SPOILERS INTERmission Chapter 2 Spoiler Discussion

[The Twilight Mexican]

The attacks catch them in the middle of a festival flat footed.

No? The WRO has a response ready in minutes -- because they were already there. Reeve had told Vincent to meet him in Kalm. He wanted to discuss Deepground.

Remember that 1200 people had been taken from Junon recently, and the WRO was keeping a lid on that number to keep panic down a little. They were not just learning of Deepground's existence at the beginning of the game.

 

[looneymoon]

I'm fighting Weiss and suddenly I have to learn how to dodge

 

[KindOfBlue]

until he saw Vincent who could transform into Chaos

Yeah no. Again, the way it's filmed, the dramatisation of Aerith's name on a black screen is not meant to make you think "oh those NPCs are crying because of the plate fall, and Aerith is not there because she's with Cloud, duh!"

That scene shortly follows Yuffie witnessing the plate falling, so if the point to be made here is about the devs’ intent, why would it be such a stretch to assume the people in the church are survivors from sector 7?

Of all the streamers I watched, Max was the only one who came up with the “Aerith is dead” idea so it’s not like scenes like this are meant to be obvious as to what they imply. Everybody who has ever been sure about where a story is going justifies it with “well, obviously THIS is the creator’s intent”, and everybody can’t be right you know lol.

Like I said, I’ll get on that train when the devs tell me to. For now, them choosing to end with Zack saying “Aerith?” can just as easily be simply what they felt was the most dramatic way to end the scene. I don’t think “what happened?” packs quite the same punch even though both questions can evoke the same sense of “I was expecting to find my girlfriend and instead I find all these people. Why?”

This really shouldn't be as controversial an observation as it's being made out to be. =\ Nomura told us in an interview five years ago that one of the things they'd be doing with the remake is better connecting the Compilation to the framework of the original story ... =\

I think maybe it’s because that statement coupled with all of this “unknown journey” business leaves some ambiguity as to how they plan to incorporate the Compilation, whether it’s by making the lead-in to the inevitable more fleshed out or by just picking it apart and rebuilding it as a new layer of story. That they were able to create uncertainty in a remake of a 20+ year old story actually impresses me even if the execution wasn’t totally perfect.

 

[Eerie]

That scene shortly follows Yuffie witnessing the plate falling, so if the point to be made here is about the devs’ intent, why would it be such a stretch to assume the people in the church are survivors from sector 7?

No it doesn't. It follows the scene where the party arrives in Kalm, so we're meant to understand that this happens at least when they arrive there, so... way after the plate fell (2 nights and it's somewhere during the 3rd day). Most people are going to assume it's at the same time. Are we going to make a connection about the plate fall? Maybe those people are there for that. But once you realise the whole scene is bizarre, the 'Aerith' with the Ultimania pointing at a different reality do point out that something else has happened there regarding Aerith.

Like I said, I’ll get on that train when the devs tell me to. For now, them choosing to end with Zack saying “Aerith?” can just as easily be simply what they felt was the most dramatic way to end the scene. I don’t think “what happened?” packs quite the same punch even though both questions can evoke the same sense of “I was expecting to find my girlfriend and instead I find all these people. Why?”

Even then, if you don't want to make people wonder what's going on with Aerith, you don't end the scene with her name on a black screen.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I'm fighting Weiss and suddenly I have to learn how to dodge

Don't worry, you'll curbstomp him eventually just like you did everything else.

I expect you to eventually post you managed to beat him in 2 minutes before you're done with the game.

 

[Eerie]

I just finished watching the CC story, and ho boy, so much to say, so little time. All I wanna say is "I hope Genesis won't make a return" lol it has to be my most hated character in the Compilation. The goth emo poet absolutely made me want to smack him right after the first verse lol.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I just finished watching the CC story, and ho boy, so much to say, so little time. All I wanna say is "I hope Genesis won't make a return" lol it has to be my most hated character in the Compilation. The goth emo poet absolutely made me want to smack him right after the first verse lol.

You never played Crisis Core before? LOL oh wow...

So you just now learned about all those aspects about it? I could've sworn you already knew/played it... I must have confused you with another poster. So then, does that mean you haven't played any other Compilation games either?

 

[Eerie]

I knew some parts because of you guys, because I've seen some gifs and clips, but never the full story. It was on PSP lol do you really think I had a PSP? Nope. I had little care for the Compilation, I only had watched AC/C (and hated the former version of it).

And I didn't play nor watched BC or DoC either! Which is why I'm plenty lost about the DoC discussions and let the people who know about it discuss it XD DoC is maybe more interesting to me (Vincent!) but I'm not keen on FPS either (boo), sooooo yeah lol. Not super keen on watching BC because it's not written by Nojima and the characterisation of Zack - whom I loved in CC - will probably bug me. I'm extreme like that

 

[LNK]

It follows the scene where the party arrives in Kalm, so we're meant to understand that this happens at least when they arrive there, so... way after the plate fell

If that is the case, then the team arriving in Kalm is at least 2 months after Zack survives his battle. How can that time gap be explained for Zack? What was he doing for two months before finally going to see Aerith?

