Japanese audio track subtitles: concerns

Roger

Novice DM
AKA
Minato
#52
Why?...Those were never Zack's last words in any iteration of Zack's death.
He only had last parting words for Cloud in one iteration for his death. They want the Remake to be entirely it's own thing. Yet at the same time Zack is one of the most popular Final Fantasy characters and straight up going back to the completely ignoble death of the original doesn't seem likely.

"Cloud, give me your help. Run. Escape, live on... and don't forget me."

Is about what i expect him to say if he doesn't parrot the living legacy spiel verbatim (which I already don't expect anyway)

And to presume that it's suddenly going to be Zack's last words ignores the obvious context of Sephiroth's antagonism and direct reasoning he would want Cloud to "hold onto that hatred" or not forget him.

He needs Cloud to follow the Reunion. And he wants Cloud to aid in his ressurection and obtaining the Black Materia. Quoting Zack would either mean nothing to Cloud at best, or at worst alert Cloud to gaps in his memories and have him question things and potentially learn the truth in a way that would break Sephiroth's control over him.

Like, it would be in-universe and narratively foolish to try and shoehorn a tie in to Zack this early in the game. The plot has just started. Zack doesn't show up until the one moment Sephiroth himself decides to drop the bombshell regarding Cloud's fractured memories. There's not supposed to be any hint at all Zack even exists.
I feel you are presuming quite a lot yourself here. The plot hasn't started at all yet. Sephiroth hasn't made any moves at all. He will continue to not make any moves until by chance a Sephiroth clone would find himself in a room with President Shinra who will tell him about his expectation that the Promised Land will turn out to be a place of high mako concentration. That very night, the President will die, the blood trail will lead up to the cell of that Sephiroth Clone and Sephiroth will declare his intention to seek the Promised Land to Palmer and Jenova will escape the tank she has stored in for five years. These things weren't planned days in advance. Moreover, Sephiroth goes to the Citadel of the Ancients for more then just the Black Materia, he still needs to transfer their knowledge as we see him doing when we get there. Sephiroth isn't suppose to know everything about everything yet.

He is however in Cloud's head and wants him miserable regardless of what role he can eventually play for Sephiroth.

Shoehorning shit that has no business being in part 2 would scream "hey just in case gaiz let's throw it all in so there's no regrets!"

Sephiroth is one thing, since he's just as big a draw as Cloud and deserves top billing. But Zack literally isn't supposed to be shown to exist until the most dramatic moment in Cloud's personal story. Why would they do that and allude to something that's meant to be one of the biggest plot twists to players that make them question Cloud's identity?
I dunno why Sephiroth is dismissed as "one thing" here. Zack is as big a draw as Cloud or Tifa or Sephiroth. The remake is being made in an era where that is a thing.

It'd be like Sephiroth hinting that Aerith might meet an untimely demise if she keeps up following Cloud. It gives up the plot in the cheapest and dumbest way possible.
I find this a false equivalence to highest degree. Sephiroth, or the projection in Cloud's head using Zack's last words would be him cruelly referencing a past event that Cloud was present for and his subconcious is aware of. Aerith's death is a future event that neither Sephiroth nor Cloud have any reason to suspect will occur on any level yet.

Anyway "and don't forget me" is already an obvious reference to Sephiroth's line in Advent Children, even though that will probably not happen in the Remake's continuity and we all know it. Taken on it's own, if we pretend that Cloud's identity crisis isn't a thing or that Sephiroth wouldn't want to risk Cloud even introspecting to any degree, why on Earth would Cloud forget Sephiroth? He was his childhood hero for years and years and burned down his hometown and killed his mother. Forgetting Sephiroth is not an eventuality that Sephiroth is worried about. But Cloud has forgotten a great deal and 99% of the audience that will hear this line is aware of that. We can't pretend this game is made a vacuum. People know what Sephiroth is referring to with that line. And some level, so does Cloud.
 

rimavelle

Pro Adventurer
AKA
rima
#53
Well the best way to get authenticity and accuracy is to not transliterate and give a localization. :mon:

One obviously shouldn't make shit up, but to make a foreign language's translation not only make sense but sound like natural and in-character dialogue, a translator has to *localize* and flourish the line so it reflects not just the linguistic meaning, but the contextual, in-character and narrative meaning.

An example.

"Aibou" means "partner" in Japanese and Atem and Yugi call each other this in Yu-Gi-Oh Duel Monsters all the time. A translator could correctly translate this phrase as "partner" and be accurate in the translation of the dialogue... However calling someone "partner" in English carries a far different context and assumption of intimacy than "aibou" does in Japanese.

Translating the line as "buddy", "wing-man", "ally", "bestie" or some other term or nickname that conveys personal platonic and friendly closeness would be a far more accurate contextually in terms of the narrative and characters portrayed.
One guy once said that translations are either faithful or beautiful. Faithful aren't beautiful, and beautiful aren't faithful.
(Or was he talking about women?)

Anyway~ I totally agree with the aibou part. Nothing weird about two guys, who like leather and collars to refer to themselfs per "my partner", right?

