SPOILERS INTERmission Chapter 2 Spoiler Discussion

[Makoeyes987]

So I'm really annoyed at the fact that you can't view all of the special cutscenes from unlocking or beating Weiss after getting them the first time.

I wanted to take photos of those scenes and I foolishly thought they'd play again. But they don't.

Even importing a new save file from the PS4 version of the game doesn't trigger them all again. At most you'll trigger the Weiss opening battle scene again and presumably the ending one however.... That means I'd have to beat him with my lower level file again all to just see the Hojo surprise.

Really don't know why they don't just play it again. That really sucks.

 

[Clement Rage]

Sorry for disappearing in the middle of the conversation, I hit my 'what's the point of it all' threshold and took some time away from the forums.

The things I was talking about are not more inconsequential than any of the timeline arguments that preceded it dealing with potato chip bags and wilting flowers. The reason people are telling me it's nothing to get concerned about is that they personally don't care about Dirge canon. Which is fine, but stop telling me I shouldn't care about it, its hurtful. None of the other discussion was any better, people just disapprove of me talking about irrelevant things I care about instead of irrelevant things they care about.

How many groupings of enemy does Shin-Ra have that are "something distinct and notable"? A lot.

Yes, but when the Shocktroopers or the Magitroopers show up, Yuffie doesn't feel the need to ask who they are, because she knows they're just another branch of Shinra. So she noticed something significantly different in the DG soldiers, and felt the need to ask who they were.

[/quote]
But I'm doing the opposite of that? I'm saying she would have told someone -- when it became relevant as these familiar uniforms showed up shortly prior to Dirge.

Up until then, what specifically useful details would she know to tell? "Shin-Ra sure has a lot of dark secrets/experiments/combat operatives"? Yeah, no kidding. Thanks for the hot tip, girl, but we had kinda noticed over the course of All The Things trying to kill us. [/quote]

"There is a specifically very dangerous scary guy that shoots swirly black stuff in the basement of Shinra HQ, when I last saw him he was alive and in the basement of Shinra HQ. There's also a distinct unit of people that aren't SOLDIER but are enhanced like them, also in the basement of the Shinra building. Don't go down there, or if you do go armed for bear. Incidentally, Shalua, since you are specifically looking for your lost sister who was taken away to be a Shinra experiment, you might want to know that Shinra were keeping experiments in the basement, and as I work for the WRO intelligence dept, here is everything I know about Shinra secrets as a matter of course.'

The remake is a new timeline that may not follow the Compilation, sure. But we have consistently seen the Whispers act to preserve the old timeline, we know they're active in the DLC because they keep Yuffie out of 7th Heaven, and something they specifically do in the main game is kick the cast out of Deepground before they know too much.

For that matter -- and this is a question for @Clement Rage most of all -- why does Yuffie randomly decide that her former Shin-Ra executive friend, Reeve, definitely doesn't know about the security goons in the glowy suits she ran into or their Lovecraftian bondage buddy? Why does she feel the need to tell him about this when he doesn't ask her specifically if she suspects there's a secret army in an enormous secret underground facility headed up by a secret cadre of extra special supersoldiers?

And for that matter, seeing as Reeve at least knew that Shin-Ra had a program called "Deepground" -- the details of which he was told was on a need-to-know basis -- why didn't he investigate the matter? Unless he didn't believe there was anything left to investigate after the world, Midgar in particular, got wrecked? Or maybe he did, yet there was nothing to find?

I'd always assumed that, but it's actually not clear in the dialogue if the person telling him about the project was in his Shinra days or a WRO researcher who went through Scarlet's files.

There's a constant tone of shock and surprise through early Dirge. First thing Reeve asks in Kalm is 'who were those soldiers who just left', and when Vince mentions Azul's he reacts with "Azul the Cerulean Of the Tsviets? But that would mean-" before being interrupted.

He has heard Azul's name before, but that could very well be the moment he realises that he's dealing with Deepground, because
Azul=Tsviet, Tsviet= leader of Deepground, Azul directing attack of mystery soldiers, mystery soldiers=Deepground.

Even though he has seen Scarlet's file, he admits that DG are 'nothing like he expected'

Does "taking an interest" have to amount to trying to strong-arm the media at gunpoint or dictate what a group of civilian volunteers is doing? Does a former Shin-Ra executive with noble intentions really want that kind of publicity?

Well, he already was canonically suppressing the media story about the disappearances.

Actually, watching the scene again, the reporter does mention that they have recently uncovered information about rumours of experiments in the basement of Shinra HQ. Coincidence, or is that the same file Reeve was talking about discovering recently? (The other possibility is that Hojo is sending media organisations spam emails.)

