ForceStealer
Double Growth
Hurray Mako talking Yu-Gi-Oh
Why?...Those were never Zack's last words in any iteration of Zack's death.
And to presume that it's suddenly going to be Zack's last words ignores the obvious context of Sephiroth's antagonism and direct reasoning he would want Cloud to "hold onto that hatred" or not forget him.
He needs Cloud to follow the Reunion. And he wants Cloud to aid in his ressurection and obtaining the Black Materia. Quoting Zack would either mean nothing to Cloud at best, or at worst alert Cloud to gaps in his memories and have him question things and potentially learn the truth in a way that would break Sephiroth's control over him.
Like, it would be in-universe and narratively foolish to try and shoehorn a tie in to Zack this early in the game. The plot has just started. Zack doesn't show up until the one moment Sephiroth himself decides to drop the bombshell regarding Cloud's fractured memories. There's not supposed to be any hint at all Zack even exists.
Shoehorning shit that has no business being in part 2 would scream "hey just in case gaiz let's throw it all in so there's no regrets!"
Sephiroth is one thing, since he's just as big a draw as Cloud and deserves top billing. But Zack literally isn't supposed to be shown to exist until the most dramatic moment in Cloud's personal story. Why would they do that and allude to something that's meant to be one of the biggest plot twists to players that make them question Cloud's identity?
It'd be like Sephiroth hinting that Aerith might meet an untimely demise if she keeps up following Cloud. It gives up the plot in the cheapest and dumbest way possible.
Well the best way to get authenticity and accuracy is to not transliterate and give a localization.
One obviously shouldn't make shit up, but to make a foreign language's translation not only make sense but sound like natural and in-character dialogue, a translator has to *localize* and flourish the line so it reflects not just the linguistic meaning, but the contextual, in-character and narrative meaning.
An example.
"Aibou" means "partner" in Japanese and Atem and Yugi call each other this in Yu-Gi-Oh Duel Monsters all the time. A translator could correctly translate this phrase as "partner" and be accurate in the translation of the dialogue... However calling someone "partner" in English carries a far different context and assumption of intimacy than "aibou" does in Japanese.
Translating the line as "buddy", "wing-man", "ally", "bestie" or some other term or nickname that conveys personal platonic and friendly closeness would be a far more accurate contextually in terms of the narrative and characters portrayed.
I feel you are presuming quite a lot yourself here. The plot hasn't started at all yet. Sephiroth hasn't made any moves at all. He will continue to not make any moves until by chance a Sephiroth clone would find himself in a room with President Shinra who will tell him about his expectation that the Promised Land will turn out to be a place of high mako concentration. That very night, the President will die, the blood trail will lead up to the cell of that Sephiroth Clone and Sephiroth will declare his intention to seek the Promised Land to Palmer and Jenova will escape the tank she has stored in for five years. These things weren't planned days in advance. Moreover, Sephiroth goes to the Citadel of the Ancients for more then just the Black Materia, he still needs to transfer their knowledge as we see him doing when we get there. Sephiroth isn't suppose to know everything about everything yet.
Cloud
He shouldn't be able to find the Promised Land.
Sephiroth appears hovering above the hole.
Sephiroth
...Ah, but I have.
I'm far superior to the Ancients.
I became a traveler of the Lifestream and gained the knowledge and wisdom of the Ancients.
I also gained the knowledge and wisdom of those after the extinction of the Ancients.
And soon, I will create the future.
I dunno why Sephiroth is dismissed as "one thing" here. Zack is as big a draw as Cloud or Tifa or Sephiroth. The remake is being made in an era where that is a thing.
I find this a false equivalence to highest degree. Sephiroth, or the projection in Cloud's head using Zack's last words would be him cruelly referencing a past event that Cloud was present for and his subconcious is aware of. Aerith's death is a future event that neither Sephiroth nor Cloud have any reason to suspect will occur on any level yet.
Anyway "and don't forget me" is already an obvious reference to Sephiroth's line in Advent Children, even though that will probably not happen in the Remake's continuity and we all know it.
Taken on it's own, if we pretend that Cloud's identity crisis isn't a thing or that Sephiroth wouldn't want to risk Cloud even introspecting to any degree, why on Earth would Cloud forget Sephiroth? He was his childhood hero for years and years and burned down his hometown and killed his mother. Forgetting Sephiroth is not an eventuality that Sephiroth is worried about. But Cloud has forgotten a great deal and 99% of the audience that will hear this line is aware of that. We can't pretend this game is made a vacuum. People know what Sephiroth is referring to with that line. And some level, so does Cloud.