Also I feel some people here forgot we are talking about separate set of subtitles for those who want to play with JP audio, not trying to kill localisation ^ ^"
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
#54
I feel you are presuming quite a lot yourself here. The plot hasn't started at all yet. Sephiroth hasn't made any moves at all. He will continue to not make any moves until by chance a Sephiroth clone would find himself in a room with President Shinra who will tell him about his expectation that the Promised Land will turn out to be a place of high mako concentration. That very night, the President will die, the blood trail will lead up to the cell of that Sephiroth Clone and Sephiroth will declare his intention to seek the Promised Land to Palmer and Jenova will escape the tank she has stored in for five years. These things weren't planned days in advance. Moreover, Sephiroth goes to the Citadel of the Ancients for more then just the Black Materia, he still needs to transfer their knowledge as we see him doing when we get there. Sephiroth isn't suppose to know everything about everything yet.
Actually Sephiroth did plan to use Meteor to become a God in advance. This was knowledge he was aware of pre-FFVII. When he died, his spirit traveled the Lifestream and learned of the Cetra, The Promised Land, the Temple of the Ancients, the Black Materia and it's from all that knowledge he formulated his plan from within the Lifestream over the course of 5 years. All of this was plotted while he utilized Jenova to regenerate and he used the Reunion to further both his regeneration and to acquire the Black Materia. He knew where the "Promised Land" all along. He was biding his time at the center of it.

And I don't know what you mean by "transfer their knowledge." He's very much aware of it all, and is only there because he wishes to obtain the Black Materia and manipulate Cloud as his unwilling accomplice.

Cloud
He shouldn't be able to find the Promised Land.

Sephiroth appears hovering above the hole.

Sephiroth
...Ah, but I have.
I'm far superior to the Ancients.
I became a traveler of the Lifestream and gained the knowledge and wisdom of the Ancients.
I also gained the knowledge and wisdom of those after the extinction of the Ancients.
And soon, I will create the future.
Nothing in the game states or alludes to Sephiroth somehow learning of the Promised Land upon hearing President Shinra speak of it, or formulating his plan based on that disclosure. He was aware of the knowledge of the Cetra and used it to his advantage to take over the planet. His use of the Jenova Reunion was all part of that.

I dunno why Sephiroth is dismissed as "one thing" here. Zack is as big a draw as Cloud or Tifa or Sephiroth. The remake is being made in an era where that is a thing.
Zack's present popularity is not equivalent to Cloud or Sephiroth's. He may be really popular but there's a reason why Sephiroth and Cloud were the first two characters featured in the promotional artwork and marketing of this Remake. And it's also pretty clear Sephiroth's entire appearance in this first part of the Remake is largely due to how memorable and solidified he is in FFVII. Saying he's as big a draw as Cloud and Sephiroth just flies in the face of the number of appearances the two have outside of FFVII, not mention the marketing, merchandising, and cameo appearances that Cloud and Sephiroth have amassed over time. Zack's popular but not so much he's appeared in Smash, unrelated FF titles or has been featured twice as an optional superboss in an entirely different game series.

I find this a false equivalence to highest degree. Sephiroth, or the projection in Cloud's head using Zack's last words would be him cruelly referencing a past event that Cloud was present for and his subconcious is aware of. Aerith's death is a future event that neither Sephiroth nor Cloud have any reason to suspect will occur on any level yet.
In-universe they're not the same thing, but thematically in terms of the writing of the plot, both would be massive tells regarding the two biggest plot twists of FFVII. Unless the Remake is deeply layering and hiding a presently unknown line of the remake's depiction of Zack and his death, there's no way for the game to reference Zack this early and not have it ruin the punch of discovering the truth about Cloud and his memories.


Anyway "and don't forget me" is already an obvious reference to Sephiroth's line in Advent Children, even though that will probably not happen in the Remake's continuity and we all know it.
I don't know how you can on one hand say the words "and don't forget me" is the Remake's attempt to reference Advent Children while simultaneously claim the entry won't have it happen in the Remake's undefined continuity. That's a duplicitous mixed message from their end.

And there's simply no real "continuity" regarding the remake where Advent Children is concerned. Advent Children is a story of Cloud and the others after the events of FFVII. This is game is an expanded remake of FFVII, and unless something here radically changes that fundamentally puts the Remake at odds with Advent Children's existence or Square suddenly announces a new continuation of the Compilation of FFVII based on the Remake of FFVII that will fundamentally re-do the plots of each entry, there's literally no reason to question or speculate on Advent Children regarding this. Because it's irrelevant. The game is a remake of FFVII on its own, not a remake meant to reboot the Compilation. Furthermore, why would the creators or Square Enix themselves purposefully erase or displace Advent Children as the story post-FFVII when they're literally using it's existence and context as a story post-FFVII to market, depict, and commercialize FFVII and its continuity for its characters?

Taken on it's own, if we pretend that Cloud's identity crisis isn't a thing or that Sephiroth wouldn't want to risk Cloud even introspecting to any degree, why on Earth would Cloud forget Sephiroth? He was his childhood hero for years and years and burned down his hometown and killed his mother. Forgetting Sephiroth is not an eventuality that Sephiroth is worried about. But Cloud has forgotten a great deal and 99% of the audience that will hear this line is aware of that. We can't pretend this game is made a vacuum. People know what Sephiroth is referring to with that line. And some level, so does Cloud.
Sephiroth would be "worried" about Cloud forgetting him, because Cloud's memory and hatred of him is the hook that's pulls him along the path of the Reunion. Cloud's hatred and obsession over Sephiroth is what allows Sephiroth to manipulate Cloud and draw him closer and closer to where he actually is.

