Jenova Cells Can't be "Erased"

[Neo Bahamut]

And there's the problem EG and I are having with your side of this discussion. Your argument just comes back to "No" every time.

Wow, way to take that out of the context of the ENTIRE PARAGRAPH FOLLOWING IT.

Given the above, I think I have a better grasp of what a retcon is than you do, man.

Well, you're wrong. New additions to a story ARE retcons. Seriously, this isn't something you can really debate. Did you read that page, by any chance?

Neither Aerith nor anyone else in the past had the power to neutralize Sephiroth's will via magic before either, but you don't seem to take much objection to the idea of that new development.

What? That's not even a valid comparison. No one ever TRIED before.

Hell, we were never even outright told that it was JENOVA cells inside Cloud that allowed for Sephiroth to be able to access his mind and control him.

As you said, we are effectively told this when told how Reunion works. It is not the same thing as seeing the Geostigma infection disappear & concluding, "Oh, I guess Cloud no longer has Jenova cells."

Which is what one would expect to be the case in the event of a plasmid-like transfer of genetic information. That doesn't mean the alien cells fused with the host's.

Does the story say anything about SOLDIERs having 2 different types of cells? No, it does not.

Where and when does he say this? He only has about 20 lines in the whole game, but I've not been able to find him saying such a thing

That may have been a slight quote botch on my part. Hollander does state that Zack's SOLDIER conditioning causes the "S cells" introduced to him to "deteriorate," this is true. However, it is Hojo who tells us that the Degeneration is a result of an unstable genetic structure. Between Hojo's explanation that the cells alter the genetic code & Hollander's statement that they "deteriorate" in SOLDIERs, one can conclude that they do not remain free-floating in the body.

So, when we see him die in the film's ending, and his entire body gets destroyed, if the rain doesn't destroy JENOVA cells, how do you explain what we see there?

When Kadaj was introduced to the Jenova cells, he turned into Sephiroth. That was sort of the whole point. Since he turns back into Kadaj, it's reasonable to conclude that he no longer has Jenova cells. We do see material exit his body as Sephiroth delivers his final line of the movie.

In fairness, doesn't your opening post and the existence of this thread treat Cloud losing his JENOVA cells as the current idea? That's what most people who have thought about it believe, right? You're suggesting an alternative to the "established" understanding, no?

No. What this forum believes=/=established information.

You still need to reconcile the destroyed physical material we witness with whatever explanation you suggest, though. And sealing off the cells beyond where Seph's will can reach them is still a new development.

I said, "Cloud having Jenova cells" was never retconned. Besides, those hypotheticals exist only to disprove the notion that Great Gospel HAS to destroy the cells.

What diseased tissue, by the way?

...The black pus & shit?

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

@Tres: Only quoting a portion of your post, since a lot of my comments would boil down to "This" or "Quoted for fucking truth".

I assumed she was just in the pool to talk to Cloud.

I was referring to the rain, rather than the pool. With the exception of Cloud, all known cases of Geostigma being cured occurs after Sephiroth's death (specifically referring to Moogle Girl may have obscured rather than illustrated my point). Since Sephiroth had been killed, if we presume that interfering with his will could cure the condition then we'd think that contact with the water would be unnecessary at that point unless A.) his will is still strong enough to continue manipulating the J-cells and keep the body fighting it after taking Omnislash 5/6 or B.) his continued will is not needed to maintain the condition once it has begun (the cells continue to be active and cause the body to overwork itself once he "turns them on" even if he doesn't maintain it). But yeah, she probably was just there to support the other Geostigma sufferers and celebrate, since she was outside during the rain.

New developments in the future (like Advent Children) are not considered retcons, as they're not added to the past.

That's the perspective on the word "retcon" that I was coming from when I made my earlier post. Whether its a matter of popular use concerning the word, or if Wikipedia/NB don't know what they're talking about, its use to describe the continuing flow of a narrative confused me.

Also, in EG's defense, let me remind you of what you said earlier: "I'm not 'pretending I know some big secret.' Cloud's Jenova cells are not gone & everyone should know it. Why should everyone know it? Because it was never retconned!"

What you were saying here implied that you were using "retcon" in its common pejorative sense -- that of a contradiction to past events. Since you insist that you're using it in its basic form, I'd just like to point out to you that there's nothing to retcon in any sense of the word by Cloud losing his JENOVA cells.

There's no more a contradiction here nor an addition to be added to details in the past than there is anything to contradict or retroactively add in Sephiroth's will being interfered with in any capacity by rain from Aerith or the Lifestream.

Despite my disclaimer above, I still must say: "Quoted for Fucking Truth" at this point.

Given the above, I think I have a better grasp of what a retcon is than you do, man.

I luled.

As for "discontinuity," I knew what you were talking about. Likewise, you should be aware that it's completely irrelevant what a fan chooses to do in discussions about the official continuity.[/QUOTE]

Considering NB's use of "irrelevant" to try and dismiss my arguments and yours Tres, I found this genuinely irrelevant comment amusing once it was explained to me what "discontuitying" meant. I had no idea because, whether I like a development in a story or not, I accept it, even seemingly plot breaking retcons (until they themselves are retconned out of existence). I don't mind when people go cherry picking with a series, but its not in my nature, hence "discontinuitying" being a term I'd never heard before. And Neo, I asked what it meant in the thread for that very reason, telling me to look up irrelevant terms before I respond is just another example of your dickery.

All you offer is "No" or the occasional invalid argument that it retcons something -- even though it's not affecting anything that happened in the past at all -- or that it can't happen now since it's never happened before, despite the film being full of things that had never happened before and despite the very explanations you've proposed to try explaining Cloud's lost geostigma requiring something to happen that had never happened before.

And this is still the case, last I looked, despite you posting a response to Tres before me. I seriously doubt we'll see anything different at this point.

And I'm pretty sure we see quite a bit of JENOVA's shit getting fucked up in the original game.

Excellent point, and one that hadn't come up yet for some reason (unless I missed something). After the fight with Jenova-Birth, we're even treated to a scene of the "arm of Jenova" flashing and disappearing, a common means of showing that something has died outside of battle as I recall. So those cells at least seem to have been destroyed, and fairly easily at that.

I've already offered you an illustration of Optimus Primal and Megatron's final transformations from "Beast Wars" --

Spoiler

one involving the Autobox Matrix and the other the original Megatron's spark.

What makes this different from those events? Why don't the two characters go back to the forms they were in prior?

I didn't even watch Beast Wars, and once I looked it up I got what you meant Tres. It made perfect sense as an analogy to me. Lemme make it more generic (read that as "dumb it down" for others who didn't get it or cba to look up the info: Subject gets power-up, reaps benefits. Power-up is removed, benefits remain.

In fairness, doesn't your opening post and the existence of this thread treat Cloud losing his JENOVA cells as the current idea? That's what most people who have thought about it believe, right? You're suggesting an alternative to the "established" understanding, no?

Doesn't that mean you're in the Creationist spot in this debate and need to be the one to step forward?

Agreed, among the fans at least the understanding appears to be that Cloud no longer has Jenova cells post-AC/C. Outside this forum, those I know who are aware of the story, be it my own level of fan-infatuation with it or simply aware with no particular love, or even those who hated it but did know the story, the consensus is that the rain killed/destroyed the J-cells. So indeed, it seems you are the occupying the Creationist niche to me, mate. Same basic technique to debating from that niche too "I've got no proof at all, but even if you do have proof for your end I'm still right!"

EG and I obviously haven't been afraid to debate with you, nor have we withheld our reasoning at any point. For God's sake, we're still asking you to properly explain your claim that the cells don't remain free-floating within the body.[/QUOTE]

Not expecting a coherent response, personally, but indeed that's all I'm asking at this point. And even if you could prove this tidbit, I wouldn't be convinced that the benefits the fusion with those cells would provide would disappear instantly if they were separated and destroyed.

Moving on now to NB's post:

Wow, way to take that out of the context of the ENTIRE PARAGRAPH FOLLOWING IT.

I read it. It didn't change anything of note.

Well, you're wrong. New additions to a story ARE retcons. Seriously, this isn't something you can really debate. Did you read that page, by any chance?

Well, you're a bitch. Serious dude, your mouthy way of beginning a paragraph just might get you in trouble someday if you talk to people like that out loud. I did read that page, which is why I was willing to accept the way you use the word retcon. But again, in popular use of the word at the very least, it does not refer to a new event taking place in the present timeframe of a story, only to changes made to what occurred in that story's past.

What? That's not even a valid comparison. No one ever TRIED before.

By the same token, no one ever really TRIED to remove J-cells from a person's body before. So if we can't tell what would have happened if someone had tried to neutralize Sephiroth's will with magic before, you can't say we know what would happen if someone actively tried to remove/destroy Jenova cells nor what would happen if they succeeded.

As you said, we are effectively told this when told how Reunion works. It is not the same thing as seeing the Geostigma infection disappear & concluding, "Oh, I guess Cloud no longer has Jenova cells."

We used the same processes of deductive/inductive reasoning and logic to get to both points. One is closer to being explicitly stated than the other, but the analogy works fine for me.

Does the story say anything about SOLDIERs having 2 different types of cells? No, it does not.

Why would it? Tres never inferred that the story should say anything about two different kinds of cells. The story is referring to the cells of the SOLDIERs themselves, not referring to Jenova's cells. Hell, to me that further illustrates that, while they have a definite impact on the host's cells, the J-cells are separate. But on that point, I must admit my bias definitely colors my concept of the matter and it is in no way evidence of my point.

That may have been a slight quote botch on my part. Hollander does state that Zack's SOLDIER conditioning causes the "S cells" introduced to him to "deteriorate," this is true. However, it is Hojo who tells us that the Degeneration is a result of an unstable genetic structure. Between Hojo's explanation that the cells alter the genetic code & Hollander's statement that they "deteriorate" in SOLDIERs, one can conclude that they do not remain free-floating in the body.

Maybe you should look those quotes up before you post. See, not much fun when someone turns your own dickery back on you is it? On this, I have to ask, does Hollander know what he's talking about in your points or not? You say he's correct in that SOLDIER conditioning causes S cells to deteriorate, but at the same time you claim virtually everything else he says is bullshit. Pick one, is he competent concerning the subject matter of the project he took part in or not?[/QUOTE]

Also, if indeed the cells deteriorate in SOLDIERs, how does that = them fusing with the host? To me this sounds more like the cells are mutating the host and giving them the SOLDIER benefits and then... well deterioration speaks of death to me. I'm at a loss for how Cloud would still have the cells at all by the time of AC/C, seven years after the infusion, if this is the case.

No. What this forum believes=/=established information.

This forum is indeed not the be-all-end-all of FFVII knowledge. But, more correct information and plausible speculation is found here, imo, than anywhere else I've gone. And aside from that entirely, people I know outside the forum also hold the same belief regarding the destruction of Cloud's J-cells. Until the creators make a statement on the matter, the fans are the ones who establish what information is correct and what isn't. The majority is what I'd call "established" in cases like this.

I'd like to say that, simply because no one else is currently arguing from your side of the debate does not = you being wrong. For instance (again using the LTD as an analogy) if at one time Clerith had been in the majority, it wouldn't have proven they were right just because they had more people who believed it. This is in no way a battle of "more people think my way than yours" at all.

I said, "Cloud having Jenova cells" was never retconned. Besides, those hypotheticals exist only to disprove the notion that Great Gospel HAS to destroy the cells.

Cloud having Jenova cells was never retconned, by the definition of retcon we're using. He still has his J-cells in the OG, and for most of AC/C. They are destroyed very near the end of the film, in a new development that occurs during an ongoing story. And your hypotheticals being hypothetical means that they're not the one and only truth you seem so enamored with, that J-cells CAN'T be destroyed. You say they don't have to be destroyed to cure Geostigma, and yet you have yet to explain with a convincing argument that the methods you theorize on could be done, let alone that they were done. On the other hand, our arguments basically go "magic rain makes bad cells go bye-bye" with more sophistication. It's not too different, really, from "a wizard did it" but really, sometimes a wizard did do it. Magic in a work of fiction can be twisted to fix anything in classic deus ex machina style, and we've seen it done before in this series (Holy). If magic from the Planet can fight off and destroy a fucking meteor big enough to cause an extinction level event on impact, I have no difficulty believing it can get destroy foreign cells causing harm to a living being.