I wasn't pursuing Sephiroth.
I was being summoned by Sephiroth.
All the anger and hatred I bore him, made it impossible for me to ever forget him. That and what he gave me.
i am too tired to make proper points but i am reading through the yugioh manga at the moment and now every time i see 'aibou' i am going to be thinking 'wing-man'"Aibou" ... "wing-man"
Actually Sephiroth did plan to use Meteor to become a God in advance. This was knowledge he was aware of pre-FFVII. When he died, his spirit traveled the Lifestream and learned of the Cetra, The Promised Land, the Temple of the Ancients, the Black Materia and it's from all that knowledge he formulated his plan from within the Lifestream over the course of 5 years. All of this was plotted while he utilized Jenova to regenerate and he used the Reunion to further both his regeneration and to acquire the Black Materia. He knew where the "Promised Land" all along. He was biding his time at the center of it.
And I don't know what you mean by "transfer their knowledge." He's very much aware of it all, and is only there because he wishes to obtain the Black Materia and manipulate Cloud as his unwilling accomplice.
Nothing in the game states or alludes to Sephiroth somehow learning of the Promised Land upon hearing President Shinra speak of it, or formulating his plan based on that disclosure. He was aware of the knowledge of the Cetra and used it to his advantage to take over the planet. His use of the Jenova Reunion was all part of that.
Zack's present popularity is not equivalent to Cloud or Sephiroth's. He may be really popular but there's a reason why Sephiroth and Cloud were the first two characters featured in the promotional artwork and marketing of this Remake. And it's also pretty clear Sephiroth's entire appearance in this first part of the Remake is largely due to how memorable and solidified he is in FFVII. Saying he's as big a draw as Cloud and Sephiroth just flies in the face of the number of appearances the two have outside of FFVII, not mention the marketing, merchandising, and cameo appearances that Cloud and Sephiroth have amassed over time. Zack's popular but not so much he's appeared in Smash, unrelated FF titles or has been featured twice as an optional superboss in an entirely different game series.
In-universe they're not the same thing, but thematically in terms of the writing of the plot, both would be massive tells regarding the two biggest plot twists of FFVII. Unless the Remake is deeply layering and hiding a presently unknown line of the remake's depiction of Zack and his death, there's no way for the game to reference Zack this early and not have it ruin the punch of discovering the truth about Cloud and his memories.
I don't know how you can on one hand say the words "and don't forget me" is the Remake's attempt to reference Advent Children while simultaneously claim the entry won't have it happen in the Remake's undefined continuity. That's a duplicitous mixed message from their end.
And there's simply no real "continuity" regarding the remake where Advent Children is concerned. Advent Children is a story of Cloud and the others after the events of FFVII. This is game is an expanded remake of FFVII, and unless something here radically changes that fundamentally puts the Remake at odds with Advent Children's existence or Square suddenly announces a new continuation of the Compilation of FFVII based on the Remake of FFVII that will fundamentally re-do the plots of each entry, there's literally no reason to question or speculate on Advent Children regarding this. Because it's irrelevant. The game is a remake of FFVII on its own, not a remake meant to reboot the Compilation. Furthermore, why would the creators or Square Enix themselves purposefully erase or displace Advent Children as the story post-FFVII when they're literally using it's existence and context as a story post-FFVII to market, depict, and commercialize FFVII and its continuity for its characters?
Sephiroth would be "worried" about Cloud forgetting him, because Cloud's memory and hatred of him is the hook that's pulls him along the path of the Reunion. Cloud's hatred and obsession over Sephiroth is what allows Sephiroth to manipulate Cloud and draw him closer and closer to where he actually is.
Those are Cloud's own words. That right there outlines why Sephiroth would want Cloud to never forget him and hate him.
By actively stirring that feeling of hatred Sephiroth is deepening his hold over Cloud. It's all simply a matter of ensuring his plan comes to fruition. The fact Cloud doesn't remember everything is not important, he only needs to remember his hate for Sephiroth for what he did. And no, Cloud shouldn't remember anything about Zack, because the entire cornerstone of Cloud's false persona lies on having absolutely no idea Zack actually exists. His mind is being controlled by Jenova cells, so why would some part of him know who he is? Cloud doesn't even know who he himself is, so how would he be aware of a friend who's life he's acting out?
We do not see Sephiroth at the Northern Crater prior to the start of the FFVII, nor do we get any chance to get an idea of the rate at which he is reconstituting his body and thus how long he has been at it. Saying he was there all along is a guess.
