SPOILERS INTERmission Chapter 2 Spoiler Discussion

Tetsujin

he/they
AKA
Tets
Outside of preventing Yuffie from entering the bar, the Whispers never get involved in this story. You can come up with plenty of nice little reasons for that, like "they're only concerned about Yuffie not meeting the main party," or "they have limited resources and are focused only on the main party" (they cover the whole city at one point but okay), "they're dead already from a 4th dimensional perspective," etc. But I feel like that's all just side stepping the real point. It is a huge narrative point that these force of nature plot ghosts exist solely to stop things that shouldn't be happening from happening, arguably the main plot of remake part 1, and yet they don't get involved with Yuffie whatsoever. Say what you will about Square's writing tendencies, but I think the simplest explanation is the correct one here: Square does not view the events of this DLC as contradictory to the original events of the game. There's nothing else too it, even if that seems wrong to you.

Would they be wrong though? It isn't contradictory to the original game. It's contradictory to Dirge of Cerberus. And we're not remaking that. :monster:
It actually is consistent if you think about it. The Whispers have intervened with anything relating to the plot events of the original game. DoC is not the original game. :monster:
Maybe the problem is in thinking of them as keepers of the entire series canon when all they care about is retaining the plot to the game at hand - the original FFVII and its remake.
 

Tetsujin

he/they
AKA
Tets
It's said they keep things on track from the planet's birth to its death in chapter 17, isn't it? Like it or not, it's pretty clear they view the compilation as a collective whole, so I don't believe that thinking holds water. It's just adding another qualifier to avoid the problem imo.

And do you know the compilation happened exactly as it did in the original timeline in Remake's future? Do you know that in the Remake timeline as it was fated to be there wasn't a hypothetical version of DoC where Yuffie did call out Nero and remembered Deepground's existence?
The future glimpses we have seen from the Whispers all related to big plot points from the original game. We know Aerith would have died. We know Meteor would've happened. We know Red XIII would've been there 500 years later with his cubs just in the original game.
We know a version of Advent Children probably happened due to the existence of the Whisper bros. But what do we know of the details inbetween? Could they have been a little different in the Remake timeline to begin with? Why do they have to match up exactly to the original compilation? Considering details within the Remake already differ without intervention of the Whispers?

Again, it's more important to keep the symbolic meaning of the Whispers in mind and all of that related to people's expectations to how the Remake is going to go based on the plot of the game it is remaking. Details contradicting Dirge don't factor into that. We were never gonna get there to begin with and we're not gonna get there the same way now either.
 

Odysseus

Ninja Potato
AKA
Ody
And do you know the compilation happened exactly as it did in the original timeline in Remake's future? Do you know that in the Remake timeline as it was fated to be there wasn't a hypothetical version of DoC where Yuffie did call out Nero and remembered Deepground's existence?
I have very little reason to assume otherwise, especially when a scene from Crisis core was recreated perfectly up until the whispers died.

But what do we know of the details inbetween? Could they have been a little different in the Remake timeline to begin with? Why do they have to match up exactly to the original compilation? Considering details within the Remake already differ without intervention of the Whispers?
I don't have an answer to that, but I don't think I need one. Sure they could be different, but they also may not be different at all, and I have no reason to think they would be outside of this hypothetical you are presenting. Superficial details might be different like in the remake, made more "modern," but I have no reason to think the overall events would play out any differently.


Again, it's more important to keep the symbolic meaning of the Whispers in mind and all of that related to people's expectations to how the Remake is going to go based on the plot of the game it is remaking. Details contradicting Dirge don't factor into that. We were never gonna get there to begin with and we're not gonna get there the same way now either.
We may or may not link back to the original compilation at the end of the remake, but that's outside what I'm talking about. What I'm interested in is if square themselves consider the events of the DLC something that wouldn't have happened outside of the remake's plot, and right now I'm landing on "no." Of course the whisper's purpose was to preserve the events of the original campaign; that's all the main story covers (besides that one time the group almost stumbled into deepground before they were shoved out by the whispers.) Yuffie's DLC is the one concerned more directly with the compilation. It's weird to say they're not worrying about dirge much when they went way out of their way to include that stuff in the DLC in the first place. I'd say details concerning dirge completely factor in to a story that significantly features some of it's most major characters.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
But what do we know of the details inbetween? Could they have been a little different in the Remake timeline to begin with? Why do they have to match up exactly to the original compilation? Considering details within the Remake already differ without intervention of the Whispers?