 

[Eerie]

The same problem has always applied to Cloud, although Cloud had lost his memories at that point. However my gut feelings tell me it's got to do with the singularity that may have mixed up time there.

 

[Sephiroth Crescent]

So how about Zack and the people inside the church are not as alive as they all look?

This would explain why the church's inside looks like taken directly from Zack's past memories, right?
You people remember their intent was to mess around with fans, right? Oh, well... I'll die alone on that hill...

PS: DoC FTW!!!

 

[Obsidian Fire]

You people remember their intent was to mess around with fans, right? Oh, well... I'll die alone on that hill...

You are not alone. NKN are total trolls and love messing with fans heads when they can get away with it.

BC has the most in-depth look at Shinra and it's an invaluable resource for figuring out what Shinra is "typically" doing when they aren't dealing with Sephiroth, Avalanche, SOLDIER desertions, etc. It's... probably the most "grounded" of any Compilation entry as it doesn't focus on the Jenova plot at all really. It's mainly about anti-terrorism and working for a company the Turks increasingly are finding they don't agree with on a lot of occasions. It's the FFVII equivalent of an office drama almost.

DoC is the most "anime" entry of the entire Compilation in a lot of ways. And is potentially the least grounded of all. Even though all the lore doesn't actually *retcon* anything...

 

[KindOfBlue]

No it doesn't. It follows the scene where the party arrives in Kalm, so we're meant to understand that this happens at least when they arrive there, so... way after the plate fell (2 nights and it's somewhere during the 3rd day). Most people are going to assume it's at the same time. Are we going to make a connection about the plate fall? Maybe those people are there for that. But once you realise the whole scene is bizarre, the 'Aerith' with the Ultimania pointing at a different reality do point out that something else has happened there regarding Aerith.

Aerith arriving at Kalm and Zack arriving at the church doesn’t even happen at the same point in the day so there’s no way to confirm that they happen at the same time yet, whereas there’s a much wider window for sector 7 survivors to be in the church because it’s not like everything’s just gonna go back to normal after like 2 days or so

Even then, if you don't want to make people wonder what's going on with Aerith, you don't end the scene with her name on a black screen.

When they just showed you were she is right beforehand, does it really make much of a difference? It’s not that they don’t want people to wonder about her, it’s that fans will overthink everything no matter how simple of an explanation can be made…what we don’t know is where in time Zack is, it’s only natural for him to ask about Aerith, that’s who he’s looking for lol I’m not even against the idea, it’s just that much like the two timelines thing, what “should” be obvious is totally subjective

 

[Shademp]

Just realized I hope that we'll see the hover scooter from the DoC prologue by the time we reach the Midgar-Mako-Cannon events in FF7R. That'd be a neat nod.

Always amuses me that the only time we see the hover scooter's design in considerable detail is in promotional material where DoC-Yuffie is riding it, even though we only ever see her OG-self on the scooter in the actual game.

Spoiler: Promotional

 

[a_apple 2.0]

People pointed out that the church in Barrets keyart has also a wooden cross. I think at this point it's safe to say the church we see in the DLC isn't suppose to look any different and all the little inconsistencies are really nothing else but SE being a bit negligent here BUT to be fair only weirdos like us would ever notice shit like this in the first place

 

[a_apple 2.0]

Aerith arriving at Kalm and Zack arriving at the church doesn’t even happen at the same point in the day so there’s no way to confirm that they happen at the same time yet

It could easily be the same time tho. Not that it has to but the ending of the DLC makes it look like it's evening but that's because of the rain. You had the same affect at the ending of part one where it looked like the sun was already setting just for it 5 minutes later to be clear and sunny again.

 

[LNK]

The same problem has always applied to Cloud, although Cloud had lost his memories at that point. However my gut feelings tell me it's got to do with the singularity that may have mixed up time there.

It very well might be what's going on, but that doesn't mean we know for sure right now. It could very well just be kids of the slums mourning the deaths from the platefall. I still think Zack could be in the afterlife, and all those kids are there with him

 

[looneymoon]

maybe the wood cross is like the wood door

 

[LNK]

I also noticed a difference in when Zack first opens the church doors, and when Reno first opens them. (I don't remember if that comparison was already brought up) behind Zack, it is completely white, just like in ACC. Behind Reno, you can clearly see outside the church. This is part of why I still think Zack is actually dead

 

[Clement Rage]

No? The WRO has a response ready in minutes -- because they were already there. Reeve had told Vincent to meet him in Kalm. He wanted to discuss Deepground.

Remember that 1200 people had been taken from Junon recently, and the WRO was keeping a lid on that number to keep panic down a little. They were not just learning of Deepground's existence at the beginning of the game.

See the rest of my post. I acknowledge that they had some information, but they weren't expecting what they got. They have some Scarlet information, but the screams from Midgar are still just rumours, and the WRO Commander in Edge knows Rosso's name but not what she looks like.

They know something's up, they're on alert, but they're reacting, they're not properly mobilised until the lategame and not set up for war until later. They don't have an active presence in Kalm until well after the attack begins.

