Is Zack partially to blame for what happened to Cloud?
- Thread starter linegenrou
- Start date
- Status
Alexia Ashford
SOMEONE IN THE CORRIDOR?
- AKA
- Konneh
Actually, what I'd gotten from that line was that he was referring to his sword. Y'know... since the sword became the embodiment of his honor and dreams.
But yeah, really that probably had like .00001% effect of Cloud's insane...ness.
And if Zack hadn't told him to live for teh both of them, Cloud might have gone off into his own pit of despair and died of guilt since Cloud seemed to blame himself for Zack's death as well as Aerith's.
And even if that statement that Cloud probably can't remember when he thinks he's Zack anyway helped make him go nuts, Zack was kinda full of holes. You try carefully plotting how to say what you need to say in a way that won't be taken poorly or make things worse when you're 2 seconds away from death and are in immense pain. :/
But yeah, really that probably had like .00001% effect of Cloud's insane...ness.
And if Zack hadn't told him to live for teh both of them, Cloud might have gone off into his own pit of despair and died of guilt since Cloud seemed to blame himself for Zack's death as well as Aerith's.
And even if that statement that Cloud probably can't remember when he thinks he's Zack anyway helped make him go nuts, Zack was kinda full of holes. You try carefully plotting how to say what you need to say in a way that won't be taken poorly or make things worse when you're 2 seconds away from death and are in immense pain. :/
Kai Schulen
... ... ...▼
- AKA
- Trainer Red
I lol'd. Blaming Zack for Cloud's mental state is like blaming Vincent for how Sephiroth turned out. It all makes sense now!
Cat Rage Room
Great Old One
- AKA
- Mog
If Cloud was born one day later, through a series of missteps, a Chocobo ride, and a few bottles of Junon Vodka, Tifa and Cloud would be brother and sister.
linegenrou
linegenrou
No, miss. He is not partially to blame. The blame falls on Hojo, and Sephiroth. Zack's no more to blame than the dead people in the green goo that were pumped into Cloud's veins which made him a cucumber.
Everyone is so caught up that I said Zack is partially to blame (god forbid) for Cloud's mental state at the beginning of FFVII that you all missed the point of the whole thing.
Let's say HE'S NOT TO BLAME BUT HE HAD EFFECT ON CLOUD'S MENTAL STATE SAYING THAT SHIT TO HIM.
So,as I said in my previous post (that I just have to repeat because it seems like everyone is just MISSING THE POINT I JUST MADE LIKE 3 TIMES ALREADY),he told Cloud that when he got to Midgar,he wanted to become a mercenary...and OH MY GOD,that's what Cloud is in the beginning of FFVII,fullfilling Zack's goal!
So with that,I guess Cloud heard Zack telling him his plans,and actually in his Zack's persona,he fullfilled Zack's wish...
Could it be because of what Zack told him before dying? And Cloud took it literally because of Jenova and his already disturbed mind? Maybe that too influenced Cloud's relationship with Aerith?
linegenrou
linegenrou
What? 
Celes Chere
Banned
- AKA
- Noctis
Celes Chere
Banned
- AKA
- Noctis
Aerith loves Zack.
ROFL. *snorts Zerith sugar sticks*
Celes Chere
Banned
- AKA
- Noctis
I never said Zack and Aerith were smexing, just that they were in love. 
GAWD.
GAWD.
ForceStealer
Double Growth
Try to keep the LTD out of this if you can peeps
Dashell
SMILE!
- AKA
- Sonique, Quexinos, Pinkie Pie, Derpy Hooves
linegenrou
linegenrou
Oh noes...
I didn't mean a romantic relationship.
Cloud cared for her a lot.
I didn't mean a romantic relationship.
Cloud cared for her a lot.
Neo Bahamut
Omnipotent Jackass
- AKA
- Lithp, Unholy Quadralateral
No, I would agree to the basic premise that Zack helped influence Cloud's breakdown.
Just because he didn't mean for it to happen that way does not mean it was not partially his fault. Because it was not his intention, we are also more inclined to downplay his responsibility.
It's like the story about the woman who is murdered because she was out having an affair & does not have proper ferry toll. When deciding who is most responsible, some people will say the woman, some will say the ferryman, some will say the murderer, & some will even say the husband.
I, personally, will not say that Zack is by any means the most responsible for Cloud's breakdown, but I won't deny that he was probably a factor, even if he didn't mean to be.
This part's kind of a philosophy thing: Are the morality of actions determined by their consequences or by their intentions? Most people, myself included, would say that intentions determine the morality of an action. That is why most people, myself included, don't really blame Zack for anything.
But you can't really deny the fact that he did influence Cloud's life a great deal & his final words put a lot of unnecessary pressure on Cloud. He meant well, but he fucked up, basically.
As to the butterfly effect analogies, they aren't really valid. We can see that Zack has an immediate effect on Cloud. The OP isn't questioning the nature of causality in terms of seemingly unrelated events.
Just because he didn't mean for it to happen that way does not mean it was not partially his fault. Because it was not his intention, we are also more inclined to downplay his responsibility.
It's like the story about the woman who is murdered because she was out having an affair & does not have proper ferry toll. When deciding who is most responsible, some people will say the woman, some will say the ferryman, some will say the murderer, & some will even say the husband.
I, personally, will not say that Zack is by any means the most responsible for Cloud's breakdown, but I won't deny that he was probably a factor, even if he didn't mean to be.
This part's kind of a philosophy thing: Are the morality of actions determined by their consequences or by their intentions? Most people, myself included, would say that intentions determine the morality of an action. That is why most people, myself included, don't really blame Zack for anything.
But you can't really deny the fact that he did influence Cloud's life a great deal & his final words put a lot of unnecessary pressure on Cloud. He meant well, but he fucked up, basically.
