Jenova Cells Can't be "Erased"

[Ryushikaze]

I'm going to attempt to be patient while I explain this:

If you have an assertion that you expect everyone to agree with, especially when you're drastically overturning existing information, then you have the burden of proof. You really should not expect me to prove that the old information still applies. Unless overturned, it does.

You should also not throw around terms like "it's obvious I'm right" or "read it." Your opponent is likely going to be ignorant to a few things. He may not have time to read an entire document just to humor you.

When I get into debates & I say something is the way it is, I dig up quotes. I did it when I got that quote from the Crisis Core ultimania for this topic. I've been doing it for the Dissidia debate. I won't "get on" you if you stop assuming your opponents are willfully ignorant & provide sources of your claims.

Okay?

I'm going to attempt to be patient while I explain this:
Everything YOU just said- LISTEN TO IT.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

OFF TOPIC QUESTION AGAIN

How many people were overall killed by Deepground, whether through it's purification thing or kidnapped? Are we looking at some population scouring event here, or relatively a lot of people, or "relatively a lot of people on paper (like 100,000 people sounds like a lot in the real world, but it's statistically insignificant compared to the overall population) but not really" sort of deal?

 

[Neo Bahamut]

Ted: Don't look at me, I tried to answer your question.

Ryu: Really. I'm being serious for a minute, here. The snarky comebacks are not helping you. This would go so much smoother if you'd realize that it isn't a personal insult for someone to ask you to cite your sources.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

OFF TOPIC QUESTION AGAIN

How many people were overall killed by Deepground, whether through it's purification thing or kidnapped? Are we looking at some population scouring event here, or relatively a lot of people, or "relatively a lot of people on paper (like 100,000 people sounds like a lot in the real world, but it's statistically insignificant compared to the overall population) but not really" sort of deal?

I was just wondering that yesterday myself while talking to Mako on MSN. DC is pretty damn depressing (don't make the obvious joke there, folks).

My guess is that it's somewhere between "relatively a lot of people" and "a lot on paper." They took 1200 from Junon, but did so without leaving a trace. Furthermore, the WRO was able to subdue a panic and got by with reporting that only 20 or 30 people had disappeared.

That the populace was convinced of this probably means that, relatively speaking, 1200 wasn't that many.

Unless, of course, Reeve was talking about people in the other towns' panicking, in which case maybe most of Junon was taken and they covered it up.

We know that Wutai had 1200 people taken from it ...

Just want to emphasize, that was Junon. Yuffie said Wutai was attacked, but didn't specify how many people were taken or killed there.

She did say that the Wusheng played a significant role in routing Deepground there, though.

Strictly speaking, Cloud in his natural state does things that are considered normal in that world for other humans.

Then why was it a big deal for Cloud to be able to use that Raven's sword? Why was the script for that scene written to emphasize that it was a big deal? Why was Cloud unable to remember what he did (this isn't the last time that would happen, you might recall)?

Why was Sephiroth written to say that what Cloud was doing in the Nibelheim reactor was impossible? Why was what Cloud did so blatantly amazing?

Sabin from VI performs some inhuman actions without magical powers. The guy can jump across train cars while holding another person, as well as holding up a burning house by himself.

You may have forgotten, but FFVI does emphasize that Sabin was a beast and not just "like any other guy."

So he has the main character advantage. That doesn't suggest he has innate supernatural powers when the games continually hammer us over the head with the point that he was just "some awkward kid who became a SOLDIER grunt."

What it has continually hammered us over the head with is the irony that Cloud was too mentally weak to get into SOLDIER, but was already ridiculously strong physically.


Back to the JENOVA cells matter:

We don't see jack shit. The place is cleaned out before Vincent gets there. Probably before Shalua gets there.

So I guess the point was included in the script for no reason. Certainly not foreshadowing of the later revelation about cultivating a pure Lifestream.

It seems like you assume a great many things that are deliberately included in stories -- given the fact that they're there to begin with -- aren't put there for any specific purpose related to highlighting narrative themes or plot elements.

