For myself, I'm not arguing whether you did or didn't say it didn't happen. I'm sure as you proceed with this work in progress you'll remark on my taking it back to the original point of Tres bringing up the vapor in the first place: showcasing that the rain is destroying a physical substance, supporting it destroying Jenova calls which are a physical substance.
That's not what I said, & I shall repeat myself for the third or fourth time: EVEN IF Cloud is a SOLDIER-esque individual, there is NO REASON to believe that his Geostigma should develop ANY differently from the rest of the cases. For the record, when I said "unintentionally obscured my point," I was being polite more than anything else. It's not my fault Tres & you are picking a hole in a completely unrelated facet of the analogy & claiming victory
I haven't actually declared victory. I called bullshit a few times, but I doubt I'm actually going to change your mind. I'm mostly just enjoying the verbal cut and thrust of debate, personally. And for the record, your definition of polite is odd, Mr. "patent bullshit" "actually it doesn't" "I'm gonna use the word obviously to describe shit that is only obvious to me." But, if you're now saying that Cloud, being a SOLDIER-level carrier of Jenova Cells, would not have any reason to show different symptoms than anyone else... what was all the crap about the other Geostigma-afflicted being "different" from SOLDER? I could be wrong, perhaps, but this looks like a backpedal to me.
What was he wrong about again? His Project G theories seem to have worked fairly well, and as I pointed out to you, he was dying of degradation just like Genesis at the point where they were seeking S-cells, so your "he's pulling shit out his ass" theory doesn't hold up at all.
You want to know why my "opinion" is more supported? Consider, if you will, the argument that Vincent is Sephiroth's real father & Hojo just said otherwise to dick with everyone. Can't really prove it wrong, but it is. Oh, & by the way, you can come up with contrived "evidence" for that. People remark all the time that Sephiroth looks more like Vincent than Hojo. Their personalities are even somewhat similar.
Strawman is a strawman. Sephiroth's parentage is unrelated to the argument. I see what you're doing, but really it doesn't work. Yes people can come up with off the wall contrived evidence like the resemblances between Sephy and Vincent, physical and attitude, just like you're contriving evidence to assert Jenova cells bond directly to the host's cells in permanent fashion and cannot be removed by any means ever, and even if they were somehow it'd mean an automatic drop in Cloud's physical ability. Except really you don't bother to contrive evidence, you just make "Word of GAWD" statements with occasional rephrases and a strawman now and then. Our evidence, on the other hand, is not contrived. We're not just making shit up. First you said circumstancial, now you're saying contrived. Once again I find myself saying "pick one dude."
I stated, even then, that the Compilation Ultimania are pretty in-depth. Also, I did not say, "in the ultimania," I said, "somewhere." A scene in the movie, for instance. You can believe it's a contradiction all you want, but I didn't say anything that contradicted my logic.
And I in turn reminded you it took 11 years for Cloti to be confirmed in an Ultimania, and Tres similarly mentioned it taking 8 years to have the identiry of Squall's parents confirmed in an Ultimania. Not to mention that these facts were alluded to, but never outright stated within their respective games. Just as the absolute truth of Jenoca's cells being destroyed in those exposed to Aerith's rain is not outright stated in the movie, it is again heavily inferred there. Maybe in 8-11 years an Ultimania will flat out say so. In the meantime, just like Cloti and Squalls mom 'n pop, we don't need it. We see it already
Edit: Whoopsie, I went too early. Oh well, I liked your post better when it was in progress really. You still at least seemed to be trying, as much as you ever were in this debate. Now, this seemed to me like the biggest difference in the two versions of your post:
I really don't know what to say to either of you, at this point. I don't know what to tell you that could clarify things any further. I don't know what you want me to do. This discussion has literally become too inane to even formulate a coherent response to.
Well, nothing you've really said has firmly supported the assertion you're trying to make here, and I don't see any evidence that could be found that really would support it (and I have a habit of playing Devil's Advocate against my own points, so I looked). So that said, formulating a coherent response would be very difficult, I feel your pain. But... come up with something or concede and gtfo
You missed the edit. Something tells me you will be upset with me, but the further I got into these responses, the less point I saw in repeating myself.
You seem to be of the opinion that I'm having difficulty formulating a response because you 2 argued well. That is very much not the case. I saw both of you claim I said things I did not at least once.
For Tres, the example that stuck out was "the rain didn't happen." For you, it was "Cloud's Geostigma is special." Not only have I NEVER said anything of the sort, I have clarified both points time & time again.
I can't argue against these because, well, I already DID. What if I did go back to Square 1 & reiterate EVERYTHING I said? Would it really make a difference in either of you 2's comprehension of the argument? I doubt it, & that's why I think this argument is pointless.
You seem to be of the opinion that I'm having difficulty formulating a response because you 2 argued well. That is very much not the case. I saw both of you claim I said things I did not at least once.
For Tres, the example that stuck out was "the rain didn't happen."
Actually, my understanding is that you're saying the physical substance on the surface of people's skin is not actually destroyed by the rain. In other words, that the rain itself occurred, but not this phenomenon of it.
And that is what you are saying. You can yell that it's not until your posts turn blue, but by equating that phenomenon with "just a visual effect" like enemies flashing red and vanishing in battles in the original game -- something that does not actually happen within the fictional universe -- you're saying that, likewise, the fizzling and vaporization of that physical material does not occur.
If that were not what you were trying to argue, there'd not even be any value in making the comparison during this debate. I'd sooner give you the benefit of the doubt that you're making a fallacious comparison with intended relevance to the debate than simply making comments that have no such intended relevance.
And this is precisely what I mean. It's absolutely pointless to continue the debate if you are going to tell me what my argument is.
Well, in that case, what you're really arguing is that Cloud is a panda bear. You can insist that you aren't until you're blue in the face, but that's what you're doing.
Yeah, I'm not doing that. Requesting thread nuke. Either way, I'm taking myself off of E-mail alert.
Yes, I want a thread nuke. Really. Why bother with this topic any longer? It's clear to me that you're both pretty dead set on this theory & there is absolutely no way to reason with you at this point.