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I accept that it's canon Reeve knew nothing about Deepground. Nevertheless, it's an absurd canon. It strains credulity to breaking point. Just think of the amount of electricity and mako Deepground and those underground labs must have consumed. How could the Director in charge of Midgar's mako reactors, the man responsible for Midgar, know nothing? Structurally those labs and Deepground are the foundation of the entire city. Again, how could he not know? Their existence would need to be considered in every engineering project anywhere in Midgar.

If Reeve didn't know, it's further proof that he was either utterly incompetent at his job (see "Underplate 4: failure to maintain") or he was a Mayor Domino sort of a Director of Urban Development, and there was a shadow Urb Dev director somewhere doing the real work.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Like Shinra would really keep track of their own consumption and not use it freely for whatever

They have free reign to use as much energy as they please, just like they have free reign to cut the power of the populace, control the populace, experiment on the populace, experiment on their own employees and summarily execute the populace.

Look how they treated Reeve, a fellow executive member of the Shinra Company, in Chapter 16. You'd have thought he was a fresh intern and not the head of Urban Development, a co-equal member of executive staff. Clearly the corporation and President Shinra himself don't take him seriously at all. So why would he know about Deepground? It's a "need to know" secret experimental army loyal only to Shinra.

A man who plans cities, and tries to make people comfortable doesn't need to know jack about the army that's made up of unwilling citizens of the city he's supposed to take care of.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I think you're missing my point. He may not know what's down there, but he ought to be aware that something which sucks up a huge amount of power is down there. And he'd have to be phenomenally dense not to suspect that it's something extremely sinister, especially if his fellow Directors have kept it a secret.

There has to be a limit on how much power those reactors can generate. We know there is, because the Sister Ray drained the grid. If Reeve doesn't have at least a ball park figure for the output capacity of his generators, then he's crap at his job. (and given the mess Midgar's in, he does seem to be rather crap at his job, always planning new projects, like the expressway, rather than properly maintaining what they already have. Nice guy, but still crap at his job). If he doesn't have some idea of where the power is going, of peak demand times, and so on, then again he's crap at his job.

More than one electrical engineer in the chain of command will know that electricity is being drained away to some black hole of a destination in ENORMOUS quantities. For Reeve to be unaware, we have to assume that none of his staff reported this to him, and if they did, he thought it was too trivial to investigate. Is that likely? His staff seem to like, respect, and trust him. Plus, they all live in Midgar. An anomaly like an unexplained huge power drain could prove a threat to their families. What if the cause is some hostile group, like Avalanche?

Like, how can they even build and operate a facility of Deepground's magnitude without rumours getting out, at the very least? How many people would be have to be involved in a project that size? The sheer number of labourers you'd need would be enormous, and like I said, the fact that the ground beneath Midgar is honeycombed with research labs and the holding pens of a huge secret arm creates issues for the stability of Midgar's structure that Reeve would absolutely need to know about.

I'm not saying it's not canon. I'm saying it's really stupid, poorly thought out canon and careless worldbuilding, and it all stemmed from wanting to make Reeve not only a major character but also Mr Nice Guy in DoC.

This entire problem could have been avoided if they'd located Deepground somewhere else, rather than directly beneath Midgar.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Deepground headquarters lies below Sector 0. It shares its power source with Mako Reactor 0, the largest core Mako Reactor that lies at the center of Midgar and below the surface. Deepground has existed since near the beginning of Midgar, constructed by Shinra, for Shinra SOLDIERs needing medical treatment and training, and then it merged into the Scientific Department to be a test site for numerous experiments meant to enhance and create super soldiers. It'd merely require the same number of workers, laborers and construction efforts that was used to create the giant two tiered floating city. Midgar is already an impossibility in terms of real world architectural design, I mean that's a point of a Cyber Punk dystopian fantasy city. Shinra having a secret army integrated into their corporate power and hidden as a top secret military, is no different than SOLDIER. They're just the SOLDIERs that are especially more gruesome and dangerous. And its power consumption would be directly tied to the consumption of everything associated with Sector 0, which is the entirety of the Shinra Company, its related facilities and departments. Specifically the Science Department.

Reeve's job isn't to monitor the power consumption levels of the company in that sector. It's not anywhere close to his job, and why would he add that level of responsibility to it when he has his hands full with urban planning for regular people? Nevermind the implications of him being nosey and questioning what the power consumption levels are of the entire company belonging to the President. It'd be none of his business, he just needs to make fancy houses and keep the citizenry happy.

The Scientific Research Department is given complete free reign to experiment and research anything they want, whenever they want for the sake of the company. Hojo has an entire section of the building for himself, The Drum. All devoted to Jenova experimentation which sucks up constant levels of mako to feed to Jenova. Hojo is the executive head of that entire Scientific Research division, and do you really think he'd answer Reeve's questions about what exactly they're doing to need that much mako energy?

