Jenova Cells Can't be "Erased"

[Gym Leader Devil]

You funny Q.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

"If Sephiroth is exerting his will & Cloud still has Jenova cells, then he should be able to take control of Cloud, because the cells should be responding to his will."

It's the exact same argument, & it is clearly wrong.

That's not the kind of argument I'm making at all. If you want to compare it to the situation at the end of FFVII, you'd say "JENOVA cells within Cloud allow Sephiroth to continue accessing Cloud's mind as long as Sephiroth's will is being exerted" -- and that is true.

Even when Seph's body was gone, he and Cloud were still in mental contact and their final battle was a mental one.

Sephiroth being able to access Cloud's mind does not in itself lend to the idea that Sephiroth can control Cloud, however. He could control him earlier in the story because Cloud was weak mentally. He became stronger during the course of the story, though, and by the time he'd learned what really happened in Nibelheim five years before and admitted it all to his friends, he'd accepted himself for who he was: a weakling.

But doing that meant he knew himself. He suddenly had a strong sense of his own identity -- like a SOLDIER should.

You'll notice that an accessory shopkeeper in Junon is a former member of SOLDIER, and though he felt Sephiroth's will calling him to the Reunion like the Sephiroth copies, it barely manifest itself with him. All it did was cause him to feel an impulse to put on a black cloak:

I used to be in SOLDIER. Recently, I've felt like dressing up like this... I don't know why, it's out of season, but...

Beyond that, nothing.

Yeah, that's the problem. You set up a tailored analogy that had little to no semblence to the actual point. All of your analogies thus far have failed, because they simply are irrelevent. I honestly don't care if this is what you were "talking about," this is a proper comparison. If one assumed that the designers were trying to convey important plot information with this visual effect, one would have been wrong. If one assumed that the glyph that appears when Kadaj summons Bahamut Sin had some deeper meaning than "I'm using a summon," one would be guessing.

That's a ridiculous distortion. You're saying that an event which clearly occurred in a film several times is comparable to an enemy flashing red and vanishing in the player's battle interface from a game where such absurdities as getting shot with machine guns and cut in half with giant scissors causes no significant harm.

It's not the same thing at all and you know it.

We're clearly shown that Aerith's rain is capable of destroying the physical material that has been expunged from people's bodies. End of discussion there. It happens. Several times over. It's not debatable in the slightest.

It happens as certainly and definitively as Cloud Omnislashing Sephiroth to hell and Reno and Rude setting off a bomb in front of Yazoo and Loz. It's irrefutable.

You can seek to explain what you think it means, but you can't argue that it didn't actually happen.

I never said it didn't happen.

You kind of did. You compared it to the red flashing death sequences of enemies in the original game. That's saying it didn't happen.

I said that it doesn't indicate what you say it does. It's a trail of something exiting from a body. Attributing an exact meaning to that beyond "it's curing Geostigma" is a leap. As I said before, looking back, it appears to be mako. If that's the case, one could liken it to soap suds: Involved in the cleansing, but doesn't come from you at all.

So you're going to ignore the physical material that was there on the surface prior to the rain falling, and which then fizzled and vaporized?

I'm not talking about the cure. I'm talking about the symptoms. Cloud has a localized excretion on the surface of his skin just like any of the other sufferers.

That's...great?

Which means his body is trying to force an infection out, as with them. Which would suggest it's not his very DNA that his body is trying to force out.

Seriously, look how Vincent talks about it:

The stigma. It's a symptom of alien matter infesting the body. The body tries to eliminate it and overcompensates. Inside our bodies is a current, like the Lifestream. That current is what fights off any malevolent intruders.

He's clearly talking about material that's free-floating within the body and can be removed. Why else do we see people's bodies trying to force the shit out?

It's not that the Jenova cells exchange information & stay floating around in the bloodstream. It's that they become a permanent part of the organism's genetic code. Again, this is pretty flatly stated both in Crisis Core & Case of Shinra.

It isn't stated at all. All that's made clear is that the presence of JENOVA's cells alters the genetic code of the host -- which an exchange and incorporation of genetic information would do, as you yourself argued only a day ago.

Also, again, how else do you explain that Weiss doesn't have any actual JENOVA material within him despite having Genesis's genes? If Gillian's actual cells had been merged with by JENOVA's, then Genesis's cells should contain JENOVA's actual physical material too -- in which case Weiss's would as well.