I'm not saying you're closed minded, but what the Hell is, "Well, you're not speaking clearly enough!" Bull. Shit. The analogy was crystal clear to begin with. I explained it many times anyway. When you STILL did not understand, I shifted to a different train of thought, yet I still had BOTH of you try & tell me what I "said."
The way you both pat each other on the back over it is just--ugh. I mean nothing personal by this, but it's EXACTLY like watching someone ridicule you over how ignorant you are for not "knowing" Sephiroth was Jenova's puppet. They think they've won & that's all there is to it.
Again, I don't mean to insult anyone, but would you continue to debate in that sort of situation? I wouldn't. Because of that, the thread no longer serves any purpose. For you. I never had anything to gain from it in the first place.
Leaving it up or continuing it is practically asking for a flame war.
Dude, if we didn't get your point, you rephrased the point, and we still didn't get it, then your point =/= crystal clear. Just saying, I work with metaphor and analogies constantly in my life. I can be really obtuse sometimes, and I'm not ashamed to admit it, but I have given everything you say a goodly deal of thought before responding. Sometimes my replies take well over an hour to get posted due to that. So I didn't think it was as simple as my not getting it.
As for Tres and I patting each other on the back, can you tell me with a straight face that if someone came into the thread and came to similar conclusions to yours, and brought up new stuff/alternate aspects of existing statements that further supported your side of the debate, you wouldn't want to pat them on the back and offer support?Cause obviously I would, its good to know your ideas are supported and its a friend building excercise at least on par with giving each other shit. Which we do.
Yes, yes I would continue to debate in your circumstances. I admit your position is untenable, it's been a while since you've had anyone really support your points and even I, with my Devil's Advocate urges, couldn't find a way to say "well this part of your point is good" or "well now that you mention it this point of mine isn't as good as I thought" anytime recently. But we're not here to prove each other wrong, or start flame wars, and you've never made me really angry. I just leave threads that genuinely make me angry, I don't stick around and spoil the thread for everyone else. I'm here to discuss a game/film franchise that I love, and maybe learn from that discussion. This can be a mutually informative, friendship building experience, or you can take it way to personally and nuke the shit out of it.
It's up to you mate, but really if you never had anything to gain here in the first place then why'd you even start this thread? I was enjoying myself here, but if you're not: Anyone else on the forum think Neo Bahamut is right, and Jenova cells cannot possibly be erased from Cloud's body? If so, do you follow the same line of reasoning he has, or do you have your own points?
Firstly, I stress that this post is a situational reaction. Do not make the mistake of thinking that it reflects my view of the forum as a whole. You can hate Final Fantasy XII & still love the series as a whole. Which I do. On both counts.
Dude, if we didn't get your point, you rephrased the point, and we still didn't get it, then your point =/= crystal clear.
Or it's your comprehension that's the problem. But I don't like to pull that card, myself.
As for Tres and I patting each other on the back, can you tell me with a straight face that if someone came into the thread and came to similar conclusions to yours, and brought up new stuff/alternate aspects of existing statements that further supported your side of the debate, you wouldn't want to pat them on the back and offer support?
Then you've made a HUGE freaking mistake. That person would continue to go "lalala I'm not listening!" nothing you ever said would get through to them, you'd waste a tremendous amount of time, & possibly walk away feeling frustrated over the whole ordeal. As I said: There is nothing to be gained from that kind of argument.
I admit your position is untenable, it's been a while since you've had anyone really support your points and even I, with my Devil's Advocate urges, couldn't find a way to say "well this part of your point is good" or "well now that you mention it this point of mine isn't as good as I thought" anytime recently
You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. If you can't see the logic for what it is, that's not my problem. I have met the burden of proof & then some. This is why I said before that what you "think" makes sense proves nothing. The soundness of my argument is completely independent of how good you think it is.
But we're not here to prove each other wrong, or start flame wars, and you've never made me really angry.
I pretty much AM here to prove you wrong. Usually I would agree with you, but in the 12 pages this topic has gone on, I have seen absolutely NOTHING that suggests Cloud does not have Jenova cells. If you had more concrete evidence, the situation would change, & I would consider this more of a debate between 2 sides than a debate against a fan-perpetuated myth.
I'm here to discuss a game/film franchise that I love, and maybe learn from that discussion.
This may sound somewhat pretentious, but for the purposes of education. It's the same reason you might correct someone who claims that Vincent is Sephiroth's father. You don't really intend to "team-build," & you know there's nothing to be gained from their perspective on this particular subject. At the same time, you don't think they're "stupid," or anything like that. You just saw something wrong & sought to correct it.
I was enjoying myself here, but if you're not: Anyone else on the forum think Neo Bahamut is right, and Jenova cells cannot possibly be erased from Cloud's body? If so, do you follow the same line of reasoning he has, or do you have your own points?
I ceased to find this enjoyable when I had to explain for the twelfth fucking time that I did not say Geostigma wasn't cured. I found this even less enjoyable when I kept getting "nou!" type responses out of you 2 because you not understanding the point simply MUST be MY fault. So, you'll excuse me if I'm a bit curt.
Also, I don't really care whether or not anyone agrees with me. Cue Columbus/Round World analogy.
And I now find myself plainly saying for the second time this page that I haven't said you said geostigma wasn't cured:
I said:
Actually, my understanding is that you're saying the physical substance on the surface of people's skin is not actually destroyed by the rain. In other words, that the rain itself occurred, but not this phenomenon of it.
NB, how exactly did you meet the burden of proof and then some? As you yourself said, we've never been officially told by SE whether the rain does or does not remove Jenova Cells from the body, in any regard. We are never told how the cells interact with subject to produce the effects we see either. Your evidence largely rests on the shoulders of speculation. To be fair, so does ours for the same reasons. Basically neither side can concretely say "ZOMG PROOFZ!!!1!" and declare a decisive victory on this.