I wasn't pursuing Sephiroth.
I was being summoned by Sephiroth.
All the anger and hatred I bore him, made it impossible for me to ever forget him. That and what he gave me.
Those are Cloud's own words. That right there outlines why Sephiroth would want Cloud to never forget him and hate him.

By actively stirring that feeling of hatred Sephiroth is deepening his hold over Cloud. It's all simply a matter of ensuring his plan comes to fruition. The fact Cloud doesn't remember everything is not important, he only needs to remember his hate for Sephiroth for what he did. And no, Cloud shouldn't remember anything about Zack, because the entire cornerstone of Cloud's false persona lies on having absolutely no idea Zack actually exists. His mind is being controlled by Jenova cells, so why would some part of him know who he is? Cloud doesn't even know who he himself is, so how would he be aware of a friend who's life he's acting out?
 

Ryuman

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Pointlessname, Pointer
#55
Sephiroth can use Zack's words to give rise to emotions Cloud doesn't fully understand, knowing full well he will block it out in an emotional rage. Attack his fledgling unconscious mind, agitate Cloud without him realising, confuse him.
That is all still assuming that's what the line is about, anyway.
 

Roger

Novice DM
AKA
Minato
#58
Actually Sephiroth did plan to use Meteor to become a God in advance. This was knowledge he was aware of pre-FFVII. When he died, his spirit traveled the Lifestream and learned of the Cetra, The Promised Land, the Temple of the Ancients, the Black Materia and it's from all that knowledge he formulated his plan from within the Lifestream over the course of 5 years. All of this was plotted while he utilized Jenova to regenerate and he used the Reunion to further both his regeneration and to acquire the Black Materia. He knew where the "Promised Land" all along. He was biding his time at the center of it.

And I don't know what you mean by "transfer their knowledge." He's very much aware of it all, and is only there because he wishes to obtain the Black Materia and manipulate Cloud as his unwilling accomplice.
Ancients1.PNG

Ancients2.PNG

Ancients3.PNG

This to me tells us Sephiroth was still learning as the game was going on. If wanna believe this was just a pointless exercise Sephiroth was doing to kill time before Cloud extracted the Black Materia so be it. I disagree.

Nothing in the game states or alludes to Sephiroth somehow learning of the Promised Land upon hearing President Shinra speak of it, or formulating his plan based on that disclosure. He was aware of the knowledge of the Cetra and used it to his advantage to take over the planet. His use of the Jenova Reunion was all part of that.
I see a clear cause and effect between the crew learning about the Promised Land and Jenova after five years making an escape it could have done at any time before then to go the Promised Land upon our arrival. You wanna believe it's blind coincidence that Sephiroth just happened to ready that exact night, be my guest.

Zack's present popularity is not equivalent to Cloud or Sephiroth's. He may be really popular but there's a reason why Sephiroth and Cloud were the first two characters featured in the promotional artwork and marketing of this Remake. And it's also pretty clear Sephiroth's entire appearance in this first part of the Remake is largely due to how memorable and solidified he is in FFVII. Saying he's as big a draw as Cloud and Sephiroth just flies in the face of the number of appearances the two have outside of FFVII, not mention the marketing, merchandising, and cameo appearances that Cloud and Sephiroth have amassed over time. Zack's popular but not so much he's appeared in Smash, unrelated FF titles or has been featured twice as an optional superboss in an entirely different game series.
Tifa was held back as the big reveal for the E3 that the fanbase went crazy about, exactly because she hasn't been quite as oversaturated as Cloud and Sephiroth. Zack's the next character they have a chance to use to great effect. I don't think they'll wait till part 3 or 4.

In-universe they're not the same thing, but thematically in terms of the writing of the plot, both would be massive tells regarding the two biggest plot twists of FFVII. Unless the Remake is deeply layering and hiding a presently unknown line of the remake's depiction of Zack and his death, there's no way for the game to reference Zack this early and not have it ruin the punch of discovering the truth about Cloud and his memories.
Sephiroth is here because the same punch that was achieved by keeping him hidden can't be achieved in 2019.

I don't know how you can on one hand say the words "and don't forget me" is the Remake's attempt to reference Advent Children while simultaneously claim the entry won't have it happen in the Remake's undefined continuity. That's a duplicitous mixed message from their end.

And there's simply no real "continuity" regarding the remake where Advent Children is concerned. Advent Children is a story of Cloud and the others after the events of FFVII. This is game is an expanded remake of FFVII, and unless something here radically changes that fundamentally puts the Remake at odds with Advent Children's existence or Square suddenly announces a new continuation of the Compilation of FFVII based on the Remake of FFVII that will fundamentally re-do the plots of each entry, there's literally no reason to question or speculate on Advent Children regarding this. Because it's irrelevant. The game is a remake of FFVII on its own, not a remake meant to reboot the Compilation. Furthermore, why would the creators or Square Enix themselves purposefully erase or displace Advent Children as the story post-FFVII when they're literally using it's existence and context as a story post-FFVII to market, depict, and commercialize FFVII and its continuity for its characters?
The echoing of the sentiment that he doesn't want to be forgotten is for audience. We remember that line regardless.

Sephiroth would be "worried" about Cloud forgetting him, because Cloud's memory and hatred of him is the hook that's pulls him along the path of the Reunion. Cloud's hatred and obsession over Sephiroth is what allows Sephiroth to manipulate Cloud and draw him closer and closer to where he actually is.