Yet they don't. Clearly, genetic information can be exchanged to a human's cells from JENOVA's without merging the two sets of cells.

Let me put it this way:

When they say "injected with Jenova cells," they mean "had their genetic code infused with Jenova's."

Which isn't the same thing as "the cells merged with the host's own." You're still just talking about an exchange and application of genetic information.

Granted, via injection & then the Jenova cells did the work themselves, but whatever. It can be likened to how "Sephiroth clone" really meant "someone who went through a certain procedure to see if Sephiroth's powers could be duplicated."

That's not what Sephiroth copies were at all. They were just Hojo's experimental subjects to test the JENOVA Reunion Theory. That's made obvious in the original game and outright stated in the Ultimania Omega (pg. 213).

The reason Cloud would be weakened as a result of having his Jenova cells removed is, again, that the reason he's so strong to begin with is because he has "Jenova's powers to a lesser extent."

Which he would retain without the cells if his own have been mutated.

Again, you would not have cells floating in the bloodstream after the infusion was completed. That's why you can't remove them without undoing the subject's abilities.

Here, by the way, you used the conclusion you're trying to argue in support of as support for that same conclusion!

You've been claiming that you can't remove the cells from a subject without reducing their abilities, and -- in support of that position -- you said that the cells wouldn't just remain free-floating within a person's body because you can't remove the cells from a subject without reducing their abilities.

Wtf, man?

Where was it said that the clones were killed to supply life energy?

It wasn't.

Honestly, I don't see how the spirit energy of a few Sephiroth copies could be expected to tip the scale any more than the dozens of people Sephiroth had already massacred while dicking around. He obviously already had the energy he needed to cast Meteor, and there's only one obvious purpose for what he was doing in killing the copies and sending them into the crater -- this was the Reunion after all.

 

[Neo Bahamut]

Can I get a direct quote of what the doctor says about Zack? I do not recall it myself, and don't wish to comment without better knowledge of such.

Hollander. And if I can find a game script, then sure.

Where was it said that the clones were killed to supply life energy?

I'm pretty sure if it was, but even if it wasn't, Sephiroth's goal was to absorb Lifestream, so yeah.

EDIT: This is the best I could find. Hollander says, "Because you were SOLDIER, the S cells are already deteriorating." It still conveys the basic point: In SOLDIERs, the cells break down into the genetic code.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pA8npCe2ufE

 

[Neo Bahamut]

Sephiroth being able to access Cloud's mind does not in itself lend to the idea that Sephiroth can control Cloud, however.

Sephiroth being able to access Cloud's cells does not itself lend to the idea that he can trigger another Geostigma attack.

It's the same argument.

It's not the same thing at all and you know it.

It is the exact same type of argument.

Red flashing=Visual cue that the enemy is dead.

Glyph=Visual cue that a summon is being used.

Vapor=Visual cue that Geostigma is being cured.

Structurally, attributing deeper meanings to all of these would be the exact same thing. Structurally, "they must not really be atheletic" is not even anywhere close to being the same argument. "Atheletic" is not a visual cue. "Jumping," "slashing," etc. are not the same visual cues. You are the one distorting the point. Not me.

We're clearly shown that Aerith's rain is capable of destroying the physical material that has been expunged from people's bodies. End of discussion there. It happens. Several times over. It's not debatable in the slightest.

The Hell it is. I've already come up with explanations that do not require those assertions. "Destroyed," in particular, is a very vague term. "Destroyed" how? "Vaporized" how? Obviously, we are not talking about thermal vaporization. If you're going to attempt to get that specific in determining the "why" of the cure, then these are questions that you must address.

You can seek to explain what you think it means, but you can't argue that it didn't actually happen.

Are you talking to yourself, here? I'm not arguing that Geostigma was not cured. I'm not "seeking to explain what I think it means." I'm correcting the very incorrect assertion that "the plot tells us Cloud no longer has Jenova cells."

You kind of did. You compared it to the red flashing death sequences of enemies in the original game. That's saying it didn't happen.

No it's not & I think you need to read more carefully if you think that.

So you're going to ignore the physical material that was there on the surface prior to the rain falling, and which then fizzled and vaporized?

I'm not ignoring anything. I'm proving that you set up a false dichotomy when you said that Great Gospel either separated the cells from Sephiroth's will or destroyed the Jenova cells. If that dichotomy is false, then even if you disproved one of the options--which you really didn't--then it would not prove the other one.