Well I'm just logically going off the events that happened. If Cloud could have been completely puppeted and made to comply with his commands, there were several points in the story Sephiroth could have sabotaged Shinra and the party's efforts by having Cloud act as his alter ego and then make him forget it even happened.
Mako said:After Aerith dies, Cloud accurately deduced that the closer he gets to Sephiroth, the more another side in him awakens that he can't control. It scares him and he rightly decides he's a threat if he continues on. Granted, he makes the courageous choice to carry on so he finds out the truth, but Cloud is correct that he's a compromised Sephiroth Copy. Sephiroth can make Cloud do anything. And that's because Cloud is so close to him and almost completely detached from his ego.
I don't think it is the most logical.Mako said:Granted nothing outright says this but between Cloud vocalizing his fear of himself, Sephiroth's actions FFVII and what we know of why Cloud was taken over in the first place, it's the most logical conclusion.
Almost everything Sephiroth does in the original game involves trolling Cloud for essentially no reason: freeing him in Midgar; letting him and the rest of Avalanche live from one day to the next; letting them lay hands on the Black Materia -- the key to his plan for godhood -- twice just so he could force or torture Cloud into handing it to him; leaving Aerith alive long enough to cast Holy just so that Cloud could be forced to kill her instead; again, constantly letting Avalanche members draw breath, even after rendering half of the team unconscious and defenseless in the Whirlwind Maze (while simultaneously tricking another member of the team into bringing the Black Materia to Cloud).Mako said:Sephiroth's actions in the trailer make the most sense when viewed through this perspective since he obviously is going to do his best to make Cloud his puppet. I personally don't believe Sephiroth enjoys trolling Cloud for no reason. That's more akin to the Kingdom Hearts nonsense than what he usually does
Even without that, he could have killed them all at literally any moment he wanted to. He had no need to sabotage them. He didn't fear them, and he actually wanted them to succeed up to a point.
I think you might be overestimating the role of distance in this matter. Gongaga is pretty darn far from the Sleeping Forest, yet Sephiroth casually invaded Cloud's dreamscape when Aerith contacted him.
I don't think it is the most logical.
Almost everything Sephiroth does in the original game involves trolling Cloud for essentially no reason: freeing him in Midgar; letting him and the rest of Avalanche live from one day to the next; letting them lay hands on the Black Materia -- the key to his plan for godhood -- twice just so he could force or torture Cloud into handing it to him; leaving Aerith alive long enough to cast Holy just so that Cloud could be forced to kill her instead; again, constantly letting Avalanche members draw breath, even after rendering half of the team unconscious and defenseless in the Whirlwind Maze (while simultaneously tricking another member of the team into bringing the Black Materia to Cloud).
Sephiroth is all about trolling Cloud.
That any time Seph chose to flip the switch he would have gotten a result like that one at the temple.Okay... So what do you think is?
Mako said:All those instances serve as points that either draw Cloud further into pursuing him and strengthening the pull of the Reunion, or letting him and his team do his dirty work while he regenerates.
There's no more grand purpose to it, though, than that he hates Cloud. It's like the trash he talks in their battle in AC/C. There's no purpose to any of it but to troll Cloud and make him suffer with the thought of his loved ones dying at Sephiroth's hands next.Mako said:And Sephiroth's emnity for Cloud motivates his attitude and desire to make Cloud suffer for hurting and killing him. Sephiroth suffered a very real blow to his pride that time.
I mean, that's purposeful. It's trolling in a sense but there's a very real reason and purpose behind it.
That any time Seph chose to flip the switch he would have gotten a result like that one at the temple.
Cloud hated him just as much at the beginning of the game as he did at the temple. His identity was just as muddled. And he would have been just as confused to find himself doing things he couldn't control.
But he didn't need them to do his dirty work (Cloud even says as much inside the temple), and who cares about going all the to the northern continent for the Reunion? Jenova's body could have just eaten Cloud right there in his cell in the Shin-Ra building and been done with it.
There's no more grand purpose to it, though, than that he hates Cloud. It's like the trash he talks in their battle in AC/C. There's no purpose to any of it but to troll Cloud and make him suffer with the thought of his loved ones dying at Sephiroth's hands next.
Got an email back super late last night. "We appreciate your feedback. It will be forwarded to my superiors. Thank you for taking the time to contact us today and we look forward to your opinions of our upcoming titles."
Looks like they're not just throwing feedback into the trash, so worth contacting if you care!