...The black pus & shit?

The black pus and sores aren't what I'd call "diseased tissue," rather they are just symptoms of the syndrome. In all honesty, it may be erroneous to call Geostigma a "disease" at all. Being that it is caused by a pathogen, J-cells, this may be debatable however.

Also, if we go by your theory and the cells fuse with the host's cells, then by process of cell division we'd assume those fused cells would eventually infest all cells of that type within the body. For instance, if the J-cells fuse with blood cells, they'd eventually be present in the entire bloodstream. If they fuse with all types of cells, then they'd be present throughout the entire body. So, if that's the case, why does everyone excrete black puss in a different spot? Most of the stigma victims seen in the film and OtWTaS were presumably infected with J-cells through skin contact or inhalation during the Lifestream's outpouring at the end of the OG, or through ingestion of tainted water afterward. So if the J-cells fuse with the type of cells they come in contact with, it seems likely that puss would ooze from the skin, respiratory system, or digestive system respectively. If they fuse with all cells, then infected individuals would eventually be a walking mass of black puss and sores.

Then again, I think Tres already asked you why Cloud in particular showed the same localized sores and excretion of puss as all other stigma victims, and we never got a convincing explanation. So I would guess we still won't for this expanded critique of your theory concerning cellular fusion. Just as I never got a real explanation for how the Reunion could take place, and the cells return to form a whole again, if indeed they are permanently fused to their host's cells. Or really much convincing explanation of anything, frankly.

I mean no offense this time, NB, I already gave the dose of attitude against attitude I thought you deserved in this post. But whether it offends you or not: If you were trying to educate us on the "truth" about the fate of Cloud's J-cells at the end of AC/C... fail.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I don't have time to reply to your whole post yet, NB, but, yes, I did read that page. If you had, you'd know that additions are retcons when added to events in the past. You can't have retroactive continuity without dealing with the past.

Also, I'm really not seeing any sign that JENOVA's cells leaped out of Seph when he was beaten so he could turn back into Kadaj.

By the way, concerning your overall claim that the cells are indestructible, how exactly do you explain the "500 years later" ending of FFVII under that assumption? Ifalna said the planet would not heal as long as JENOVA was there. So how did it heal if JENOVA can't be destroyed?

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

How did I not think of the 500 years later thing? Considering Jenova had already lived on the Planet in one state or another for 2,000 years or so prior to FFVII, not to mention however long it might have existed before arriving there, it seems unlikely to me that it and all its cells would die of old age in that time.

 

[Ryushikaze]

I'm still largely amused that the basis of a lot of this nonsense is 'It's never been done before, so it can't be done', a subversion of such an idea is oftentimes present in Final Fantasies, especially in FFX, in which no summoner has ever succesfully defeated Sin without a final Aeon, and no summoner has ever truly destroyed Sin.

Lo and behold, you do it in your party.
In FFIV:TA, the big bad has never been defeated, has reputedly destroyed worlds before. Lo and behold, you defeat him.
Hell, in FF1, No 'You' has ever been succesful in defeating Chaos and sundering the time loop. This time, you did.
The idea that the planet has FINALLY found a way to safely kill Jenova cells without killing anything else really doesn't strike me as a stretch, and it seems far simpler than disabling the psionic transmission ability of the cells while leaving the rest of it intact.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

And there's the problem EG and I are having with your side of this discussion. Your argument just comes back to "No" every time.

Wow, way to take that out of the context of the ENTIRE PARAGRAPH FOLLOWING IT.

Which was addressed by the rest of the paragraph following the segment of mine you quoted.

What? That's not even a valid comparison. No one ever TRIED before.

The Lifestream never made any attempt whatsoever to deal with Sephiroth? Even though his body had been dissolved in it once and then reconstructed because his will was strong enough?

And Aerith never tried either, despite a good chunk of Case of the Lifestream being about that very thing: the planet and then Aerith being unable to defeat Sephiroth's will and the Negative Lifestream? Aerith was able to purify Negative Lifestream in that story, but not nearly fast enough or on a big enough scale to halt Sephiroth's influence.

And like EG said: When did anyone ever try removing JENOVA cells from a person's body prior to AC/C?

Does the story say anything about SOLDIERs having 2 different types of cells? No, it does not.

As Kilmister was calling attention to cells of relevance to the subject at hand, even if there were, it would be out of place for him to be talking about other cells, wouldn't it? In any event, it does seem clear that there's more than one kind of cell in those with geostigma: "After examining the patients I found that a number of their cells resemble those found in SOLDIERs." Seems reasonable to assume that if it's true for one set of people with JENOVA cells it would be true for the other, especially since we know the symptoms are identical in both. Likewise, the cure should probably have a similar effect.

Between Hojo's explanation that the cells alter the genetic code & Hollander's statement that they "deteriorate" in SOLDIERs, one can conclude that they do not remain free-floating in the body.

Deterioration doesn't really imply fusion.

No. What this forum believes=/=established information.

You know very well that this idea isn't seen only on this forum (your opening post certainly doesn't suggest you only think you've seen it here), and we weren't discussing "established information." We were discussing established common understandings, per the analogy you cast involving Creationists.

I said, "Cloud having Jenova cells" was never retconned.

No one here is saying it was.

...The black pus & shit?

Pretty sure pus isn't something you heal.

 

[Neo Bahamut]

I'm still largely amused that the basis of a lot of this nonsense is 'It's never been done before, so it can't be done', a subversion of such an idea is oftentimes present in Final Fantasies, especially in FFX, in which no summoner has ever succesfully defeated Sin without a final Aeon, and no summoner has ever truly destroyed Sin.

And how did they defeat Sin? They found out the trick to its ressurrection, went inside, & used it against it. It's not "no one did it before," it's "no one COULD do it before." The ability shouldn't just "poof" out of midair. And there are plenty of counterexamples. Exdeath could never be defeated by ordinary means & he was defeated when he succumbed to the Void. Adel couldn't be defeated prior to her imprisonment, but was weakened by it. Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but don't you hold that the end of Dissidia is supposed to explain how the WsoL could defeat Garland?

Which was addressed by the rest of the paragraph following the segment of mine you quoted.

It's still disengenuous--no, outright lying--to say that my entire argument comes down to "no" when there is a whole paragraph of reasoning following it.

As for the "overall claim that Jenova cells can't be destroyed," that's actually a misnomer, but I can't edit the title to something else like, say, "Cloud Still Has Jenova Cells, Damn It!"

Lastly, you can't see cells. They're microscopic. What exits Sephiroth is black vapor & feathers. Granted, I can't actually say what those things "mean" in the grander sense, but you asked me how I would explain it. Of course, it does stand to reason that if Kadaj+Jenova=Sephiroth, then Kadaj=Sephiroth-Jenova.

 

[Neo Bahamut]

Which was addressed by the rest of the paragraph following the segment of mine you quoted.



The Lifestream never made any attempt whatsoever to deal with Sephiroth? Even though his body had been dissolved in it once and then reconstructed because his will was strong enough?

That's not what you said. You said, "defeat his will through magic."

And Aerith never tried either, despite a good chunk of Case of the Lifestream being about that very thing: the planet and then Aerith being unable to defeat Sephiroth's will and the Negative Lifestream? Aerith was able to purify Negative Lifestream in that story, but not nearly fast enough or on a big enough scale to halt Sephiroth's influence.

I also recall that she wouldn't dare confront Sephiroth directly because he was too damn powerful. So, no, she didn't try.

And like EG said: When did anyone ever try removing JENOVA cells from a person's body prior to AC/C?

Did anyone ever try to destroy Jenova? Yes. Did it work? No.


As Kilmister was calling attention to cells of relevance to the subject at hand, even if there were, it would be out of place for him to be talking about other cells, wouldn't it? In any event, it does seem clear that there's more than one kind of cell in those with geostigma: "After examining the patients I found that a number of their cells resemble those found in SOLDIERs." Seems reasonable to assume that if it's true for one set of people with JENOVA cells it would be true for the other, especially since we know the symptoms are identical in both. Likewise, the cure should probably have a similar effect.

Look at how easy it would be: "A number of cells in Geostigma resemble certain cells found in SOLDIER." The claim of irrelevency is--well, irrelevent--when establishing this fact, which is apparently important to a major event in the story, can be done without derailing Case of Shinra at all. Also, that's the point. SOME of the cells in Geostigma victims (the ones infused with Jenova's genes) resemble those found in SOLDIER.

Deterioration doesn't really imply fusion.

You have to put Hollander's & Hojo's lines together. There's also the fact that the G Clone drastically changes as a result of the introduction of the "S cells."

You know very well that this idea isn't seen only on this forum (your opening post certainly doesn't suggest you only think you've seen it here), and we weren't discussing "established information." We were discussing established common understandings, per the analogy you cast involving Creationists.

I HAVE only seen it here. I know of no FFVII fan who is not a member of this board who has seen that scene & come to that conclusion. In fact, if I bring up the idea outside of this board, people respond with absolute dumbfoundedness.

I am discussing established information.

I have no idea what my analogy has to do with this. All it said was, "Not all theories should be treated equally." There weren't really "roles" to reverse, so I'm not sure why that's like the latest thing to do in this argument.



Pretty sure pus isn't something you heal.

You know very well it isn't actually pus (because pus isn't black), it's discharge related to the Geostigma sores.

 

[Neo Bahamut]

And Neo, I asked what it meant in the thread for that very reason, telling me to look up irrelevant terms before I respond is just another example of your dickery.

And this is another example of your reading failure. I directed that at Tres because of his remark that "you can't do that because you aren't part of the staff." Yes I damn well can. It's BECAUSE I'm not part of the staff that I can discontinuity the work. I usually choose not to, though. Also, before going any further, I believe it's important to point out that the discontinuity thing was not in any of the 4 arguments.

So those cells at least seem to have been destroyed, and fairly easily at that.

After Jenova Absolute died, there were still cells around in the form of Jenova's "head." Furthermore, I highly doubt that a Jenova death means that all of the cells died. When we see Sephiroth die, that is not the case.

Same basic technique to debating from that niche too "I've got no proof at all, but even if you do have proof for your end I'm still right!"

Christ on a bike, you do not have proof. All you have is a bunch of speculation. Even if I didn't have any proof, which I do, I would still be more probably correct by default, because you have not met the burden of proof for the change to the storyline.

Well, you're a bitch. Serious dude, your mouthy way of beginning a paragraph just might get you in trouble someday if you talk to people like that out loud. I did read that page, which is why I was willing to accept the way you use the word retcon.

How is it that you're not able to distinguish when I'm talking to Tres? Seriously.

Why would it? Tres never inferred that the story should say anything about two different kinds of cells.

Follow me, here: If you're asserting that Jenova cells work a certain way to back up the assertion that you can lose the cells (&, by extension, the ill effects thereof) but still retain the abilities, then that information needs to be presented somewhere. Otherwise, it's an asspull.

Maybe you should look those quotes up before you post. See, not much fun when someone turns your own dickery back on you is it?

Only I wasn't a smartass about it. I did not try to save face with some "it's your fault" bullshit. I said, quite frankly, that I made a mix-up. So you are not "turning my dickery back on me," you are simply supplying your own dickery.

You say he's correct in that SOLDIER conditioning causes S cells to deteriorate, but at the same time you claim virtually everything else he says is bullshit. Pick one, is he competent concerning the subject matter of the project he took part in or not?

It's not an all-or-nothing thing. Here's how it breaks down: We know that Hollander is right about the deterioration of the cells because, well, we see the result. Hollander is an incompetent fuck, but you can't argue with the giant monster that results.

In the same token, we know that Hollander is likely wrong about the S Cells thing because he's been wrong about the Jenova cells' capabilities TWICE now.