This is just an absolute cop-out. I did not ask you WHY Rosso & Nero were killing people, I pointed out that they clearly have no problem killing people they should be using.

They killed soldiers who were there to interfere in Deepground's plans.

Your strongest pieces of evidence are that Geostigma's healing makes a vaporization visual effect & that Deepground allegedly captured most of Edge instead of outright killing them. That is not enough to conclude that you can just "get rid" of Jenova cells.

When your only options for what happened with Cloud in AC/C is that either Sephiroth's will was neutralized in those particular cells, or the cells themselves were destroyed?

Yes. Yes, it is quite enough.

As long as we're ad homing, why do you feel the need to lock yourselves into 1 conclusion, ignore any evidence to the contrary, & then get bitchy with other people for not believing you unquestionably?

That's not a bad question. Somebody should really ask the guy who started this thread.

Seriously, is your irony detector broken?

Ryu: Really. I'm being serious for a minute, here. The snarky comebacks are not helping you. This would go so much smoother if you'd realize that it isn't a personal insult for someone to ask you to cite your sources.

It is a personal insult, though, for someone to cite their sources only for you to say, "When I feel like it. In the meantime, I'm going to continue on as though you haven't made that point."

 

[Neo Bahamut]

Oh yeah. I remember that because I remember wondering what the Hell the "Wusheng" are. I'm still not really sure.

Then why was it a big deal for Cloud to be able to use that Raven's sword? Why was the script for that scene written to emphasize that it was a big deal? Why was Cloud unable to remember what he did (this isn't the last time that would happen, you might recall)?

He went berserk & he has some talent with swords. Woo?

Why was Sephiroth written to say that what Cloud was doing in the Nibelheim reactor was impossible? Why was what Cloud did so blatantly amazing?

Because Sephiroth is supposed to be unbeatable. Shinra thought that, Hojo thought that, Sephiroth thought that, pretty much everyone thought that.

By a similar token, why are all of those fight scenes written so that Cloud barely manages to scrape out a victory against a clearly superior Sephiroth? I seem to recall that, in Advent Children, Sephiroth was quipping while Cloud was struggling just to keep up. And, again, he only defeated Sephiroth at Nibelheim because he was distracted & then because he was damn near cut in half.

Cloud is certainly capable of amazing performances in states of extreme duress. So is everyone else. There's a whole system of attacks based around it called "Limit Breaks."

You may have forgotten, but FFVI does emphasize that Sabin was a beast and not just "like any other guy."

Then I suppose it wouldn't be ridiculous to expect the same confirmation of VII, if this "Cloud is a Super Saiyan" theory is true.

Yes, that's what I intend to keep calling it. It sounds like some DBZ bullshit.

So I guess the point was included in the script for no reason. Certainly not foreshadowing of the later revelation about cultivating a pure Lifestream.

Wow, look at all of the hardcore not saying that that I did. While everyone's claiming I don't acknowledge that citizens were being kidnapped, let's keep in mind that it had already happened in Kalm.

Call it "Schroedinger's Deepground." Since we don't observe them killing or sacrificing the a certain set of citizens, we must assume both.

It seems like you assume a great many things that are deliberately included in stories -- given the fact that they're there to begin with -- aren't put there for any specific purpose related to highlighting narrative themes or plot elements.

Ad hominem.

When your only options for what happened with Cloud in AC/C is that either Sephiroth's will was neutralized in those particular cells, or the cells themselves were destroyed?

Those are the "only options" because you say they are. Another possibility has not occurred to you, so you write it off as impossible.

Yes. Yes, it is quite enough.

No. No it is not. What are you, the continuity bureau? You are literally changing the entire story. And you're trying to tell me that all you need to do is interpret some scenes & then you must be right?

What?

That's not a bad question. Somebody should really ask the guy who started this thread.

Seriously, is your irony detector broken?

Seriously, are you people incapable of having an intelligent conversation without descending into wittier-than-thou bullshit.

It is a personal insult, though, for someone to cite their sources only for you to say, "When I feel like it. In the meantime, I'm going to continue on as though you haven't made that point."