He's clearly talking about material that's free-floating within the body and can be removed. Why else do we see people's bodies trying to force the shit out?

In Geostigma. Not Jenova cell infusion. Case of Shinra very clearly stated that they were similar, but not the same thing.

It isn't stated at all. All that's made clear is that the presence of JENOVA's cells alters the genetic code of the host -- which an exchange and incorporation of genetic information would do, as you yourself argued only a day ago.

If you're going to accuse me of going back on my earlier logic, it would help to provide a quote.

Yet they don't. Clearly, genetic information can be exchanged to a human's cells from JENOVA's without merging the two sets of cells.

Again, read more carefully. I stated earlier that Crisis Core used the term "gene mapping" for Genesis, which is literally reworking the genes themselves. Genesis did not have any Jenova cells. He did not even undergo the Jenova cell infusion.

That's not what Sephiroth copies were at all. They were just Hojo's experimental subjects to test the JENOVA Reunion Theory. That's made obvious in the original game and outright stated in the Ultimania Omega (pg. 213).

NITPICKING PROVES I'M RIGHT!

Wtf, man?

I concur. You got my argument totally backwards. "Removing Jenova cells from a subject would remove their abilities" is not my argument. It's...the truth. That Jenova cell infusion is the core of the abilities of SOLDIER as well as the Reunion is something we've seen time & time again. It follows, therefore, that doing something that would rid you of Jenova's influence (Reunion), in this case described as "removing the Jenova cells," would rid you of all beneficial effects, as well.

From that information is where I begin theorizing. Moreover, that was not my only evidence.

 

[Kai Schulen]

Here's a question

What if... Yazoo had an umbrella... yeah... think about that...

I think he would look real cute with a pretty pink umbrella.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Sephiroth being able to access Cloud's cells does not itself lend to the idea that he can trigger another Geostigma attack.

Why wouldn't it? The cells themselves have no desire or capacity to resist Sephiroth's will, unlike Cloud in the other scenario.

It is the exact same type of argument.

Red flashing=Visual cue that the enemy is dead.

Glyph=Visual cue that a summon is being used.

Vapor=Visual cue that Geostigma is being cured.

Structurally, attributing deeper meanings to all of these would be the exact same thing. Structurally, "they must not really be atheletic" is not even anywhere close to being the same argument. "Atheletic" is not a visual cue. "Jumping," "slashing," etc. are not the same visual cues. You are the one distorting the point. Not me.

I'm not talking about vapor. Why do you keep bringing it up? I'm talking about physical material that is there one moment and then sparkles and has vanished by the next.

"Destroyed," in particular, is a very vague term. "Destroyed" how? "Vaporized" how?

By "destroyed" I'm saying "there one second, gone the next." I'm not seeing the need to get into the specifics of what this means on a mechanical level any more than we need to get into how the SHM were visibly destroyed by the rain.

Are you talking to yourself, here? I'm not arguing that Geostigma was not cured.

And I'm not arguing about whether it was. I'm talking about physical, tangible material that was clearly present one second and had then been removed by the next.

I'm not "seeking to explain what I think it means." I'm correcting the very incorrect assertion that "the plot tells us Cloud no longer has Jenova cells."

No one is making that assertion. The only assertion that has been made is that it can be inferred that Cloud no longer has JENOVA cells based on what is in the plot -- the same as one did with such matters as Squall's parentage, where the plot never outright told us.

No it's not & I think you need to read more carefully if you think that.

The red flashes obviously don't really happen in the fictional world. The shit on geostigma victims really got destroyed ("there one second, gone the next").

There's no comparison between the two.

I'm not ignoring anything. I'm proving that you set up a false dichotomy when you said that Great Gospel either separated the cells from Sephiroth's will or destroyed the Jenova cells. If that dichotomy is false, then even if you disproved one of the options--which you really didn't--then it would not prove the other one.

There was no false dichotomy. The cause of the condition is the presence of the cells plus the presence of Seph's will in those cells. Obviously one has to go for the condition to stop, and you've never offered anything more than the claim that there's more to it than that, or that more could be involved with the cure than interfering in one of those two components of the problem.

And, again, analyzing the matter was never about proving one false -- it was about arguing one as more likely than the other.