As to the butterfly effect analogies, they aren't really valid. We can see that Zack has an immediate effect on Cloud. The OP isn't questioning the nature of causality in terms of seemingly unrelated events.
Neo Bahamut
Omnipotent Jackass
- AKA
- Lithp, Unholy Quadralateral
"Common sense is just the list of prejudices one acquires in their lifetime."
What the OP is saying is a completely sound argument.
Let's say you have a friend who isn't very good at math. They voice their concern that they might fail a test. You, in an attempt to be nice, tell them that they can do it if they try. Your friend responds, "Oh, so you're saying I don't TRY?!" & storms off in a huff.
You did not plan to do so, & you might make the argument that you weren't the main factor, but you DID contribute to your friend's bad mood.
I don't see where you guys get the idea that, just because it wasn't Zack's intention to do any harm, it means that he didn't. That's not the way it works. Everything is not going to turn out precisely the way one intends for it to. In fact, it's where we get the saying "The road to Hell is paved with good intentions."
What the OP is saying is a completely sound argument.
Let's say you have a friend who isn't very good at math. They voice their concern that they might fail a test. You, in an attempt to be nice, tell them that they can do it if they try. Your friend responds, "Oh, so you're saying I don't TRY?!" & storms off in a huff.
You did not plan to do so, & you might make the argument that you weren't the main factor, but you DID contribute to your friend's bad mood.
I don't see where you guys get the idea that, just because it wasn't Zack's intention to do any harm, it means that he didn't. That's not the way it works. Everything is not going to turn out precisely the way one intends for it to. In fact, it's where we get the saying "The road to Hell is paved with good intentions."
Alexia Ashford
SOMEONE IN THE CORRIDOR?
- AKA
- Konneh
Well wouldn't you say that the fact Zack existed at all was the reason Cloud went through the mental breakdown?
And Zack said "we're gonna be mercenaries" Not that just he was gonna be. So that was a plan for both of them to do together.
I DO understand what you're saying, but really it's so insignificant that there was no point in saying it.
Yes, if Zack did not exist Cloud would not think he was Zack.
But then, if Zack did not exist Cloud probably would have died at Nibelheim when Sephiroth burned everything. (Can't say for sure, but -shrug-)
I'm sure most of us get your point, but what we're trying to say is that you're pointing the finger at something random. Zack had probably just as much of an effect on Cloud's break down as every single thing that has ever happened to Cloud during his life time.
Like the cereal box that said join SOLDIER we're cool that made him join SOLDIER because it was cool. XD
JK Cloud was too poor for cereal.
But anyway back to my point. There's no point in blaming Zack for Cloud's break down because he was just one of many things in Cloud's life before it happened. If this hadn't happened so that wouldn't have happened so this is to blame. That could be filled in with so many different things and you just filled it in to Zack. That's why we think it's silly.
And Zack said "we're gonna be mercenaries" Not that just he was gonna be. So that was a plan for both of them to do together.
I DO understand what you're saying, but really it's so insignificant that there was no point in saying it.
Yes, if Zack did not exist Cloud would not think he was Zack.
But then, if Zack did not exist Cloud probably would have died at Nibelheim when Sephiroth burned everything. (Can't say for sure, but -shrug-)
I'm sure most of us get your point, but what we're trying to say is that you're pointing the finger at something random. Zack had probably just as much of an effect on Cloud's break down as every single thing that has ever happened to Cloud during his life time.
Like the cereal box that said join SOLDIER we're cool that made him join SOLDIER because it was cool. XD
JK Cloud was too poor for cereal.
But anyway back to my point. There's no point in blaming Zack for Cloud's break down because he was just one of many things in Cloud's life before it happened. If this hadn't happened so that wouldn't have happened so this is to blame. That could be filled in with so many different things and you just filled it in to Zack. That's why we think it's silly.
Max Payne
Banned
- AKA
- Leon S. Kennedy,Terry Bogard, The Dark Knight, Dacon, John Marston, Teal'c
Derp.
If a person is influenced by another person's actions, it's that person's fault that they allow themselves to be influenced.
In Cloud's case, he has a very good excuse being that he's mentally damaged and infected with alien matter that makes it all the worse.
Zack isn't to blame for anything. It's not his fault that Cloud imprinted on him at all. Zack was all that Cloud had left, that was going to have a profound effect on him no matter what, but Cloud's psychosis IS NOT his fault. It's a direct outcome of all the shit that was done to him, NOT Zack.
linegenrou
linegenrou
linegenrou
linegenrou
Well wouldn't you say that the fact Zack existed at all was the reason Cloud went through the mental breakdown?
And Zack said "we're gonna be mercenaries" Not that just he was gonna be. So that was a plan for both of them to do together.
I DO understand what you're saying, but really it's so insignificant that there was no point in saying it.
Yes, if Zack did not exist Cloud would not think he was Zack.
But then, if Zack did not exist Cloud probably would have died at Nibelheim when Sephiroth burned everything. (Can't say for sure, but -shrug-)
I'm sure most of us get your point, but what we're trying to say is that you're pointing the finger at something random. Zack had probably just as much of an effect on Cloud's break down as every single thing that has ever happened to Cloud during his life time.
Like the cereal box that said join SOLDIER we're cool that made him join SOLDIER because it was cool. XD
JK Cloud was too poor for cereal.
But anyway back to my point. There's no point in blaming Zack for Cloud's break down because he was just one of many things in Cloud's life before it happened. If this hadn't happened so that wouldn't have happened so this is to blame. That could be filled in with so many different things and you just filled it in to Zack. That's why we think it's silly.
No,he said HE was the one to become a mercenary.
After that,he said to Cloud: "I won't leave you behind...we're friends right?"
- Status