That's a fair and interesting point. The Arbiters of Fate do allow some leeway; details can be changed if the end results are the same. Like Rude pressing the button to drop the plate versus Reno.

So with that in mind, Yuffie knowing about Deepground, or specifically Nero, means nothing in the grand scheme of the future since the events of DC will happen regardless of her knowledge. And she more than likely won't even remember exact specifics anyways.
 

Odysseus

Ninja Potato
AKA
Ody
A part of my initial post that's gotten overlooked here is how I don't really think any of the time stuff Sephiroth is pulling affected Yuffie in the first place. That's what I'm trying to say, these exact events would have happened either way, and Square doesn't consider that a major alteration to the narrative. If they went out of their way to remake Dirge, I'd be curious to see if they changed Yuffie's reactions to things. As it just so happens, they ARE remaking dirge, so I guess we'll see whenever ever crisis comes around.

That's a fair and interesting point. The Arbiters of Fate do allow some leeway; details can be changed if the end results are the same. Like Rude pressing the button to drop the plate versus Reno
This is actually one of the more interesting cases of the butterfly effect in the remake. Since Cloud and Reno fight at the church this time, Reno has more of a grudge with him than he did originally and decides to fight Cloud BEFORE pressing the button. This leads to the whispers having to make the concession of letting Rude do it instead after Reno is incapacitated. The reason I'm hesitant to consider anything in Interlude similar to this situation is because there's no set up, there's no point where things obviously change, everything just proceeds normally.
 
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KindOfBlue

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Blue
But I digress! I must sound pretty delusional if I'm being compared to the Seventh Heaven sign debate, so I'll bow out for now haha.
I’ll once again point out that it’s pretty hard to top “the furniture next to Biggs is arranged to spell the kanji for ‘hope’ meaning that Jessie is definitely alive” so I think you’re good… (the worst part is that Jessie being alive in itself is a pretty tame theory, it’s just the logic used to get there is ridiculous lol)

Beautiful post, cold_spirit!

My main source of emotional investment when it comes to theory crafting for FF7R is the fact that I will forever dislike the existence of the Whispers and all this Destiny-nonsense (and the revival of Zack, even though it's probably temporary), but a part of me is holding onto hope that *at least* by the end of the Remake series that all this nonsense will have MEANT something. That's why I'm invested in the hope of the old post-OG continuity no longer happening and that preferably Sephiroth will be 100% defeated before Meteorfall this time around. "No resurrections this time."

If all FF7R accomplishes is that everything loops back around to old post-OG continuity happening all over again then all the insanity introduced with FF7R Part 1 will have been utterly pointless. It would confirm that the Whispers was just frivolous fluff all along and that Square could have just instead made the FF7 Remake most of us were expecting. That's my opinion and investment and it will continue to be so for years.

Is it unwise of me to be emotionally invested in a specific outcome for FF7R? Yes. My investment in a Peter Jackson-style "Lord of the Rings" movie trilogy take on the FF7 Remake series is a major contributor to why the ending of FF7R Part 1 so utterly destroyed me. It would have been better if I didn't have these emotional investments at all. But I also can't help myself in feeling the way that I do. At best I can take a step away and feel the detachment of distance for a while, but when I return to FF7R all the same opinions and feelings will inevitably return.
I’m a firm believer that most remakes are redundant so it’s interesting to me that you and I are on totally opposite ends on how we responded to the direction the remake took, yet we both also come to the same conclusion of wanting the post-game to not just loop back to what we already know happens after the OG