I tend to be pretty laid back man, but really your holier-than-thou, condescending attitude with statements like the every popular "patently bullshit" and more recent "debate against a fan-perpetuated myth" is getting under my skin. Your position is just as heavily fan perpetuated as mine and Tres' dude, though from what I've seen fewer fans perpetuate your side of it (as always, I could be wrong, but if I were in the minority I doubt you'd have started this thread). Stop pretending you know some big secret nobody else knows. IF SE ever comes out and says "Cloud still has J-cells despite his Geostigma being gone" then I will happily accept an "I told ya so" from you. But it won't change the fact that your assertion is backed up by nothing more than speculation concerning Jenova's similarity to a plasmid in terms of bonding to host cells, and your ability to ignore our rebuttal speculations such as those concerning Genesis (an ability supported by your ability to claim a proven, brilliant scientist is making shit up rather than trying to save himself).
You made the thread, named it, and made the claim that name outlines. The burden of proof does in fact rest with you, especially if you are trying to educate us on the topic (as if no one would debate the matter). And as much as you claim to have done so and more, I'm not seeing it at all mate.
And if you're sick of "no u" type responses, try this one: Cry moar, nancy.
I'm not "pretending I know some big secret." Cloud's Jenova cells are not gone & everyone should know it. Why should everyone know it? Because it was never retconned! To say our stances are equal because "they didn't say it wasn't true" is invalid. You could apply the same logic to any random point in the story. It's wrong.
I'm not going to sit here & pretend the argument is valid just to avoid offending you. The burden of proof does not rest on me because (A) I've already met it & (B) I'm arguing that that part of the continuity DIDN'T CHANGE. That's not an assertion that needs proven! I said this shit way back on Page 1, but I guess I shouldn't be surprised I had to re-explain on Page 13, given what's been going on in this topic.
Why does it not need proven? Refer to the end of Paragraph 1. If I claim a change takes place at any random point in the story, it is simply illogical to expect you to disprove it.
As for my "attitude getting under your skin," I don't really care. Your idea is pulled out of nowhere & you've blamed your failure to comprehend on me. Your argument is not respectable.
In fact, just go back to Page 1. The fact that the plasmid thing is mentioned NOWHERE in those arguments, coupled with your claim that it's my ONLY argument just MIGHT show you why I feel you & Tres are misrepresenting points you really should understand. If you see that, we may be able to continue. The way the information is being received right now, I just don't think there's any sense in presenting it.
@NB: "Why should everyone know it? Because it was never retconned!" <--- you said this. I luled. Let me explain something mate, a retcon is when you do something that contradicts the original story, changing events and making the new version canon. A new event that works on a narrative path from point A to point B is not a retcon. Cloud had Jenova cells due to Hojo's fuckery (point A), an event took place that cured him and now they're gone (point B). Now if we had a remake of FFVII and his J-cells were removed sometime during the story, that would be a retcon.
For the sake of amusing myself, I did actually go back to the very first page of this thread and have a look-see. Lemme respond as if it had just happened, with no confusing rambles about plasmids and special effects to be misinterpreted out there yet. *ahem*
While I’m back here, I thought I’d argue against another fan theory that chafes on my ass. Namely, the idea that “Cloud doesn’t have Jenova cells anymore.” This does not make sense from any angle you examine it from. To prove that:
Lemme start by saying this looks like an invitation to argue, not a means of educating anyone for their failure to see the truth. Fail begins right there. But, the paragraph ends with a statement that you're gonna prove it, lets move on and see what that's about...
Let’s consider the point of SOLDIER. They were infused with Jenova cells to make them a vastly superior fighting force. Given that, it makes absolutely no sense that Cloud’s performance isn’t hindered even slightly by lacking Jenova cells. Moreover, he’s basically fighting Jenova Jr. as a human when all of the other human characters—the Turks & the other party members—didn’t even give the Remnants difficulty, despite how strong they were. This alone is a plot-breaking retcon, if true.
So, we have here pure conjecture with a few well known facts thrown in to give it credibility. You assert that there is absolutely no way Cloud could still stand up to "Jenova Jr." if his J-cells were gone, because that would decrease his strength. But, as I've said before, we have no information on just how Jenova's cells work to give their host enhanced physical traits. None at all. We just know you inject em into someone, and based on certain variables (which we're also never informed of) they either make you badass, or they mutate you into a horrible monster. I further asserted that its entirely possible that J-cells therefore mutate the host permanently, so even if the cells are removed in any way, the benefits remain. You can't prove that they don't, so this paragraph proves nothing. Also, again, this is not a retcon.
Another massive plot hole this would create. If Aerith’s Great Gospel—an ability you can get & use on Cloud long before Sephiroth kills her—is able to completely destroy even the slightest trace of Jenova cells, well, that’s just the worst writing I’ve ever heard. It’s even worse when you consider that it was all Aerith’s descendents, who were established as being much more in-tune with their abilities than she was, could do just to seal Jenova away.
At this point, I believe it was pointed out that the holy rain we see at the end of AC/C is not exactly the same thing as Great Gospel. It is visually similar, the creators even made a point of mentioning that it is an allusion to such. There are, however, a number of differences both in its presentation and effect. Notice that when Aerith used Great Gospel in the game, she was still alive. She's actually within the Lifestream when she uses this technique, which I will now refer to as Greatest Gospel. And yet it only occurred in a localized area, namely the Church where one presumes Aerith's close connection may give her greater will to interact with the living world. It isn't until Sephiroth's will is broken at the edge of Cloud's swords that she spreads it out to the city of Edge. So it clearly has limits on it, and couldn't fully surpass Sephiroth's will. Which means that it could only have defeated the other side of the Geostigma coin: J-cells.
Even applying real-world logic to this, it makes no sense. Diseases do not work that way. Treating the symptom does not erase the underlying microbe that causes it. In fact, Vincent even refers to Geostigma as a “symptom,” complete with the biologically correct description that it’s the result of the body overcompensating when fighting off an invader. Given this, it would be an impressively awful research failure if Cloud’s Jenova cell infusion was “erased” by Great Gospel. Further complicating this, Jenova cell infusion changes the entire genetic structure. It isn't simply an agent in the bloodstream. I find it incredibly unlikely that rain, even magic rain, can just get rid of it.