Those are Cloud's own words. That right there outlines why Sephiroth would want Cloud to never forget him and hate him.

By actively stirring that feeling of hatred Sephiroth is deepening his hold over Cloud. It's all simply a matter of ensuring his plan comes to fruition. The fact Cloud doesn't remember everything is not important, he only needs to remember his hate for Sephiroth for what he did. And no, Cloud shouldn't remember anything about Zack, because the entire cornerstone of Cloud's false persona lies on having absolutely no idea Zack actually exists. His mind is being controlled by Jenova cells, so why would some part of him know who he is? Cloud doesn't even know who he himself is, so how would he be aware of a friend who's life he's acting out?
Cloud's false persona is created by the Jenova inside him. It is in control. He's gonna follow his Reunion Instinct regardless. Hate has nothing to do with it. The other Sephiroth clones don't need hate as motivator. Cloud hates Sephiroth enough that up until the revelation you quoted, he was able to fool himself into thinking that this was the reason he was following Sephiroth. It isn't. And I disagree that there was ever a danger that Cloud would forget that he hated Sephiroth. Worried that Cloud will get himself killed in Midgar, maybe, worried that he'll actually be able to move on with his life free of hate? No chance.

And Cloud's false person isn't the one stabbed Sephiroth and chucked him into the Mako Reactor. The real Cloud, the voice in his head, the one that later on wants Cloud to talk to Tifa about why they didn't meet up at Nibelheim more, the kid that remembers everything including Zack, is the one Sephiroth actually wants to punish for getting in his way and is presumably in there in the Remake and can hear Sephiroth's taunts loud and clear.

A lot of this stuff may go differently in the remake. It admittedly does seem like Sephiroth absorbed the knowledge of the Ancients twice over. The voice in Cloud's head seems to be supplemented by images of Sephiroth in the Remake thus far. Maybe the treatment of Zack in the one thing that'll be the one thing they'll keep beat by beat the same as the original game, I don't think that likely we'll see.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
#59
Sephiroth visiting The Temple of the Ancients wasn't a waste of his time, Sephiroth used that excursion to first obtain the Black Materia and solidify his control over Cloud at that time. That was the first time Sephiroth demonstrated direct control over Cloud and he forced him to hand over the Black Materia. It was all part of the goal of gaining the Black Materia, tightening his grip on Cloud's mind and luring him closer to the Reunion.

Sephiroth's regeneration of his body is situated at the center of the Northern Crater and he has absorbed the knowledge of the Cetra. Him being at that spot couldn't be coincidence, given his knowledge. He clearly is aware of the Northern Crater being the figurative Promised Land due to its abundance of spirit energy and being the place he could activate Meteor.

So he clearly knew of this spot before President Shinra voiced his plans for Neo-Midgar. I think the real reason he chose the moment Cloud and the others were in the Shinra building to awaken Jenova and have it kill the president, was so he could make the strongest impact on Cloud and let him know he was back. He wanted Cloud to witness with his own eyes Sephiroth's alleged return and murder so he would feel even more motivated to chase after him.

Tifa is very popular and so is Zack, I'm not disputing that. Im just saying they aren't on the same level as Cloud snd Sephiroth. They're "overestimated" because they're guaranteed to generate hype just by their existence. They're easy to throw out there. Zack is a special case of being something like a hidden character who is popular but popular due to his extremely important place in FFVII's plot. When it's his turn to be revealed he'll probably be teased before being outright revealed. They don't want to ruin the surprise for new players.

As for the amount of free will Cloud has, I don't think Sephiroth was legitimately afraid Cloud would move on from him. That's not what I meant. I'm saying that by strengthening Cloud's hatred for him, Sephiroth deepened his control over Cloud and it allowed him greater command over his body and mind. Sephiroth wasn't able to just assume direct control over Cloud before. That level of manipulation took time as Cloud delved deeper down the rabbit hole and moved closer to Sephiroth.

Remember, Cloud originally was a complete Sephiroth Copy with no sense of self. It was only through being around Zack and seeing his death that Cloud awakened. Then the Jenova is cells reconstructed Cloud's persona and assumed control. Cloud had some semblance of awareness and wasn't a total puppet but Sephiroth had to strengthen his hold over Cloud so he would eventually snap and be willing to just obediently hand over the Black Materia while everyone else begged him not to.

Sephiroth wants to break Cloud down completely by eroding his sense of self. By strengthening Cloud' s hatred for him, he achieves that purpose. If Cloud's too busy focusing on his hatred for Sephiroth, he's too busy to listen to the inner voice of his true self trying to make him question the holes in his memories.

In regards to Zack, I hope they do stay true to the story of the game and use Zack properly. It'd be a great disservice to new players and fans if they spoil the impact of his character for blatant, shallow fan service and promotion.
 

Roger

Novice DM
AKA
Minato
#60
I don't know what appearing in front of him and asking him to live, leave and not forger achieves towards deeping Cloud's hatred in ways the death of his mother, massacre and burning of his villages and bringing Tifa to the brink of death failed to instill in him.

If this scene should be taken as evidence that Sephiroth has already decided upon Cloud having the role of Black Materia carrier by the Bombing Mission, yet Jenova is still deciding to stay dormant at Shinra HQ waiting for the right time to start leading on Cloud then I have to assume Aerith's capture, AVALANCHE's mission to save her and their subsequent capture by the Turks was also orchstrated by Sephiroth, before Aerith and Cloud had even met.