Like I said before, if anyone starts talking about secret weddings I'm leaving.
My morbid curiosity won’t let me stop wondering what on earth this is a reference to lol

Square does not view the events of this DLC as contradictory to the original events of the game. There's nothing else too it, even if that seems wrong to you.
Either that or they just never intended to for remake’s future to include DC in the first place, the result is still the same I think but that remains to be seen

Everything in this scene is jarring with what we saw post-plate fall. People were in shock right after. But why two days after are the kids like this? Why is one seemingly hurt? Something went wrong in this timeline (may have it merged with the Remake timeline or not) and the devs stressed on it too much for me to be it plate fall-related. You have to remember that the kids really love Aerith to get the feeling nailed down to her fate.
With how many people lived in sector 7, it’ll definitely take a good few days to rescue everybody from the wreckage, without a doubt people will still be injured, traumatized, worried about their loved ones’ safety etc.

Exactly. Again, it's the way it's filmed and put together, in a dramatic fashion. Zack wouldn't be asking "Aerith..." but "what happened?" if they didn't want to stress *her* fate. Just saying.
Zack asking about Aerith still seems pretty reasonable if she really is just traveling to Kalm because even if we know where she is, he doesn’t know what’s happening

I have very little reason to assume otherwise, especially when a scene from Crisis core was recreated perfectly up until the whispers died.
To be fair though even though it’s a shot for shot remake of the CC version of that scene, it’s a scene that originates in the OG…I think it’s fair that even past events are subject to be different than what was established by the Compilation by virtue of just being in a separate continuity altogether

So with that in mind, Yuffie knowing about Deepground, or specifically Nero, means nothing in the grand scheme of the future since the events of DC will happen regardless of her knowledge. And she more than likely won't even remember exact specifics anyways.
Whether the events of DC were ever going to happen is still in the air I think, otherwise it’s pretty easy to explain away stuff like this the same way stuff like the Honeybee Inn being different can be explained with “just because”

As it just so happens, they ARE remaking dirge, so I guess we'll see whenever ever crisis comes around.
I don’t know if we can consider EC’s portrayal of AC and DC as an indication that the remake will still go in that direction, I feel like it’s a convenient way to get people familiar with the OG continuity to help them appreciate how the remake freely plays around with Compilation elements
 

Eerie

Fire and Blood
With how many people lived in sector 7, it’ll definitely take a good few days to rescue everybody from the wreckage, without a doubt people will still be injured, traumatized, worried about their loved ones’ safety etc.

While I agree with your post, the developpers chose to not use assets from sector 7 - I mean, NPC. I know it's not the same team, so while I'm not putting any importance to the people there specially, I think that if they had wanted to use NPCs from sector 7, they would have. It would have had a bigger impact if it was about the plate fall.

Zack asking about Aerith still seems pretty reasonable if she really is just traveling to Kalm because even if we know where she is, he doesn’t know what’s happening

Yes, but this is about the intent conveyed. Nojima put thought in that line. When you write there is intent "why is he saying this that way instead of this way" in such dramatic manner, it is meant to convey this. Is it about Zack discovering that something has happened (the plate fall, and he didn't really pay attention did he, although one can argue he doesn't know when it happened during the past 5 years) or that something has happened specifically to Aerith? Whether it's true or not, because they already have led us on the path of an alternate universe with Stamp (and done so in an Ultimania, no less), they wanted us to ponder about Aerith's fate specifically. Because if Zack is in an alternate universe then Aerith should be there since she can't have met up with Cloud.
 

a_apple 2.0

Pro Adventurer
AKA
a_apple
RE: Zack being in a AU

The reason why I really fucking hope the Devs don't go with a AU sideplot is for one, it eats up so much room with basically no pay off for any of the other characters in it except for Zack, since they are basically just the AU versions of the characters we know and love and secondly if we are suppose to take these character seriously and consider them as equal to the ones in the beagle universe then I really hope nobody dies in there because if we get a AU story where all the main characters from our universe are dead or maybe die later than why was Aerith and Zacks death such a big deal again?
Why should I be more sad over their death then the knowledge that mako poisoned potato Cloud bite the dust since there was no cure for him after he came to Midgar or maybe he drowned in a kiddie pool when Zack wasn't looking I don't know
What I'm trying to say is that if we have a side story where all the characters we like and cherish die off like flies then the game is really working against itself since it tries very hard to bait us with Aerith's death and the question if she will die this time too.