Indeed, treating a symptom of a disease only makes the disease easier to live with, it does not cure it entirely. Geostigma, as a disease, has two causes: J-cells present in the body, and Sephiroth's will making them active to the point that the body's defenses try to remove them. One or both of these things must be removed in order to cure the disease. Or at least, that's what we've been asserting up to this point. It occurs to me now that Denzel and the other children who were not outside when the rain fell still had Geostigma even after Sephy's defeat, which by my own account is what reduced his will sufficiently for the rain to fall. This implies to me that even getting fucked up with Omnislash verson 5/6 didn't reduce his will enough to stop Geostigma. If that doesn't do it, nothing will. So following this logic, and considering that Jenova cells are the only other component... well, I'm sure you see what I mean. But just to be clear, the J-cells gotta go if you can't overcome Sephiroth's will.
Right before the battle with Sephiroth, Cloud has another “flash” of images. These had been running through his head throughout the movie every time his Geostigma acted up, heavily hinting that it was the Jenova cells that caused them. You can even see what appears to be blood cells in a microscope view in-between the images of Sephiroth. In fact, in Complete, one of the flashes even causes his pupils to become more like Sephiroth’s. And isn’t shape shifting one of Jenova’s most utilized abilities?
I believe Cloud's eyes went cat-slitted in the original AC as well as ACC, as I recall wondering if they would do so during those times that he falls under Sephiroth's control if there ever is a remake. And yes, the flashes he experiences are remarkably similar between his Geostigma attacks and his "what do you care about most?" moment. There are also key differences, however. His earlier flashes were always accompanied by a rather unpleasant ringing/whining noise and what I can only describe as "flashing" sounds, as well as showing both the cells you mentioned and visions of Sephiroth himself. Reminders, just as Sephy wanted during CoLSB. The final series of mental flashes, on the other hand, are not accompanied by these unpleasant audio effects, and nowhere does unpleasant/evil imagery appear within them. The similarities, imo, are due to the fact that both types of flashes appear within Cloud's mind. But I highly doubt Jenova cells would flash images to Cloud that actively motivated him to recover from a losing position and ruin Sephiroth's shit the way that final series of images did. It'd be rather counterproductive, wouldn't you say?
So, without some kind of definitive statement, this conclusion must be erroneous. There is clearly no such established fact in the movie, but if there’s a Word of God, I’m discontinuitying the Hell out of it. It's an incredibly stupid idea that would completely break the plot.
You heard it here folks, without a definitive statement the concept of J-cells being removed from Cloud is erroneous, but the idea that he still has them is 100% more valid despite there being no definitive statement of that either. There is clearly no established fact in the movie for either conclusion, but NB's is correct because... well because he said so I guess. I dunno what that's all about. And wtf do you mean, you're "discontinuitying" the hell out of it if there's a Word of God? What does that even mean?
Anyway, this clearly isn't a really stupid idea, nor is it a retcon. It's entirely feasible, and it certainly wouldn't break the plot unless you're convinced Cloud MUST get weaker unless he has J-cells within his body forever and ever because they're bonded to his own genetic structure. Although, if that were the case I feel Shinra would bloody well stop referring to them as "Jenova cells" once they were within the body and coin a different moniker for them that describes the concept more properly. Kinda like S-cells, being Sephiroth's unique Jenova/human hybrid cells, perhaps...
So there ya go NB, a response to your original claims that you'd prove your point without all the crap between here and there. So, you got a comeback, or you just gonna continue to cry moar about how misrepresented and ganged up upon you are?
Likewise for yours? Or are you going to insist on different standards for the two explanations in a case where one of two things must have happened, but in which there's been no definitive statement about either?
NB said:
There is clearly no such established fact in the movie, but if there’s a Word of God, I’m discontinuitying the Hell out of it.
Not when you already insist on using an explanation for Genesis and Weiss (transfer of genetic data occurred without fusion of cells) that easily resolves this matter as well.
EverybodysGrudge said:
It occurs to me now that Denzel and the other children who were not outside when the rain fell still had Geostigma even after Sephy's defeat ...
They still had the cells, but whether they still had the condition itself is unclear. As we've discussed, it seems that most people in the fictional world would use "geostigma" as the name for the infection.
Denzel still had his nasty head sores, which vaporized (ha, the word came up again! ) when Cloud baptized him in the holy spring. And the other kids that jump in yell out about how it doesn't hurt anymore and stuff when they go in.
Thus, it appears that they not only still had the cells, they were still suffering from the effects.
I can't remember any of the kids saying it doesn't hurt anymore, but they were kind of talking over each other. I'm especially unsure of whether they said that in the original Japanese.
It's what the subtitles said Nanaki also comments that there were many children still who's Geostigma hadn't been cured yet, and I assumed he was referring to the condition as a whole rather than just some leftover pus. I could of course be wrong, but these things together led me to believe they were still actively suffering from the condition even after Sephiroth's defeat. Even Moogle Girl, who was outside when the holy rain fell, needed contact with the holy water in some form: Thus I conclude that killing Sephy was enough to allow Aerith to send the holy rain, but not enough to disrupt the infection.
The short version is that a retcon is ANY change to a story, including additions. Also, "discontinuity" refers to a fan ignoring continuity. You guys might want to actually look up these terms before you comment on them.
Now then:
1) "Conjecture with a few facts to make it look good"? No. Just...no. How the cells work is irrelevent. From what we know from the rest of the Compilation, which makes NO distinction between "having Jenova's cells" & "having Jenova's abilities" in cases of SOLDIER infusion, Cloud should have had a decrease in ability. All of these explanations like "he has high spirit energy" & "the cells might work a certain way" are ex post facto justifications that YOU came up with. They are not stated anywhere within the story. The difference between my point & your rebuttal is that my point consists entirely of things we know & what we can conclude from them.
2) Whether or not they are the "same thing" is not only left unstated, it is irrelevent. The logic used to reach that conclusion is also irrelevent, because it sets up a false dichotomy. Leaving all speculation out of it, we already know that Sephiroth's will is easy to overthrow just after he's died. (See: Holy). Therefore, it's already not an "either or" scenario. And even if I allowed you this point, it STILL does not prove that Great Gospel/Greatest Gospel/whatever can undo a SOLDIER infusion.