"Case of Shinra & Case of Yuffie paint a good picture" is not a damn citation. A quote would be acceptable. Some indication of precisely where the exact information is would be a citation.

 

[Kai Schulen]

Those are the "only options" because you say they are. Another possibility has not occurred to you, so you write it off as impossible.

OKay then, what's this other possibility of yours? How do you think Geostigma can be cured?

 

[Neo Bahamut]

I did not say I had another idea, just that it is nonsensical for one to state "there are only 2 possibilities" just because only 2 happened to occur to that person.

As a matter of fact, though, I did say earlier that I always thought Geostigma was just a physical cure. You know, Cure heals wounds, Poisana heals Poison, well, Great Gospel healed Geostigma.

If it's a "symptom of alien matter infesting the body," then I don't see why the body couldn't be treated.

In that analogy, it is theoretically possible that the Geostigma cure could be temporary, but it really doesn't matter. Theoretically, Sephiroth still has the Black Materia.

As for "pure lifestream," I'm not even really sure what that's about. Zack integrated with the Lifestream no problem. And Nero didn't really worry much about "contaminating" the samples he captured personally.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Oh yeah. I remember that because I remember wondering what the Hell the "Wusheng" are. I'm still not really sure.

The Wusheng are the Five Mighty Gods of Wutai.

He went berserk & he has some talent with swords. Woo?

Tifa went berserk in Nibelheim and fared much less spectacularly. So: No u.

In any event, you really can't deny that they've beaten this point into our heads for years. Hell, even the 10th Anniversary Ultimania notes in his profile that he "miraculously" came through the fall as a child with no injuries.

It's not something that "just" happened and nobody ever remembered that they'd written it that way. It would have been easy enough to have Cloud run to catch Tifa but get to the edge too late.

This could have been done and everything could have proceeded from there the same as it did in the final product.

It was deliberately chosen that Cloud fell with her into the gorge, though. I'm going to assume that it was done that way for a reason, as that's how writing typically works.

By a similar token, why are all of those fight scenes written so that Cloud barely manages to scrape out a victory against a clearly superior Sephiroth?

Because Sephiroth is superior.

And, again, he only defeated Sephiroth at Nibelheim because he was distracted & then because he was damn near cut in half.

Yes, distracted -- by the feat of crazy awesome that Cloud was performing.

Cloud is certainly capable of amazing performances in states of extreme duress. So is everyone else. There's a whole system of attacks based around it called "Limit Breaks."

Yet Cloud is the one that they keep coming back to with demonstrations of this. Zack was in a state of extreme duress in the reactor. So was Tifa.

Cloud was the only one we know to have pulled off a Limit Break, though.

If nothing else, you've got to at least concede that Cloud taps into this reservoir more naturally than others. Just look at the sheer number of stressful situations that people have found themselves in throughout the Compilation.

Why is it that Cloud and a Turk are the only ordinary humans to have gone into a comparable Limit Break in such situations? With Cloud having done it on more than one occasion, at that, and the instance in the reactor getting more superhuman with each iteration.

Then I suppose it wouldn't be ridiculous to expect the same confirmation of VII, if this "Cloud is a Super Saiyan" theory is true.

Yes, that's what I intend to keep calling it.

That's what it should be called. It's really just like little Gohan.

Wow, look at all of the hardcore not saying that that I did. While everyone's claiming I don't acknowledge that citizens were being kidnapped, let's keep in mind that it had already happened in Kalm.

Again, the significant difference is that everybody in Edge was just gone. No bodies on the ground. No cherry picking of who they were taking.

So it's a pretty significant difference from what went down in Kalm.

Ad hominem.

No, it really isn't. An ad hominem argument would argue that "Your argument is fail because you suck."

What I did was make an observation about your approach to both debate and literary analysis. That observation in no way was a comment on the validity or lack thereof of your argument at hand.

I pointed out its fail without saying that it was due to you sucking. I just made the observation in addition to responding to your argument.

And you've got to be really damn sensitive to take a simple observation as an insult to begin with.

Those are the "only options" because you say they are.