I'm at a loss for how Cloud would still have the cells at all by the time of AC/C, seven years after the infusion, if this is the case.

Because if a cell "deteriorates," it can't maintain its form, & thus, cannot remain free-floating in the body. As well, as I mentioned earlier, a Jenova cell injection can be thought of in terms of the Sephiroth clones.

Someone who is said to "have" Jenova cells doesn't literally have Jenova cells. They have the genetic traits that resulted from the Jenova cell infusion.

Someone who is said to be a "Sephiroth clone" isn't literally a clone of Sephiroth.

This forum is indeed not the be-all-end-all of FFVII knowledge. But, more correct information and plausible speculation is found here, imo, than anywhere else I've gone.

And I would disagree with you. This is just anecdotal evidence, I admit, but I was once told here that the feathers at the end of AC/C were "obviously manifestations of Sephiroth's spirit" & nobody contested it but me. I acknowledge that any number of variables could have affected my perception of this board's information, but to be fair, we are arguing from opinion in this section.

They are destroyed very near the end of the film, in a new development that occurs during an ongoing story.

A new development that does not properly explain whose ass the ability to destroy Jenova was pulled from.

And your hypotheticals being hypothetical means that they're not the one and only truth

This is beginning to annoy me. People, when I use a hypothetical argument to say, "it doesn't necessarily HAVE to work that way," I mean just that. The hypotheticals are not part of the assertion. They are meant to provide counters to the logic that x has 1 & only 1 solution.

you seem so enamored with, that J-cells CAN'T be destroyed.

I should ammend that slightly: As far as AC/C, Jenova cannot be destroyed. That's about all we can really "know" right now.

have yet to explain with a convincing argument that the methods you theorize on could be done, let alone that they were done.

Well, YOU feel the hypotheticals are unconvincing anyway. And let me ask you this: How does Great Gospel heal poison? Silence? Petrification? HP? Grant invincibility?

We've never been given a mechanism for how Great Gospel works before. It just does.

Also, if we go by your theory and the cells fuse with the host's cells, then by process of cell division we'd assume those fused cells would eventually infest all cells of that type within the body.

In real life, we have a similar condition, cancer, which tells us that it doesn't exactly work that way.

So if the J-cells fuse with the type of cells they come in contact with, it seems likely that puss would ooze from the skin, respiratory system, or digestive system respectively. If they fuse with all cells, then infected individuals would eventually be a walking mass of black puss and sores.

3 things:

1. I argue infusion only in the case of SOLDIER conditioning.
2. We do see that happen. The guy who dies in AC/C is oozing from mother fucking everywhere.
3. They would die before that point. Like the guy in Point 2.

Then again, I think Tres already asked you why Cloud in particular showed the same localized sores and excretion of puss as all other stigma victims, and we never got a convincing explanation.

Yeah, you did. You just didn't grasp it & then insisted that your failure to comprehend was somehow my fault for "communicating badly."

Just as I never got a real explanation for how the Reunion could take place, and the cells return to form a whole again, if indeed they are permanently fused to their host's cells.

I don't make shit up just to look like I know what I'm talking about. If there is no clear explanation, you aren't getting one. That's how shit like "Cloud has ridiculously high spirit energy" comes about.

Or really much convincing explanation of anything, frankly.

The irony. It burns.

I mean no offense this time, NB, I already gave the dose of attitude against attitude I thought you deserved in this post.

Cool?

But whether it offends you or not: If you were trying to educate us on the "truth" about the fate of Cloud's J-cells at the end of AC/C... fail.

No offense taken. After 14 pages of this, I would agree with you that it was a failure. But I don't entirely take credit for that failure. I can only say, "we can't say what the sizzling means beyond the curing of Geostigma." If I KEEP saying that &, for some reason, the argument is STILL going in a completely different direction, well, fuck me in the ass. At that point, I don't know what to do.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

NB, sorry I can't get arsed to quote you directly. But I am sure you'll know what the responses and questions are in response to. Firstly, the Lifestream almost certainly did try to negate Sephiroth's will in order to send out Holy. All magic comes from the Lifestream. Anything the Lifestream does could thereby be considered "magic." So even using the phrasing "defeat his will through magic" the question is still accurate, and the magic in question being the source of all such magic on the Planet only makes it more impressive that said magic failed to defeat said will. So suck on that.

Actually, as was pointed out, a very large part of CoLSW is about Aerith's attempts to deal with Sephiroth and his actions after death. When she runs into him face to face (if you're just a coherent bit of spirit energy do you have a face within the Lifestream?) she is forced to flee. When she purifies the Negative Lifestream, its not enough to counteract the rate at which it is created. She did try. And (unsurprisingly considering that the Planet itself couldn't do it), she failed.

The question was when did anyone try to remove Jenova cells. You assert that someone did, so I say again... when? Who was it? If you're right, and someone has tried, then yes they did fail. It does not follow that the task is impossible. Many examples have been made of seemingly impossible things being accomplished in the FF series.

I spoke of a number of people outside this forum that believe Cloud's J-cells are gone. Just for shits and giggles I did a web search on the topic and found other forums where the idea seemed prevalent, based on the posts I read. The fact that the people you talk to outside of this forum agree with your perspective and are "dumbfounded" does not make you are right. And the whole concept of who is the Creationist and who is the accepted scientific perspective in this discussion isn't really relevant, which I assume is why you're focusing on it so heavily, since it doesn't hurt your position nor require you to supply anything other than "no" and some unproven assertions in the actual debate.

From Wikipedia: Pus is a whitish-yellow, yellow or yellow-brown exudate produced by vertebrates during inflammatory pyogenic bacterial infections.[1] An accumulation of pus in an enclosed tissue space is known as an abscess, while a visible collection of pus within or beneath the epidermis is known as a pustule or pimple. Pus is produced from the dead and living cells which travel into the intercellular spaces around the affected cells.

I'm not even sure what the hell you're going for with regards to Killmister's lines in CoS anymore. I'm sure hearing the reasoning behind it will make me feel dumber at this point though.

Not seeing how putting Hollander and Hojo's lines together makes "deterioration" sound more like "fusion of cells" either.

Considering that Jenova cells are not bacteria, as well as this definition not listing black as a color, I believe we can safely say that the black shit that stigma victims leak is not literal pus. It is, however, similar in enough in nature that we generally use that term when describing it. I don't see why you're suddenly being picky about whether it is pus or just very like pus.

Either way, I agree the substance is not something that can be healed. We could probably just, y'know, wash it off, as Marlene does for Denzel during the opening. The black shit is just gross, it isn't the fatal part of the stigma. Now, during contact with the water that wells up in Aerith's Church, be it in the pool or in the form of rain, the sores that excrete this pus-like substance are closed up, and the substance they leak is destroyed. Furthermore, the constant sensations of pain and fatigue that are stated to be a part of Geostigma also immediately vanish. So, why show the pus evaporating/vaporizing/being destructified/whatever instead of just washing off and the sores being magically healed? Could just be a groovy visual effect, something that looks cool. But, to me it still shows off the water's ability to destroy physical material. And Jenova cells are physical material.

So I ask again, if you can't negate Sephiroth's will, even after he's come back from the dead and immediately killed again, and you can't ditch Cloud's Jenova cells without him being too weak to kill Sephiroth... then how is his Geostigma gone exactly?

Edit: Alright, now you're really starting to bug me dude.

If you want to me to know when you're talking just to Tres or just to me, try beginning a paragraph with @:[insert name here]. Or, considering this is a public thread, if you wanna talk to just one person then fucking pm them. Otherwise, I can and will respond to anything you say as I find appropriate and assume it was intended for everyone in the conversation. This is the kinda thing that causes you to be misunderstood NB, you don't make yourself clear. And whether you were talking to me or Tres my comment stands, if you talk to people like that out loud someday someone just might knock you on your ass.

With regards to the Jenova entities fought and killed in game, I clearly said "those cells" rather than "all extant cells". I did not say that all Jenova cells outside Cloud's body in game were destroyed, the existence of AC/C makes the survival of portions, both in the form of Jenova's "head" and those that survived to be spread by the Lifestream rather obvious. But it's clear some of them were destroyed, and rather easily at that. Besides which, you changed goalposts at some point and are now saying that J-cells can be destroyed, but Cloud still has his. So why are you even arguing this point considering that?

You have no more proof of anything than we do. I should say that, "circumstancial" as you may find it, we do have something. You've so far given me nothing of any merit. Accusing me of having nothing more but wild speculation sounds like projecting to me.

My assertion that J-cells can have beneficial effects that last beyond their removal from the host is more of an asspull than your theory that they are fused to the host's cells? Pot-kettle-black much? So you strung some quotes from CC and CoS together and decided they prove J-cells have to fuse with the host to survive, as if we hadn't seen them live through far worse than the inside of a body. Why, at the time of the OG, is Shinra still calling them "Jenova Cells" and not giving them a new name then? They're bonded to the cells of elite SOLIDERs, but S-cells are taken considering Sephiroth. So why not call them M-Cells, for Military Cells? Or JB-cells, for Jenova-bonded cells? Did they do that? No, they call them fucking Jenova cells, because that's what they are, living cells of the creature Professor Gast named Jenova, which are able to separate, and remain controlled by the will of the creature itself or later on Sephiroth, and are then able to return to reform the whole at a later time. A feat they could not bloody well accomplish if they were fused with their host.

We've been given enough info on the original Great Gospel to infer how it works. It's, get this... MAGIC! Aerith kneels and takes the pose of someone praying. The Planet responds by sending to her what was then the penultimate restorative magic (before Holy) and it magically removes toxins/heals wounds/etc while enveloping her and her allies in protective magic for a time. Seriously, are you too thick to understand a simple mechanic like "its magic" or what?

You do communicate poorly, and every time you try to put that off on me it makes me want to work to understand you less and less. Obviously you're not providing a conclusive, convincing argument if the people you debate with see your words and believe you're saying something entirely different than what you're shooting for. And you play the "you just aren't getting it" care far more often than for me alone, let alone Tres, to just be mistaking you now and then. Thus, you clearly are having issues communicating. Make yourself clear or gtfo. I'm sick of this excuse.

You can't explain how the Reunion can occur if the cells are fused with the host, and yet with the exception of Cloud and presumably some real Ex-SOLDIERs who could resist the Reunion Instinct it did indeed happen. And that doesn't strike you as a giant fucking hole in your logic? Tres was right, you are batshit crazy if you are trying to educate the people if you can't see this.

The only irony is that our arguments haven't convinced you. Taken that way, yes it is indeed an ironic statement, which is fine by me since I find irony to be one of life's better gifts. Doesn't change the fact that you're taking an uncomfirmed theory of yours as fact simply because destroying J-cells inside a body is something that couldn't be done prior to the time that we see Geostigma cured, using largely unfounded assertions that J-cells are not free floating within the body as evidence, and repeatedly claiming that Cloud's strength and such would decrease if he were to lose them somehow because they're not free floating.

Things fucking change dude. Characters develop, form relationships, increase in skill. New events take place. If you want a static image, that's called a snapshot. Me, I'll continue with the story, where things actually progress and change.

And thank you for agreeing that the only thing we can reasonably say is that Geostigma is cured. You have just admitted that you are speculating just as wildly as the rest of us on the matter. I accept this concession. I will decline the offer to fuck you in the ass though, you've done that just fine for yourself.

 

[Neo Bahamut]

NB, sorry I can't get arsed to quote you directly.

I've only been doing it for the past few posts because it's easier. I really don't like to do it that way.

Firstly, the Lifestream almost certainly did try to negate Sephiroth's will in order to send out Holy. All magic comes from the Lifestream. Anything the Lifestream does could thereby be considered "magic." So even using the phrasing "defeat his will through magic" the question is still accurate, and the magic in question being the source of all such magic on the Planet only makes it more impressive that said magic failed to defeat said will. So suck on that.

A fair point, but there was a point made in Case of the Lifestream that the Lifestream around Sephiroth was like a void. It's possible that, like the Weapons, the Lifestream couldn't do shit to Sephiroth.