The team opening the door at the start of the game have no idea what they're getting into, they're not set up for battle and are taking reporters who ony know about 'rumours' of human experimentation. At the very least, Yuffie would know 'there's a very dangerous dude down there with freaky swirly black stuff, if you're going down there go prepared for war.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

The team opening the door at the start of the game have no idea what they're getting into, they're not set up for battle and are taking reporters who ony know about 'rumours' of human experimentation.

It's been three weeks from the time that happened until the start of the game. Time in which they've been doing research, probably into Scarlet, and plausibly pointed in that direction by Yuffie.

Also, Reeve is on the record that the WRO has been lying to the media ...

Also also: is it established anywhere who the crew going down there were? Do we even know they were WRO? The reporter just says something about volunteers.

At the very least, Yuffie would know 'there's a very dangerous dude down there with freaky swirly black stuff, if you're going down there go prepared for war.

Maybe per her warning, the WRO said "Don't go down there at all"?

 

[Roundhouse]

Eerie, now you have seen the brilliance of Genesis, and why he absolutely needs to return in the remake!

 

[LNK]

Eerie, now you have seen the brilliance of Genesis, and why he absolutely needs to return in the remake!

And then, and then, the collector's edition can include a leather bound book of Loveless! Not kidding haha. I actually thought about binding my own version of it

 

[Odysseus]

Probably worth mentioning that Yuffie knew of exactly one (1) scary darkness man, a few offhand mentions of his brother, and a handful of grunts that just so happened to be in the weapons development basement, not that Shinra had an entire massive underground military complex complete with an army more well-equipped than their normal one. I think a bit too much onus is being put on her to know all of these details and properly warn Reeve or whoever when she never even had any context for what a "deepground" is beyond being the place where Nero and his brother (no details about who that brother is) liked to "play." Why would she even assume anyone was still alive after Midgar became a wrecked, irradiated junk pile after Meteor? I don't think those news reporters were WRO anyhow, just the normal media looking for some scandalous scoop on Shinra's dirty laundry, so Yuffie was probably not informed about what they were doing. I'm not even sure why anyone would ask her anyway, if she never brought up those weirdos she fought that one time. Tres' narrative of her informing Reeve about her encounter with Scarlet after incidents start occuring, leading to the WRO looking into Scarlet's files is probably the thing that makes the most sense in terms of tying this retcon together with Dirge's plot.

 

[ForceStealer]

I should have known this thread would have been 12 pages of talking about Zack before any of you had even fucking played the thing.

Anyway. Chapter 2 was also a great time, although more for gameplay reasons than Chapter 1. This definitely very quickly started to have Dirge-y vibes. I'm curious to what extent I would have picked up on that had I not watched the trailers. But as soon as we're in the basement floors of the Shinra building it looks like every hallway in Dirge.

Gameplay continued to be great, I enjoyed all the abilities at play. And the fact that Sonon was definitively only going to be a support character made his materia loadouts a different exercise than the main characters. The fact that he started with all Purple materia alluded to that, I suppose.

I liked those materia manufacturing labs. The pods themselves resembled the materia fusion stations in Crisis Core, but the amount of power involved to make like...16 materia implies cool things about them. Also all the lovingly-rendered bits to giant mechs and wall of Heli Gunners, good stuff.

Love that the first thing Yuffie does in the main lab is the sit in Scarlet's chair. Relatable
Less relatable: if I'm to believe you're both as furious at Shinra as you say, how the hell does Scarlet get out unscathed from being completely at your mercy? I felt like beginning of Jurassic Park. "Shoot her!" Obviously the Time Ghosts would have prevented you from killing her, but still.

Stealing the core being a way to weaken those mech enemies was awesome. (also, the item you take is called "Armor Core?" Amazing.)

Still completely wild seeing Deepground in the remake. Never would have imagined.... Frankly, I don't mind. As dumb as Dirge is, even it avoided including time paradoxes. It also helps that the Nero fight frickin ruled. They made him way more imposing than before. Seeing Shinra try to re-restrain him when things started going awry was appreciated. It's good to know that at least they had SOME kind of plan. Although I have to wonder how they got him under control after all this. In my fight, things were starting to go tits up at the end, but both of my team had limits, so I used Sonon's, it went off, and Nero promptly killed him, and then Yuffie's limit finished him. If the story had acted as though that was how Sonon died, it would have been a lot more impactful. "Why this super drawn-out death? I don't even know who this guy is."

That shot of the topside view of the plate collapsing, though? That was chilling. Crazy how that alternate perspective just made me feel it differently on it's own.

And that ending, oh God that ending. That was everything I could have ever wanted for the actual ending to part 1 As with everything else, when the Remake plays something straight it does so in a way that is SO MUCH MORE THAN I COULD HAVE EVER HOPED. The camaraderie and chemistry, this is why I freakin love FF7 so much. It was perfection.
Then more timeline bullshit reared it's head but I'm going to continue to ignore that until the game refuses to allow me to ignore it further and just bask in the beauty of that main story addition. Kalm in the distance! Tifa teaching Aerith how to hitchhike ! Cloud smiling at the group! Barret angrily humming the chocobo theme. So, so, so good.