around with fans, right? Oh, well... I'll die alone on that hill...

PS: DoC FTW!!!

 

[Obsidian Fire]

You people remember their intent was to mess around with fans, right? Oh, well... I'll die alone on that hill...

You are not alone. NKN are total trolls and love messing with fans heads when they can get away with it.

BC has the most in-depth look at Shinra and it's an invaluable resource for figuring out what Shinra is "typically" doing when they aren't dealing with Sephiroth, Avalanche, SOLDIER desertions, etc. It's... probably the most "grounded" of any Compilation entry as it doesn't focus on the Jenova plot at all really. It's mainly about anti-terrorism and working for a company the Turks increasingly are finding they don't agree with on a lot of occasions. It's the FFVII equivalent of an office drama almost.

DoC is the most "anime" entry of the entire Compilation in a lot of ways. And is potentially the least grounded of all. Even though all the lore doesn't actually *retcon* anything...

 

[KindOfBlue]

No it doesn't. It follows the scene where the party arrives in Kalm, so we're meant to understand that this happens at least when they arrive there, so... way after the plate fell (2 nights and it's somewhere during the 3rd day). Most people are going to assume it's at the same time. Are we going to make a connection about the plate fall? Maybe those people are there for that. But once you realise the whole scene is bizarre, the 'Aerith' with the Ultimania pointing at a different reality do point out that something else has happened there regarding Aerith.

Aerith arriving at Kalm and Zack arriving at the church doesn’t even happen at the same point in the day so there’s no way to confirm that they happen at the same time yet, whereas there’s a much wider window for sector 7 survivors to be in the church because it’s not like everything’s just gonna go back to normal after like 2 days or so

Even then, if you don't want to make people wonder what's going on with Aerith, you don't end the scene with her name on a black screen.

When they just showed you were she is right beforehand, does it really make much of a difference? It’s not that they don’t want people to wonder about her, it’s that fans will overthink everything no matter how simple of an explanation can be made…what we don’t know is where in time Zack is, it’s only natural for him to ask about Aerith, that’s who he’s looking for lol I’m not even against the idea, it’s just that much like the two timelines thing, what “should” be obvious is totally subjective

 

[Shademp]

Just realized I hope that we'll see the hover scooter from the DoC prologue by the time we reach the Midgar-Mako-Cannon events in FF7R. That'd be a neat nod.

Always amuses me that the only time we see the hover scooter's design in considerable detail is in promotional material where DoC-Yuffie is riding it, even though we only ever see her OG-self on the scooter in the actual game.

Spoiler: Promotional

 

[a_apple 2.0]

People pointed out that the church in Barrets keyart has also a wooden cross. I think at this point it's safe to say the church we see in the DLC isn't suppose to look any different and all the little inconsistencies are really nothing else but SE being a bit negligent here BUT to be fair only weirdos like us would ever notice shit like this in the first place