Actually, as was pointed out, a very large part of CoLSW is about Aerith's attempts to deal with Sephiroth and his actions after death. When she runs into him face to face (if you're just a coherent bit of spirit energy do you have a face within the Lifestream?) she is forced to flee. When she purifies the Negative Lifestream, its not enough to counteract the rate at which it is created. She did try. And (unsurprisingly considering that the Planet itself couldn't do it), she failed.

My point, though, is that she did not attempt to directly defeat Sephiroth's will. However, it could be argued that, if she has the power to heal Negative Lifestream, she could do it on a large scale if she had a way of applying it over an area, which is where Great Gospel comes in. However, I also believe that Case of the Lifestream just explained her as having assauged the hatred of the souls, rather than countering Sephiroth's will.

The question was when did anyone try to remove Jenova cells. You assert that someone did, so I say again... when? Who was it? If you're right, and someone has tried, then yes they did fail.

Approximately 2000 years ago when the Cetra ruined its day.

It does not follow that the task is impossible. Many examples have been made of seemingly impossible things being accomplished in the FF series

.

And many examples have also been made that the impossible aspect of the task is not directly achieved, but bypassed with a simpler method. Ex: Exdeath can't be beaten into submission, but the Void can certainly destroy him.

The fact that the people you talk to outside of this forum agree with your perspective and are "dumbfounded" does not make you are right.

I never said it did. I was countering the idea this this is the most accepted theory & I must have seen it everywhere. Also, don't take it personally, but I don't really trust your research. Not only have I not seen it personally, a few minutes' observation can be deceiving.

And the whole concept of who is the Creationist and who is the accepted scientific perspective in this discussion isn't really relevant, which I assume is why you're focusing on it so heavily, since it doesn't hurt your position nor require you to supply anything other than "no" and some unproven assertions in the actual debate.

I call Shennanigans. Of course I know it's not relevent. I'm "focusing on it so much" because you 2 keep bringing it up.

I'm not even sure what the hell you're going for with regards to Killmister's lines in CoS anymore. I'm sure hearing the reasoning behind it will make me feel dumber at this point though.

He very clearly says that SOLDIERs have cells that are similar to some of the cells in Geostigma victims. He does not say that there are some cells in SOLDIERs that are similar to some cells in Geostigma victims. In other words, the idea that SOLDIERs have their own body cells which are infused with Jenova's genes IN ADDITION to free-floating Jenova cells is unfounded. It is not stated or implied anywhere in the story. In fact, this is one of the locations that seems to outright deny that.

Not seeing how putting Hollander and Hojo's lines together makes "deterioration" sound more like "fusion of cells" either.

Deterioration=Cells do not maintain form.
Degredation is caused by an unstable genetic structure=Pretty self-explanatory, really. Why are their genetic structures unstable? Because they've been altered. From what? Experiments involving Jenova cells.

Considering that Jenova cells are not bacteria, as well as this definition not listing black as a color, I believe we can safely say that the black shit that stigma victims leak is not literal pus. It is, however, similar in enough in nature that we generally use that term when describing it. I don't see why you're suddenly being picky about whether it is pus or just very like pus.

Tres started it.* He nitpicked my usage of the word "pus" when he said it "isn't something you heal." Clearly, the outer signs of Geostigma are healed. That's like...the cornerstone of his argument.

*=What am I, five?

Now, during contact with the water that wells up in Aerith's Church, be it in the pool or in the form of rain, the sores that excrete this pus-like substance are closed up, and the substance they leak is destroyed.

And you say I'm picky...yes, that is what I meant.

But, to me it still shows off the water's ability to destroy physical material.

All we can be certain of is that it shows the healing of Geostigma.

So I ask again, if you can't negate Sephiroth's will, even after he's come back from the dead and immediately killed again, and you can't ditch Cloud's Jenova cells without him being too weak to kill Sephiroth... then how is his Geostigma gone exactly?

How does Great Gospel heal poison? How does it heal silence? How does it heal HP? How does it grant invincibility?

Yes, that is the response you are going to get every time you ask that. It does not follow that Great/est Gospel has to be explained in-depth when it never has been before.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

You're probably replying to my edited post as I type this, and at this point I don't care. So without further ado, let's get right to it.

A fair point, but there was a point made in Case of the Lifestream that the Lifestream around Sephiroth was like a void. It's possible that, like the Weapons, the Lifestream couldn't do shit to Sephiroth.

That was my whole point, despite being the sum existence of all life and their consciousness/energy, as well as the source of all magic, the Lifestream couldn't do shit to Sephiroth.

My point, though, is that she did not attempt to directly defeat Sephiroth's will. However, it could be argued that, if she has the power to heal Negative Lifestream, she could do it on a large scale if she had a way of applying it over an area, which is where Great Gospel comes in. However, I also believe that Case of the Lifestream just explained her as having assauged the hatred of the souls, rather than countering Sephiroth's will.

Sephiroth wills that they be consumed with hate and form a Negative Lifestream. Aerith assuages that hate and dispels portions of said NLS. That sounds like confronting his will, maybe less directly than a direct confrontation between them, but its still an indirect means of doing so. And no, that is not where Great Gospel comes in. Great Gospel, as I define that term, does not come in at all. What does come in is a means of healing the condition which causes people killed by it to form Negative Lifestream.

Let's look at it this way: Aerith requested the Planet help those suffering from Geostigma. Considering that this is explicitly in the Planet's best interests, it grants this request and allows Aerith to guide the flow of magic from within its flow. Because of this, when its fully released after Sephiroth's defeat, it takes the form of rain, very like unto what Aerith remembers of Great Gospel. With Sephiroth defeated and a cure for Geostigma now in place within her Church, she can go about dispelling what remains of the NLS now without it growing faster than she can keep up with. Or at all. Neither Great Gospel nor the Geostigma healing rain of AC/C did shit to the NLS within the Planet as far as we know. It only healed the stigma victims and played some part in the deaths of the SHM.

Approximately 2000 years ago when the Cetra ruined its day.

So now Cetra fighting Jenova and sealing it = Trying to remove J-cells from a person's body? Well color me surprised, cause I never heard that one before. Yes NB, the Cetra did fight and defeat Jenova. They sealed it up in the Northern Cave, hoping it'd stay there. And the "virus" it had unleashed on them still all but finished them off. I see nothing of them trying to remove the cells from their bodies, especially considering that they did not, apparently, realize that the disease was Jenova's cells for quite some time. This example doesn't hold up, you got another one?.

And many examples have also been made that the impossible aspect of the task is not directly achieved, but bypassed with a simpler method. Ex: Exdeath can't be beaten into submission, but the Void can certainly destroy him.

Allow me to counter: The void did consume Exdeath, and in turn spit out Neo-Exdeath, an even stronger and more ruthless version of the villain. And while it isn't known if he was destroyed in the end, Neo-Exdeath was then defeated in direct battle with Bartz and his party. So your example actually comes to something seemingly impossible made even more impossible and then being done anyway.

Also, I don't want to bring up the "established information" thing again since we agree its irrelevant, but I am offended that you assume my statement was entirely based on a couple minutes of observation. That check of other forums was only a few minutes, you're right there. The vast number of fellow FFVII fans I've known who also believe Cloud's J-cell count is down to 0? Those I have known for years, and they all said the same thing since the original AC came out. So fuck you on that one NB.

In other words, the idea that SOLDIERs have their own body cells which are infused with Jenova's genes IN ADDITION to free-floating Jenova cells is unfounded. It is not stated or implied anywhere in the story. In fact, this is one of the locations that seems to outright deny that.

Who said that SOLDIERs have body cells infused with JEnova's genes and free floating J-cells? I certainly didn't. I said that the J-cells remain free floating in the body and induce mutations in the host's genetic makeup which lead to superhuman attributes. I didn't say Jenova cells actually infuse the genes with their own cells, though the mutations I spoke of are likely based on Jenova's powers. The exception is Sephiroth, who actually did bond with Jenova's cells to become a human/Jenova hybrid. That's why they call his cells S-Cells. On a similar note, Genesis had mutations mimicking some of Jenova's powers induced into him by means other than direct Jenova exposure, using Gillian who had already been infused with J-cells as the base, hence G-Cells. You're the only one here saying the cells fuse with normal SOLDIERs at all.

Tres started it.* He nitpicked my usage of the word "pus" when he said it "isn't something you heal." Clearly, the outer signs of Geostigma are healed. That's like...the cornerstone of his argument.

*=What am I, five?

I'll get to the part about the pus in the next section, since its relevant there. I just wanted to thank you for saving me the trouble of asking if you're a five year old. And since I've been being somewhat cruel, I'll make sure you know that this time its playful ribbing rather than real dickery.

And you say I'm picky...yes, that is what I meant.

That was just making sure the process as I see it was understood. Didn't intend to sound picky.

All we can be certain of is that it shows the healing of Geostigma.

We can be certain of slightly more than that, namely that there were open sores and pus, then there was some sparkly green stuff going on, then the "pus," sores, pain, and weakness were all gone. What you call the cornerstone of Tres' argument regards the pus and sores. It was there, now its not. The rain is clearly able to destroy/banish/cause to disappear this physical matter. Saying that it only shows the healing of Geostigma doesn't change that we can in fact clearly see physical matter going from there to not there.

ow does Great Gospel heal poison? How does it heal silence? How does it heal HP? How does it grant invincibility?

Yes, that is the response you are going to get every time you ask that. It does not follow that Great/est Gospel has to be explained in-depth when it never has been before.

Scroll up a bit. You hadn't seen my edit when you wrote your reply, possibly because I was still writing it. I explained to the best of my ability how Great Gospel does all that. Now you explain how the Reunion is possible if the fucking J-cells are fused to host cells and have ceased to exist as separate entities.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Apologies for the teal deer in this post.

And how did they defeat Sin? They found out the trick to its ressurrection, went inside, & used it against it. It's not "no one did it before," it's "no one COULD do it before."

And that differs from what's being discussed here in what way?

The ability shouldn't just "poof" out of midair.

The way Aerith's ability to bring the Lifestream to the surface and use it as a weapon did? Or the way her ability to purify Negative Lifestream did?

How about Sephiroth's ability to return from the dead with his personality entirely intact? That one definitely meets both "No one did it before" and "No one could do it before."

The closest we'd seen to it on FFVII's world was the Gi Tribe, and they just came back as fiend-like entities.

It's still disengenuous--no, outright lying--to say that my entire argument comes down to "no" when there is a whole paragraph of reasoning following it.

Okay, let's look at the rest of your paragraph: "How the cells work is irrelevent. From what we know from the rest of the Compilation, which makes NO distinction between 'having Jenova's cells' & 'having Jenova's abilities' in cases of SOLDIER infusion, Cloud should have had a decrease in ability."

Basically just a really long version of "No." You restated your conclusion ("Cloud should have had a decrease in ability") and your claim that no distinction is made between having JENOVA's cells and having JENOVA's abilities when it comes to SOLDIER infusion, while true, was ignoring the likelihood that the cells of the host were mutated by the process (apparently true given that Gillian's genes were mapped onto Genesis's, passing along some of JENOVA's traits without actually giving him the cells) -- in which case the cells could be removed without Cloud suffering a decrease in ability.

As for the "overall claim that Jenova cells can't be destroyed," that's actually a misnomer, but I can't edit the title to something else like, say, "Cloud Still Has Jenova Cells, Damn It!"

Actually, you have been making the claim that JENOVA cells can't be destroyed. Hell, you make it again in your very next post:

Did anyone ever try to destroy Jenova? Yes. Did it work? No.

You said it earlier too:

Neither Aerith nor anyone else in the past had the power to destroy Jenova.

You're also still ignoring a piece of JENOVA clearly being destroyed in this scene from the original game, as well as the "500 years later" ending of FFVII, which shows us that JENOVA is gone. So it really doesn't matter whether you believe anyone in the original game's present era or prior was able to destroy any of JENOVA's cells -- the fact remains that the ending of the game shows that at some point the ability would come along.

