Japanese audio track subtitles: concerns

[SailorStarDust]

I'm thrilled to know we're getting JP audio as an option, but I certainly do not want a repeat of Advent Children-style "dubtitles" which still held true even with AC Complete (the English audio track is how the Japanese audio was subtitled, so things aren't literal). Already some of Tifa's lines in the JP vs EN Remake trailers give off pretty, um, different, feelings in the Twitter link example.

One great example is "Which is it, a memory or us?" is actually "Are we going to lose to a memory?" And of course, ("Zuruzuru", a sound effect as in "dragging"—in this case, the past) is rendered as "Dilly dally shilly shally" which makes no damn sense with Cloud's later lines of "feeling lighter" because he's stopped dragging his past around.​

​

I was concerned enough that I shot Squenix a message and they replied in a typical NDA manner:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1139041505786716160

but hopefully they'll take this stuff to heart? Especially if enough fans voice their concerns?

I mean, is having closed captioned English subtitles for the English audio track plus accurate subtitles for the Japanese audio track honestly that hard to implement? I'm certain other game companies have easily done it for their releases, even a title last year or in 2017? I want to say it was a Switch or Steam title. (I hope, too, other audio foreign languages they've listed are included in the English release as stated—that'd be pretty sweet)

 

[trash panda]

I think some things will always be lost in translation. Not because the translators aren't doing a good jerb, but because of basically every component of sociolinguistics. Language, pragmatics, context, etc., all differ not only from one language to another, but also between cultures, social classes, neighborhoods, households, etc. If anything, I would appreciate the variation in context offered between different language options because it gives us a more intimate view into that specific culture.

Given what we've seen of the remake so far, I think SE is making an astronomical effort to create an absolute masterpiece. I doubt that they will skimp on the localization front and they will do everything to ensure that translations are not only culturally appropriate, but also relatable to the whole audience where translations will occur.

Also, AC is a bad example because that film sucked in every way possible THERE I SAID IT DO NOT BAN ME.

 

[Ryuman]

The only instance of a game having a different subtitle track for the Japanese audio that I can think of is the upcoming 'Judgement' (Judge Eyes). I'd love to know about other ones though!
Anyway I'd be incredibly surprised if Square Enix went this route, especially since they usually are so... particular with their localisations. That and they've kinda only recently embraced the idea of offering players a choice of audio track.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

(the English audio track is how the Japanese audio was subtitled, so things aren't literal).

This right here is where you're going to encounter a fundamental issue. Literal translations of dialogue really still aren't, but even moreso when you're dealing with a language like Japanese that has so many expressions and minor differentiations that have no direct correlation, and then even moreso when you're attempting to match what the conveyance about a particular character is acting like and how they're developing across the span of a series/game within the context of a localized language, and then even moreso when the particular portrayal of a character are properly adapted to the extant cultural contexts that convey the idea properly to the language it's being translated into.

There's a reason that Naruto's "dattebayo" has a made-up English phrase "Believe it!" to fill for it, because it LITERALLY has no English equivalent meaning. It's an exclamatory verb conjugation that he uses as a way to express sincerity and enthusiasm as a reaffirmation of whatever he's just said that's also uniquely personalized to most sentences of his regular dialogue. That's why some Japanese-centric translations lean in on their sub audiences being heavily knowledgable about Japanese culture to be able to parse those things for themselves by inserting those things literally, and providing translators' notes to fill in the context.

Even something simple like Osaka regional verb conjugation, the san/kun/chan/dono/sama suffixes, and when a character differentiates an escalation in their relationship between using the common family name to using a character's given name instead. Those aren't 1:1 equivalent's if you're providing a "literal" translation into English – because if you JUST translate literally, you're failing to accurately communicate the conveyances that don't exist in a particular language that literally don't have an equivalent in the second language.

This is where you start to run into another complication is that you have regional voice actors – yes you're going to match SOME aspects of the character, but you're ALSO going to match that character's role and archetype to one that matches the region that it's being created for as best as you can. Barret's strong stoicism for the more bombastic Mr. T version that he has in the American adaptation.