We do not see Sephiroth at the Northern Crater prior to the start of the FFVII, nor do we get any chance to get an idea of the rate at which he is reconstituting his body and thus how long he has been at it. Saying he was there all along is a guess.

We do not see Sephiroth try to assume direct control of Cloud before then. That doesn't mean he couldn't. Cloud hates Sephiroth as much as ever at the Forgotten City and is still in denial about what he is. But he doesn't attack Aerith despite pressure from Sephiroth. The scene at the Citadel didn't strengthen Sephiroth's control over Cloud, just made him more aware of it. It helped with breaking him, it did not help with directly controlling him. Sephiroth's ability to directly control Cloud's body is never greater then the first time he shows us he can do it. There's nothing that suggesting it was weaker at any point before then.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
#61
@Makoeyes987
That's a lot of (mostly) headcanon there, bruh. Not that it doesn't have the stink of possibility on it, mind you, but it's just as possible that Seph could have taken control of Cloud at any point he decided to flip the switch.

We do not see Sephiroth at the Northern Crater prior to the start of the FFVII, nor do we get any chance to get an idea of the rate at which he is reconstituting his body and thus how long he has been at it. Saying he was there all along is a guess.
Well, going by the Ultimanias, he's been reconstituting himself at the crater for the whole of the five years since he died the first time. Whether the remake sticks to that, who knows.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
#62
Well I'm just logically going off the events that happened. If Cloud could have been completely puppeted and made to comply with his commands, there were several points in the story Sephiroth could have sabotaged Shinra and the party's efforts by having Cloud act as his alter ego and then make him forget it even happened.

Instead, Sephiroth's influence steadily increases the more Cloud gets fixated on Sephy and drawn closer to him. Furthermore, the more Cloud digs in and denies his past the more mental he becomes.

So it kinda shows that the deeper Cloud goes down the rabbit hole of his false memories and in pursuing Sephiroth, the more Cloud becomes a puppet. Which culminates with him handing over the Black Materia, attacking Aerith, nearly killing Aerith and finally giving Sephiroth the Black Materia for good.

After Aerith dies, Cloud accurately deduced that the closer he gets to Sephiroth, the more another side in him awakens that he can't control. It scares him and he rightly decides he's a threat if he continues on. Granted, he makes the courageous choice to carry on so he finds out the truth, but Cloud is correct that he's a compromised Sephiroth Copy. Sephiroth can make Cloud do anything. And that's because Cloud is so close to him and almost completely detached from his ego.

Granted nothing outright says this but between Cloud vocalizing his fear of himself, Sephiroth's actions FFVII and what we know of why Cloud was taken over in the first place, it's the most logical conclusion.

Sephiroth's actions in the trailer make the most sense when viewed through this perspective since he obviously is going to do his best to make Cloud his puppet. I personally don't believe Sephiroth enjoys trolling Cloud for no reason. That's more akin to the Kingdom Hearts nonsense than what he usually does :mon:
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
#63
Well I'm just logically going off the events that happened. If Cloud could have been completely puppeted and made to comply with his commands, there were several points in the story Sephiroth could have sabotaged Shinra and the party's efforts by having Cloud act as his alter ego and then make him forget it even happened.
Even without that, he could have killed them all at literally any moment he wanted to. He had no need to sabotage them. He didn't fear them, and he actually wanted them to succeed up to a point.

Mako said:
After Aerith dies, Cloud accurately deduced that the closer he gets to Sephiroth, the more another side in him awakens that he can't control. It scares him and he rightly decides he's a threat if he continues on. Granted, he makes the courageous choice to carry on so he finds out the truth, but Cloud is correct that he's a compromised Sephiroth Copy. Sephiroth can make Cloud do anything. And that's because Cloud is so close to him and almost completely detached from his ego.
I think you might be overestimating the role of distance in this matter. Gongaga is pretty darn far from the Sleeping Forest, yet Sephiroth casually invaded Cloud's dreamscape when Aerith contacted him.

Mako said:
Granted nothing outright says this but between Cloud vocalizing his fear of himself, Sephiroth's actions FFVII and what we know of why Cloud was taken over in the first place, it's the most logical conclusion.
I don't think it is the most logical.

Mako said:
Sephiroth's actions in the trailer make the most sense when viewed through this perspective since he obviously is going to do his best to make Cloud his puppet. I personally don't believe Sephiroth enjoys trolling Cloud for no reason. That's more akin to the Kingdom Hearts nonsense than what he usually does :mon:
Almost everything Sephiroth does in the original game involves trolling Cloud for essentially no reason: freeing him in Midgar; letting him and the rest of Avalanche live from one day to the next; letting them lay hands on the Black Materia -- the key to his plan for godhood -- twice just so he could force or torture Cloud into handing it to him; leaving Aerith alive long enough to cast Holy just so that Cloud could be forced to kill her instead; again, constantly letting Avalanche members draw breath, even after rendering half of the team unconscious and defenseless in the Whirlwind Maze (while simultaneously tricking another member of the team into bringing the Black Materia to Cloud).

Sephiroth is all about trolling Cloud.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
#64
Even without that, he could have killed them all at literally any moment he wanted to. He had no need to sabotage them. He didn't fear them, and he actually wanted them to succeed up to a point.
Well that's my point. He instead wanted to draw them close so he could use them and bring Cloud deeper under his control and torment him.