Where absolute proof cannot be determined between two or more possible explanations, that doesn't mean there's no room for reasonable inference, nor that one possibility is not more well-supported than another.

In Geostigma. Not Jenova cell infusion. Case of Shinra very clearly stated that they were similar, but not the same thing.

Again, Cloud's manifested symptoms are identical to that of everyone else. He has localized excretions rather than his entire body falling apart like Genesis's.

For that matter, why would the cells be less likely to bond at the cellular level in one instance than another? Especially given that the children who are afflicted with geostigma receive visible physical enhancement as a result of the JENOVA cells being in their bodies?

If you're going to accuse me of going back on my earlier logic, it would help to provide a quote.

The "you yourself argued only a day ago" part of that line was a link to the post in question.

Again, read more carefully. I stated earlier that Crisis Core used the term "gene mapping" for Genesis, which is literally reworking the genes themselves. Genesis did not have any Jenova cells. He did not even undergo the Jenova cell infusion.

I'm a little concerned about that line, "Genesis, who had her genes mapped onto him during the fetal stage." I'm wondering whether it was an inaccurate product of the English localization. The Japanese line (ジリアンの因子を胎児期に移植されたジェネシ&#12473 uses the verb "ishoku" (移&#26893, which can mean both "transplant" and "implant," and the noun "inshi" (因&#23376, which is what got translated as "genes" (it means "factor" or "element").

I'm concerned in part because Japanese has a word for "genes" already (idenshi; 遺伝&#23376, further because the Japanese term for "gene therapy" (idenshichiryou; 遺伝子治&#30274 includes neither "ishoku" nor "inshi," and also because on another occasion where "inshi" was used in a FFVII-related matter, it was referring to JENOVA's cells specifically. You'll recall Vincent and Cloud's conversation in the Sleeping Forest during AC/C, in which Vincent explained that the "intruder" causing geostigma was the "Sephiroth factor/element" (セフィロス因&#23376, which Kadaj explicitly identified as JENOVA's cells during his talk with Rufus earlier: "My brothers and sisters who share Mother's cells will all assemble" (母さんの細胞をもらった仲間が一箇所に集まるん&#12384.

"Saibou" (細&#32990 is "cells."

NITPICKING PROVES I'M RIGHT!

Correcting a mistake on an unrelated matter is not a declaration of victory on the main topic. It is possible to discuss more than one thing at a time.

That Jenova cell infusion is the core of the abilities of SOLDIER as well as the Reunion is something we've seen time & time again.

And yet no one's arguing otherwise. Well, we're also pointing out that mako plays a role in it as well, but no one's denying that JENOVA cells provide some kind of physical augmentation.

It follows, therefore, that doing something that would rid you of Jenova's influence (Reunion), in this case described as "removing the Jenova cells," would rid you of all beneficial effects, as well.

Not when even you are bringing up plasmids.

Again, if Cloud's DNA has changed from the presence of the JENOVA cells, why would removing the cells revert his DNA? According to your argument for Genesis, he has the benefit of JENOVA's genes due to plasmids -- so why is he not denied the "beneficial effects" of those cells since he doesn't actually have them?

Your argument is contradicting itself now. You're saying that Genesis has that genetic information without having JENOVA's cells, but you're saying that Cloud couldn't have it without having JENOVA's cells. You've got to pick one of the two, because you can't have both.

 

[Strangelove]

I'm a little concerned about that line, "Genesis, who had her genes mapped onto him during the fetal stage." I'm wondering whether it was an inaccurate product of the English localization. The Japanese line (ジリアンの因子を胎児期に移植されたジェネシ&#12473 uses the verb "ishoku" (移&#26893, which can mean both "transplant" and "implant," and the noun "inshi" (因&#23376, which is what got translated as "genes" (it means "factor" or "element").

I'm concerned in part because Japanese has a word for "genes" already (idenshi; 遺伝&#23376, further because the Japanese term for "gene therapy" (idenshichiryou; 遺伝子治&#30274 includes neither "ishoku" nor "inshi," and also because on another occasion where "inshi" was used in a FFVII-related matter, it was referring to JENOVA's cells specifically. You'll recall Vincent and Cloud's conversation in the Sleeping Forest during AC/C, in which Vincent explained that the "intruder" causing geostigma was the "Sephiroth factor/element" (セフィロス因&#23376, which Kadaj explicitly identified as JENOVA's cells during his talk with Rufus earlier: "My brothers and sisters who share Mother's cells will all assemble" (母さんの細胞をもらった仲間が一箇所に集まるん&#12384.