3) Again, you're "deducing" things out of nowhere. "If Omnislash can't throw off Sephiroth's will, nothing will" is not a logical statement. It is an unsupported assumption.
4) I don't even know what you're talking about here.
There is clearly no established fact in the movie for either conclusion, but NB's is correct because... well because he said so I guess.
My conclusion is more correct because if there is no confirmation of a change, the logical conclusion is that nothing changed. How can you even sit there & try to deny misrepresenting the point when you say things like that literally RIGHT AFTER I explain it to you? And you really think that is a logical standpoint to argue against? Wake up!
So, you got a comeback, or you just gonna continue to cry moar about how misrepresented and ganged up upon you are?
Alright, I let this slide last time because I felt you were being facetious, but seriously, look in a mirror. Right after you whine to me about how my "attitude" is getting on your nerves (which was stupid because I always targeted the argument, not you), you break out with this "cry moar" shit. Quit being a hypocrite. Oh, & here's an idea: If you don't want me to berate you for misrepresenting points & scapegoating, don't misrepresent points & scapegoat! It's not that hard.
The short version is that a retcon is ANY change to a story, including additions. Also, "discontinuity" refers to a fan ignoring continuity. You guys might want to actually look up these terms before you comment on them.
Well, that's not what comes to mind at all when I hear the word retcon. This is likely because common is generally with regards to changing established events rather than adding to them (though of course adding a character or even at some point in the past is a retcon by anyone's definition). An actual progression in the story thus never fit this category for me, but I do now see why you felt comfortable using the term. But even if it can be called a retcon, there is nothing plot breaking about it, whether you discontinuity the hell out of it or not.
1) "Conjecture with a few facts to make it look good"? No. Just...no. How the cells work is irrelevent. From what we know from the rest of the Compilation, which makes NO distinction between "having Jenova's cells" & "having Jenova's abilities" in cases of SOLDIER infusion, Cloud should have had a decrease in ability. All of these explanations like "he has high spirit energy" & "the cells might work a certain way" are ex post facto justifications that YOU came up with. They are not stated anywhere within the story. The difference between my point & your rebuttal is that my point consists entirely of things we know & what we can conclude from them.
Yes, just yes. How the cells work is entirely relevant if your assertions are that I am wrong and the cells have to remain present in the body for the benefits they initially bestow upon the subject to persist. I never claimed Cloud just had high spirit energy, and you know it, so back right the fuck up on that note chief. That was some sarcastic bullshit you pulled (which to be fair did spark a briefly amusing sub-discussion so thanks for that). So no, that was a false justification that YOU came up with. As for the cells functioning to mutate the hosts genetic structure, thus heavily boosting strength, endurance, and other such physical traits, as well as the subjects ability with magic, yes I assert that once the Jenova cells have done their work, their presence in the body is no longer required for these various attributes to remain with no signigicant reduction. You asserted that the cells are "obviously not free floating in the body" and remain unable to give me any direct evidence as to why that should be. That's what I mean by conjecture, which you in turn support by repeating yourself and spouting largely unrelated facts.
2) Whether or not they are the "same thing" is not only left unstated, it is irrelevent. The logic used to reach that conclusion is also irrelevent, because it sets up a false dichotomy. Leaving all speculation out of it, we already know that Sephiroth's will is easy to overthrow just after he's died. (See: Holy). Therefore, it's already not an "either or" scenario. And even if I allowed you this point, it STILL does not prove that Great Gospel/Greatest Gospel/whatever can undo a SOLDIER infusion.
In your original post, which I went back and responded to as if it were new, you made the point that in the OG Great Gospel did not remove Cloud's Jenova cells. So yes, the fact that what I chose to call Greatest Gosepel in my post is not the exact same thing we saw in the OG is very relevant in countering your argument. Don't pretend a statement made directly to counter your statement is irrelevant and hope I'll forget about it. And in what way does this create a false dichotomy exactly? Aside from the fact that it doesn't support your logic of course. Continuing with your post, we saw in the OG that Sephiroth's will was not at all easy to overthrow after death, in fact Cloud had to utilize his unique mental connection to Sephiroth to follow him into the Lifestream (or was sucked in, I'm not clear on this one tbh) AFTER he was killed, and defeat his will all over again. Now, this was fairly easy, as evidenced by the unloseable scripted battle that we're shown to symobolize that battle. Now, to me this actually supports some of my points, namely that just killing Sephiroth's current physical body (whether it be by way of Omnislash or its derivative forms or anything else) alone is not sufficient to fully break down his will. In the OG, killing his physical body reduced his will greatly, but Cloud still had to "finish him off" in that final mental duel. Similarly, in AC killing him reduces his will sufficiently that Aerith can spread the water from the Church as Greatest Gospel, but not sufficiently to inactivate the Jenova cells and stop the children's Geostigma for those who were not outside. Thus, I continue to assert that if it was not Sephiroth's will that was removed from the equation, it must have been Jenova's cells. Whether they were just neutralized/inactivated or destroyed I cannot say for certain, but based on the rain/spring's ability to destroy the surface symptoms of the condition, as well as seemingly alleviate the pain and weakness entirely, that destruction is the way it happened.
3) Again, you're "deducing" things out of nowhere. "If Omnislash can't throw off Sephiroth's will, nothing will" is not a logical statement. It is an unsupported assumption.
Oops, kinda mixed my response to this point in with my response to point #2, and I'm very tired so cba to fix it. Oh well, not like it's hard to find. But, a point concerning your use of the word "deducing." I don't know if it was directed at you, or if it was even in this thread, I think I mentioned how tired I am right? Either way, Tres made a post at some point referring to both deductive reasoning and inductive reasoning. I cba to link to it or even look it up to quote or c/p it for the aforementioned reason, but it boiled down to "If you use just deductive or just inductive reasoning you will often miss the correct conclusion, you have to use both to get the full picture." Think about that, with regards to the points we're making.