So it's hard for me to believe they ever will go there (or at least I hope they won't), to me this entire thing points towards Zack being brought back to life in the same timeline as the one where the main squad is.
 
why the fuck did Red XIII not have any lines in the ending?!
THEY ARE UPHOLDING COMPILATION TRADITION :awesome:

Anyone noticed that Sector 7 Plate is gone in the new ending when Zack visits the church?

I did not until I watched a YouTuber mention it.
My comment on that
I am so distrustful now of any plate analysis (which why I'll now do plate analysis :wacky:). Since Sector 5 is adjacent to Sector 6, which already has a partially missing plate, then the partially open sky seen in the Zack cutscene *could* be just Sector 6.

Comparing with gameplay screenshots won't work because the skybox in live gameplay is effed, misplacing the upper plates relative to the player's position.

But really, anything is possible at this stage.
 

Torrie

astray ay-ay-ay
I'd like to add to the ongoing debate if the people in the church are from a specific sector -- no, they aren't. They are very much re-used assets as many have suggested. I've just emerged from Remake Chapter 2, and there are sooo many re-used NPCs in Sector 8 alone that if we crafted any theories about that, it would involve duplicating and teleporting people, which would be indescribably ridiculous :monster:
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
Would they be wrong though? It isn't contradictory to the original game. It's contradictory to Dirge of Cerberus. And we're not remaking that. :monster:
It actually is consistent if you think about it. The Whispers have intervened with anything relating to the plot events of the original game. DoC is not the original game. :monster:
Maybe the problem is in thinking of them as keepers of the entire series canon when all they care about is retaining the plot to the game at hand - the original FFVII and its remake.
And do you know the compilation happened exactly as it did in the original timeline in Remake's future? Do you know that in the Remake timeline as it was fated to be there wasn't a hypothetical version of DoC where Yuffie did call out Nero and remembered Deepground's existence?
The future glimpses we have seen from the Whispers all related to big plot points from the original game. We know Aerith would have died. We know Meteor would've happened. We know Red XIII would've been there 500 years later with his cubs just in the original game.
We know a version of Advent Children probably happened due to the existence of the Whisper bros. But what do we know of the details inbetween? Could they have been a little different in the Remake timeline to begin with? Why do they have to match up exactly to the original compilation? Considering details within the Remake already differ without intervention of the Whispers?
How does citing the presence of Whispers from AC (a Compilation title) who are trying to protect their history help your suggestion that the Whispers are only concerned about non-Compilation events? :huh: And why would you isolate their area of concern to only the time period of the original game when VIIR told us outright they busy themselves with preserving history's proper course from the planet's birth to its death?
 
And why would you isolate their area of concern to only the time period of the original game when VIIR told us outright they busy themselves with preserving history's proper course from the planet's birth to its death?
The fault may be mine because I accidentally spread misinformation in this post where I suggested the Whispers might only care for one time period in particular. I had forgotten that 7R states the Whispers act through the entire lifetime of the planet. If anyone can link to the chapter and quote it'd be much appreciated so that I don't have to go through a ton of footage.

Though I will hold that the Whispers may still have a set of guidelines and care about some time periods (and particularities of how events unfold) more than others, but that is for future lore to reveal, deny or omit.
 

Fiz

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Eh?
Oh geez, I definitely avoided that debate. For me, what was being suggested didn't match the purpose of the scene. In the case of the Seventh Heaven sign, that scene was meant to show the Sector 7 survivors rebuilding their lives, giving their story closure. Not a great place to drop a timeline hint in my opinion. The Stamp chip bag and Zack's reaction to Aerith's absence though, those two receive special camera treatment in scenes that are new and surprising. That begs for analysis in my opinion.