That's something that wasn't there before you say -- yet it comes along. Thus, it's possible that it was during AC/C.

Lastly, you can't see cells. They're microscopic. What exits Sephiroth is black vapor & feathers. Granted, I can't actually say what those things "mean" in the grander sense, but you asked me how I would explain it.

The feathers had already "left" since he was flying around fighting with that wing. The most you've got there is the black smoke that pools off him, though that looks to be just Negative Lifestream. It has the same animation as the clouds in the sky as they dissipate above him.

Of course, it does stand to reason that if Kadaj+Jenova=Sephiroth, then Kadaj=Sephiroth-Jenova.

Not really. Kadaj's existence began from a Sephiroth who lacked JENOVA's cells's/a body anyway.That's not an insightful equation.

The fact that Sephiroth dies again seems the most simple reason for Kadaj's return.

In any event, the feathers that fall apparently disappear too.

That's not what you said. You said, "defeat his will through magic."

The Lifestream -- a supernatural substance and phenomena -- qualifies as "magic."

So, yes, that's exactly what I said.

I also recall that she wouldn't dare confront Sephiroth directly because he was too damn powerful. So, no, she didn't try.

Dude, read the story again. She spent a significant portion of what is a short story trying, but he was fucking shit up too fast for her to stop him, even with help from other spirits.

Confronting him directly is completely unnecessary to try doing something that didn't require confronting him directly. Is she confronting him directly when she pisses on Cloud and later Edge in AC/C?

Did anyone ever try to destroy Jenova? Yes. Did it work? No.

Except all those times that it did, you mean.

Look at how easy it would be: "A number of cells in Geostigma resemble certain cells found in SOLDIER." The claim of irrelevency is--well, irrelevent--when establishing this fact, which is apparently important to a major event in the story, can be done without derailing Case of Shinra at all.

Fair enough.

Also, that's the point. SOME of the cells in Geostigma victims (the ones infused with Jenova's genes) resemble those found in SOLDIER.

Yes, you're right. It is the point. Some of the cells in one group of people with JENOVA's cells resemble cells found in another group of people with JENOVA's cells. And both groups display identical geostigma symptoms.

So how is all of that an indication that the alien cells fuse with the host cells of one group but not the other?

You have to put Hollander's & Hojo's lines together.

That doesn't help, man. Obviously the JENOVA cells would alter the genetic code. If anything, that supports the idea that Cloud doesn't need them in order to retain their benefits.

The deterioration, if even true, doesn't support the idea either.

You're not really establishing anything that indicates the cells first deteriorate and then alter the genetic code, which would do more to suggest that maybe there's a fusion. It's as easy to believe -- if not easier, given the instant effects of the cells -- that the genetic code alters first, and then the deterioration of the JENOVA cells follows at an unidentified, unpredictable time thereafter.

I've not been able to find Hojo's line in the game, by the way. Can you provide the quote, please? I know I've seen an "unstable" quote somewhere, but I can't remember where.

There's also the fact that the G Clone drastically changes as a result of the introduction of the "S cells."

Which is really a point in favor of the notion that geostigma victims don't require an identical injection/infusion to that of SOLDIERs in order for their genetic code to be altered. If it can be done by eating hair, then absorbing the stuff through Lifestream tentacles (which had probably passed through the planet's own moisture, and inevitably would make contact with the body's own) or through drinking water should still count as an injection.

The word, after all, would only imply that some kind of liquid agent/solution has been utilized to administer the cells to the body.

I HAVE only seen it here. I know of no FFVII fan who is not a member of this board who has seen that scene & come to that conclusion. In fact, if I bring up the idea outside of this board, people respond with absolute dumbfoundedness.

Well, we obviously have no simple way of testing this. I know I've seen it suggested many times at GameFAQs, but there's really no way of either of us proving how common an understanding it is.

I have no idea what my analogy has to do with this. All it said was, "Not all theories should be treated equally."

In this case, perhaps they should be. I think EG and I are both making a good faith attempt to see things your way, but we're more convinced by the evidence pointing to the cells going away.

You know very well it isn't actually pus (because pus isn't black), it's discharge related to the Geostigma sores.

Discharge from a sore or wound is pus, man. It's simply a substance the body produces to contain and easily remove infectious material.

In any event, pus isn't only one color either. It can be white, yellow, green, blue, brown, red and any combination of those colors. When dealing with JENOVA cells, especially since the alien's cells are winning, it's safe to assume that it could be black.

Even if I didn't have any proof, which I do ...

No, you really don't. If you did, this would have been over long ago.

You have the same thing we do: Your interpretation of various pieces of circumstantial evidence. Though in your case you insist that your circumstantial evidence can be interpreted only one way while ignoring the existence of other circumstantial evidence that points elsewhere.

I would still be more probably correct by default, because you have not met the burden of proof for the change to the storyline.

"Change to the storyline"? You mean addition to. No one's talking about retcons but you because you don't understand the meaning of the word.

Also? Advent Children exists. Burden of proof for new things being able to happen met. Thanks.

Follow me, here: If you're asserting that Jenova cells work a certain way to back up the assertion that you can lose the cells (&, by extension, the ill effects thereof) but still retain the abilities, then that information needs to be presented somewhere.

And you were the one who's been arguing in favor of that concept, ironically, by bringing up plasmids and pointing out the gene mapping involved with Gillian-->Genesis and Genesis-->the Tsviets.

You say he's correct in that SOLDIER conditioning causes S cells to deteriorate, but at the same time you claim virtually everything else he says is bullshit. Pick one, is he competent concerning the subject matter of the project he took part in or not?

It's not an all-or-nothing thing. Here's how it breaks down: We know that Hollander is right about the deterioration of the cells because, well, we see the result. Hollander is an incompetent fuck, but you can't argue with the giant monster that results.

Actually, I think EG's referring to the deterioration of JENOVA cells inside people like Zack, not to the deterioration Genesis suffers. You're arguing that Hollander's right about the deterioration inside Zack.

Not that I'm endorsing anything Hollander says as fact. The guy's a dumbass. He fucked up with Genesis, he thought Angeal was perfect (nope, Sephiroth was still the superior product, and even Angeal and his copies can suffer degradation), he thought that JENOVA's pure cells could heal Genesis (we don't know if they ever tried them out while they were in Nibelheim, but it's likely that they did), then he thought that Sephiroth's cells would do the trick, and after trying S-Cells from Zack and all the other Sephiroth copies, Hollander concluded that "the last pure S-Cells" in Cloud would do it.

Honestly, while I believe that he believes he's right, I don't believe him about any of this, and I don't know that I even believe him about the degradation of JENOVA cells in Zack either. He only seems to have come to that conclusion as a way of explaining why the S-Cells in Zack didn't work.

So I take issue with you concluding that Hollander must have been right about this one thing and that this one thing must mean the fusion of JENOVA's deteriorating cells with the host's own cells -- despite one not necessarily leading to the other (deterioration-->fusion), and despite the deterioration explanation being there to explain something else he was wrong about anyway.

I'm at a loss for how Cloud would still have the cells at all by the time of AC/C, seven years after the infusion, if this is the case.

Because if a cell "deteriorates," it can't maintain its form, & thus, cannot remain free-floating in the body.

Then what "infection" is the body fighting off to cause geostigma?

Someone who is said to "have" Jenova cells doesn't literally have Jenova cells. They have the genetic traits that resulted from the Jenova cell infusion.

What about geostigma victims?

A fair point, but there was a point made in Case of the Lifestream that the Lifestream around Sephiroth was like a void. It's possible that, like the Weapons, the Lifestream couldn't do shit to Sephiroth.

No such point is made.

Also, the Lifestream's attempt to counter Sephiroth's will is mentioned, and Aerith actually had more success:

The woman discovered that there was a growing number of spirits within the Lifestream who refused to be absorbed by it. While they were different from the man's spirit, they rejected the Lifestream due to the same emotion. Hatred. Their feelings towards the planet were steeped in hatred, just like that man's. This is the result of his influence reaching the surface, she thought. The woman drew closer to the souls that had just entered the Lifestream, spirits filled with hate, and tried to heal them. Beneath the surface of enmity were hidden memories. Memories from their lives as normal people. While unremarkable, they had many joyous memories as well. She released those thoughts and dissolved them into the Lifestream. Having lost the core of their emotions, the surface animosity disappeared. The woman had found a solution, however more and more spirits steeped in spite appeared, and it was too much for her to bear.

So Aerith found a way to do something that the planet couldn't -- which, really, counters the logic you'd been working with since the beginning of this thread: "If none of the other Cetra could do it AND they had much better communication with the planet than Aerith, then she still could not logically have such abilities. Besides that, the planet ITSELF could not eliminate Jenova."

So, yeah, again, new things can happen, and Aerith can do stuff the Lifestream wasn't able to prior. Call it shit writing if you need to, but that's how things have gone down.

My point, though, is that she did not attempt to directly defeat Sephiroth's will. However, it could be argued that, if she has the power to heal Negative Lifestream, she could do it on a large scale if she had a way of applying it over an area, which is where Great Gospel comes in. However, I also believe that Case of the Lifestream just explained her as having assauged the hatred of the souls, rather than countering Sephiroth's will.

Hatred caused by Sephiroth, so it's his will that she's countering. She said it was his influence.

The spirits of geostigma's dead become the Negative Lifestream.

Tres started it.* He nitpicked my usage of the word "pus" when he said it "isn't something you heal." Clearly, the outer signs of Geostigma are healed. That's like...the cornerstone of his argument.

I nitpicked your suggestion of healing, actually, as pus isn't something that's healed. It's something to be discarded.

I'm not sure how I could be nitpicking your use of "pus" anyway as I've always called the excreted substance pus. That's clearly what it is.

Anyway, going back to your original statement ("I explained it to you right there that there was no reason to believe Sephiroth's will was thrown off. The cells could be sealed off inside of the body. The actual diseased tissue could be restored. The body's defenses could be improved. All of these would result in the healing of Geostigma, assuming they were true"), how does healing a sore end geostigma if the cause of the sore is left alone?

Unless you're saying all of these things happened together, in which case you're still calling for things that had never happened before to occur.

And like EG just said, the observation of the sparkly green effect is the cornerstone of my argument because "we can in fact clearly see physical matter going from there to not there."

Approximately 2000 years ago when the Cetra ruined its day.

Now that's seriously making shit up. Ifalna never once talks about trying to remove JENOVA's cells from anyone.

 

[Neo Bahamut]

Or, considering this is a public thread, if you wanna talk to just one person then fucking pm them.

Because I can't direct particular comments at particular people? I have to post everything related to multiple people & PM everything else? What?

Also, I'm pretty sure I've been using quotes. So...yeah.

Otherwise, I can and will respond to anything you say as I find appropriate and assume it was intended for everyone in the conversation.

Well, that sounds like bad communication on your part, not mine. When a person is obviously replying to a specific point, it's just asinine to assume they're directing that comment at everyone in the vacinity.

And whether you were talking to me or Tres my comment stands, if you talk to people like that out loud someday someone just might knock you on your ass.

What makes you think I don't? I think you fail to realize that attacking someone in the real world is a REALLY BAD IDEA. When the person you attacked or the witnesses reports it, do you really think the defense, "He pissed me off with his words" is going to stand up? You can get assault charges pressed on you for that. On the contrary, there's this thing called "free speech" that prevents you from being jailed for talking. Is it really worth it? Do you really think the speaker is the stupid person in that scenario?

All of this is of course beside the point, but as long as we're on our soapboxes, why not?

Besides which, you changed goalposts at some point and are now saying that J-cells can be destroyed, but Cloud still has his.

There really is a fine line between shifting the goal posts & ammending an argument. I realized the title could take focus off of the main argument long ago, which is why I tried to edit it. Of course, I couldn't. Also, it occurred to me that the title makes it sound as though there will never be a way to destroy Jenova cells ever, which is not at all what I wanted to suggest.

So why are you even arguing this point considering that?