4) I don't even know what you're talking about here.[/QUOTE]
You pointed out Cloud's repeated mental flashes of Sephiroth/blood cells/etc during Geostigma attacks, as well as his change to cat-eyes during one of them. As "proofz" that Cloud still has Jenova cells after his Geostigma cured in the Church, you pointed out his flashes just before defeating Sephiroth at the movie's climax. I pointed out several differences between the two, likened the similarities to the fact that both types of flash occur in Cloud's mind, and further asserted that it'd be fucking stupidly counterproductive to Sephiroth (the guiding will behind Geostigma, the one who controls Jenova completely) for J-cells to show Cloud flashes of his loved ones living and dead and motivate him to draw out his full strength and curbstomp Sephy. That final flash is unrelated to Jenova, Sephiroth stated he wanted to take from Cloud the thing he cherishes most, Cloud's mind flashes on people living and dead that he cherishes. Why was that so hard to comprehend exactly? Did I slip into some archaic dialect in my last post without noticing?
Fixed that for you To be fair, without confirmation you have every right to consider that nothing has changed. Except that a whole lotta shit changed. So do you still assert that Sephiroth's will was removed, and that's what cured Geostigma? Or is it some other concept entirely now? I said a long time ago you're entitled to your interpretation, but I also put my foot down that everyone else does too until a concrete statement is given by the creators.
Alright, I let this slide last time because I felt you were being facetious, but seriously, look in a mirror. Right after you whine to me about how my "attitude" is getting on your nerves (which was stupid because I always targeted the argument, not you), you break out with this "cry moar" shit. Quit being a hypocrite. Oh, & here's an idea: If you don't want me to berate you for misrepresenting points & scapegoating, don't misrepresent points & scapegoat! It's not that hard.[/COLOR]
This sounds a lot like crying moar to me. Not surprising really. Did it occur to you that someone can be facetious twice? That there's not a Law of Physiics binding me to making facetious statements only once in a row? I wasn't, of course, but I am guessing you didn't even consider the possibility. And you let it slide, eh? Whatcha gonna do buddy, reach through the interwebs and spank me? Feh.
As for your targeting my argument, if you did so with a less haughty "My theory is obviously right and yours is bullshit" manner I wouldn't have seen attitude in it. Your ability to look at your theory and see concrete fact, while looking at a conflicting theory down the length of your nose, that speaks of attitude to me. And its not hypocritical at all, from my perspective. You gave me attitude, I gave it back plus some. If you don't like it, bugger off and give me someone who knows how to debate, because at this point your repetitions of the same assertions and inability to acknowledge the validity of another's logic even when they extend that courtesy to you on multiple occasions (and I did agree that I had been examining/discussing some of your points from an incorrect vantage, thus "misrepresenting" you earlier), it's no longer providing me with lulz. And for a fair bit here, that's all your side of the "debate" has really been worth to me, lulz. So, third time's the charm, so you know for sure I mean it:
Cloud gets his abilities from the Jenova cells. Neither Aerith nor anyone else in the past had the power to destroy Jenova.
Contradicting either of those breaks the plot. Your theory does both.
Yes, just yes. How the cells work is entirely relevant if your assertions are that I am wrong and the cells have to remain present in the body for the benefits they initially bestow upon the subject to persist.
It would be relevent if it was explained to work that way, yes. Since it is not & therefore you essentially made that up, it is not relevent.
I never claimed Cloud just had high spirit energy, and you know it, so back right the fuck up on that note chief. That was some sarcastic bullshit you pulled (which to be fair did spark a briefly amusing sub-discussion so thanks for that). So no, that was a false justification that YOU came up with.
First of all, I was using the plural you. As in you & Tres & others who share your views. I should have been more clear there & for that I apologize.
However, I did not come up with that. I sarcastically referred to it, yes, but it was already seriously expressed by others in the thread long ago.
As for the cells functioning to mutate the hosts genetic structure, thus heavily boosting strength, endurance, and other such physical traits, as well as the subjects ability with magic, yes I assert that once the Jenova cells have done their work, their presence in the body is no longer required for these various attributes to remain with no signigicant reduction.
So the genetic mutation passes on all of the abilities without passing on the ability to be influenced by Sephiroth's will? I wanna see something that tells us that before I consider this a valid argument.
You asserted that the cells are "obviously not free floating in the body" and remain unable to give me any direct evidence as to why that should be. That's what I mean by conjecture, which you in turn support by repeating yourself and spouting largely unrelated facts.
I don't know if I actually said that or not, but I have given you evidence. Once again, in Case of Shinra, the doctor says that Geostigma contains cells that are similar to those found in SOLDIER. In other words, the cells of SOLDIER operatives are altered. As well, Hollander explains that SOLDIER conditioning causes the cells to break down within the body & bond to the genes.
While I am repeating myself involving Hollander, let's recap reasons he's probably not right about the S cells: One, he said that Jenova cells would cure them. Oh, he can't get Jenova cells. Ah, but Zack & Cloud have S CELLS! The sample from Zack doesn't work. Oh, obviously, it was impure because he was SOLDIER!
If any of his hypothesese were accurate, why did he not foresee these problems? It sounds more like he's desperate & making shit up. Also, we are regularly shown that Hollander is a second-rate scientist.
In your original post, which I went back and responded to as if it were new, you made the point that in the OG Great Gospel did not remove Cloud's Jenova cells. So yes, the fact that what I chose to call Greatest Gosepel in my post is not the exact same thing we saw in the OG is very relevant in countering your argument. Don't pretend a statement made directly to counter your statement is irrelevant and hope I'll forget about it.
*Sigh.* Provide evidence that it's not only significantly different, but that these differences would allow it to destroy Jenova cells. Then I will consider it relevent.
And in what way does this create a false dichotomy exactly? Aside from the fact that it doesn't support your logic of course.
I explained it to you right there that there was no reason to believe Sephiroth's will was thrown off. The cells could be sealed off inside of the body. The actual diseased tissue could be restored. The body's defenses could be improved. All of these would result in the healing of Geostigma, assuming they were true.
False. Dichotomy.