"Saibou" (細&#32990 is "cells."

I don't know much/anything about genetics in English (and don't want to go asking my scientist mum so I can go translate video game stuff on the internet), nor in Japanese. I remember struggling a bit with what to call '因子' (IIRC, my internet research told me 'factor' was an old-fashioned term) before going with 'gene' (as in 遺伝因子, which is apparently the same as 遺伝&#23376. (Edit; according to Wikipedia, 「遺伝子」 originally meant 「遺伝する因子」.)

But with my lack of knowledge in this area, there's the distinct possibility that I made a mistake

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Thanks for weighing in, hito. I trust your judgment on this.

So there is a possibility then that 因子 could mean "genes." Of course, we also have it referring to cells during AC/C, so it's tricky.


NB: For the sake of argument, let's assume that "gene mapping" is what was meant. Even assuming that, though, all other points still stand -- particularly the fact that you can't simultaneously make the argument that Cloud could only have JENOVA's abilities while possessing her cells even while you argue that Genesis has them without ever receiving the cells.

 

[Neo Bahamut]

Why wouldn't it? The cells themselves have no desire or capacity to resist Sephiroth's will, unlike Cloud in the other scenario.

Because in both cases, the argument is that Cloud should feel the full affect of Sephiroth's will if the latter is exerting it over the former. It just doesn't work.

I'm not talking about vapor. Why do you keep bringing it up? I'm talking about physical material that is there one moment and then sparkles and has vanished by the next.

Because you said "vapor" when we first got into this "visual effect" debate & have not made any indication that you were referring to a different visual cue until now. Regardless, the situation is the same.

No one is making that assertion. The only assertion that has been made is that it can be inferred that Cloud no longer has JENOVA cells based on what is in the plot -- the same as one did with such matters as Squall's parentage, where the plot never outright told us.

Ah, yes, "what is in the plot." Like "Cloud has always had the strength of a SOLDIER because he's naturally superhuman."

There's no comparison between the two.

You can repeat this as much as you want. It will still be as much of a misrepresentation the thousandth time as it was the first time. I've explained how the arguments are structurally similar several times now. If you refuse to acknowledge that, I don't care. I'm done playing this idiotic "is/is not" game.

And, again, analyzing the matter was never about proving one false -- it was about arguing one as more likely than the other.

See, here's the thing: I do not now, nor have I ever, considered "Cloud does not have Jenova cells anymore" to be in any way a viable interpretation. The evidence for it is at best circumstancial & at worst a complete asspull. There is simply not enough information to support this MAJOR change in the storyline.

Again, Cloud's manifested symptoms are identical to that of everyone else. He has localized excretions rather than his entire body falling apart like Genesis's.

Assuming that he never got secondary exposure to Jenova cells, there is still no reason that a Geostigma infection should not start in one area & move to others.

Random Guessing Time!

My guess as to why it forms on his right arm first is that it's his weapon hand. He'd been using the Buster Sword for a while & the First Tsurugi, in its completed state, is modelled after the Buster Sword. As one can see, his right arm would be linked to the Buster Sword in his thoughts &, therefore, to his memories of Zack.

Especially given that the children who are afflicted with geostigma receive visible physical enhancement as a result of the JENOVA cells being in their bodies?

Do they, or are they just more people with "unsual amounts of spirit energy"?

I don't know. Presumably because it's a different aspect of the cells' abilities. Ifalna tells us that the cells were once used to create a virus that turned people into monsters.

The "you yourself argued only a day ago" part of that line was a link to the post in question.

Okay. Remind me again how this post is contradicting what I'm saying now?

I'm a little concerned about that line, "Genesis, who had her genes mapped onto him during the fetal stage."

Maybe it is. But I have my doubts, mostly because it...works. It explains very well how people with Genesis's cells have abilities comparable to SOLDIER but are not considered to have "Jenova cells."

Correcting a mistake on an unrelated matter is not a declaration of victory on the main topic. It is possible to discuss more than one thing at a time.

No, but that's how it seemed to be presented.

And yet no one's arguing otherwise.

You're arguing that the cells were obviously removed because Geostigma is not being re-activated in Cloud.