Shinra blows up towns and experiments on civilians on the daily. You really think Reeve would have been able to figure out Deepground when the Science Department regularly kept their living body human experiments a secret from him and everyone else in the company not cleared for such info, as well?

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Deepground has existed since near the beginning of Midgar, constructed by Shinra, for Shinra SOLDIERs needing medical treatment and training, and then it merged into the Scientific Department to be a test site for numerous experiments meant to enhance and create super soldiers.

So a whole bunch of people already know the facility is there. And now it's TOP SECRET, which means it's probably full of nasty Shinra experiments. I'm not saying they should know it's Deepground specifically. But many people, including Reeve, should know something pretty unpleasant is down there. They should have expected something like Deepground, something bad.

It's not his job to monitor energy consumption. But it IS someone's job to monitor energy consumption, probably quite a lot of someones' jobs, and it is also their job to report to him any discrepancies between predicted consumption based on the known requirements of the city and its population, and actual consumption, because that's a serious anomaly which indicates a major problem somewhere.

Reeve may not know the details of what goes on in Hojo's labs and probably doesn't want to know, but you can be sure he has an idea of their general purpose. He knows they're experimenting on human beings. How could he not know? Everyone knows how SOLDIERS are made. And he sits on the Board meetings: he's sitting there listening to Hojo talking about experimenting on Aerith, with a look of weary yet helpless disgust on his face.

So either Reeve already knows a nasty facility is located under the central pillar, in which case why is he allowing a TV news crew to go in there? Why didn't he deal with it asap? Or he should be aware something is not right due to the discrepancies in energy consumption figures. Why is this supposedly brilliant engineer so slow at putting two and two together? The level of ignorance, lack of curiosity, incompetence and sheer dumbness you're proposing for him doesn't fit with the rest of his characterisation. Yes, maybe before he got involved with Avalanche he was so practised in turning the blind eye that he didn't see a thing - but afterwards?

As I said before, I know it's canon. But it's unconvincing, and that irritates me. Fantasy worlds don't have to be logically incoherent.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Just because people built Deepground doesn't mean they know what it's for. That's how CIA and MI6 black sites work in real life. A construction worker doesn't just know what they're specifically building or what it's for, they just build and fulfill a contract. And considering urban legends were whispered about the existence of a research facility existing beneath Midgar, something got out. But the full extent of the truth remained unknown to most.

Reeve, Palmer, and everyone else not directly involved with Shinra's top secret projects don't have access to everything the company does. Again why would they? That certainly wasn't part of the OG, either. Do you really believe Reeve knows about what exactly went down in Nibelheim or the beginnings of SOLDIER, the Jenova Project and its connection? The original game even had the actual nature of Jenova cells and their purpose as top secret, along with what actually was housed in the Nibelheim Reactor. Not even the Turks fully knew everything because Hojo and the Science Department are completely free to do as they wish. Shinra let's that department do whatever weird science they want with Mako as long as it's of benefit to them.

And who said Reeve was an engineer? He's an architect and an executive who manages the affairs of housing, development and general welfare of the populace. Mako reactor oversight isn't his business as an "Urban Developer." Public Security are in charge of monitoring the closely guarded assets that are Mako Reactors as shown by their direct monitoring of all every Shinra Reactor and the facility answering straight to Heidegger. It's his department that's charged with overseeing Midgar and protecting it as Public Security, including all the Reactors. Which they use to even build weaponry within them.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I am specifically saying Reeve does not know exactly what happened. However, he certainly knows something happened and must have some general idea of its very dangerous nature. Regardless of whether he is an engineer by training (which it seems he must be, to design and build machines like Cait Sith) or whether he is an architect, his job remains the same. We can argue till the cows come home about which department is responsible for monitoring and controlling the power output of the mako reactors, but he certainly wasn't not-involved or not au courant with that information:

Reeve: None of that matters! The reactor's output is increasing all by itself!

Scarlet: Ww, wait a minute. That's not wise! It must cool for 3 hours or it won't work. Reeve, shut off the machine!

Reeve: We can't do that! It's inoperable!

He pulls out his cell phone.

Someone has switched the machine over to mainframe operation! We can't operate it from here.
What about the mainframe? Who!?

He turns to Heidegger.

Hey, call the mainframe!

Heidegger: Huh? Why are you giving orders?

Reeve: I don't give a damn about the details!!

My main point is this: given the nature of his job, Reeve must have known that something TOP SECRET was happening in the bowels of Midgar. Something that required huge amounts of power. In fact, he says he did know:
Reeve: As for me, I was told the information was on a need to know basis.
What did he think the information being kept from him referred to? The information on them came from Scarlet's file.
Reeve: All the intel we currently have on Deepground was only discovered recently when we came across some of Scarlet's old files.