No. They're the only options because they're the only options.

The problem: JENOVA cells are in people. Sephiroth's will acts through those cells. This results in the phenomenon that is geostigma.

The solution: Remove the JENOVA cells or neutralize Sephiroth's will.

Given that we witness the visual removal of stuff from the bodies of those being cured, it's safe to say the former takes place. Especially given the obvious differences in Deepground's approaches to capturing people in Kalm and Edge.

Now, that said, I would wager that both actually occur, as something of a JENOVA-Be-Gone cure-all. Obviously Aerith's rain effects the shinentai as well, even the two who had no JENOVA cells in their bodies.

But, again, we witness the rain have an effect on physical material being expunged from people's bodies as well. So it both eliminates JENOVA cells and neutralizes Seph's will.

Now either provide an actual refutation beyond "It could be something else -- though I have no ideas of what it could be myself, and have no intention of adding a constructive angle to this discussion by making a suggestion," or concede the point. If you please.

No. No it is not. What are you, the continuity bureau? You are literally changing the entire story.

I'm not changing a goddamn thing. Yes, the Cetra were unable to outright destroy JENOVA in the past.

It was also pretty obvious that the Lifestream wasn't able to neutralize Sephiroth in the past.

Yet, in either case, something has changed as of the ending of Advent Children.

I didn't change anything. The writer did. Ergo, something has changed.

Jesus fucking Christ.

Seriously, are you people incapable of having an intelligent conversation without descending into wittier-than-thou bullshit.

Are you incapable of having a discussion that seeks to determine the more plausible circumstance in a group of technically possible scenarios, rather than picking the one you prefer and arguing to doomsday that it's the only logical one?

"Case of Shinra & Case of Yuffie paint a good picture" is not a damn citation. A quote would be acceptable. Some indication of precisely where the exact information is would be a citation.

I imagine those using them as citations assumed that -- given that the stories aren't long, and given that you're part of the fandom and, thus, are likely to have an interest in them to begin with -- you could and would read them.

I did not say I had another idea, just that it is nonsensical for one to state "there are only 2 possibilities" just because only 2 happened to occur to that person.

If you can't present another possibility while insisting with foam flying from your mouth that there is another, then you're the one taking the nonsensical position.

As a matter of fact, though, I did say earlier that I always thought Geostigma was just a physical cure. You know, Cure heals wounds, Poisana heals Poison, well, Great Gospel healed Geostigma.

If it's a "symptom of alien matter infesting the body," then I don't see why the body couldn't be treated.

Have you really never heard the idiom, "treat the disease/cause, not the symptom"?

If the blood pouring out of a part of someone's anatomy is a result of a foreign object that has skewered them, you're not going to effectively treat the body until the foreign object has been removed.

JENOVA's cells and Sephiroth's will are the foreign object in this case. One has to go.

In that analogy, it is theoretically possible that the Geostigma cure could be temporary, but it really doesn't matter.

Sephiroth outright says "You've lost your geostigma?"

As for "pure lifestream," I'm not even really sure what that's about. Zack integrated with the Lifestream no problem.

It's explained in Dirge that JENOVA cell carriers were not being dumped into Omega's pit because a pure stream needed to be cultivated for his awakening.

And Nero didn't really worry much about "contaminating" the samples he captured personally.

What samples did he capture personally? In any case, even physical contact with Weiss wasn't enough to contaminate him. It's only when he actually bonded his darkness to Weiss that it was a problem.

 

[Edley]

Barrett: I been here since the beginnin', an' I still don't know what the hell's goin' on.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

One thing I actually love about the FFVII setting is that Cloud is freakishly naturally powerful for no discernible reason. The fact that SE is consciously aware of this and they're letting it slide with a "Yeah we know Cloud is freakishly strong so what wanna fight about it" without trying to retroactively explain it away with some dumb ass shit is really refreshing.

The fact that Cloud doesn't give a fuck and continuously doesn't give a fuck really works well within the story.

 

[Neo Bahamut]

The Wusheng are the Five Mighty Gods of Wutai.

