SPOILERS INTERmission Chapter 2 Spoiler Discussion

[Makoeyes987]

Monsters are clearly leaky to some degree because they've happened enough times they've become ubiquitous and multiplied in the wild. Monsters and Shinra are the topic of urban legend. People in Nibelheim certainly thought there was something connected to monsters and the Reactor too.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Not all the monsters that exist in Midgar or in the world generally are escapees from Shinra labs. A lot of 'monsters', such as the rats, the gorgers, the hedgehog pies, the drakes, the blugu, the sahagin etc, etc.... are indigenous flora and fauna.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Those monsters are mutations of indigenous life, but there are multiple instances of Shinra specimens escaping and breeding. That's shown in Crisis Core and the Remake. Multiple enemies of the Remake are stated to be escaped creatures from Shinra Labs. And they just exist, roaming around people.

The Crisis Core Complete Guide states

Monsters

Living things, both plants and animals, who have been over-exposed to mako and thus suddenly mutated. The two causes are roughly divided between beings affected by natural springs of mako that well up from the soil, and those that were produced through Shin-Ra experiments. Therefore, in areas where there is little natural mako monsters are only seen on occasion, and as for the ones born from Shin-Ra experiments, many have escaped over the course of the war and have begun breeding in the wild.

Shinra has made most non-indigenous monsters.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

"Many have escaped over the course of war."

To me this means they didn't escape from the labs, but were taken to the theatres of the Wutai war to be used for military purposes, and escaped then.

Can we assume there are flora and fauna in the 'monster' list that aren't actually 'monsters' by that definition? E.g. sahagin, dragons, coast runners, behemoths?

 

[Makoeyes987]

I'd say those are more natural and all, but when you see things like those Varghidpolis, Proto-Sweepers, Smoggers, and Byobapolis, you know they probably came from Shinra scientists in some form or fashion.

That's true about the war, but you also find things that clearly could only have come from either some sort of experiment or research department that just... Got loose of its specimens/machinery and it's just wandering out and about.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

It doesn't even occur to Wymer that the "rabid" dog might have escaped from a Shinra lab until Cloud suggests it ...

Cloud doesn't suggest it, though? He just asks when the dog showed up. Wymer had already said it was a Shinra hellhound when initially bringing it up. Cloud even says that he doesn't know anything about a possible lab underground when Wymer suggests the possibility.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Well, god only knows what Wymer says in Japanese, but in English he calls it a "rabid catch dog" and a "Shinra mutt gone feral". It's not as if the people of the undercity haven't seen guard hounds a thousand times.

OK, I shouldn't have said "suggested", I should have said, "opened the door to the possibility". Cloud asks when it showed up, and that's when Wymer puts 2 and 2 together. He doesn't say, "Yes, the reactor explosion must have let some shit loose", but he clearly makes the connection: dog showed up that morning - big reactor explosion last night - underground lab. Before Cloud raised it, though, Wymer just assumed it was some kind of regular but sick guard hound. Which would imply that monsters escaping from Shinra's labs are not a regular occurrence and not the first explanation people would jump to.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

That's a fair enough point. Certainly there are plenty of nasty enough natural fauna out there (e.g. the Hedgehog Pie) that people need not instantly connect every set of nasty teeth with the company.

That being said, in some cases they do go ahead and make the connection, as with the bionic Mark II Monodrives.

Even in the case of the Wrath Hound, while Wymer's thoughts didn't immediately go to the rumors about a lab, he had obviously still previously concluded that the creature had gotten loose from Shin-Ra.

And then of course we do have a few common enemy species types that Assess explicitly identifies as having escaped from labs (the Varghidpolis and its two similar enemy types), as well as the Hellhound creatures whose assessment reveals were the product of experimentation (it doesn't say whether they escaped or were perhaps sold by a lab assistant).

Now, of course, the slums are practically littered with mechanical enemy types that Shin-Ra dumped down there or just allowed to wander off, so there's probably more of these than there are creatures -- but there's at least a few common monsters that are definite lab escapees.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

"And that's not even going into how Hojo has been unleashing Sephiroth Copies on the Midgar public for decades while paying off people to report back to him about what they get up to..."
I believe you, but when does this happen?

Picturing the Past, the Aerith short-story in the World Preview book for Remake. It's a fantastic look at Shinra's MPs and how they go about getting information they probably shouldn't exactly have access too.