That he didn't know precisely what it was is beside the point. He must have known it wasn't something good. This being the case, it was remiss of him of him not to deal with the problem earlier. To leave it for three years and then send a TV camera crew and 38 members of an "investigation team" to deal with it was criminally negligent.

Anchorman: Three weeks ago our crew left for Midgar.
Anchorwoman: However, the group's whereabouts still remain unknown. What really happened down there?
Anchorman: Tonight, for the first time, we bring you the final transmission received...
[Footage appears on the television screen; beneath it is the text "A television crew and 38 members of an investigation team are believed missing". The Anchorman and woman describe how, for the past three years, a door had remained sealed but was now being opened; a door leading to an area beneath the Shinra building, another of the company's secrets revealed recently. They note that there is evidence that "thousands of people had once been transported here"]

When Heidegger is this cavalier with people's lives, he is rightly condemned for it.

 

[Odysseus]

I'm still not sure that TV crew was WRO.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I am specifically saying Reeve does not know exactly what happened. However, he certainly knows something happened and must have some general idea of its very dangerous nature. Regardless of whether he is an engineer by training (which it seems he must be, to design and build machines like Cait Sith) or whether he is an architect, his job remains the same. We can argue till the cows come home about which department is responsible for monitoring and controlling the power output of the mako reactors, but he certainly wasn't not-involved or not au courant with that information:




My main point is this: given the nature of his job, Reeve must have known that something TOP SECRET was happening in the bowels of Midgar. Something that required huge amounts of power. In fact, he says he did know:
Reeve: As for me, I was told the information was on a need to know basis.
What did he think the information being kept from him referred to? The information on them came from Scarlet's file.
Reeve: All the intel we currently have on Deepground was only discovered recently when we came across some of Scarlet's old files.

That he didn't know precisely what it was is beside the point. He must have known it wasn't something good. This being the case, it was remiss of him of him not to deal with the problem earlier. To leave it for three years and then send a TV camera crew and 38 members of an "investigation team" to deal with it was criminally negligent.



When Heidegger is this cavalier with people's lives, he is rightly condemned for it.

But Reeve isn't in the loop. You're saying "he should know" but how would he know? You might as well be saying Palmer, Rufus, or Tseng should have known something and tried to intervene despite the fact that they had no responsibility or awareness of the situation too. Rufus was the President of the company. Tseng was head of Investigations. Yet they somehow neglected to find out what the "top secret" thing was in Midgar's underground. Yeah, Reeve had "suspicions" that Shinra did dirty, terrible things. And that's shown quite clearly in Chapter 16 and in the lead up to the plate collapse of Sector 7. He's witnessed Shinra doing terrible, awful things to the people.

However, that doesn't mean he's gonna magically stumble upon every dark secret they've done behind his back. You're expecting him to take an active role in fishing out secrets that are classified and outside his purview, when even the new president of of Shinra itself, was kept out of the loop of Deepground's existence. How are you going to look for something you don't know exists and is beyond your awareness? And Reeve was acting as a double agent and trying to help save the world against Sephiroth. He at least has an excuse for doing double duty as a spy and reverse-spy. Rufus was the President, and Tseng was running the Turks. They didn't find anything out either.

Reeve's a glorified urban planner and architect. He isn't an engineering wunderkind specialist with training or knowledge of mako reactor construction or energy management. He knew about the situation with the mako reactor overload because he's being told that information. In that very scene you quote, he's trying to tell Heidegger, head of Public Security, to get a handle on it. Why? Because that's Heidegger's responsibility and his men control that aspect of Midgar.

And yeah, that was a TV crew. That wasn't WRO. Why would they send a news crew to investigate that? It was a TV show. The WRO was already investigating when Deepground kidnapped folks from Junon to sacrifice them to Omega.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Palmer's a known idiot. We don't expect him to exhibit any powers of deduction or signs of intelligence.

Rufus was excluded from Board meetings afaik.

Tseng isn't in charge of running the city. It's also not his job to investigate Shinra; it's his job to investigate the enemies of Shinra. He's kept out of the loop because he's suspected of being "in bed" with Rufus (if I may indulge in the use of that phrase, metaphorically speaking). Veld ought to know, though; it would be insane if he didn't, given how long the Deepground project has existed. So there's another bit of a plot hole. I guess the people who made BC weren't talking to the people who made DoC.

Reeve is in charge of the whole city. That's why he ought to know. Deepground isn't some little pet project of Hojo's tucked away in the corner somewhere. It's huge. And Reeve doesn't have to have specialised knowledge. He's the head urban honcho, he's the guy the specialists report to.