Oh.

Tifa went berserk in Nibelheim and fared much less spectacularly. So: No u.

As I recall, she was up against Sephiroth, & swords weren't really her thing. Cloud was up against the Ravens, so it's an impressive feat, but nonetheless not really the same. They were, after all, usually taken down by Turks, who were by no means "supernaturally powered." Skilled, sure, but not supernatural. Additionally, the main thing about the Ravens was that they regenerated.

In any event, you really can't deny that they've beaten this point into our heads for years. Hell, even the 10th Anniversary Ultimania notes in his profile that he "miraculously" came through the fall as a child with no injuries.

I'd say they're sending conflicting messages. That Cloud has uncanny luck (or whatever you want to call it), but at the same time, he's just some loser kid.

Because Sephiroth is superior.

My point. Cloud isn't some Super Saiyan 7 who's above & beyond SOLDIER. I would say that, as of Advent Children, he's at the level of a SOLDIER 1st Class. He's clearly somewhere in the Genesis/Angeal/Zack range. However, that would be because he IS a SOLDIER in all but name.

Yes, distracted -- by the feat of crazy awesome that Cloud was performing.

He was staring intently at Jenova the entire time. He never bothered to turn around, or even give any indication that Cloud was there.

After being stabbed with a sword that should have logically cut him in half, I think it's safe to say that Sephiroth wasn't exactly fighting at full strength.

If nothing else, you've got to at least concede that Cloud taps into this reservoir more naturally than others. Just look at the sheer number of stressful situations that people have found themselves in throughout the Compilation.

I concede only that Cloud has all of the powers of the main character.

Again, the significant difference is that everybody in Edge was just gone. No bodies on the ground. No cherry picking of who they were taking.

So it's a pretty significant difference from what went down in Kalm.

Yes it is. The question would be why. It is possible that they were all taken, but given that Nero was there, it's equally possible that he cleaned up the bodies. In fact, I've often wondered what Nero & Rosso were doing in Edge at that particular time, apparently long after they cleaned the place out.

And you've got to be really damn sensitive to take a simple observation as an insult to begin with.

Excuse me? Weren't you one of those people who equated "this is a temporary visit" with "fuck you, TLS?"

Talk about a double-standard.

I'm not even going to argue the definition of an ad hominem, because I've been there before, & it's just retarded. The fact is that your assertion is not only bullshit, it's the exact opposite of what I do.

Now either provide an actual refutation beyond "It could be something else -- though I have no ideas of what it could be myself, and have no intention of adding a constructive angle to this discussion by making a suggestion," or concede the point. If you please.

Let's try it this way:

1. To cure Jenova cells, one either needs to erase their link to Sephiroth or erase them completely.
2. Geostigma is cured by a vaporization effect.
3. Therefore, something was removed.
4. Therefore, the Jenova cells were destroyed.

This is invalid at basically every turn. Even assuming that the premise is true, the visual effect doesn't prove anything. Even if it did, it would not prove what was removed, besides the obvious answer of "Geostigma."

Are you incapable of having a discussion that seeks to determine the more plausible circumstance in a group of technically possible scenarios, rather than picking the one you prefer and arguing to doomsday that it's the only logical one?

I guess your answer is a big, fat "fuck no," then.

Also, it's another double-standard. Where the Hell are you deriving this conclusion from? Your own bias! You conclude that I'm "picking a side & disregarding logic," but when confronted with the fact that YOU haven't conceded either, you'll probably come up with some reason for why "it's different" because you're "obviously" correct.

I imagine those using them as citations assumed that -- given that the stories aren't long, and given that you're part of the fandom and, thus, are likely to have an interest in them to begin with -- you could and would read them.

From what my lurking suggested, Case of Shinra was really long, although I haven't actually looked.

I do intend to read Case of Shinra, but as of yet, I have had neither time & my interest has been lacking for a while.

If you can't present another possibility while insisting with foam flying from your mouth that there is another, then you're the one taking the nonsensical position.

Ignoring everything else that's wrong with this, why did you issue this argument at least twice when you saw that I had an example?