I'm not. The point I'm arguing is that there is nothing we've seen so far that shows us Jenova cells could be destroyed. If they could, one would assume that Jenova would be dead by now. We do see the Life, Death, & Synthesis destroyed in VII, but as we've both recognized, cells do survive. So, that begs the question: How does the party kill these, exactly? If they hack it into pieces, do they necessarily destroy the cells? Or do they just separate them? As I said before, if one could just dissolve Jenova cells, one would assume that Jenova had been beaten a long time ago.

You have no more proof of anything than we do. I should say that, "circumstancial" as you may find it, we do have something. You've so far given me nothing of any merit. Accusing me of having nothing more but wild speculation sounds like projecting to me.

That you say this with absolute certainty is perhaps the most ridiculous thing I've heard this entire thread.

My assertion that J-cells can have beneficial effects that last beyond their removal from the host is more of an asspull than your theory that they are fused to the host's cells?

1. Because I have quotes that seem to indicate that whereas you have none.
2. Even allowing this point, the fact remains that, when you strip away all of the supposition, there is STILL absolutely NOTHING that suggests Cloud no longer has Jenova cells.

So you strung some quotes from CC and CoS together and decided they prove J-cells have to fuse with the host to survive, as if we hadn't seen them live through far worse than the inside of a body.

Woah, woah, what? When did I ever say "they have to fuse with the host to survive"? I just said that's what they do. Not why they do it.

Why, at the time of the OG, is Shinra still calling them "Jenova Cells" and not giving them a new name then?

Why do they call the Sephiroth clones--well, that--when they aren't clones? There's a reason I keep mentioning that example.

They're bonded to the cells of elite SOLIDERs, but S-cells are taken considering Sephiroth. So why not call them M-Cells, for Military Cells? Or JB-cells, for Jenova-bonded cells? Did they do that? No, they call them fucking Jenova cells, because that's what they are, living cells of the creature Professor Gast named Jenova, which are able to separate, and remain controlled by the will of the creature itself or later on Sephiroth, and are then able to return to reform the whole at a later time. A feat they could not bloody well accomplish if they were fused with their host.

That they should rename the cells is an incorrect premise. All of that other stuff does not follow. This argument is wholly unsound.

We've been given enough info on the original Great Gospel to infer how it works. It's, get this... MAGIC!

Then Geostigma was healed by magic.

'

Did you even try to see the point there?

it magically removes toxins/heals wounds/etc while enveloping her and her allies in protective magic for a time.

Then how come an Esuna doesn't heal Geostigma?

Seriously, are you too thick to understand a simple mechanic like "its magic" or what?

Do you understand the concept of a rhetorical question?

You do communicate poorly, and every time you try to put that off on me it makes me want to work to understand you less and less.

Then you shouldn't be arguing. It makes no sense to debate someone if you don't try to grasp the point.

Obviously you're not providing a conclusive, convincing argument if the people you debate with see your words and believe you're saying something entirely different than what you're shooting for.

Either P or Q. So, either the communication problem is mine or yours. Not P, therefore Q. So, the communication problem is not yours. Therefore, it must be mine.

But wait, why is it not yours? Invalid argument.

You can't explain how the Reunion can occur if the cells are fused with the host, and yet with the exception of Cloud and presumably some real Ex-SOLDIERs who could resist the Reunion Instinct it did indeed happen. And that doesn't strike you as a giant fucking hole in your logic? Tres was right, you are batshit crazy if you are trying to educate the people if you can't see this.

I told you, I don't make shit up just to lend my theories false credibility. If there isn't an answer, there just isn't an answer. There isn't a god damn thing I can do about it. Can I come up with something? Probably. But guess what: That's making shit up to support the point. Why do that? It would be a giant fucking hole in my logic, as you put it, to do that after I've repeatedly shot down that "Cloud has superhuman spirit energy" thing.

The only irony is that our arguments haven't convinced you.

That's not ironic. In fact, that's to be expected. Your arguments aren't all that convincing.

Doesn't change the fact that you're taking an uncomfirmed theory of yours as fact simply because destroying J-cells inside a body is something that couldn't be done prior to the time that we see Geostigma cured, using largely unfounded assertions that J-cells are not free floating within the body as evidence, and repeatedly claiming that Cloud's strength and such would decrease if he were to lose them somehow because they're not free floating.

"Cloud still has Jenova cells" is no more a theory than "Aerith is still dead," "Rufus's last name is still Shinra," or "Tifa still has boobs."

Things fucking change dude. Characters develop, form relationships, increase in skill. New events take place. If you want a static image, that's called a snapshot. Me, I'll continue with the story, where things actually progress and change.

Straw man. This particular thing didn't change=/=nothing changes. As you'll see above, I provided numerous examples of shit that is STILL THE SAME & will continue to be the same until it's changed. If I was arguing any of those 3 examples & telling you "your theory is unfounded supposition & mine is better," I'm pretty sure you'd call bullshit, too.

And thank you for agreeing that the only thing we can reasonably say is that Geostigma is cured.

You mean that thing I've been saying for ages?

I accept this concession.

If you're so insistant that you're obviously correct, none of the evidence that's been presented to you is any good, & I can't communicate or whatever, then why on Earth do you keep responding to my posts?

So now Cetra fighting Jenova and sealing it = Trying to remove J-cells from a person's body?

Yeah, for some time, I've been maintaining that the Jenova cells aren't destroyed. I have no idea where the claim was changed to removal. Or maybe you & Tres simply have differing opinions of how Geostigma was cured. Whatever the case, there still isn't significant evidence for it.

And since I've been being somewhat cruel, I'll make sure you know that this time its playful ribbing rather than real dickery.

I'm not bothered. Really.

 

[Neo Bahamut]

Tres, these are the 2 big things I picked out of your post:

1. No one could ressurrect from the dead before.

Incorrect. In Crisis Core, Tseng suggests that Genesis could be leading the G Clones from the Lifestream. Then we see the Angeal clone acting of its own free will. This means that it was a known possibility that a mind could continue to exist in the Lifestream, which we saw in many other areas, as well.

We also know about undead, which are the textbook definition of returning from the dead. And, due to Jenova's regenerative powers, the mechanism used to revive Sephiroth wasn't at all a stretch. Hell, it was implied in VII's Ultimania that he could come back to life by inhabiting a body with Jenova cells, considering that's what he tried to do to Cloud.

All of the pieces were already there. What appears to be a wholly new development is just a rearranging of plot points we already knew about.

2. Aerith can do something no one ever did before.

I don't see where you're getting that. The Cetra had their spirit body things. As well, I maintain that Aerith is not countering Sephiroth's will just by easing the hatred of the departed.

I think I recall, also, that the example of the Lifestream emerging from the earth was used a while back. To counter that, we know that the Lifestream moves. We know that the Lifestream is made up of departed souls. Ergo, Aerith directing this flow by directing the souls that make it up is yet another example of a new development made from a rearrangement of plot points we already knew.

Neither of these characters pulled a deus ex machina out of their ass.

As for Hojo's line, he says it in the event that you decide to enter his machine prior to Genesis's attempt on his life.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Tres, these are the 2 big things I picked out of your post ...

You missed all of this:

And that differs from what's being discussed here in what way?

Okay, let's look at the rest of your paragraph: "How the cells work is irrelevent. From what we know from the rest of the Compilation, which makes NO distinction between 'having Jenova's cells' & 'having Jenova's abilities' in cases of SOLDIER infusion, Cloud should have had a decrease in ability."

Basically just a really long version of "No." You restated your conclusion ("Cloud should have had a decrease in ability") and your claim that no distinction is made between having JENOVA's cells and having JENOVA's abilities when it comes to SOLDIER infusion, while true, was ignoring the likelihood that the cells of the host were mutated by the process (apparently true given that Gillian's genes were mapped onto Genesis's, passing along some of JENOVA's traits without actually giving him the cells) -- in which case the cells could be removed without Cloud suffering a decrease in ability.

Actually, you have been making the claim that JENOVA cells can't be destroyed. Hell, you make it again in your very next post:

Did anyone ever try to destroy Jenova? Yes. Did it work? No.

You said it earlier too:

Neither Aerith nor anyone else in the past had the power to destroy Jenova.

You're also still ignoring a piece of JENOVA clearly being destroyed in this scene from the original game, as well as the "500 years later" ending of FFVII, which shows us that JENOVA is gone. So it really doesn't matter whether you believe anyone in the original game's present era or prior was able to destroy any of JENOVA's cells -- the fact remains that the ending of the game shows that at some point the ability would come along.

That's something that wasn't there before you say -- yet it comes along. Thus, it's possible that it was during AC/C.

Yes, you're right. It is the point. Some of the cells in one group of people with JENOVA's cells resemble cells found in another group of people with JENOVA's cells. And both groups display identical geostigma symptoms.

So how is all of that an indication that the alien cells fuse with the host cells of one group but not the other.

That doesn't help, man. Obviously the JENOVA cells would alter the genetic code. If anything, that supports the idea that Cloud doesn't need them in order to retain their benefits.

The deterioration, if even true, doesn't support the idea either.

You're not really establishing anything that indicates the cells first deteriorate and then alter the genetic code, which would do more to suggest that maybe there's a fusion. It's as easy to believe -- if not easier, given the instant effects of the cells -- that the genetic code alters first, and then the deterioration of the JENOVA cells follows at an unidentified, unpredictable time thereafter.

Which is really a point in favor of the notion that geostigma victims don't require an identical injection/infusion to that of SOLDIERs in order for their genetic code to be altered. If it can be done by eating hair, then absorbing the stuff through Lifestream tentacles (which had probably passed through the planet's own moisture, and inevitably would make contact with the body's own) or through drinking water should still count as an injection.

The word, after all, would only imply that some kind of liquid agent/solution has been utilized to administer the cells to the body.

And you were the one who's been arguing in favor of that concept, ironically, by bringing up plasmids and pointing out the gene mapping involved with Gillian-->Genesis and Genesis-->the Tsviets.

Actually, I think EG's referring to the deterioration of JENOVA cells inside people like Zack, not to the deterioration Genesis suffers. You're arguing that Hollander's right about the deterioration inside Zack.

Not that I'm endorsing anything Hollander says as fact. The guy's a dumbass. He fucked up with Genesis, he thought Angeal was perfect (nope, Sephiroth was still the superior product, and even Angeal and his copies can suffer degradation), he thought that JENOVA's pure cells could heal Genesis (we don't know if they ever tried them out while they were in Nibelheim, but it's likely that they did), then he thought that Sephiroth's cells would do the trick, and after trying S-Cells from Zack and all the other Sephiroth copies, Hollander concluded that "the last pure S-Cells" in Cloud would do it.

Honestly, while I believe that he believes he's right, I don't believe him about any of this, and I don't know that I even believe him about the degradation of JENOVA cells in Zack either. He only seems to have come to that conclusion as a way of explaining why the S-Cells in Zack didn't work.

So I take issue with you concluding that Hollander must have been right about this one thing and that this one thing must mean the fusion of JENOVA's deteriorating cells with the host's own cells -- despite one not necessarily leading to the other (deterioration-->fusion), and despite the deterioration explanation being there to explain something else he was wrong about anyway.

Then what "infection" is the body fighting off to cause geostigma?

What about geostigma victims?

And like EG just said, the observation of the sparkly green effect is the cornerstone of my argument because "we can in fact clearly see physical matter going from there to not there."

Those would be the other big parts.

1. No one could ressurrect from the dead before.

An interchangeable illustration of one concept is not one of the "big things" from my post.

Incorrect. In Crisis Core, Tseng suggests that Genesis could be leading the G Clones from the Lifestream. Then we see the Angeal clone acting of its own free will. This means that it was a known possibility that a mind could continue to exist in the Lifestream, which we saw in many other areas, as well.

Which is not a resurrection.

All of the pieces were already there. What appears to be a wholly new development is just a rearranging of plot points we already knew about.

Which is what the Lifestream/Aerith dealing with JENOVA and Sephiroth would be in AC/C. The planet's been dealing with this "infection" for 2000 years.