Now, you've got an issue to solve:

You've fully localized a game to be accurate and customized for an entire regional audience, including the entire English script. Some people need help hearing, other people need to be able to play with various levels of background noise, etc. so those options are made available as SUBTITLES.

Do you have an entirely different group than the one you hired to localize the game go through and provide "literal" subtitles in every language for every other language? What if I want to play it with German audio and Japanese subtitles? Do I expect the Japanese to go translate all of the individualized localizations for their own versions of the subtitles, rather than including the original Japanese dialogue?

The amount of work that requires to do it with the necessary configurations to provide the equivalent "accuracy" for every version of audio & subtitles explodes exponentially. That's why the subtitles are JUST the text of the country's particular localization, and unless you have a VERY highly special interest group who's looking for a particular configuration (like "literal" English translation of the Japanese dialogue), it's going to have to be a REALLY loud demand – AND it's going to have to be called out clearly enough that nobody who's looking for the standard "I want to see what they're saying in my own language" option is going to enable the wrong one.


I'm not saying it won't/can't happen – I'm just saying that you need a very particularly interested group to do that.

I would know – because I actually made a personalized subtitle track for Advent Children way back in the day for the exact reason that I am one of those groups of people who really enjoys these kinds of things (that's been long since lost in the dead hard drives of time), but the work required has to match the cost associated, and for a project as big as FFVII – That's the sort of thing that you'd have a better chance asking for as a small DLC since it's 100% supplementary to 99.9% of peoples' experience with the game, so the RoI is basically nothing.





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[ForceStealer]

I mean, the zuruzuru thing is the perfect case in point. Short of making Tifa go "KKKGGGHHSSGGGSGG" and making everyone think she's having a stroke, how do you translate that 'faithfully'?

 

[SailorStarDust]

I think some things will always be lost in translation. Not because the translators aren't doing a good jerb,

Always happy to see Strong Bad live on

Given what we've seen of the remake so far, I think SE is making an astronomical effort to create an absolute masterpiece. I doubt that they will skimp on the localization front and they will do everything to ensure that translations are not only culturally appropriate, but also relatable to the whole audience where translations will occur.

100% they're treating this project with care, so I'll be interested in seeing how things evolve further out, too.

Also, AC is a bad example because that film sucked in every way possible THERE I SAID IT DO NOT BAN ME.

rofl, there's a reason I take AC and the Compilation as a whole as pure fanservice Cloud overcoming his problems (including guilt) was already greatly implied in VII's ending, though there is some realism in PTSD/survivor's guilt, certainly. (Plus, crippling depression from Geostigma put a damper on just livin' his life.)

The only instance of a game having a different subtitle track for the Japanese audio that I can think of is the upcoming 'Judgement' (Judge Eyes). I'd love to know about other ones though!

I feel like it could've been a multi-platform Sega release (but maybe something on Switch??), so maybe it was Judge Eyes. AFAIK all the (PS4 era) Yakuza games are JP-only with subtitles.

Anyway I'd be incredibly surprised if Square Enix went this route, especially since they usually are so... particular with their localisations. That and they've kinda only recently embraced the idea of offering players a choice of audio track.

Honestly, I'm just jazzed to finally have that freedom of choice for audio in "modern" games. Admittedly I was turned off by FFX back in the day because it was an English dub, but that was my hardcore weeb phase

I'm not saying it won't/can't happen – I'm just saying that you need a very particularly interested group to do that.

I would know – because I actually made a personalized subtitle track for Advent Children way back in the day for the exact reason that I am one of those groups of people who really enjoys these kinds of things (that's been long since lost in the dead hard drives of time), but the work required has to match the cost associated, and for a project as big as FFVII – That's the sort of thing that you'd have a better chance asking for as a small DLC since it's 100% supplementary to 99.9% of peoples' experience with the game,

Being the big nerd that I am, I'd be 100% fine with an optional DLC, honestly.

Also, I remember back in the day watching JP rips of Advent Children (DVD then later Complete Bluray) that had "faithfully" translated subs, hah. I swear I've said it elsewhere on here (maybe in the On the Way to a Smile thread), but: translating is 100% a tricky balancing act, for certain. I've translated plenty of random nerdy stuff, myself.