JENOVA's cells and Sephiroth's will are the foreign object in this case. One has to go

.

Working in the same analogy, there are cases when you can't remove the object, but still have to repair the damage.

Sephiroth outright says "You've lost your geostigma?"

Yeah. Because...clearly, his Geostigma was gone? That...doesn't contradict anything I said....

What samples did he capture personally? In any case, even physical contact with Weiss wasn't enough to contaminate him. It's only when he actually bonded his darkness to Weiss that it was a problem.

There were a few towards the end, in the engine room of the Shera. But you're highlighting what I'm getting at. I am speculating that mere presence would not be enough.

The point in bringing up Zack was that he didn't seem to have the problem assimilating with the Lifestream that Geostigma victims do, despite having the cells. And it IS true that improper diffusion into the Lifestream is the result of negative emotions, such as hatred.

There are the problems that, as I've already mentioned, Jenova cells are an infusion, so it would seem to be similar to the case of Nero & Weiss, & that Hojo clearly says, "I had to collect mako untainted by Jenova," but I never said it was a perfect hypothesis.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

y point. Cloud isn't some Super Saiyan 7 who's above & beyond SOLDIER. I would say that, as of Advent Children, he's at the level of a SOLDIER 1st Class. He's clearly somewhere in the Genesis/Angeal/Zack range. However, that would be because he IS a SOLDIER in all but name.

I think you're overstating the power of SOLDIER and understating how strong Cloud is. I thought the point of the narrative was to drive home that he's stronger than all of those SOLDIERS, as strong as they were.

 

[Neo Bahamut]

I think you're overstating the power of SOLDIER and understating how strong Cloud is. I thought the point of the narrative was to drive home that he's stronger than all of those SOLDIERS, as strong as they were.

What.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Abso-fucking-lutely.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

As I recall, she was up against Sephiroth, & swords weren't really her thing.

Stressful situation. No obvious sign of Limit Break.

Point is made.

Cloud was up against the Ravens, so it's an impressive feat, but nonetheless not really the same. They were, after all, usually taken down by Turks, who were by no means "supernaturally powered." Skilled, sure, but not supernatural.

And yet Cloud wielding their weapon was a big deal to a Turk that had defeated the Raven in question.

My point. Cloud isn't some Super Saiyan 7 who's above & beyond SOLDIER. I would say that, as of Advent Children, he's at the level of a SOLDIER 1st Class. He's clearly somewhere in the Genesis/Angeal/Zack range. However, that would be because he IS a SOLDIER in all but name.

It's obvious that Cloud's superior to Zack, at least.

For that matter, Zack beat Genesis and Angeal.

He was staring intently at Jenova the entire time. He never bothered to turn around, or even give any indication that Cloud was there.

After being stabbed with a sword that should have logically cut him in half, I think it's safe to say that Sephiroth wasn't exactly fighting at full strength.

I was referring to when Cloud lifted Sephiroth into the air. Seph could have just let go, but was distracted by the feat of crazy awesome.

I concede only that Cloud has all of the powers of the main character.

Zack loses on more than one occasion in Crisis Core.

Yes it is. The question would be why. It is possible that they were all taken, but given that Nero was there, it's equally possible that he cleaned up the bodies.

They didn't do this in Kalm. Had no reason to do it in Edge.

In fact, I've often wondered what Nero & Rosso were doing in Edge at that particular time, apparently long after they cleaned the place out.

Killing WRO soldiers and waiting for Vincent.

Excuse me? Weren't you one of those people who equated "this is a temporary visit" with "fuck you, TLS?"

For the last time: Your opening posts. Note the emphasis, please.

I'm not even going to argue the definition of an ad hominem, because I've been there before, & it's just retarded.

It has a specific definition. It doesn't have to be argued.

The fact is that your assertion is not only bullshit, it's the exact opposite of what I do.

Yet that's what you've argued both for Cloud's miraculous survival from multiple things that should have killed him and his amazing feats of strength, as well as for the recurring topic of the heroes going home in Dissidia.