Given the biological comparisons with the planet and the Lifestream -- not to mention it being the obvious time to do it considering we have the geostigma condition going on during AC/C -- is it really so far out of left field that the planet's own immune system could finally come up with a response?

Aerith can do something no one ever did before.

I don't see where you're getting that. The Cetra had their spirit body things.

What's that have to do with Sephiroth's will and JENOVA's cells?

As well, I maintain that Aerith is not countering Sephiroth's will just by easing the hatred of the departed.

Since it was Negative Lifestream, I maintain that it amounts to the same thing. And whether it was his will she was undermining or not, she was still doing something new that the planet was unable to do before she did it.

I think I recall, also, that the example of the Lifestream emerging from the earth was used a while back. To counter that, we know that the Lifestream moves. We know that the Lifestream is made up of departed souls. Ergo, Aerith directing this flow by directing the souls that make it up is yet another example of a new development made from a rearrangement of plot points we already knew.

Yes. Which is what usually happens when new events occur for the first time, but you seem intent on labeling most such things "retcons," despite the actual definition of the word.

Neither of these characters pulled a deus ex machina out of their ass.

That I disagree with. It was Deus ex Machina both times she saved the day, based in the existing metaphysics or not. The gods of Olympus were based in the metaphysics of the Greek drama where we got the Deus ex Machina concept, after all.

Whether one views that as negative or not is entirely up to the individual, but I'm just calling it what it is.

As for Hojo's line, he says it in the event that you decide to enter his machine prior to Genesis's attempt on his life.

I don't think that's the line I'm thinking of. This is all that's said there:

Zack: I thought I would feel more of a surge of power, or something.

Hojo: That's just the limit of your cellular structure.

Hojo: Or perhaps you would like to be altered to the point of degradation?

It still seems like I've seen the actual wording "unstable cellular structure" or maybe "unstable genetic structure" somewhere. Thanks, though.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Because I can't direct particular comments at particular people? I have to post everything related to multiple people & PM everything else? What?

You know what, whether you being a point with @Tres or not, if I have something I think is relevant to say I am going to say it. If you, for instance, say something that attacks Tres' logic, and it is logic I share, then I am going to feel the same as if you'd said it to me and interject my thoughts. And yes, if you wanna keep it between you and him, PM it. Otherwise I will see, and odds are good I will comment with my take on it. Fuck you if you don't like it dragon-boy.

Also, I'm pretty sure I've been using quotes. So...yeah.

I will concede that on most occasions you did use quotes. My previous post was poorly worded in some ways with regards to this matter. The one above sums up my feelings on the matter much better.

Well, that sounds like bad communication on your part, not mine. When a person is obviously replying to a specific point, it's just asinine to assume they're directing that comment at everyone in the vacinity.

Oh look, another communication problem that is entirely my fault with no blame falling on you whatsoever. Now where have I seen that before? If you put your post, irregardless of what you're posting, in a public forum (I repeat, a public forum) then people aside from who you were responding to will sometimes respond. Tell me you've never spoken up to someone who was directing a post at someone other than you.

What makes you think I don't? I think you fail to realize that attacking someone in the real world is a REALLY BAD IDEA. When the person you attacked or the witnesses reports it, do you really think the defense, "He pissed me off with his words" is going to stand up? You can get assault charges pressed on you for that. On the contrary, there's this thing called "free speech" that prevents you from being jailed for talking. Is it really worth it? Do you really think the speaker is the stupid person in that scenario?

Oh I agree, attacking someone physically for being lippy, smarmy, or otherwise unpleasant is stupid. It will lead to bad things for the attacker, such as jail time as you mentioned. But in case you haven't noticed mate, the world is full of very stupid people, and I didn't say "I would knock you on your ass for that" I said that someday someone just might. Free speech protects from jail time, but it won't save you a busted jaw if you get snippy with the wrong person. But, this is a lot of nonsense about what amounted to little more of a way of saying "dude you're smarmy."

All of this is of course beside the point, but as long as we're on our soapboxes, why not?

I can see my house from here. Must big one big damn soapbox.

There really is a fine line between shifting the goal posts & ammending an argument. I realized the title could take focus off of the main argument long ago, which is why I tried to edit it. Of course, I couldn't. Also, it occurred to me that the title makes it sound as though there will never be a way to destroy Jenova cells ever, which is not at all what I wanted to suggest.

And that my friend is a failure to communicate. You made the entire post around a title clearly suggesting the concept that Jenova cells cannot be destroyed. Sure, you tried to edit it later, but your starting point, from what you said in the above paragraph, communicated an entirely different concept than what you wanted. The intro to Cool Hand Luke was right, there's some men you just can't reach.

I'm not. The point I'm arguing is that there is nothing we've seen so far that shows us Jenova cells could be destroyed. If they could, one would assume that Jenova would be dead by now. We do see the Life, Death, & Synthesis destroyed in VII, but as we've both recognized, cells do survive. So, that begs the question: How does the party kill these, exactly? If they hack it into pieces, do they necessarily destroy the cells? Or do they just separate them? As I said before, if one could just dissolve Jenova cells, one would assume that Jenova had been beaten a long time ago.

Well you see NB, there's this thing that cells do called mitosis. It gets kinda technical, but in effect they split into two cells, grow to full size, and split again. They do this over and over. So we can presume that if we kill a Jenova entity and a few cells survive, those cells will divide and multiply, thus surviving.

That you say this with absolute certainty is perhaps the most ridiculous thing I've heard this entire thread.

You're the most ridiculous thing in this thread. What I said made perfect sense, both Tres and myself have provided what we fully admit is circumstancial evidence. Evidence from which conclusions can be reached through application of deductive and inductive reasoning. You just have responses ranging from simple "no" to long winded and overly complex explanations that boil down to "no."

1. Because I have quotes that seem to indicate that whereas you have none.
2. Even allowing this point, the fact remains that, when you strip away all of the supposition, there is STILL absolutely NOTHING that suggests Cloud no longer has Jenova cells.

Your quotes indicate no such thing, as far as I can see. And even allowing whatever you try to say that means "no" there is STILL absolutely NOTHING that suggests Cloud retains his Jenova cells. You admitted that earlier, no take backs dude.

Woah, woah, what? When did I ever say "they have to fuse with the host to survive"? I just said that's what they do. Not why they do it.

Forgive me if you didn't mean that the cells would die if they didn't fuse with the cells. Considering that I asked how the cells would even still exist in a body if they perpetually deteriorated, and you argued that this instability requires them to fuse with the host's cells, I naturally concluded this is what you meant. But with regards to that, Tres said it better than I could already.

Why do they call the Sephiroth clones--well, that--when they aren't clones? There's a reason I keep mentioning that example.

If one of the translation minded folks disagrees, do correct me, but I recall hearing that "Sephiroth clones" was more of a localization error than anything, and should in fact have been "Sephiroth copies." As in, people upon whom the processes involved in making Sephiroth were copied. Which makes it nearly identical to SOLIDER, except that the subjects' desired state of mental strength is opposite what is desired in SOLDIER.

That they should rename the cells is an incorrect premise. All of that other stuff does not follow. This argument is wholly unsound.

What's so unsound about it? If the J-cells fuse with the host's cells, they create a whole different kind of cell. Scientists love to name new things, not only does it offer an opportunity to be vain and pat yourself on the back for coming up with clever names/using your name on something, but it also has the real advantage of making it possible to discuss different topics without confusing them. And you don't think sticking with the same name for a new type of cell, while still using that name for the original cell would be in the least confusing for the Science Department (if your theory were correct)? I guarantee in a real lab setting they'd at least tack on identifying numbers for each type of cell. Like the original cells from Jenova itself being "Type-000" cells, Sephiroth's being "Type-001" and SOLDIER cells being "Type-002" or something similar. Just sticking with the same name to me insinuates that its the same damn thing being referred to. Its only unsound because it doesn't fit with your view of things.

Then Geostigma was healed by magic.

No fucking shit. How many times has Tres said that now, in asking why this one particular feat of magic defies belief on your part while others are perfectly ok?

'

Did you even try to see the point there?

Whatever your point was, you asked a question about how Great Gospel works. I answered. And you remain unable to answer mine. Sounds about par for the course at this point.

Then how come an Esuna doesn't heal Geostigma?

Maybe because Esuna is a standard form of healing magic, whereas Greatest Gosepel is seemingly second only to Holy? Esuna just ain't strong enough to remove/destroy Jenova cells. Duh,

Do you understand the concept of a rhetorical question?

Do you understand that sometimes, if you ask what you intend to be a rhetorical question, you'll be surprised when someone provides an answer? And that if you depend on rhetorical questions to make a point, and then the answer is provided despite that, it makes you look foolish?

Then you shouldn't be arguing. It makes no sense to debate someone if you don't try to grasp the point.

I've been working quite hard to grasp your points, especially after the previous cases where I "misrepresented" you. But you putting your communications issues off on others, when Tres has misunderstood your posts as often as I, is bullshit. If two different people look at the words you put on screen and come to similar conclusions, neither of which is what you intended, then its clear that you are doing something wrong. You trying to turn that back on us really kills my desire to keep trying to get the real meaning out of you. I haven't quit yet, but seriously you're not gonna make yourself understood that way.

Either P or Q. So, either the communication problem is mine or yours. Not P, therefore Q. So, the communication problem is not yours. Therefore, it must be mine.

But wait, why is it not yours? Invalid argument.

See above paragraph. I'm not the only one having a hard time getting the intended meaning out of your posts. Thus, the communication clearly isn't just mine alone.

I told you, I don't make shit up just to lend my theories false credibility. If there isn't an answer, there just isn't an answer. There isn't a god damn thing I can do about it. Can I come up with something? Probably. But guess what: That's making shit up to support the point. Why do that? It would be a giant fucking hole in my logic, as you put it, to do that after I've repeatedly shot down that "Cloud has superhuman spirit energy" thing.

So you have no answer. You can provide no account of how the Reunion could possibly take place if indeed you are correct and the cells are fused with those of the host. And that doesn't tell you at all that the fused cells theory has a serious flaw? That right there? Cause it tells me something.

That's not ironic. In fact, that's to be expected. Your arguments aren't all that convincing.

Hmmm... now that statement coming from you is ironic. The irony I commented on previously was your describing our arguments as unconvincing when your own were no better at convincing us (especially considering you generally understood what we were trying to say). I do know the definition of irony, I employ it frequently in one form or another in my writing and I see it all around me every day of my life. Don't insult my intelligence please.

"Cloud still has Jenova cells" is no more a theory than "Aerith is still dead," "Rufus's last name is still Shinra," or "Tifa still has boobs."

What happened to "the only thing we can conclude from this is that Geostigma has been cured" exactly? Where did that go? Now we're right back to "I'm right and you're wrong." Once again, you can't have it both ways. Pick one. And yes, Cloud still having J-cells is a goddamn theory until it is confirmed or disproved. I don't care how certain of that theory you are, it is in fact a theory. The things you quoted are facts of the story, which we can clearly see in many places. Your theory, we can't see confirmed with facts from anywhere. Not yet, and I do believe not ever. I could be wrong about the "not ever" part, but the not yet is certain.

Straw man. This particular thing didn't change=/=nothing changes. As you'll see above, I provided numerous examples of shit that is STILL THE SAME & will continue to be the same until it's changed. If I was arguing any of those 3 examples & telling you "your theory is unfounded supposition & mine is better," I'm pretty sure you'd call bullshit, too.

I've called bullshit on you a few times now. I even directly referred to "calling bullshit" a ways back. There is nothing of straw in that statement, though I could see how you might believe it was. I employed hyperbole to make a point, I recognize that you don't genuinely believe that nothing ever changes in a story. But you still are sticking with this theory of yours based largely on "its never happened before" even when you make examples of similarly "never could be done before" situations and ironically don't see the similarity. As Tres asked, how is Sin so different from destroying Jenova cells with regards to "never been/could be done before?" You may not want a snapshot of the Compilation itself that never changes, but you certainly seem to want Cloud's J-cell infection to remain permanent.