I think you might be overestimating the role of distance in this matter. Gongaga is pretty darn far from the Sleeping Forest, yet Sephiroth casually invaded Cloud's dreamscape when Aerith contacted him.
I meant "close" as in, closer in pursuing him and thinking about him. His desire to confront Sephiroth and get revenge on him for Aerith makes Cloud hate him and deepens the connection.

I don't think it is the most logical.
Okay... So what do you think is? :mon:

Almost everything Sephiroth does in the original game involves trolling Cloud for essentially no reason: freeing him in Midgar; letting him and the rest of Avalanche live from one day to the next; letting them lay hands on the Black Materia -- the key to his plan for godhood -- twice just so he could force or torture Cloud into handing it to him; leaving Aerith alive long enough to cast Holy just so that Cloud could be forced to kill her instead; again, constantly letting Avalanche members draw breath, even after rendering half of the team unconscious and defenseless in the Whirlwind Maze (while simultaneously tricking another member of the team into bringing the Black Materia to Cloud).

Sephiroth is all about trolling Cloud.
All those instances serve as points that either draw Cloud further into pursuing him and strengthening the pull of the Reunion, or letting him and his team do his dirty work while he regenerates. And Sephiroth's emnity for Cloud motivates his attitude and desire to make Cloud suffer for hurting and killing him. Sephiroth suffered a very real blow to his pride that time.

I mean, that's purposeful. It's trolling in a sense but there's a very real reason and purpose behind it.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
#65
Okay... So what do you think is? :mon:
That any time Seph chose to flip the switch he would have gotten a result like that one at the temple. :monster:

Cloud hated him just as much at the beginning of the game as he did at the temple. His identity was just as muddled. And he would have been just as confused to find himself doing things he couldn't control.

Mako said:
All those instances serve as points that either draw Cloud further into pursuing him and strengthening the pull of the Reunion, or letting him and his team do his dirty work while he regenerates.
But he didn't need them to do his dirty work (Cloud even says as much inside the temple), and who cares about going all the to the northern continent for the Reunion? Jenova's body could have just eaten Cloud right there in his cell in the Shin-Ra building and been done with it.

Mako said:
And Sephiroth's emnity for Cloud motivates his attitude and desire to make Cloud suffer for hurting and killing him. Sephiroth suffered a very real blow to his pride that time.

I mean, that's purposeful. It's trolling in a sense but there's a very real reason and purpose behind it.
There's no more grand purpose to it, though, than that he hates Cloud. It's like the trash he talks in their battle in AC/C. There's no purpose to any of it but to troll Cloud and make him suffer with the thought of his loved ones dying at Sephiroth's hands next.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
#66
That any time Seph chose to flip the switch he would have gotten a result like that one at the temple. :monster:

Cloud hated him just as much at the beginning of the game as he did at the temple. His identity was just as muddled. And he would have been just as confused to find himself doing things he couldn't control.
Right he hated him just as much, but I think there was a difference in regards to Cloud believing Sephiroth was dead and no longer a threat, versus Sephiroth is still alive and now a danger and giving Cloud an opportunity to "settle things once and for all."

Like, I believe Sephiroth wanted Cloud to know he was alive and lure Cloud into a journey of revenge that really turned out to be the Reunion and Sephiroth making Cloud his puppet in the end. If Cloud didn't know he was alive, it'd make getting Cloud moving a little harder.

Maybe Sephiroth could've just taken control of him from the start, but that seems like a really powerful ace to keep hidden for so long when such opportunities arose to use it. Opportunities that would have allowed Sephiroth even more ways to make Cloud suffer.

But he didn't need them to do his dirty work (Cloud even says as much inside the temple), and who cares about going all the to the northern continent for the Reunion? Jenova's body could have just eaten Cloud right there in his cell in the Shin-Ra building and been done with it.
Well I think the irony and twist of that segment of the game is Sephiroth literally does exactly what Cloud warns the party he can do, using Cloud and his friends.

Sephiroth turns Cloud into his flunky, after Cait Sith sacrifices himself to solve the puzzle of the temple.

What Cloud feared would happen, happens thanks to his own doing :mon:

... As for having Cloud make the trek to the Northern Crater and getting his Jenova cells back directly instead of just letting Jenova's body take them by force?

I guess he wanted to praise his puppet with a "good boy" in person :desu:

Actually I think he wanted Cloud to do it as further revenge and insult because he of course hates him for a reason. That and having an army of followers to do your bidding is probably easier than relying on the main Jenova body you're piloting do everything.

There's no more grand purpose to it, though, than that he hates Cloud. It's like the trash he talks in their battle in AC/C. There's no purpose to any of it but to troll Cloud and make him suffer with the thought of his loved ones dying at Sephiroth's hands next.
Well when I say "purpose" or "reason," I mean there's a reason for that hatred.

I jokingly contrasted their rivalry in FFVII with Kingdom Hearts cause we don't really know why exactly Sephiroth torments Cloud so much or why he's supposedly his "darkness." It's a vague and undefined grudge between the two, where Cloud says he can't awaken from his nightmare while he exists and Sephiroth taunts him that he'll happily pull Cloud into a nightmare devoid of light forever.

Birth by Sleep hints that Sephiroth did something to Zack and maybe that's the reason but we just aren't given a reason.