So, no, it's not bullshit. It's precisely what you do.

Let's try it this way:

1. To cure Jenova cells, one either needs to erase their link to Sephiroth or erase them completely.
2. Geostigma is cured by a vaporization effect.
3. Therefore, something was removed.
4. Therefore, the Jenova cells were destroyed.

This is invalid at basically every turn.

So 2 and 2 don't equal 4?

Even assuming that the premise is true, the visual effect doesn't prove anything.

It proves that the icky physical material expunged to the surface was vaporized, as that is what is depicted by the visual presentation.

Holy fucking hell.

Even if it did, it would not prove what was removed, besides the obvious answer of "Geostigma."

Geostigma is not a physical object to be removed any more than a general feeling of ickiness is when you're sick.

Also, it's another double-standard. Where the Hell are you deriving this conclusion from? Your own bias! You conclude that I'm "picking a side & disregarding logic," but when confronted with the fact that YOU haven't conceded either, you'll probably come up with some reason for why "it's different" because you're "obviously" correct.

You won't even agree on what constitutes a possible cure for geostigma, so what the flying fuck?

From what my lurking suggested, Case of Shinra was really long, although I haven't actually looked.

You can probably get through it in half an hour of casual attentiveness.

I do intend to read Case of Shinra, but as of yet, I have had neither time & my interest has been lacking for a while.

Fair enough.

Ignoring everything else that's wrong with this, why did you issue this argument at least twice when you saw that I had an example?

What example?

Working in the same analogy, there are cases when you can't remove the object, but still have to repair the damage.

Yet that example isn't applicable to a supernatural case like this where the continued presence of the physical object -- and the continued emanation of the will being transmitted into said physical object -- will continue to cause the disease.

This isn't like a case where a bullet has to be left in a spot too critical to operate on.

Yeah. Because...clearly, his Geostigma was gone? That...doesn't contradict anything I said....

Seph said it's gone, not temporarily cured.

There were a few towards the end, in the engine room of the Shera.

Dumping them into his darkness to die is not capturing them for sacrifices to Omega.

The point in bringing up Zack was that he didn't seem to have the problem assimilating with the Lifestream that Geostigma victims do, despite having the cells.

Geostigma victims had Sephiroth's will converting their spirit energy into his own Lifestream through the JENOVA cells. Obviously this wouldn't be a problem until after the end of the original game.

 

[Edley]

I'm trying to make a connection between J-Cells and Sephiroth's "I will ... never be a memory." Probably reading too much in to it, but kinda seems like Sephiroth's acknowledging his cellular link to Cloud (Jenova) and taunting him at the same time. The memory Cloud will never be able to forget, so to speak. It would make sense then that Cloud would have those cells for the rest of his life, if only from a dramatic perspective.

I think the misunderstanding here is equating the S-Cells which were injected and bonded to Cloud when he was 14 and the Lifestream-borne Geostigma from which Cloud contracted Jenova Cells.

1. Cloud has some combination of mako and S-Cells in his body. He was stronger than your average human before this (see Before Crisis), but the Sephiroth Reunion Project made him a lot stronger. Between his coming to over dying Zack and the defeat of Sephiroth in the Northern Cave the fighting and training he goes through make him stronger, probably near to the point of Sephiroth.

2. Cloud and the portion of the planet's population who came in contact with the Jenova tainted lifestream contract Geostigma.

3. Aerith's/The Planet's Healing Rain/Great Gospel cures the population of Geostigma, though it isn't directly stated whether or not the rest of the population continues to carry the J-Cells associated with Geostigma. (Note these are different cells than S-Cells or G-Cells).

4. Cloud's still a badass whether he lost those J-Cells from geostigma or not. He's listening to metal again, forsaking scremo and wrecking shop on Kadaj and soloing his Sephiroth reunion form. Cloud tells Sephiroth to piss off and die for good, he says nuh uh not until the gross profits go down. Cloud agrees that this is a reasonable argument and they agree to set a date for tea and discussion of the most influential indie record labels...and I've gotten silly.