Your argument is contradicting itself now. You're saying that Genesis has that genetic information without having JENOVA's cells, but you're saying that Cloud couldn't have it without having JENOVA's cells. You've got to pick one of the two, because you can't have both.

That's not a contradiction, it's a special case. It's not even a Jenova cell infusion, so the usual rules don't apply. Notice how Angeal doesn't degenerate until he absorbs all of those monsters? That Sephiroth doesn't? That none of the other SOLDIERs do? That Cloud doesn't? That the Geostigma victims don't? Genesis is clearly working off a different template.

 

[Dashell]

I think he would look real cute with a pretty pink umbrella.

Would that be Aerith and Yazoo proof?

(okay ill stop spamming now)

 

[Strangelove]

Thanks for weighing in, hito. I trust your judgment on this.

So there is a possibility then that 因子 could mean "genes." Of course, we also have it referring to cells during AC/C, so it's tricky.

I thought 因子 was the smaller parts that made up 細胞, but that's my completely uninformed opinion on a subject I really don't know about

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Ok, not wanting to speak for Tres, so for the instances where your statements are in direct response to his, I wanted to put this disclaimer in play

Because in both cases, the argument is that Cloud should feel the full affect of Sephiroth's will if the latter is exerting it over the former. It just doesn't work.

Myself, I see the argument a wee bit differently than that. Cloud probably did feel the full effect of Sephiroth's will at the end of FFVII, the difference being that his sense of self and mental strength had been restored and he was able to prevent himself from being controlled. Geostigma, on the other hand, does not attack Cloud's will. It directly influences the Jenova cells inside him, stirring them up in such a way that the body's "mini-Lifestream" tries to expunge it from the body, leading to open sores, black puss, low energy, pain, and eventual death. Jenova's cells do not resist Sephiroth's will the way Cloud would, hence Cloud cannot resist it the way he can mind-control.

Because you said "vapor" when we first got into this "visual effect" debate & have not made any indication that you were referring to a different visual cue until now. Regardless, the situation is the same.

Vapor, in the case of Geostigma's obvious surface symptoms being destroyed by contact with the holy rain/holy spring, isn't just a nifty visual effect. Its something actually happening to the sores and puss that constitute symptoms of the stigma. On the other hand, in the OG enemies flashing red and disappearing into thin air is just a nifty visual effect. We can infer that there were corpses when Shinra grunts bought the farm, and we know Midgar Zoloms leave a corpse due to the one Sephiroth killed by way of impaling it on a tree, despite any Zolom you fight disappearing like everything else.

Ah, yes, "what is in the plot." Like "Cloud has always had the strength of a SOLDIER because he's naturally superhuman."

Certain scenes have shown us that Cloud has above average potential with a sword (as seen in BC) and by his defeat of Sephiroth in Nibelheim. But, this doesn't mean he was always superhuman, nor that he didn't benefit from the Jenova/Mako combination Hojo hit him with. Just tht now he is always superhuman, and those sudden surges of spirit energy that allowed him to show off those feats in the past can now be translated into his stronger limit techniques.

You can repeat this as much as you want. It will still be as much of a misrepresentation the thousandth time as it was the first time. I've explained how the arguments are structurally similar several times now. If you refuse to acknowledge that, I don't care. I'm done playing this idiotic "is/is not" game.

I don't see Tres' statement as a misrepresentation at all. And before you accuse me of not reading your posts before I respond, I did read them. I believe I saw what you were trying to say. But, I'm with Tres on that one

See, here's the thing: I do not now, nor have I ever, considered "Cloud does not have Jenova cells anymore" to be in any way a viable interpretation. The evidence for it is at best circumstancial & at worst a complete asspull. There is simply not enough information to support this MAJOR change in the storyline.

We know you don't consider "Jenova Cells are gone" to be a viable or correct assertion. The title of the thread tells us that in and of itself. But, since we have not been directly told "Curing Geostigma removes all Jenova from the body" or "No it doesn't" in any official capacity, we must infer what we can. Evidence is evidence, circumstancial or no evidence leads to a conclusion. Everything we've been over has led me to the conclusion that Cloud's Jenova cells are gone. You can follow the evidence down a different path of course.

Assuming that he never got secondary exposure to Jenova cells, there is still no reason that a Geostigma infection should not start in one area & move to others.

Random Guessing Time!