Regarding kansai-ben, I'll be interested in seeing if they make Reeve/Cait Scottish for the dub this time around?

I mean, the zuruzuru thing is the perfect case in point. Short of making Tifa go "KKKGGGHHSSGGGSGG" and making everyone think she's having a stroke, how do you translate that 'faithfully'?

Tifa (+ Aerith, since she repeats the line) point-blank saying how he's "drifting", maybe? I wish I could remember how the fansubs rendered it!
Side note that in my English copy of On the Way to A smile, there's a part in Episode Tifa where Cloud comments that "it's not like her to be so weighed down", but I dunno if the Japanese there is using zuruzuru or what?? Because that'd be an amusing reference if so!

 

[ForceStealer]

"Drifting" wouldn't make anymore sense with feeling lighter than dilly dallying did. If anything "drifting" sounds like something you do when you're light, lol.

 

[JBedford]

What if I want to play it with German audio and Japanese subtitles? Do I expect the Japanese to go translate all of the individualized localizations for their own versions of the subtitles, rather than including the original Japanese dialogue?

This is a fair point, but I think that goes beyond anyone's expectations. What people would expect is dubtitles when their chosen audio language matches the text language, and a translation of the native (Japanese) language text when they don't. Anything else is appealing to the personal preferences of a very small few.

However, it does raise the problems with just using the English subtitles with Japanese dialogue. I was watching a video on YT of someone who rigged their game to show the English subtitles with the Japanese audio for FFXIII, and there were lines where a subtitle was shown even where nothing was said in Japanese because for the localisation they found a place to add dialogue where there isn't in the original.

I don't usually play games with Japanese audio/English subs and have probably only seen it when searching YT videos, but games tend to be far more liberal with localisations, particularly Square games. I don't really know why anyone with any knowledge of the language their listening to could tolerate it really, because it always takes me out of what I'm watching when what I'm reading doesn't match what I'm hearing.

With anime I'm sure they translate for the subs first then adapt it for the dub, but anime dubs try to be more faithful to the source content already so this process is probably very different for the Remake.

I mean, the zuruzuru thing is the perfect case in point. Short of making Tifa go "KKKGGGHHSSGGGSGG" and making everyone think she's having a stroke, how do you translate that 'faithfully'?

With subtitles you are afforded the opportunity of not having to match lip flaps, and also not having to make total English sense because the audience understand that it's a translation. So they could go with "drag, drag" or "always dragging your feet" or whatever (I don't know the specific context of the line, but a short text line that gets the idea across is possible in a sub where it isn't in a dub).

I don't think the zuruzuru example is the best one to illustrate why using dubtitles with the original language is bad, but it does show how having to translate and match lip flaps compromises the ability to capture the original meaning.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

This is a fair point, but I think that goes beyond anyone's expectations. What people would expect is dubtitles when their chosen audio language matches the text language, and a translation of the native (Japanese) language text when they don't. Anything else is appealing to the personal preferences of a very small few.

However, it does raise the problems with just using the English subtitles with Japanese dialogue. I was watching a video on YT of someone who rigged their game to show the English subtitles with the Japanese audio for FFXIII, and there were lines where a subtitle was shown even where nothing was said in Japanese because for the localisation they found a place to add dialogue where there isn't in the original.

I don't usually play games with Japanese audio/English subs and have probably only seen it when searching YT videos, but games tend to be far more liberal with localisations, particularly Square games. I don't really know why anyone with any knowledge of the language their listening to could tolerate it really, because it always takes me out of what I'm watching when what I'm reading doesn't match what I'm hearing.

With anime I'm sure they translate for the subs first then adapt it for the dub, but anime dubs try to be more faithful to the source content already so this process is probably very different for the Remake.