In VII Sephiroth torments Cloud for the very tangible and understandable reason of killing him back in Nibelheim and wounding his pride. I mean, I'd be salty too if some scrub ruined my plans by imapling me through the back, and then hurling me into a pit after I impaled him back and he suddenly pulled some reverse-physics shit that shocked me so hard, I forgot to let go of my sword and then got tossed to my doom. :mon:
 

SailorStarDust

Kept you waiting, huh?
AKA
SSD
#67
Got an email back super late last night. "We appreciate your feedback. It will be forwarded to my superiors. Thank you for taking the time to contact us today and we look forward to your opinions of our upcoming titles."

Looks like they're not just throwing feedback into the trash, so worth contacting if you care!
Thrilled to hear that they're taking care to listen to the feedback! I really hope they'll take care to do proper translation—especially if enough fans contact Square to show, yes, this is a concern. The most they gave me was "We're not able to comment at this time", so...yeah :sweatdrop:
 

SailorStarDust

Kept you waiting, huh?
AKA
SSD
#70
Once again, the English dub ignores the promise referenced in the Japanese version... Today's TokyoGameShow trailer, in the Shinra jail where Tifa is saying along the lines of (in Japanese): "The pinch/bind I imagined back then wasn't like this." English is: "Can't say this is quite what I had in mind when I asked for your help way back when."

Why? Why do they keep doing this?! I seriously hope it's not a dubtitled situation for the subs, but if so, I'll deal with it, I guess.... *Shrug*

I really really hope more companies take the approach like with Judgement when it comes to translating.
 

Strangelove

AI Researcher
AKA
hitoshura
#73
i'm back on my bullshit for another nitpicking trailer post. the english script is based on captions on the official playstation youtube channel but slightly edited as they were sometimes different. the japanese script is transcribed from the trailer on square enix's japanese youtube channel (pls caption your videos why won't you do this)

ティファ? (Tifa?)
「クラウド! 早く!」

JP: "Cloud! Quickly!"
EN: "Cloud! Quickly!"

verdict: quickly moving on

ジェシー (Jessie)
「バレット」

JP: "Barret!"
EN: "Barret!"

verdict: barret

バレット (Barret)
「キリがねぇ」

JP: "[This] just won't end."
EN: "Give me a break."

verdict: there's a slight difference, the japanese line emphasise that the ghost things just keep on appearing one after another. but it's not substantial

ティファ (Tifa)
「ジェシー! バレット!」

JP: "Jessie, Barret!"
EN: "Jessie, Barret!"

verdict: rocky!

バレット (Barret)
「おせーぞ!」

JP: "You're late!"
EN: "Where you been?"

verdict: not much different, really

クラウド (Cloud)
「ティファ」

JP: "Tifa!"
EN: "Tifa!"

verdict: i have nothing to say

ジェシー (Jessie)
「行くぜ 野郎ども!」

JP: "Let's go, boys!"
EN: "Let's lay down some rubber."

verdict: there's a stereotypical masculine tone to the japanese line, but it's probably not a significant alteration.

ビッグス (Biggs)
「よっしゃ 飛ばせ!」

JP: "Alright, hit the gas!"
EN: "Crank that throttle!"

verdict: both have the same meaning of 'drive real fast' so whatevs

ウェッジ (Wedge)
「了解っす!」

JP: "You got it!"
EN: "Okay, you got it!"

verdict: pretty much the same

ジェシー (Jessie)
「何あれ?」

JP: "What is that?"
EN: "Who's that?"

verdict: not much difference

クラウド (Cloud)
「ソルジャーだ」

JP: "It's a SOLDIER."
EN: "A SOLDIER."

verdict: same

ティファ (Tifa)
「あの頃に想像していたピンチってこんなんじゃなかったな

JP: "The pinch I imagined back then wasn't like this."
EN: "Can't say this is quite what I had in mind when I asked for your help way back when."

verdict: missing the 'pinch/bind' reference that's there in the original again. obviously it's lacking the context of the surrounding lines, and the line does hint at the promise in another way, but if you can call two instances a 'pattern' then there does seem to be a pattern developing. what you got against this line, english dub.

ビッグス (Biggs)
「なんか俺たち 乗ってるよな」

JP: "Feels like we're on it, huh."
EN: "Feels like we're flying high these days."

verdict: they're both 'things are going well' lines so it's not much of a change, although they seem to have added an explicit 'these days' from the following line to this one as well. also is 'flying high' a joke, like because they're gliding through the sky. is this a dad joke.

ジェシー (Jessie)
「この頃 特にね」

JP: "Especially these days."
EN: "Now more than ever."

verdict: no real difference

ビッグス (Biggs)
「あいつのおかげだな」

JP: "It's thanks to him."
EN: "He's a keeper, all right."

verdict: the english line seems to be a call back to jessie's line from the previous trailer, which isn't there in the japanese one.

ジェシー (Jessie)
「うん!」

JP: "Yeah!
EN: "Yeah!"

verdict: yep

レノ (Reno)
「邪魔するぞ、と」

JP: "Pardon the interruption."
EN: "I'll see myself in. Thanks."

verdict: my rendition isn't strictly literal, it's a phrase used when visiting people with a sense of inconveniencing someone (out of politeness and not necessarily that you're actually in the way). i think obviously reno isn't actually bothered about that. i didn't want to just copy the english line but i actually think that works well and i like it.

there is also the matter of reno's unique speech tag, ぞ、と. which doesn't really mean anything except maybe adding emphasis. from the trailer it doesn't seem like they have tried to find an alternative (such as in naruto where iirc they replaced だってばよ with 'believe it!', or kingdom hearts where instead of xigbar's ってハナシ became 'as if!' in english) and instead just dropped it entirely. i think this type of character dialogue works better in japanese than in english, i don't really know how you'd translate that over.