But I digress! I must sound pretty delusional if I'm being compared to the Seventh Heaven sign debate, so I'll bow out for now haha.



Theory crafting can be fun, but I noticed there's a bit of negativity towards it with Remake. I think the two main issues are that we don't have enough info and that people don't want to be wrong.

Yes, we don't have enough info, but that's the point. Instead of focusing on that, I like to acknowledge the unique opportunity we have here. We get to be creative and piece together an explanation from our vast pre-existing knowledge, perhaps leading to valuable insights along the way.

A lot of people have decided to wait for the answers to become available before deciding if they like Remake's new direction. I think... those people won't like the new direction no matter what the answers are. With that mentality, a person would be approaching every new development with cynicism, and that's going to make any enjoyment an uphill battle.

We are currently in the most unique era with this new series. Someday we'll have the answers and we'll have them for a lot longer than when we didn't. I would say it's better to take advantage of the now than to let it pass us by.

But what if our theories turn out to be wrong? It's okay to be wrong. I think a person should always keep an open mind. I've been wrong. What's fun is letting the person I most disagreed with know that they were right. Then we got to share in the excitement.

Theory crafting can be engaging and collaborative. I've been vocal before that it's a great for the community. I still think that! And of course it's cool to just not like Remake's new direction at all. Just wanted to share my perspective is all.

Agreed. Theory crafting is taking punts, and to a point, trying to get into the writers heads. No matter how confident any of us are in any particular theory, that’s always going to come with risks of getting it totally wrong... because none of us are in the writers heads.

But, theory crafting is part of the appeal and fun with any mystery. We win some and we lose some. I expect most theories, including my own, will end up having bits spot on and bits way off. But that doesn’t mean it isn’t worthwhile to try.

If anyone gets toxic when someone is wrong, or if they are wrong themselves, then that’s their problem.
 

Tetsujin

he/they
AKA
Tets
How does citing the presence of Whispers from AC (a Compilation title) who are trying to protect their history help your suggestion that the Whispers are only concerned about non-Compilation events? :huh: And why would you isolate their area of concern to only the time period of the original game when VIIR told us outright they busy themselves with preserving history's proper course from the planet's birth to its death?

Because I'm not really talking about their literal in-universe function.

My point is that the creators wanted to play with your expectations and then make a point about stuff being different. And I think it is a mistake to rigidly see things from this in-universe perspective of "fate has changed after defeating the Whispers at the end" and equating it to "if the creators don't have the Whispers intervene, it must fit with in with previous Compilation canon and/or not being seen as a contradiction to that"

I think they absolutely wilfully contradicted Dirge here specifically because they're not setting up Dirge, they're already setting up more Remake stuff.
Because I don't think they approach it from the rigid perspective of "we can only remix and switch things up post-Arbiter defeat", they'll do it wherever they please in the timeline to tell the new story of FFVII that they have in mind.
Defeating the Arbiter was just the symbolic death of rigid adherence to old canon but we'll probably see it pop up whenever, even in events preceding that moment, like is currently the case with Yuffie fighting Nero.

Which is why, switching back to how one might want to make sense of it from an in-universe pedantic nerd perspective it's probably best to adopt my stance of just seeing it as a different timeline altogether even before the Arbiter defeat, one that was like the Compilation...but differs in details such as these.

tl;dr You'd best start believing in unknown journeys, Miss Yuffie. Yer in one!
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
It'll be interesting to see just how committed the writers are to "making things different" because while they do set up and give themselves leeway to make a point of "stuff being different," there exist multiple instances of Compilation off FFVII plot points being set up and established so those same events happen in the future, even with their previous context.

A perfect example is the experiment with Weiss and the digitization of one's consciousness. Hojo is there overseeing the experiment, and he is fascinated at how one can "transcend the flesh" due to the performance of Weiss in combat. The first seeds have now been planted which establish Hojo's scheme in Dirge of Cerberus to digitize his consciousness as a safeguard. Then he will hijack a much stronger body so that he can live forever and emulate his son. And we know who's body that will be.