5. Dirge of Cerberus is an abomination, but we do learn in the brief time we're not cringing at the money spent on rendering the gaming equivalent of a trip to hot topic that there are still others exposed to G-Cells, namely Genesis and Deepground.

6. So what we do know is there is at least one remaining S-Cell carrier, Cloud. And there are two or more possible remaining G-Cell carriers, Genesis and Weiss. Given Jenova's adaptability and her ability to survive 2,000 years and then being chopped, screwed, and liquified by Shinra Co's most depraved plus her ability to transmutate and persist through the marrow of the planet itself, it's probably likely that Great Gospel only zapped that particular permutation of the blue alien bitch.

Oh... and Sephiroth says only shoegazing little queers listen to Matador while Cloud argues that you'd have to be criminally insane not to realize that Sub Pop is a bunch of hipster gutter trash glory hounds and whiney alterna-douches.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

... the J-Cells associated with Geostigma. (Note these are different cells than S-Cells or G-Cells).

There isn't a difference as far as I know. The procedure used on the Sephiroth Copies has always been described as identical to the procedure used on members of SOLDIER.

Sephiroth influenced Cloud through the JENOVA cells in his body during the original game and should be able to afflict him with geostigma via the same.

 

[Edley]

There isn't a difference as far as I know. The procedure used on the Sephiroth Copies has always been described as identical to the procedure used on members of SOLDIER.

Sephiroth influenced Cloud through the JENOVA cells in his body during the original game and should be able to afflict him with geostigma via the same.

FWIW http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Jenova_Project

A later experiment was Hojo's Jenova Reunion Theory. This time, the survivors of the destruction of Nibelheim were kidnapped and injected with Sephiroth's cells. These people, including Cloud Strife and Zack Fair, would become Sephiroth clones. These "clones" were not direct genetic copies, but rather underwent similar enhancement procedures as those in SOLDIER.

The purpose of the experiment being to recreate Sephiroth, Cloud and Zack were injected with Sephiroth's cells.

 

[Makoeyes987]

That's wrong. The Sephiroth Copy Project was never about recreating Sephiroth. It was to prove the Jenova Reunion Theory. That's straight out of the original game and Ultimania Omega.

 

[Edley]

Roger on that, been up too long. Still, Cloud's S-Cells would be different than the jenova cells acquired through geostigma, no?

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Apparently they're different somehow:
http://thelifestream.net/final-fantasy-vii/284/crisis-core-complete-guide-keyword-collection/2/

But they're still JENOVA cells, so there's probably not a whole lot of difference.

Honestly, I still think that the whole S-Cells thing is stupid as fuck. There'd never been an indication prior that they were anything but regular JENOVA cells. Should have just stuck with calling them that.

 

[Ryushikaze]

S- cells are basically the same as Jenova cells, as are G cells, just after being affected by the human body for some time.

Apparently, after awhile, Jenova cells become 'corrupted' by the host, which is the entire reason why G cells in Genesis and Angeal have the abilities they do. 'S-cells' are just Jenova cells that were harvested from sephypoo and have not yet degraded in the host, like the ones injected into Zack for the S-copy project.

Which reminds me- who's cells was Zack injected with in the first place? S, G, A, or J?

 

[Edley]

Probably regular Jenova cells. In CC Genesis wanted Cloud because he had pure S cells within him whereas Zack's hair turned the Genesis copy into a monster because of his prior J-Cells. It is really kind of dumb when you think about it. Hopefully they won't have mad scientists going about injecting Cloud cells into warriors of future titles.

 

[Neo Bahamut]

Dumping them into his darkness to die is not capturing them for sacrifices to Omega.

"I was short a few souls, so I came to collect."

Everything else I really don't care about. I'm sticking with the canon, & the canon says Jenova Cells don't work that way.

As for "S Cells," honestly, I don't think there's a major difference between the "types" of Jenova cells. I think that was just Hollander & Genesis getting desperate & pulling ideas out of their asses.

 

[Max Payne]

Everything else I really don't care about. I'm sticking with the canon, & the canon says Jenova Cells don't work that way.

lol