I have already explained why, in his position as Director of Urban Development, he ought to have been in possession of enough information to put two and two together and figure out that in the labyrinth under Midgar lurked a potential danger that might pose a major problem. That is, he should have suspected that something existed, and therefore that something, though ill-defined, should not have been outside his awareness. If nothing else, he ought to have told Rufus (who's underwrtiting the WRO) and Tseng that there was something nasty in the woodshed, so that the Turks could have investigated. They would all have been killed, but it would still have been more sensible than letting a TV crew go investigate.

I don't know how many times I have to say that I wouldn't have expected Reeve to know that Deepground specifically was down there. Only that in any coherent world building scenario, he would have been aware that something highly suspect was going on there down.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I mean, if you expect Reeve to have known for proper world building purposes, why wouldn't Rufus? He had board meetings and access to Scarlet, Heidegger and Hojo. The three executives who answered directly under him and orchestrated Deepground. And in the end, he's the President of the entire corporation, so if Rufus wanted to find out something, he could gain access to it. His privileges and clearance are absolute. It'd be his business to know every single avenue of research and development. Rufus somehow had enough sense to ask Hojo about what the Jenova Project was, however he didn't seem to press it when Hojo conveniently stated it only existed in his head.

If Reeve should be expected to simply notice something is up based on him simply being in charge of the city of Midgar and carrying the responsibility of awareness of everything that exists around it, Rufus carries that same responsibility as head of the whole corporation. It was happening under his watch and they're his private army.

 

[Clement Rage]

It's time we come to terms with the fact that none of FF7's worldbuilding has ever made any sense.

It's not actually clear whether Reeve knew something was down there or not. He says 'I was told', but whether that was at a board meeting in his Shinra days or a WRO tech who gave him a report on Scarlet's files three weeks before Dirge is not specified.

If I remember correctly, Rufus still had full access to all Shinra info, it's how he got them in to Veld's location. He may or may not have known, it's never specified beyond Reeve's uninformed speculations.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

- Let's break down some unnecessary confusion here, starting with Reeve's credentials:

Dude is almost certainly an engineer given his position alone. I actually work in local government, and know or know of many public works/utilities directors in multiple municipalities. They're all engineers. I'm pretty sure you're not even eligible for the position in any municipality of appreciable size without that background.

Also, his creation and operation of Cait Sith, his ruminations on how to refine its operations, etc. peg him as obviously having engineering skills.

- Secondly, Deepground's electrical consumption:

The facility runs off Reactor 0, housed within Deepground itself. Unlike the eight reactors on the perimeter of Midgar, there's no reason to think its energy consumption is under the purview of Reeve or any of his subordinates. He had apparently already been told what went on down there was need-to-know and that he didn't need to know.

Given that the four SODLIERs who run the site answer directly to President Shinra himself, who is also an engineer, if anyone gets that report, it's him. Assuming anyone cares to make a report for that in the first place, given what the place exists for.

- Other things:

It's not actually clear whether Reeve knew something was down there or not. He says 'I was told', but whether that was at a board meeting in his Shinra days or a WRO tech who gave him a report on Scarlet's files three weeks before Dirge is not specified.

Reeve's specifically talking about which executives knew what in ye pre-Meteor days. When he gets to himself, he says "As for me" -- and that's when we get the explanation "I was told the information was on a need to know basis."

And since he also says Deepground is beyond what he expected, that implies he knew enough to think he could form an expectation.

A WRO tech reading a file fits neither the context of expressing "need to know basis" nor the context of this obviously being data Reeve would want to see for himself. And again, there's the context of Reeve talking about the subject to Vincent in terms of what the various executives knew before Meteor.

Tseng isn't in charge of running the city. It's also not his job to investigate Shinra; it's his job to investigate the enemies of Shinra. He's kept out of the loop because he's suspected of being "in bed" with Rufus (if I may indulge in the use of that phrase, metaphorically speaking).



...



If nothing else, he [Reeve] ought to have told Rufus (who's underwrtiting the WRO) and Tseng that there was something nasty in the woodshed, so that the Turks could have investigated. They would all have been killed, but it would still have been more sensible than letting a TV crew go investigate.

Given the urgency with which they were moving, the TV crew almost certainly didn't think they were supposed to be there. Furthermore, in light of Reeve keeping information from them, there's even less reason to believe he approved this.

As for Rufus and the Turks, seeing as they were on a mission to clean up the mistakes of Rufus's father, they would have probably investigated this matter -- and given that they were willing to go to the literal ends of the planet in investigating Jenova, both they and the WRO probably did investigate Midgar's wreckage. But as we know: the Deepground facility was inescapable (and therefore inaccessible) for more than two years.

How much time and other resources were either Rufus's new Shin-Ra or the WRO supposed to dedicate to searching for a facility they had no reason to suspect existed on the scale at which Deepground had actually been constructed and staffed? A facility that was buried, probably destroyed, and now probably staffed by skeletons if anyone was even still there at all?