That's still a full second "subtitle" track for any language that they're localizing it into, unless you think that the English-speaking audience are the only ones who're interested in that sort of thing (because they very much aren't), and that's a good bit of work. Again – I'm not saying that it can't / won't happen, but that's also a lot of push-pull pressure around the localization & translations working in minor opposition to one another with such a MASSIVE undertaking like you'd get in a game like this. It IS the kind of game with the audience to potentially justify it (especially given the game's original translation and how nostalgia plays with it), but I'm just saying that it's unlikely at best.


Also – on a completely different note, but directly related to things that happened because of this thread:

Fucking. Lulz.

Soooo... I got curious, and as it turns out, I had an e-mail of my custom AC subtitle track back from 9/13/2005 that Geo had copied to me sitting around in my old spam Hotmail account, and again from someone else who sent me the .srt version a month later. (Since I know everyone is curious, I translated the "zuru zuru" line as an incomplete thought of trying to address issues of frustration with Cloud without having the proper words to express it by using, "You're just, just..." "You're just so..." because I knew they were going to get interrupted by Reno and so it serves a similar purpose in having a dead-ended conversation that swiftly switches tone).

So, now I guess if anyone still has an old DVD rip of the original AC, that you can watch on a media player that accepts custom .srt files, and are curious how I decided to personally approximate the translation (probably with some assistance of some ACFers back... 14 years ago... when I was 19 years old... (gods I'm old as hell and have been in this community for fucking AGES) – I've totally got access to that.






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[Ite]

I first saw AC bootlegged, in Japanese with a fansub, and it was much like any fansub - anything that required context had a small paragraph on the top of the screen (usually accompanying an asterix in the actual subtitle) letting us know exactly what significance this word has in the context of Japanese culture. I CAN'T READ THAT FAST DAMNIT.

So in one sense, I don't want an overly convoluted literal translation. It simply can't be done with the flow of the cinematic-like scenes.

On the other hand, I can already see how we're losing the story in the english version. In the Japanese trailer, where Tifa says "I feel trapped" in Japanese she says "Pinch" -- she's making a direct reference to the promise she made with Cloud 7 years ago, and that aspect of her meaning is completely missing in the english version. I mean, who knows, it could make sense in the context of the scene, but I doubt it. "I feel trapped" is super generic. "Pinch" is not.

 

[Eerie]

I saw a lot of people wondering about that "I feel trapped" and how it might reference Tifa's feelings towards what they are doing as Avalanche... they were already afraid that Cloud would have to be the one who'd cheer her up even (was it here or in Reddit? I read too much stuff lately so I don't remember). But if you change it to "I'm in a pinch" suddenly it makes all sense and Tifa's asking Cloud's help through their promise and that change the meaning completely.

So while I do agree that translation will always lose something in translation, having translations done in a way that make sense with the characters is important too.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

It's also worth noting that they may also have adjusted the translation of the flashback to make it fit better contextually with that reference in English so that it's both a callback as well as a reference to their promise as kids.




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[Ite]

Rest assured the remake script will undergo the same star treatment that the original script did, it's just a matter of time.

 

[rimavelle]

This conversation reminds me of early anime fansubs I saw 10 years ago. They used a ton of untranslatable Japanese words then added an explanation at the top of the screen, so you had to pause every few minutes and read. It was great opportunity to learn what all the -san, -chan meant, but would never fly if you couldn't pause the video. Also jokes 100% don't work this way.
I play a lot of games with English dub and Polish subs and they never match. It's not because of dubtitles, coz most of the time the game doesn't have Polish dub at all. I don't know how could they match without looking like the early-fan-subs I mentioned. And I'm pretty sure it's easier to translate from English to Polish than Japanese to English. Beside language you have whole culture difference. You may think everyone would understand something, because you do, as a person that knows something about Japan and so chooses to play with Japanese audio. But it may not be true.
I like to play with Japanese audio and English subs, because even when they don't match, I can tell more or less, what the difference is. If not in the words then in the feelings of the character. It's always closer to the "true vision" of the creator, as no matter how good the translation it will never be 100% the same.
The only issue I have, with the Japanese audio-English subs in FFVII:R is that not all of the dialog is subtitled. In the demo there are at least three lines characters say that are left unsubtitled, so if you play in JP you get nothing out of it. Also sucks for people who have hearing problems and non-native speakers.