There are other instances of this type of future contextualizing happening in the Remake, but this one in Intergrade is the most direct, in-your-face example. So if anything, there are mixed messages being conveyed. Between that and their own commentary via interviews, I don't know if the writers are that "all-in" on doing things completely different here. I suppose we'll see. :monster:
 

KindOfBlue

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Blue
While I agree with your post, the developpers chose to not use assets from sector 7 - I mean, NPC. I know it's not the same team, so while I'm not putting any importance to the people there specially, I think that if they had wanted to use NPCs from sector 7, they would have. It would have had a bigger impact if it was about the plate fall.
I really wouldn’t think that much about the assets being used when it comes to theorycrafting, overthinking the skyboxes is already exhausting enough

Yes, but this is about the intent conveyed. Nojima put thought in that line. When you write there is intent "why is he saying this that way instead of this way" in such dramatic manner, it is meant to convey this. Is it about Zack discovering that something has happened (the plate fall, and he didn't really pay attention did he, although one can argue he doesn't know when it happened during the past 5 years) or that something has happened specifically to Aerith? Whether it's true or not, because they already have led us on the path of an alternate universe with Stamp (and done so in an Ultimania, no less), they wanted us to ponder about Aerith's fate specifically. Because if Zack is in an alternate universe then Aerith should be there since she can't have met up with Cloud.
As is always the case with the “developer’s intent” argument, unless the developer specifically expresses said intent, it’s far too easy to project one’s own interpretation into a scene and get it completely wrong so unless the ultimania tells us we’re meant to believe that Aerith might be dead in Zack’s time, I’ll take that idea with about as much of a grain of salt as any other idea proposed here

A perfect example is the experiment with Weiss and the digitization of one's consciousness. Hojo is there overseeing the experiment, and he is fascinated at how one can "transcend the flesh" due to the performance of Weiss in combat. The first seeds have now been planted which establish Hojo's scheme in Dirge of Cerberus to digitize his consciousness as a safeguard. Then he will hijack a much stronger body so that he can live forever and emulate his son. And we know who's body that will be.
They were pretty open about incoporating Compilation elements, so I just saw it as them using old material to explain why we can fight him in VR. If not to lead into DC directly, I think they could also just be “remixing” DC’s plot to fit the timeframe of the OG. On one hand, it could mean DC is only canon to the OG, but on the other hand, I’d say it’s a pretty good opportunity to tell a new story involving Deepground.
 

Obsidian Fire

Ahk Morn!
AKA
The Engineer
Wess is an interesting example. Because the devil is in the details. And enough details are missing from the set-up of Hojo's plan in DoC that make me think it won't be happening in Remake the same way for the same reasons.

Namely, Hojo didn't get interested in taking over... anyone really... until he saw Vincent who could transform into Chaos, which proved Lucrecia's theories about Omega right. This lead to him copying Fragments of himself onto the Network as he was dying... where they'd stay for the next three years...

Weiss would later SND into the Network in order to figure out a cure or the virus the Restrictors were using to kill him... right at the same time the WRO turned the Network on again. Which lead to Hojo's Fragments in the Network taking Weiss over because he was the perfect host for Omega.

In Intergrade... a lot of the needed steps for this to happen are missing. Hojo hasn't seen Vincent transforming into Chaos and doesn't know Omega is an option yet (heck, Hojo might not have been infected with Jenova's desire to travel the stars yet!). Weiss still hasn't taken over Deepground yet and has yet to be in danger of the virus at all. What was done with him to make the VR copy was Weiss doing an SND on the Network.

So a reference to "Hojo takes over Weiss" is sort-of there in the VR room. It looks like it's Hojo making use of Weiss' data to guage how good Cloud and Co. are. But how it's done is far enough removed from the circumstances of DoC's plot that I'm not sure DoC's plot will happen as a result of it.
 
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