All while trying to get a new infrastructure in place to make life manageable for countless displaced, injured, hungry, sick, dying, etc. people in the aftermath of complete societal collapse while a literally malevolent disease is making its way across the globe and there's a race against time to prevent Sephiroth or Jenova's return?

Really, how much should this wild goose chase have occupied them?

 

[Clement Rage]

Ha, yes, they're moving so urgently they waited for the cameras to be set up before levering open the door so they could get the dramatic shot timed to coincide with the newscaster monologue.

The WRO and the news station both recently uncovered new information about DG. Quite a coincidence, isn't it?

Shalua would absolutely put every effort into hunting down anywhere her sister might be, and she's Reeve's right hand. It's actually possible that she sent the team to Midgar, especially if the name 'Shelke' was in Scarlet's files. Despite the fact that it's quite a small team they were able to break in, so it can't be that difficult to get into from the outside at least.

Reeve also says 'I guess I wasn't on their list.' He's not sure.

So, two possible scenarios:

1. Reeve was told there was something in the basement called Deepground he should stay away from in his Shinra days. Plausible. But, you would expect him to investigate sooner.

2. A WRO researcher finds Scarlet's file, and gives Reeve a report on it. Said file is obviously incomplete or damaged, as Reeve is repeatedly surprised by DGs capabilities, doesn't recognise the uniforms, and doesn't know Tsviet powers or what they look like. A WRO tech is still analysing those files as late as on the bridge of the Shera. So Reeve forms expectations from these garbled files, which are not borne out by the reality when h encounters them. It at least has a partial list of Tsviet names, enough to know Azul's title.

The WRO is baffled by the disappearances. All their investigation finds is rumours of screams from Midgar. Meanwhile Yuffie is aware of a monster man that has the power to disappear people.

Really, how much should this wild goose chase have occupied them?

Vincent was locked in that coffin for 25 years. There are live monsters inside the sealed stone of the Temple of the Ancients. They opened a random safe in a derelict bulding and Lost Number jumped out and attacked them. The cave of the Gi is full of monsters, undead or otherwise. The derelict train graveyard is filled with murderous ghosts. Sephiroth grew a body that was sealed in a crystal for five years. The Weapons were sealed away for millenia dormant. Jenova was still alive after 2000 years. Crystal Lucrecia.
There are a hell of a lot of things in this world that can survive a long, long time in stasis, especially when mako is involved.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Dude is almost certainly an engineer given his position alone. I actually work in local government, and know or know of many public works/utilities directors in multiple municipalities. They're all engineers. I'm pretty sure you're not even eligible for the position in any municipality of appreciable size without that background.

Also, his creation and operation of Cait Sith, his ruminations on how to refine its operations, etc. peg him as obviously having engineering skills.

You know, I never thought of it like that. I guess that makes sense. I thought of him more like a toy maker and computer programmer, but I see where you're coming from. Cid was the one that I took as the de facto engineer of the group.

Ha, yes, they're moving so urgently they waited for the cameras to be set up before levering open the door so they could get the dramatic shot timed to coincide with the newscaster monologue.

The WRO and the news station both recently uncovered new information about DG. Quite a coincidence, isn't it?

Dude, it was a sensationalized newscast. The network broadcasting it was named TNN.

It was akin to the 1986 episode of Geraldo where he brought in an investigative team and demolition experts to open Al Capone's vault on live television. Except in this case, there was actually something down there in the bowels of Midgar that were not meant to be breached except by Shinra personnel. Coincidence? More like just journalism and investigation into rumors of a top secret research facility lying below the undercity of Midgar.

Shalua would absolutely put every effort into hunting down anywhere her sister might be, and she's Reeve's right hand. It's actually possible that she sent the team to Midgar, especially if the name 'Shelke' was in Scarlet's files. Despite the fact that it's quite a small team they were able to break in, so it can't be that difficult to get into from the outside at least.

Unless Shalua is a producer or executive at TNN News, I highly doubt that.

The WRO is baffled by the disappearances. All their investigation finds is rumours of screams from Midgar. Meanwhile Yuffie is aware of a monster man that has the power to disappear people.

How does she know he can "disappear people?" All she saw was a Shinra supersoldier in black gear use a strange substance to choke, kill and seemingly evaporate some other armed soldiers and scientists, all before he killed Sonon. She doesn't even know his name, rank or specific powers. He was a masked assailant in black who was extremely powerful and tried to kill them before they escaped.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

@Clement Rage
I initially posted this in another thread, where I was breaking my vow to never agree with you. So, to get back on track ...

I decided we need whatever Reeve says in Dirge's Japanese script to settle the matter of what he said concerning what he knew of Deepground and when. Should have done this from the start.

In Japanese, he says 都市計画責任者だった私はディープグラウンド、触れるべからずとして、その存在のみ、聞かされていました -- "As the person in charge of city planning, I was told only that Deepground existed, and to leave it alone."