Shinra was a leaky sieve for confidential information in Crisis Core and PtP just continues the trend. You have a normal MP knowing who to talk to and people having well known unspoken rules for trading information and characters suggesting what would make them have plausible deniability all over the place.

 

[Clement Rage]

They don't put up signs identifying escaped lab experiments as escaped lab experiments.

NPCs knowing everything is just a gameplay mechanic for the player to find lore.

In what way, though? "Oh, that's freaky AF. Good thing we found no evidence of any surviving supersoldiers anywhere and he's probably dead. So, any ideas about this geostigma thing?"

"There is a specifically very dangerous scary guy that shoots swirly black stuff in the basement of Shinra HQ, when I last saw him he was alive and in the basement of Shinra HQ. There's also a distinct unit of people that aren't SOLDIER but are enhanced like them, also in the basement of the Shinra building. Don't go down there, or if you do go armed for bear. Incidentally, Shalua, since you are specifically looking for your lost sister who was taken away to be a Shinra experiment, you might want to know that Shinra were keeping experiments in the basement, and as I work for the WRO intelligence dept, here is everything I know about Shinra secrets as a matter of course.'

Mako, I feel like it's giving a lot of credit to Japanese game devs to have them insert a very subtle joke about American cable news in the background of the opening FMV of a PS2 game in 2006.

And again, this doesn't take Hojo leaking anything. Clearly as seen by the G Reports, the rumors in the Slums of Midgar, and the Sector 7 Neighborhood Watch members being aware of an underground research laboratory housing monsters, the knowledge of something scary lurking below Midgar is known to it's citizens. They're investigating those rumors and seeing if they could break in and take a peek. It's urban legend.

Then why did they both discover the same information within weeks of each other?

Given the urgency with which they were moving, the TV crew almost certainly didn't think they were supposed to be there. Furthermore, in light of Reeve keeping information from them, there's even less reason to believe he approved this.

As for Rufus and the Turks, seeing as they were on a mission to clean up the mistakes of Rufus's father, they would have probably investigated this matter -- and given that they were willing to go to the literal ends of the planet in investigating Jenova, both they and the WRO probably did investigate Midgar's wreckage. But as we know: the Deepground facility was inescapable (and therefore inaccessible) for more than two years.

How much time and other resources were either Rufus's new Shin-Ra or the WRO supposed to dedicate to searching for a facility they had no reason to suspect existed on the scale at which Deepground had actually been constructed and staffed? A facility that was buried, probably destroyed, and now probably staffed by skeletons if anyone was even still there at all?

It doesn't seem that inaccessible from the outside. We see two people levering open a door, and while they have probably done some work beforehand, there doesn't seem to be any visible heavy machinery or anything, and there's only 38 of them, so there's a limit to the amount of excavigating they can accomplish. Unless it was a question of finding the right door to lever open.

It was probably more difficult to get out from the inside...or else Nero just didn't want to leave his brother.

We don't have enough information on the WRO's relationship to the media, but they could suppress a story as big as 1200 missing people, which could have been via keeping info secret or convincing them 'don't report on this in the interest of the planet.'

 

[Makoeyes987]

ako, I feel like it's giving a lot of credit to Japanese game devs to have them insert a very subtle joke about American cable news in the background of the opening FMV of a PS2 game in 2006.

It's not that subtle though?

It's a basic pun.

And CNN isn't just American. It's a global cable news network. Like, it's no different than there being a "Wacdonalds" in anime.

Then why did they both discover the same information within weeks of each other?

Because it's there?

The information is there, Deepground exists as do it's rumors. It's an urban legend, Shinra Labs deep beneath Midgar where experiments on people go on.

Playing through some of the Remake (again), in Chapter 4 once you return to the Sector 7 Slums after parachuting back down from the upper plate with Jessie, you can find a group of women NPCs by Biggs house talking about finding jobs in Midgar. And one of them talks about working for Shinra in an unidentified experiment at a reactor. And she says she heard it pays well. However, her friend reminds her of the rumor that a lot of people don't come back from that kind of work.

What do you think that work is, hm?

It's all ubiquitous at this point. Shinra human experimentation on "grounders" or other undesirables they need to make disappear, is a dark urban legend based on fact.