Continuing with your post, we saw in the OG that Sephiroth's will was not at all easy to overthrow after death, in fact Cloud had to utilize his unique mental connection to Sephiroth to follow him into the Lifestream (or was sucked in, I'm not clear on this one tbh) AFTER he was killed, and defeat his will all over again. Now, this was fairly easy, as evidenced by the unloseable scripted battle that we're shown to symobolize that battle. Now, to me this actually supports some of my points, namely that just killing Sephiroth's current physical body (whether it be by way of Omnislash or its derivative forms or anything else) alone is not sufficient to fully break down his will.
In the OG, killing his physical body reduced his will greatly, but Cloud still had to "finish him off" in that final mental duel. Similarly, in AC killing him reduces his will sufficiently that Aerith can spread the water from the Church as Greatest Gospel, but not sufficiently to inactivate the Jenova cells and stop the children's Geostigma for those who were not outside. Thus, I continue to assert that if it was not Sephiroth's will that was removed from the equation, it must have been Jenova's cells. Whether they were just neutralized/inactivated or destroyed I cannot say for certain, but based on the rain/spring's ability to destroy the surface symptoms of the condition, as well as seemingly alleviate the pain and weakness entirely, that destruction is the way it happened.
Honestly? This seems contrived to me. It's a hypothesis being used to argue a hypothesis.
Oops, kinda mixed my response to this point in with my response to point #2, and I'm very tired so cba to fix it. Oh well, not like it's hard to find. But, a point concerning your use of the word "deducing." I don't know if it was directed at you, or if it was even in this thread, I think I mentioned how tired I am right? Either way, Tres made a post at some point referring to both deductive reasoning and inductive reasoning. I cba to link to it or even look it up to quote or c/p it for the aforementioned reason, but it boiled down to "If you use just deductive or just inductive reasoning you will often miss the correct conclusion, you have to use both to get the full picture." Think about that, with regards to the points we're making.
I remember & he had a very excellent point. That does not mean you guys' argument holds water, though.
You pointed out Cloud's repeated mental flashes of Sephiroth/blood cells/etc during Geostigma attacks, as well as his change to cat-eyes during one of them. As "proofz" that Cloud still has Jenova cells after his Geostigma cured in the Church, you pointed out his flashes just before defeating Sephiroth at the movie's climax. I pointed out several differences between the two, likened the similarities to the fact that both types of flash occur in Cloud's mind, and further asserted that it'd be fucking stupidly counterproductive to Sephiroth (the guiding will behind Geostigma, the one who controls Jenova completely) for J-cells to show Cloud flashes of his loved ones living and dead and motivate him to draw out his full strength and curbstomp Sephy. That final flash is unrelated to Jenova, Sephiroth stated he wanted to take from Cloud the thing he cherishes most, Cloud's mind flashes on people living and dead that he cherishes. Why was that so hard to comprehend exactly? Did I slip into some archaic dialect in my last post without noticing?
If you are talking about what Cloud sees right before he uses Omnislash Ver. 5/6, then it COULD be because that was never what my point was about. My point was about what Cloud sees right before the battle, which is almost exactly the same as his other flashes, albeit less intense.
I died & came back to life. Prove me wrong. Oh, what's that? You can't do it? Well, then, I guess the conclusions that I did & did not ressurrect myself from the dead are equally valid.
To be fair, without confirmation you have every right to consider that nothing has changed. Except that a whole lotta shit changed.
So do you still assert that Sephiroth's will was removed, and that's what cured Geostigma?
I do not now nor have I ever asserted that. Any time I mentioned that, it was just a hypothetical to show how it is not automatically true that the Jenova cells were affected, much less destroyed.
I have always maintained that I personally feel it is just a physical cure, in the same way that Great Gospel heals normal status effects.
I said a long time ago you're entitled to your interpretation, but I also put my foot down that everyone else does too until a concrete statement is given by the creators.
Not all logic is valid, I'm afraid. You are certainly entitled to your interpretation. However, & I acknowledge ahead of time that this is a slightly loaded example: Creationists will often cite that evolutionary biologists don't take their ideas seriously. They claim they are being "censored" & that the scientists are "afraid" to debate with them. This, of course, is not true. They simply do not have good arguments. There is absolutely no reason that a person has to treat EVERY SINGLE idea they are introduced to as equal to the current idea.
Honestly, I don't know what you expect to gain by acting offended. I've had several days to mull this over now. If I was going to feel bad for treating a bad argument badly, I would have done it by now.
It's what the subtitles said Nanaki also comments that there were many children still who's Geostigma hadn't been cured yet, and I assumed he was referring to the condition as a whole rather than just some leftover pus. I could of course be wrong, but these things together led me to believe they were still actively suffering from the condition even after Sephiroth's defeat.
I feel like Sephy's will was out of the picture by then, but I guess their immune systems and wounds wouldn't instantly revert to normal even without it actively involved. The water does seem to have actual healing properties given that it repairs Cloud's body.
In any event, as there are people still carrying JENOVA's cells around in Dirge of Cerberus, I doubt that geostigma itself remained in effect following Sepihroth's most recent death.
EG said:
Even Moogle Girl, who was outside when the holy rain fell, needed contact with the holy water in some form ...
Additions to the original story's past, yes. New developments in the future (like Advent Children) are not considered retcons, as they're not added to the past.
Also, in EG's defense, let me remind you of what you said earlier: "I'm not 'pretending I know some big secret.' Cloud's Jenova cells are not gone & everyone should know it. Why should everyone know it? Because it was never retconned!"
What you were saying here implied that you were using "retcon" in its common pejorative sense -- that of a contradiction to past events. Since you insist that you're using it in its basic form, I'd just like to point out to you that there's nothing to retcon in any sense of the word by Cloud losing his JENOVA cells.
There's no more a contradiction here nor an addition to be added to details in the past than there is anything to contradict or retroactively add in Sephiroth's will being interfered with in any capacity by rain from Aerith or the Lifestream.
There was never anything to tell us that a person was incapable of having JENOVA cells removed, so for it to happen later -- and via magical means at that -- is not a big deal. For that matter, even in cases where we're told that something can't be undone in stories like this, it often is.