 

[Clement Rage]

Wow, a translation of the Japanese script was actually helpful for once.

Dude, it was a sensationalized newscast. The network broadcasting it was named TNN.

It was akin to the 1986 episode of Geraldo where he brought in an investigative team and demolition experts to open Al Capone's vault on live television. Except in this case, there was actually something down there in the bowels of Midgar that were not meant to be breached except by Shinra personnel. Coincidence? More like just journalism and investigation into rumors of a top secret research facility lying below the undercity of Midgar.

Does TNN mean something? I think we have insufficient evidence to decide who they were tied to. Both the TV crew and the WRO uncover previously unknown information on DG 'recently' Either they have links to each other, or Hojo is sending out info to be found.

The WRO have established ties to the media enough to bury the Junon disappearances. It's entirely plausible that the investigation had ties to the WRO. Shalua is wholly dedicated to hunting down Shelke, and would stop at nothing to do so.

How does she know he can "disappear people?

Because she sees him disappear people. It's right there in the the DLC.

So where does this leave us? Reeve knows a project exists called Deepground, but nothing else. All that investigating the disappearances got the WRO was rumours of screams from Midgar.

If there ever was an investigation, he would presumably ask his intel Dept what they knew about Shinra secrets. Shalua certainly would.

Which is where Yuffie's knowledge becomes a problem.

Edit:

I initially posted this in another thread, where I was breaking my vow to never agree with you. So, to get back on track ...

My favourite one's got to be the Rise of Skywalker trailer somehow getting us to the definition of slavery.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Which is where Yuffie's knowledge becomes a problem.

In what way, though? "Oh, that's freaky AF. Good thing we found no evidence of any surviving supersoldiers anywhere and he's probably dead. So, any ideas about this geostigma thing?"

 

[Makoeyes987]

Does TNN mean something? I think we have insufficient evidence to decide who they were tied to.

It rhymes with CNN. You know. The cable news network. It's a pun. TNN could easily stand for Television News Network and given it's appearance, one is meant to draw a connection to a cable news network on live TV.

Nothing in the game whatsoever hints that the network is tied to the WRO or that it was a WRO organization. It's just a television show. The chyron reads "A television crew and 38 members of an investigation team are believed to be missing."

Nowhere during Reeve's explanation in chapter 2 does he imply that the tv network is connected. In fact he states "The WRO conducted a private investigation but we came up empty-handed. Except for the rumors." So they're clearly doing their own thing. That public investigation on television was not their own.

Reeve even says the WRO was feeding reporters half the story in the first place. "It was determined internally that if the truth was leaked, they wouldn't be able to contain the inevitable panic. The actual number of people that went missing that day was 1200." Noticed Reeve used the word "leak." As in leaked to the public. If the tv station was a WRO affiliate akin to state television, "leaking" wouldn't be an issue. It'd be a matter of simply disseminating the information they wished the public to receive. Instead, it's a matter of hiding the confidential Intel on the nature/number of disappearances to avoid panicking the populace. They didn't "bury" it, they simply gave them only half the picture to prevent a "leak" from the WRO. That's not indicative of it being WRO owned or sponsored.

And again, this doesn't take Hojo leaking anything. Clearly as seen by the G Reports, the rumors in the Slums of Midgar, and the Sector 7 Neighborhood Watch members being aware of an underground research laboratory housing monsters, the knowledge of something scary lurking below Midgar is known to it's citizens. They're investigating those rumors and seeing if they could break in and take a peek. It's urban legend.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

It's also mentioned in Picturing the Past that people have gone missing from the slums for a *very* long time.... and then show up later being mentally out of it (Sephiroth Copies). The Shinra Labs are very leaky of their monsters no matter where those labs are.

So monsters in the slums from what might be one of Shinra's Science Labs is... old news to everyone who lived in the Slums. But it doesn't nessecarily mean "Deepground is under *here*". It instead means Hojo or one of his fellow scientists left the lab door open accidenlty on purpose up in the Shinra Building more often than not.

And I think that is... probably more what the WRO was expecting. Less "super secret SOLDIER experiment site" and more "Hojo Hidden Lab #29".

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Even if they thought it was simply another of Hojo's secret labs, that ought to have told them enough for them to make sure they didn't allow civilians anywhere near it, and Reeve should still have made sorting it out a priority. He of all people should know by now that when dealing when Shinra you can't simply look away and hope for the best.