The investigative journalism and WRO researching and discovering the same thing means they were working off the same info and found the truth. WRO however tried to cover it up because they wished to avoid mass panic.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

It doesn't seem that inaccessible from the outside. We see two people levering open a door, and while they have probably done some work beforehand, there doesn't seem to be any visible heavy machinery or anything, and there's only 38 of them, so there's a limit to the amount of excavigating they can accomplish. Unless it was a question of finding the right door to lever open.

Are you of the understanding those people let them out? It seems very unlikely that those folks accomplished in a few seconds what all of Deepground had failed to in more than two years ...

I've always understood what we see in that news footage to be civilians -- dissatisfied with the WRO's official line on the matter -- desperately, angrily taking matters into their own hands and investigating in response to the disappearances that had begun happening after Deepground breached the surface.

 

[Roundhouse]

My friend, the fates are cruel,
When the hero returns none will await him,
He will search for his love in vain.

Even if the morrow is barren of promise,
He will continue seeking,
Until the day they reunite,
The sacrifice at world's end.

 

[Mayo Master]

Hey folks!
[reads 32 pages of comments]
Geez, the thread had been completely hijacked by the 10 seconds of Zack!!!

Anyway, I thought I'd share my impressions on Chapter 2...
Well, I really enjoyed it. First, on the gameplay level: combat continued to be very entertaining, especially with more time to do more combos with Sonon. Also, the "Bust-a-box" minigame (in particular: finishing that last bit of SOLDIER training) forced me to actually get a much better handle on Yuffie's gameplay than I initially did. I must admit that I was throwing attacks willy-nilly in the first part of the game, and to me the final stage of Bust-a-box served as a great tutorial to actually git gud. For one thing, I felt I was well in control of the entire fight vs. Nero.

For me, the highlight of the chapter was Scarlet taking the role of the main villainess. Like for so many other characters, SE did a splendid job of developing her original characterization. She always carried herself with a feeling of superiority and invulnerability. She was always in control during her confrontations with Yuffie&Sonon, turning condescension into a work of art. I like how she toyed with their sentiment of "being the good guys" to ensure they wouldn't do a thing to her. Awesome stuff.

Exploring the weapon development lab was really neat, with all the heli-gunners on display. I personally enjoyed the tie-in with Deepground and Dirge (personally, I've never played Dirge and I only watched cutscenes on Youtube, an experience that left me on a definite "meh"), they've made a pretty solid job with how creepy Nero was. Deepground sure looks like a meat grinder, seeing how easily the basic soldiers get consumed. Anyway, Nero was a great boss fight and a very good way to finish the chapter. I'm not fussed about how Yuffie's encounter with Deepground is jeopardizing Dirge's plot, because at this point in time the events of Dirge have not come to pass and things can follow many different directions from there. Besides, in the meantime, the Whispers probably had their hands (?) full anyway.

Alas, poor Sonon - the guy was fated to die before he even had screen time (looks at what's happening to Zack)... Right. I really didn't mind him as a character - I understand that some folks can be quite jaded with some tropes, but I think he served his purpose in the story well enough. I did prefer that he died with a bit of blood. Otherwise I agree that drawn-out death scenes tend to be less impactful. Sometimes, less is more. The execution left something to be desired

And now, the ending.
The chatter between the main characters was great, heartwarming even, with so many references to the OG lines (Barret not meeting any argument when calling himself the 'leader' was interesting). The growing camaraderie between the party members, and seeing the ramparts of Kalm in the distant arid landscape, those things really make me yearn for part 2. Gotta be patient! I'll admit I did not realize Choco Bill was the truck driver until after the credits rolled (I was like "he looks familiar and his character design is distinct, I'm sure I've seen his face before" *scratches head*)

As for Zack and his Pandora box of paradox: I can't say I have much to add, really. Or rather, I don't really feel strongly for one theory or another. In my view, while "where Zack is" is shown, "when Zack is" is not. The presentation suggests that the distressed folks inside the Church are refugees from the Sector 7 Plate collapse, but there's nothing to confirm it. We could be looking at post-Zirconiade drama for all we know. There's the issue with the 3-months gap that others have outlined. And if Zack is on a merging timeline with where & when the party is, we have the paradox of having 2 Buster Swords and 2 Clouds (not to mention: what would alive!Zack do with comatose!Cloud moving forward?). All I know is that I'm ignorant, and all I'm hoping for is for things to make sense in the end.
To be honest, the level of What-the-fuckery is actually not worse than the events at the Northern Crater and their aftermath, when playing the OG for the first time (and you don't know that the Lifestream scene is a thing). On that ground, I remain optimistic about how the whole story will turn out.