 

[ForceStealer]

Tifa never said "pinch" in the original game in English, though. She said "bind."

 

[X-SOLDIER]

The only issue I have, with the Japanese audio-English subs in FFVII:R is that not all of the dialog is subtitled. In the demo there are at least three lines characters say that are left unsubtitled, so if you play in JP you get nothing out of it. Also sucks for people who have hearing problems and non-native speakers.

I'd be surprised if that's still the case by release. Typically any dialogue that gets recorded also gets the subtitle string added, but that's one of those things that's often in a state of flux during development depending on which language has lines for what, and whose i18n strings are completed based on which version of dialogue.



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[JBedford]

A sub-translation lacking adequate localisation isn't really an issue here. There are Japanese video games without English dubs that already have to deal with this. A translation doesn't have to avoid all localisation, and there's absolutely no need for TL notes. You'll always annoy someone with having too much/not enough localisation, but I'd never expect written honorifics or Japanese puns remaining intact.

That's still a full second "subtitle" track for any language that they're localizing it into

Aye, that's why I worded my first sentence the way I did to not refer to English specifically.

I can't make my own assumptions about costs and how long it would take/how easy it would be to do in tandem. I understand that this is completely unlikely and don't expect it at all. It would be interesting to know if there's any game that bothers, but I doubt it.

But speech/sub dissonance annoys me, and the trailers already feature... quite different dialogue. Like they're going all-in on the localised rewriting. Which is great, I just wouldn't want to play the game with the dub text displaying when I hear the Japanese lines. But maybe that's enough for the sub-not-dub people.

 

[SailorStarDust]

But speech/sub dissonance annoys me, and the trailers already feature... quite different dialogue. Like they're going all-in on the localised rewriting. Which is great, I just wouldn't want to play the game with the dub text displaying when I hear the Japanese lines. But maybe that's enough for the sub-not-dub people.

100% my concerns. It already grated me with things like AC, and even simple messing about in Dissidia NT. Seriously, English Squall a 'tude to him, when in Japanese he's moreso aloof. I'll still play Remake in Japanese, but the dissonance of what's being said vs the translation of say, AC, makes it hard to enjoy the subtitles. My skill level simply ain't enough to understand every single spoken thing, but certainly enough that I can gather when something's off. I'm also reminded of the edgy swearing in RE2 Remake ("I'll get you, you fucker!") vs JP Claire/Leon's (his seiyuu should sound familiar) more so angrily shouting.

That's why I seriously hope there's strength in numbers with fans sending Squenix a message so they can take the issue with Remake to heart. It's here, for those who didn't check out my Twitter links: https://support.na.square-enix.com/contact.php?id=18731&la=1

I mean, again, hopefully the issue of the trailer with Tifa's lines makes more sense in context of the final product, but uhh...Case in point, in my fiancé Zap's other Twitter example: "I'll protect you!" (towards Cloud? The traincar passengers?) morphs into "My turn!" That's seriously a different tone, IMO.

 

[Ite]

She says “I’ll protect you!” ?

List of most wanted mods has been increased by: 1

 

[ForceStealer]

Speaking of the AC fansubs, I remember one incredibly ponderous line that became much improved in the dub. When Rufus reveals that he has Jenova, I wish I could remember exactly how it went. It was something to the effect of "What else can be expected from those lacking in filial piety." Which, in the official English became the much punchier, "A good son would've known."

I also remember none of the fansubs could make heads or tails of whatever joke they were going for when Yazoo insults Reno in front of the Meteor monument. Even the official translation kind of struggled with it, iirc they altered the exchange entirely for ACC.

 

[busterbeam]

So glad I'm seeing this concern! I thought I was going crazy seeing no one else mention it other places online. I suppose there just aren't that many English speakers who know enough Japanese to get upset haha.

I've sent SE my thoughts, and I really hope they do consider adding 1-1 subtitles. I could grit my teeth and try to play the JP version if not, but I'm lazy and don't like reading tutorials/menus/UI in Japanese ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

That said, agreeing with Mr. Ite -- anything that ends up being an issue, this or otherwise, will be fixed by the game's rabid fanbase when it eventually comes to PC. Considering the mods that are available for the original, it's going to be incredible.