My guess as to why it forms on his right arm first is that it's his weapon hand. He'd been using the Buster Sword for a while & the First Tsurugi, in its completed state, is modelled after the Buster Sword. As one can see, his right arm would be linked to the Buster Sword in his thoughts &, therefore, to his memories of Zack.

... Wat? What do we mean by "secondary exposure to Jenova cells"? Cloud has been exposed to Jenova cells more often than almost anyone, he was directly infused with them in Nibelheim, he was in the Lifestream when Jenova's cells contaminated it, he witnessed the outpouring of the Lifestream in response to Meteor that was so contaminated, etc.

Now, what does Cloud's memories of Zack have to do with where on his body the stigma manifests? Is there some special memory that causes Denzel to excrete puss from his forehead, or Moogle Girl to have her sores on her neck? I thought that was just kinda random. But, whether it influences where the stigma appears on the body or not, it doesn't change the fact that Cloud's Geostigma is just like everyone else's. Same symptoms, same remedy, everything about it is the standard for the disease. It doesn't appear that it makes any difference in how the Jenova cells came to infect the body with regards to how Geostigma presents as a disease.

Do they, or are they just more people with "unsual amounts of spirit energy"?

Considering that none of them displayed anything beyond normal abilities for a human child until their Reunion Instinct was awakened, I'm guessing that the cells in them did have benefits once activated (the absence of Mako treatments could explain why they reaped no benefits before then). Just look at Moogle Girl, she could barely lift and carry her dead brother prior to that event, and was horribly bent by his weight. I'm guessing you were joking though, and I say good show, I luled a bit.

I don't know. Presumably because it's a different aspect of the cells' abilities. Ifalna tells us that the cells were once used to create a virus that turned people into monsters.

It is true that Jenova cells can have different impacts on people depending on certain factors (I'd love to elaborate on those, except I have no idea what those factors would be). I pointed out earlier that a massive injection of J-cells turned Hojo into a monster, and then further evolved him into a less monstrous but still powerful form. In the case of the kids though, I find my own explanation more fitting than saying they got a different aspect of the cells.

Okay. Remind me again how this post is contradicting what I'm saying now?

You brought up things that, at least when I looked at them, were more supportive of our theories concerning the ability of Jenova cells to influence the abilities of a host by altering their genetic structure without bonding with them on a cellular level. Plasmids, as I recall. The Jenova cells alter the structure of the existing life-forms genetic structure, enhancing physical and magical ability for some (SOLDIER, Sephiroth 'clones', the children) and turning others into monsters (Hojo and the Cetra of 2,000 years ago). But if the cells are removed, there's no reason those changes would disappear.

Maybe it is. But I have my doubts, mostly because it...works. It explains very well how people with Genesis's cells have abilities comparable to SOLDIER but are not considered to have "Jenova cells."

I have my doubts about your doubts The process, as I remember it after refreshing myself, was for Hollander to inject Jenova cells into Gillian. Gillian then conceived and birthed Angeal. Angeal didn't directly inherit Jenova's cells from Gillian, but due to alterations to her genetic structure he too was altered from a normal human. Gillian's genes were also mapped onto an infant Genesis, essentially repeating the process without Gillian going through a second pregnancy. This is why Genesis and Angeal have powers related to Jenova without having Jenova cells, because J-cells had mutated Gillian's genes and through her her offspring.

On that subject, in CC didn't the cells in Cloud get referred to as S-cells, as in Sephiroth's cells? Was that the case for all the Sephiroth copies as well? It was stated there was a difference between the Jenova cells already in Zack from his SOLDIER treatments and those used on Cloud for the Reunion Experiement. If it was indeed Sephiroth's cells, rather than Jenova's, that were infused into Cloud, it lends credence to this theory: Sephiroth being a perfect human/Jenova hybrid gives his cells the same properties of altering a subject's genetic code without having to fuse with them. The cells are, in fact, free-floating in the body.

No, but that's how it seemed to be presented.

For what its worth Tres, I saw what you did there.

You're arguing that the cells were obviously removed because Geostigma is not being re-activated in Cloud.

No one said obviously but you mate. You say its obvious that J-cells can't be erased without a detriment to the subject's performance. We're debating the certainty of that declaration using evidence given to us from the film and OtwtaS, or at least that's what I've been doing since I got off my SHM death tangent. I'm not actually saying you're wrong, myself, just arguing that it is entirely possible and a viable interpretation that the cells are in fact gone.