Are the Shinra labs leaky of their monsters? The occassions I know of when monsters escaped into Midgar are:
1. When Hollander and his minions deliberately release them during Crisis Core and BC. Hollander and Co also meddle with the programming of the AI so that the defense bots turn into murder bots (incidentally, why is it even possible for the bots to be hacked in that way?)
2. After Avalanche's bombing of Reactor 1, which shatters some of the structures in the under-under-city and allows the mutant dog to escape.
3. After the dropping of the Sector 7 plate, which breaks up the under-structure even more.
I think there may be other incidents when monsters are released from the lab deliberately, but they never get out into the streets. They don't have monsters wandering outside on a regular basis.

Wymer: We've got a real killer on the loose, you see. A rabid catch dog. Maybe you heard people talking about it? Shinra mutt gone feral. Last sighting was in Scrap Boulevard. Think you're up to it?

Cloud: I'll handle it.

Wymer: You're a lifesaver! Doubt anyone else around her stands a chance! Go get 'em, bud.

(Upon approaching Wymer at the front of Scrap Boulevard after taking out half of Wrath Hound's HP.)
Wymer: Hey! Over here! Tifa! Hey, Cloud!

(Upon talking to Wymer.)
Wymer: I drove the hound into the area up ahead. He's pissed, so make sure you're ready.

(Upon talking to Wymer after defeating the Wrath Hound.)
Wymer: Took care of the dog, did ya? Phew! We owe you one.

Cloud: Gotta say, I've never seen a Shinra breed like that before. Out of curiosity, when exactly did it show up?

Wymer: Oh, today. The first reports came in just this morning. Uh...why do you ask?

Wymer: Wait a minute... There's this crazy story about a Shinra research lab hidden right beneath our feet—under the slums.

Cloud: Huh. Really...? That's news to me.

Wymer: And here I thought you might know something I don't! Well, I guess not.

Cloud: It's a big organization. I'm sure there's lots of secrets I don't know.

It doesn't even occur to Wymer that the "rabid" dog might have escaped from a Shinra lab until Cloud suggests it, so it seems escaped lab experiments isn't a thing that happens often round those parts (if ever).

When Cloud fights the monodrives in Sector 5, the Scared Man assumes they have come from the damaged reactor.

Scared Man: Shinra weapons are on the rampage. Five of 'em, like floatin' eyeballs! I saw them wander off into the scrap, but if they come back into town, it'd be a disaster. We need someone who's willing and able to fight...

Cloud: I'll handle it.

Scared Man: You will!? Aw man, you're the best! I could hear them shouting "intruder detected" or some other nonsense when they floated off. Be careful. They looked dangerous!

(Upon returning to the Scared Man after defeating Mark II Monodrives.)
Scared Man: I heard, I heard! You got 'em all, right? Robots from the reactor getting lost in the slums... Must be because of the explosion up top, huh? They must've thought they were protecting the reactor, and figured I was trespassin' on their turf or something.

People make assumptions based on their experience of what can be expected or is normal. It seems Shinra weapons running amok among the populace can be expected, but not so much so monsters escaping from Shinra labs.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

There's an entire mission line in Crisis Core where Zack has to kill monsters that have somehow escaped the Shinra Labs to the Slums. It ends with Hojo's 2nd-in-Command being lead away by security after he has a full on mental break down saying he let out his experiments to get revenge on the people of Midgar for letting Hojo experiment on Ifalna, the last Cetra.

Before Crisis has Fuhito come to get Hojo to join Avalanche and free a lot of other experiments on the way in to distract Shinra Security. Fuhito and Hojo discuss science like... an old married couple TBH. It would be cute if they weren't discussing how Fuhito had tweaked the SOLDIER regeneration factor into overdrive and Hojo was *very* impressed and wanted to see the outcome of it. Hojo is *fine* with Fuhito releasing monsters btw, he needs to test how good they are *somehow*... and that includes that one dragon that got released that Sephiroth had to take down... No really, apperently Hojo was doing some kind of experiment on a dragon in the Shinra building and it was let out by Fuhito. Sephiroth takes it down over one of MIdgar's freeways...

Before Crisis also has Episode: Reno which goes more into how Hollander and Genesis managed to get Shinra's Army mechs to fight for them instead of Shinra. The answer is... surprisingly mundane. They paid off Neumann, the head system administrator and the head of the team who developed Shinra's network in the first place. He had Administrative rights to the Security System the the Army mechs were on and reprogrammed the system for Hollander and Genesis.

And that's not even going into how Hojo has been unleashing Sephiroth Copies on the Midgar public for decades while paying off people to report back to him about what they get up to...

So yeah... I can... really believe that Hojo lets monsters out on purpose from time to time just to see what happens...

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Yes, my point is that whenever monsters get out, it's because they have been deliberately released, and it doesn't happen that often. The labs are not "leaky". The examples you raise are covered under my point #1.

"And that's not even going into how Hojo has been unleashing Sephiroth Copies on the Midgar public for decades while paying off people to report back to him about what they get up to..."
I believe you, but when does this happen?