You mean that thing I've been saying for ages?

You mean that statement you totally contradicted with your assertion that "Cloud still has Jenova cells" is no more an unproven theory than "Tifa still has boobs?" That statement? Cause if you've been saying it for ages, then perhaps your dumb ass should stick to it instead of contradicting it at the drop of a bloody hat.

If you're so insistant that you're obviously correct, none of the evidence that's been presented to you is any good, & I can't communicate or whatever, then why on Earth do you keep responding to my posts?

Told you before, I'm not here to prove you wrong. I'm here to make you acknowledge that your theory is a theory, not Word of God, and that other interpretations are just as valid as yours. And because your obstinate clinging to your idea that your theory is better than any other is lulzy in its fail.

Yeah, for some time, I've been maintaining that the Jenova cells aren't destroyed. I have no idea where the claim was changed to removal. Or maybe you & Tres simply have differing opinions of how Geostigma was cured. Whatever the case, there still isn't significant evidence for it.

Removed, destroyed, vaporized, pick a word, any word. I used removed as an alternative in that case. If you destroy a foreign cell by magic, you've effectively removed it. Whatever word I use, and I believe Tres said essentially the same earlier, it means this: It was there, now its not. So again, now Jenova vs. Cetra War = Attempt to destroy/remove/what-the-fuck-ever Jenova cells that are inside a living body... how? Nothing Ifalna nor anyone else, in any Compilation literature I've ever seen or heard referred to anywhere, has ever described more than the Cetra wrecking Jenova's shit after a long war and sealing its body away. Where are you getting this idea that they tried to do away with cells inside their mutated monstrous ex-brethren?

I'm not bothered. Really.

Good. I hate to cause offense... unless I am trying to.

 

[Neo Bahamut]

You know what? If I don't cut this off now, I'll be arguing it forever.

The problem is that you do not understand logic, do not wish to try, & want me to accept your illogic as logic. That is never going to happen.

When faced with the problems in your logic, you ultimately conclude that my argument boils down to "I'm right because I say so," in spite of any reasoning that happens to be there. I have explained, over & over, that you will not get constant reaffirmations that events didn't happen & that expecting such is idiotic. You still fail to acknowledge this most fundamental of points, instead choosing to see it as being contradicted by completely unrelated points.

Your arguments are illogical, but you are so invested in the conclusions that you'll never see that it's all smoke & mirrors. You claim your argument uses both deductive and inductive logic, but most of your deductive logic is invalid and your inductive logic, which far outweighs the deductive portions, argues one made up point in support of another.

I refuse to humor you any longer. You have the logic. If you refuse to see it, that's your problem, not mine. I have absolutely nothing to gain from sticking to this asinine debate.

Again, I request this thread be locked. It has been FIFTEEN PAGES now. If you cannot see that this thread is NEVER going to accomplish anything, no matter how many times I come back to respond, you need to get your eyes checked.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Tres, these are the 2 big things I picked out of your post ...

You missed all of this:

And that differs from what's being discussed here in what way?

Okay, let's look at the rest of your paragraph: "How the cells work is irrelevent. From what we know from the rest of the Compilation, which makes NO distinction between 'having Jenova's cells' & 'having Jenova's abilities' in cases of SOLDIER infusion, Cloud should have had a decrease in ability."

Basically just a really long version of "No." You restated your conclusion ("Cloud should have had a decrease in ability") and your claim that no distinction is made between having JENOVA's cells and having JENOVA's abilities when it comes to SOLDIER infusion, while true, was ignoring the likelihood that the cells of the host were mutated by the process (apparently true given that Gillian's genes were mapped onto Genesis's, passing along some of JENOVA's traits without actually giving him the cells) -- in which case the cells could be removed without Cloud suffering a decrease in ability.

Actually, you have been making the claim that JENOVA cells can't be destroyed. Hell, you make it again in your very next post:

Did anyone ever try to destroy Jenova? Yes. Did it work? No.

You said it earlier too:

Neither Aerith nor anyone else in the past had the power to destroy Jenova.

You're also still ignoring a piece of JENOVA clearly being destroyed in this scene from the original game, as well as the "500 years later" ending of FFVII, which shows us that JENOVA is gone. So it really doesn't matter whether you believe anyone in the original game's present era or prior was able to destroy any of JENOVA's cells -- the fact remains that the ending of the game shows that at some point the ability would come along.

That's something that wasn't there before you say -- yet it comes along. Thus, it's possible that it was during AC/C.

Yes, you're right. It is the point. Some of the cells in one group of people with JENOVA's cells resemble cells found in another group of people with JENOVA's cells. And both groups display identical geostigma symptoms.

So how is all of that an indication that the alien cells fuse with the host cells of one group but not the other.

That doesn't help, man. Obviously the JENOVA cells would alter the genetic code. If anything, that supports the idea that Cloud doesn't need them in order to retain their benefits.

The deterioration, if even true, doesn't support the idea either.

You're not really establishing anything that indicates the cells first deteriorate and then alter the genetic code, which would do more to suggest that maybe there's a fusion. It's as easy to believe -- if not easier, given the instant effects of the cells -- that the genetic code alters first, and then the deterioration of the JENOVA cells follows at an unidentified, unpredictable time thereafter.

Which is really a point in favor of the notion that geostigma victims don't require an identical injection/infusion to that of SOLDIERs in order for their genetic code to be altered. If it can be done by eating hair, then absorbing the stuff through Lifestream tentacles (which had probably passed through the planet's own moisture, and inevitably would make contact with the body's own) or through drinking water should still count as an injection.

The word, after all, would only imply that some kind of liquid agent/solution has been utilized to administer the cells to the body.

And you were the one who's been arguing in favor of that concept, ironically, by bringing up plasmids and pointing out the gene mapping involved with Gillian-->Genesis and Genesis-->the Tsviets.

Actually, I think EG's referring to the deterioration of JENOVA cells inside people like Zack, not to the deterioration Genesis suffers. You're arguing that Hollander's right about the deterioration inside Zack.

Not that I'm endorsing anything Hollander says as fact. The guy's a dumbass. He fucked up with Genesis, he thought Angeal was perfect (nope, Sephiroth was still the superior product, and even Angeal and his copies can suffer degradation), he thought that JENOVA's pure cells could heal Genesis (we don't know if they ever tried them out while they were in Nibelheim, but it's likely that they did), then he thought that Sephiroth's cells would do the trick, and after trying S-Cells from Zack and all the other Sephiroth copies, Hollander concluded that "the last pure S-Cells" in Cloud would do it.

Honestly, while I believe that he believes he's right, I don't believe him about any of this, and I don't know that I even believe him about the degradation of JENOVA cells in Zack either. He only seems to have come to that conclusion as a way of explaining why the S-Cells in Zack didn't work.

So I take issue with you concluding that Hollander must have been right about this one thing and that this one thing must mean the fusion of JENOVA's deteriorating cells with the host's own cells -- despite one not necessarily leading to the other (deterioration-->fusion), and despite the deterioration explanation being there to explain something else he was wrong about anyway.

Then what "infection" is the body fighting off to cause geostigma?

What about geostigma victims?

And like EG just said, the observation of the sparkly green effect is the cornerstone of my argument because "we can in fact clearly see physical matter going from there to not there."

Those would be the other big parts.

1. No one could ressurrect from the dead before.

An interchangeable illustration of one concept is not one of the "big things" from my post.

Incorrect. In Crisis Core, Tseng suggests that Genesis could be leading the G Clones from the Lifestream. Then we see the Angeal clone acting of its own free will. This means that it was a known possibility that a mind could continue to exist in the Lifestream, which we saw in many other areas, as well.

Which is not a resurrection.

All of the pieces were already there. What appears to be a wholly new development is just a rearranging of plot points we already knew about.

Which is what the Lifestream/Aerith dealing with JENOVA and Sephiroth would be in AC/C. The planet's been dealing with this "infection" for 2000 years.

Given the biological comparisons with the planet and the Lifestream -- not to mention it being the obvious time to do it considering we have the geostigma condition going on during AC/C -- is it really so far out of left field that the planet's own immune system could finally come up with a response?

Aerith can do something no one ever did before.

I don't see where you're getting that. The Cetra had their spirit body things.

What's that have to do with Sephiroth's will and JENOVA's cells?

As well, I maintain that Aerith is not countering Sephiroth's will just by easing the hatred of the departed.

Since it was Negative Lifestream, I maintain that it amounts to the same thing. And whether it was his will she was undermining or not, she was still doing something new that the planet was unable to do before she did it.

I think I recall, also, that the example of the Lifestream emerging from the earth was used a while back. To counter that, we know that the Lifestream moves. We know that the Lifestream is made up of departed souls. Ergo, Aerith directing this flow by directing the souls that make it up is yet another example of a new development made from a rearrangement of plot points we already knew.

Yes. Which is what usually happens when new events occur for the first time, but you seem intent on labeling most such things "retcons," despite the actual definition of the word.

Neither of these characters pulled a deus ex machina out of their ass.

That I disagree with. It was Deus ex Machina both times she saved the day, based in the existing metaphysics or not. The gods of Olympus were based in the metaphysics of the Greek drama where we got the Deus ex Machina concept, after all.

Whether one views that as negative or not is entirely up to the individual, but I'm just calling it what it is.

 

[Neo Bahamut]

Just let it go. I could explain it 50 times over & it will still amount to nothing. I may be willing to discuss this in another setting, but I am sick of this protracted topic that's going absolutely nowhere & kept up simply because of the stubbornness of those involved, myself included.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

So, you could respond to those points 50 times over, you say ... so you're not going to bother responding to them even once? Awesome sauce. Though the tactic itself is very weak sauce.

When EG told you to cry more, I don't think he really meant you to take it as a challenge, man.

 

[Neo Bahamut]

You kind of got shafted. I'll agree to that. But you're getting shafted because I have to reply to extremely long rehashings of old illogic.

I want the thread to die because I'm spending hours arguing against someone who is completely irrational. At least in terms of this particular subject. In short, it's a waste of time.

You can still feel free to PM me. I'm just taking steps to try & bring this public farce to a close.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

A public farce you yourself created. I don't claim now, nor have I ever claimed, that my logic is undeniable. But it is logic, with direct references to several points/events in the Compilation to support it. Your claim that my arguments are entirely "illogic" is rather pathetic in its transparent "I wanna quit but I'm still right damn it!" meaning. Despite you yourself bringing up points that are fanwanked into supporting your side, and posting assertions that are really better suited to support our side of the debate. You ignored multiple points supplied by both Tres and I, and even outright refused to try and answer a question of mine that pokes a giagantic hole in your oh so logical logic without even accepting that it does indeed poke such a hole. You fail.

And for the record, "cry moar" actually was a challenge, if a misleadingly worded one. Though I am sure most anyone else would have gotten the point, which was in fact "try to debate without crying." Either way though, I end it with "nancy."

Oooo... if indeed you are fleeing the thread because you are unable to back up your assertion that you'd educate us on the fate of Cloud's Jenova cells (a goal that was hindered greatly by the issues I brought up in the first paragraph of this post) that's how I wanna end my involvement with you here.

My exit line: You may not do it here, but... cry moar, nancy.

 

[Neo Bahamut]

This is where my earlier analogy comes into play. You leave the debate because your opponent simply cannot be reasoned with. That, however, will not stop them from shouting about how right they are & how you must be crying & leaving because you "can't refute them." This, ironically, only serves to reinforce the notion that they cannot be reasoned with.

Your arguments are illogic. You said nothing that poked a hole in my logic. I said nothing that supported your conclusions. You choose to not understand the information you are presented with & instead believe in the conclusions that you have come up with.

You also have a massive double-standard going for you in that you'll spend pages bitching about how mean I am to you just for saying that your ideas are illogical, then try to insinuate that I am the one who is being emotional. Of course, when presented with this hypocrisy, rather than own up to it, you'll just continue to do it, as though it somehow discredits me.

My exit line, then, would be: Learn how logic & debate work before professing superiority in the subjects.

 

[Max Payne]

rofl