 

[Tetsujin]

jfc Bahamut is wrecking my shit lol

 

[Makoeyes987]

Bahamut's an asshole, you just need to spam synergy and use Yuffie's ninjutsu magic from a distance to be safe.

Brumal Form is perfect for when Bahamut tries to wreck your shit with Umbral Frenzy.

 

[looneymoon]

spam brumal form and keep attacking as much as possible! use synergized abilities when he does a countdown and he'll get pressured.

 

[Tetsujin]

I completely forgot about brumal form, this is making my life easier a bit for sure

Bahamut still wrecking my shit though but at least I progressed. Got him staggered once even. But man, once he summons Ifrit things get ~h a i r y~

edit: Did a bit of grinding to get my Elemental materia up to lvl 2. At least I should be able to nullify most of Ifrit's shit now >.>

edit 2: whew, just did it. This took a few attempts. Definitely harder than the Top Secrets battle in the main game, I did that on the first attempt
Now for Intermission hard mode and finally, Weiss

 

[Clement Rage]

Are you of the understanding those people let them out? It seems very unlikely that those folks accomplished in a few seconds what all of Deepground had failed to in more than two years ...

I've always understood what we see in that news footage to be civilians -- dissatisfied with the WRO's official line on the matter -- desperately, angrily taking matters into their own hands and investigating in response to the disappearances that had begun happening after Deepground breached the surface.

I don't think the timing works for that, the footage came in from three weeks ago, the reporter's tone would be different, and they'd never have got so far alive.

What I understood to happen went something like this.

1. Hojo uploads himself to the internet
2. The internet goes down with Meteor.
3. Shortly before Dirge, the internet is switched back on (which is why they'gre celebrating in Kalm) so Hojo is revived.
4. He gets into DG systems and makes Nero an offer.
5. He sends information to the WRO, because he needs someone to break the seal, which is where the WRO gets Scarlet's files but knows basically nothing about them. With or without WRO involvement, the rescue team goes in (both the newscaster and Reeve mention uncovering new info recently, they're not acting on old urban legends.)000
6. The rescue team break the seal, which is designed to keep DG in, not outsiders out. They're never seen again.
7. Nero vanishes people from Junon. Their screams are heard from Edge. The WRO suppresses the story, but goes on alert. Nero can't collect enough captives by himself, DG gears up for war.
8. Reeve, knowing something is up, alerts the old AVALANCHE gang, including meeting Vincent in Kalm.g

 

[Makoeyes987]

There's nothing that says Hojo got outside people to let Deepground out. They were getting out on their own and scouting the surrounding areas in secret.

The investigative team did not break out Deepground either. Nothing indicates that.

The new info Reeve discovered was on the specifics of Deepground, their purpose, and their members, like the Tsviets. That came from newly discovered Shinra files.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I don't think there's really anything proving it one way or the other. I just know which sounds silly to me.

EDIT: But I do have to agree that the timing with Hojo's copy reawakening a few weeks prior could lend itself to that theory. He should have known how to get them out.

 

[Shademp]

Yet another thought regarding Aerith missing in Zack's new timeline: One potential consequence of the Whispers being destroyed might be that certain individuals are now only allowed to physically exist in one timeline at a time. Aerith's self in what became the terrier timeline dissolved but partially affected Aerith's soul in the beagle timeline, which is why "her stomach is in knots". She feels the ripples of her other self being removed from existence.

If something along these lines is happening, we may or may not see other people being displaced between timelines all willy nilly. Zack might also find soon that his Cloud has disappeared as well because there can be only one Cloud. Here's hoping Zack doesn't also lose his Buster Sword (or that Cloud loses his Buster Sword because of the conservation of time and energy).

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

They can only exist in timeline at a time, but Sephiroth can exist in all of them, all the time. So, in order for their party to be at full strength for the final showdown, one of the timelines has to go, which means the people currently alive in it are going to have to be dead....

 

[Makoeyes987]

Wow, that'd be pretty dark

 

[KindOfBlue]

…you sure it’s not from the DC universe?

In all serious, whether we’re in an alternate timeline or a parallel timeline, I’d be interested to see an outcome where Meteor actually succeeds, I guess that could be the “bad timeline”?