レノ (Reno)
「お前 何?」

JP: "What're you?"
EN: "And who are you?"

verdict: meh

レノ (Reno)
「出番だぞ、と!」

JP: "My turn!"
EN: "Now it's my turn."

verdict: meeeeh

ルード (Rude)
「ごきげんよう」

JP: "Hello/Nice to see you."
EN: "Hello, Aerith."

verdict: idk if it's just me but i was kind of surprised by rude saying ごきげんよう. it's a bit old-fashioned and high-society and that wasn't quite the image i had of rude and i just found it funny.

エアリス (Aerith)
「待ち伏せ?」

JP: "An ambush?"
EN: "What do you want?"

verdict: an obvious difference, although i didn't think the japanese line sounded worried or anything the way it was delivered. it was just a sense of like, "really, you're lying in wait for us?" which you could get from the english line too

ルード (Rude)
「なるほど 魔晄の目だ」

JP: "I see, [those are] mako eyes."
EN: "Wait a minute... those eyes."

verdict: to me, there sounds like a difference between the two lines. the japanese one seems like he had some prior knowledge and has figured something out, in my head i'm thinking maybe he heard from reno about this guy and how he defeated reno and seeing cloud's eyes he realises why. in the english one he seems like this is something he is just noticing now.

エアリス (Aerith)
「コルネオはこういうの好きなんだって」

JP: "[They say/I heard] Corneo likes this sort of thing."
EN: "Corneo's got certain tastes."

verdict: the japanese line sounds like she's relaying information she's heard or been told, but it's not a vital difference.

コルネオ (Corneo)
「さあ子猫ちゃん 俺の胸へカモ~ン!」

JP: "Come on, kitten. Get into my arms!"
EN: "Don't be shy, little kitten. Shimmy on over and give daddy some sugar."

verdict: literally the japanese line is 'to my chest' and he uses the english word 'come on' but i'm sorry i can't in good conscience write 'come on to my chest'. this is a family forum.

anyway i think the english line is fine.

エアリス (Aerith)
「大丈夫 ね?」

JP: "It's fine. Right?
EN: "It'll be fine. Right?"

verdict: it's fine.

ティファ (Tifa)
「なんとかして」

JP: "Do something [about it]."
EN: "After you."

verdict: a bit different, but it might work fine in the full context.

ツォン (Tseng)
「かくれんぼは終わりだ エアリス」

JP: "Hide-and-seek's over, Aerith."
EN: "You led us on a merry chase, Aerith."

verdict: what is a merry chase.

神羅兵 (Shinra Troop)
「アバランチに告ぐ! ただちに支柱から立ち去れ!」

JP: "Attention, AVALANCHE! Move away from the support pillar at once!"
EN: "Attention, AVALANCHE! Resist and we will use lethal force."

verdict: there are more lines here that i didn't catch over the rest of the audio. the english line sounds like they are going to arrest them, whereas in that japanese line it sounds like they are trying to warn them away from the pillar.

バレット (Barret)
「うざいんだぁー!」

JP: "You're a pain in the ass!"
EN: "Got your lethal force right here!"

verdict: red? what's that? that means i wasn't sure if i was hearing it correctly so it's my best guess (i suppose all of them are my guesses in a way). anyway the japanese line doesn't seem to play off the previous line in the way the english one does. did they change that line so that barret could have this one-liner?

ティファ (Tifa)
「見て!」

JP: "Look!"
EN: "Look!"

verdict: same

バレット (Barret)
「プレジデント神羅」

JP: "President Shinra."
EN: "President Shinra."

verdict: naaaammees.

プレジデント神羅 (President Shinra)
「さて、スラムの道化師諸君 君たちは今から敵国ウータイの手先だ」

JP: "Now then, clowns [from/of the] slums. Henceforth you are agents of our enemy Wutai."
EN: "Now then, my dear sewer rats. Henceforth, allies of wicked Wutai, our sworn enemy."

verdict: this one i struggled to catch with the audio processing on the dialogue and the music so i'm not 100% confident that president shinra is calling them clowns??? i mean, it might make sense if you take it as a condescending way of saying they are playing a role in shinra's scheme. but that might be me trying to rationalise how i heard the word 'clown'

anyway the main part is the wutai bit so that's the same

バレット (Barret)
「ウータイだと? なんだそりゃ」

JP: "Wutai? The hell's that about?"
EN: "Wutai? The hell we are!"

verdict: uh huh

ハイデッカー (Heidegger)
「ギャハハハ! ネズミどもには理解できまい」

JP: "[horse laugh] You rats cannot comprehend."
EN: "[horse laugh] You still don't understand your role in this."

verdict: doesn't seem like a significant difference

ティファ (Tifa)
「クラウド!」

JP: "Cloud!"
EN: "Cloud!"

verdict: at last i'm done
 

Pizzachu

Pro Adventurer
#75
I thought Reno would say "yo" frequently in the English version of FFVII? I can't exactly remember, so my brain could be making this up. If he did, then do you think he would keep that verbal tic in the Remake?

Edit: Haha, spelling errors.
 
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