 

[Strangelove]

i can't think of a game with two subtitle tracks. capcom have started adding japanese tracks to their games that were originally only voiced in english (resident evil, devil may cry), but when i played the japanese demo of dmc5 with japanese audio and japanese subtitles they didn't match. which i understand in terms of extra work, but also you must have the script there to record the voices. just add those too. come on, my dudes.

i played the resident evil 2 remake (jp audio/jp subs) and iirc that did match? i don't recall at all now. but now i'm wondering if they have just one track there too and it matches the japanese audio instead. i only played the one shot demo so i couldn't test out different combinations and also i can't afford to buy it.

The only issue I have, with the Japanese audio-English subs in FFVII:R is that not all of the dialog is subtitled. In the demo there are at least three lines characters say that are left unsubtitled, so if you play in JP you get nothing out of it. Also sucks for people who have hearing problems and non-native speakers.

other games published by square enix like tomb raider have been good with the subtitles from an accessibility standpoint from what i've seen (which is the reboot tomb raider and rise of the tomb raider so not a lot), but that's developed by other studios and i don't think japanese audio-visual media has been very accommodating in the past. it might have started to improve in recent times but i remember it being really rare to find a dvd published in japan that had subtitles for the japanese audio, there didn't seem to be much concern for people who are hard of hearing or require subtitles? although games used to be better for that and the majority of audio tends to be subtitled, except for things like in-battle quotes or sometimes incidental/atmospheric dialogue like towns people in open world games.

if they took a cue from things like tomb raider it could include detailed options for what is subtitled so you can choose whether minor dialogue is subtitled or not?

I mean, again, hopefully the issue of the trailer with Tifa's lines makes more sense in context of the final product, but uhh...Case in point, in my fiancé Zap's other Twitter example: "I'll protect you!" (towards Cloud? The traincar passengers?) morphs into "My turn!" That's seriously a different tone, IMO.

i just watched the japanese trailer (i hadn't seen the full one, i only saw a shorter 1 minute one with a few different scenes and assumed that was the only one) and this one stuck out to me. but this is where only having trailers makes it hard to assess. does this line tie in to a piece of dialogue that's not in the trailer where maybe cloud and tifa talk about protecting and this is tifa saying that it's her turn to protect him?

 

[rimavelle]

other games published by square enix like tomb raider have been good with the subtitles
if they took a cue from things like tomb raider it could include detailed options for what is subtitled so you can choose whether minor dialogue is subtitled or not?

I woudn't judge SE based on games they publish. If I were, then after Deus Ex: Mankind Divided I would be left in tears (this game has subtitles that show 4 lines of dialog at once. FOUR! And are really small. Probably coz they have to fit so much text on screen at once...). Oh, and this game came out after Tomb Raider.
But if we look at FFXV... It tried it's best but there are still lines in battle that have no subs. I think almost all the time Noctis says something while warping it's left unsubtitled. I know it's not necessary to be able to play, but if they bothered to put it in, it would be nice for everyone to enjoy.
Lack of subs also makes for some hilarious misshearings.

 

[Lulcielid]

I think almost all the time Noctis says something while warping it's left unsubtitled. I know it's not necessary to be able to play, but if they bothered to put it in, it would be nice for everyone to enjoy.
Lack of subs also makes for some hilarious misshearings.

All Noctis says while warping are generic grunts/battle cries (not a single one of them is two words long), why would you need them being subtitled?

Again, do you NEED them?

 

[rimavelle]

All Noctis says while warping are generic grunts/battle cries (not a single one of them is two words long), why would you need them being subtitled?

Again, do you NEED them?

I wrote, in the part you quoted, that it is not necessary. But it adds climat. Also if you play in different language version and you hear someone speaking and you don't know what they are saying, you feel left out. In Remake they say nice, in-character things when switching from one character to another wich adds a lot to their relationship. If you can't hear them/don't understand then you are missing out.