Look at Palom and Porom in FFIV -- self-petrification was apparently irreversible, but it didn't last. Look at Dagger and the "irreversible" spell cast on her by Zorn and Thorn to put her to sleep. Look at
the "eternal sleep" of a l'Cie who completes their Focus
in FFXIII.
Amongst incidents like this, the fact that we don't even have a statement that JENOVA cells are irremovable means some being removed later does not qualify as an instance of a retcon in any sense of speaking. It's just a new development period, like geostigma itself.
NB said:
Also, "discontinuity" refers to a fan ignoring continuity. You guys might want to actually look up these terms before you comment on them.
Given the above, I think I have a better grasp of what a retcon is than you do, man. As for "discontinuity," I knew what you were talking about. Likewise, you should be aware that it's completely irrelevant what a fan chooses to do in discussions about the official continuity.
I personally discontinuity Before Crisis, Crisis Core, Case of Yuffie, Case of Nanaki, and sometimes Dirge of Cerberus. But whether I do that is irrelevant to whether they exist.
NB said:
"Conjecture with a few facts to make it look good"?
And there's the problem EG and I are having with your side of this discussion. Your argument just comes back to "No" every time. There's no statement-explanation combo from you like "Jenova cells don't just remain free-floating in the body. They actually fuse with the host's own cells. Here's how we know that."
All you offer is "No" or the occasional invalid argument that it retcons something -- even though it's not affecting anything that happened in the past at all -- or that it can't happen now since it's never happened before, despite the film being full of things that had never happened before and despite the very explanations you've proposed to try explaining Cloud's lost geostigma requiring something to happen that had never happened before.
NB said:
My conclusion is more correct because if there is no confirmation of a change, the logical conclusion is that nothing changed.
Which is a false dilemma given that the retcon discussion doesn't even apply to this topic, and also completely illogical given that there's no confirmation of a number of things that are nonetheless evident -- not just for Dissidia (for which this has come up a lot, and which is a point you have made about it as well), but also AC/C.
Most obvious example? Here, we find Aerith's rain doing something that interferes with at least one half of the infection that causes geostigma (Sephiroth's will + presence of JENOVA cells). Nothing spells this out for us, but it's evident, and both of your proposed alternatives to the explanation EG and I have offered (including the one in your most recent post) require it.
How about the SHM's weapons being made of Negative Lifestream? If they had the weapons before they had their clothes (which definitely formed from Negative Lifestream), and if Sephiroth's Masamune formed from the same stuff right before our eyes, and we see a new Souba form for Kadaj after he'd lost his old one, that would be the logical conclusion to draw, wouldn't it? We had to conjecture our way there, but that's the best supported conclusion nonetheless.
Hell, we were never even outright told that it was JENOVA cells inside Cloud that allowed for Sephiroth to be able to access his mind and control him, but through conjecture we arrive at that conclusion because there's so much evidence for it between the Reunion concept, its effect on the accessory shopkeeper in Junon, Sephiroth's general control over parts of JENOVA, and the very fact of the manipulation itself.
NB said:
Cloud gets his abilities from the Jenova cells.
Neither Aerith nor anyone else in the past had the power to destroy Jenova.
Neither Aerith nor anyone else in the past had the power to neutralize Sephiroth's will via magic before either, but you don't seem to take much objection to the idea of that new development.
And I'm pretty sure we see quite a bit of JENOVA's shit getting fucked up in the original game.
NB said:
Contradicting either of those breaks the plot. Your theory does both.
How does our explanation contradict Cloud getting his abilities from the JENOVA cells? Once his own cells have mutated, why would JENOVA's have to stay to maintain the effect?
I've already offered you an illustration of Optimus Primal and Megatron's final transformations from "Beast Wars" --
one involving the Autobox Matrix and the other the original Megatron's spark.
What makes this different from those events? Why don't the two characters go back to the forms they were in prior?
What's fundamentally different about these two scenarios? I see no difference.
NB said:
Once again, in Case of Shinra, the doctor says that Geostigma contains cells that are similar to those found in SOLDIER. In other words, the cells of SOLDIER operatives are altered.
Which is what one would expect to be the case in the event of a plasmid-like transfer of genetic information. That doesn't mean the alien cells fused with the host's.
NB said:
As well, Hollander explains that SOLDIER conditioning causes the cells to break down within the body & bond to the genes.
Where and when does he say this? He only has about 20 lines in the whole game, but I've not been able to find him saying such a thing.
NB said:
I explained it to you right there that there was no reason to believe Sephiroth's will was thrown off. The cells could be sealed off inside of the body. The actual diseased tissue could be restored. The body's defenses could be improved. All of these would result in the healing of Geostigma, assuming they were true.
You still need to reconcile the destroyed physical material we witness with whatever explanation you suggest, though. And sealing off the cells beyond where Seph's will can reach them is still a new development.
What diseased tissue, by the way?
NB said:
Not all logic is valid, I'm afraid. You are certainly entitled to your interpretation. However, & I acknowledge ahead of time that this is a slightly loaded example: Creationists will often cite that evolutionary biologists don't take their ideas seriously. They claim they are being "censored" & that the scientists are "afraid" to debate with them. This, of course, is not true. They simply do not have good arguments. There is absolutely no reason that a person has to treat EVERY SINGLE idea they are introduced to as equal to the current idea.
In fairness, doesn't your opening post and the existence of this thread treat Cloud losing his JENOVA cells as the current idea? That's what most people who have thought about it believe, right? You're suggesting an alternative to the "established" understanding, no?
Doesn't that mean you're in the Creationist spot in this debate and need to be the one to step forward?
EG and I obviously haven't been afraid to debate with you, nor have we withheld our reasoning at any point. For God's sake, we're still asking you to properly explain your claim that the cells don't remain free-floating within the body.
By the way, I have a new question for you. Kadaj joined the JENOVA cells with himself, right? So, they become part of him and he technically had a body of organic material at that point?
So, when we see him die in the film's ending, and his entire body gets destroyed, if the rain doesn't destroy JENOVA cells, how do you explain what we see there?