That's not a contradiction, it's a special case. It's not even a Jenova cell infusion, so the usual rules don't apply. Notice how Angeal doesn't degenerate until he absorbs all of those monsters? That Sephiroth doesn't? That none of the other SOLDIERs do? That Cloud doesn't? That the Geostigma victims don't? Genesis is clearly working off a different template.

It sounds like a contradiction to me. Genesis has abilities based on those of Jenova, as does Angeal. They have those abilities by way of experiments conducted by Doc Hollander for the Jenova project. And yet they do not have Jenova cells. I believe I already stated my views on this above, but to clarify: Sephiroth bonded with Jenova Cells in utero to become a Jenova/human hybrid, thus his cells really are fused with hers. This was possible because he was directly injected while still developing, and the contamination of Lucrecia with Jenova cells was likely a side-effect (that is, she was never meant to be infused herself, only the fetus). Gillian, on the other hand, was purposefully injected, rather than a fetus she was carrying. The object of project G was to have the genetic alterations the J-cells induced in the mother be passed on to the child without said cells existing in the child itself, with the gene mapping used on Genesis essentially being a less effective form of the same results (his powers were one way, where Angeal's were two way, he degraded much earlier and more quickly, etc).

The fact that this is possible clearly shows that Jenova's abilities can be passed down genetically without the cells themselves following. The only way that is possible, in the case of Angeal in particular, is for Gillian's genetic structure itself to have been altered. If the J-cells had fused with her on a genetic level, rather than be free-floating within her body, then the cells themselves would have passed on to him.

 

[Neo Bahamut]

Jenova's cells do not resist Sephiroth's will the way Cloud would, hence Cloud cannot resist it the way he can mind-control.

That is fair, but the argument is still "x would happen if Cloud had Jenova cells," & we can see that this is definitely not how it works.

and we know Midgar Zoloms leave a corpse due to the one Sephiroth killed by way of impaling it on a tree, despite any Zolom you fight disappearing like everything else.

I have never said anything "didn't happen," & I'm a little annoyed that I have to repeat myself on this: The point is that red flashes mean the enemy died. The dissolution of the black sores mean that Geostigma is being cured.

Perhaps I unintentionally obscured the point. In that case, take the other analogy, the one of the glyph. It's not as easy to extrapolate things from, but it DID occur in the movie & we DO know it signifies a summoning. So, what are we going to try & conclude from there? What the glyph is made of? What it says?

Speaking of that summon, does it make sense to argue that the color of summon materia has been ret conned because the materia glows blue?

I don't see Tres' statement as a misrepresentation at all.

So after I flatly explain what my point is & Tres says, "No, the point is THIS," you don't see it as being a misrepresentation?

Is redirection of the analogy. I made the analogy. I think I know what the point was.

Everything we've been over has led me to the conclusion that Cloud's Jenova cells are gone. You can follow the evidence down a different path of course.

Well, you are entitled to your own opinion, of course, but that is patently bullshit. Not only because "everything we've been over" has NOT shown that, but also because of the logic used to reach that conclusion. If you have not been told there has been a major change to the continuity, it is not logical to conclude that there is one.

Really, if this WAS true, it would be such a massive plot point that you would expect it to be outright stated SOMEWHERE.

inb4 Dissidia.

I agree that some events can have multiple interpretations. I do not agree that this is one of those events.

... Wat? What do we mean by "secondary exposure to Jenova cells"? Cloud has been exposed to Jenova cells more often than almost anyone, he was directly infused with them in Nibelheim, he was in the Lifestream when Jenova's cells contaminated it, he witnessed the outpouring of the Lifestream in response to Meteor that was so contaminated, etc.

Yeah. So, even IF nothing but the infusion actually exposed him to Jenova cells, there is STILL no reason to believe that the Geostigma infection can't start out localized.

Now, what does Cloud's memories of Zack have to do with where on his body the stigma manifests?

Do. And the theory is that, since Geostigma is linked to depression & regret, well...yeah.

Is there some special memory that causes Denzel to excrete puss from his forehead, or Moogle Girl to have her sores on her neck?

It's just a guess. It has no bearing on the argument.

Just look at Moogle Girl, she could barely lift and carry her dead brother prior to that event, and was horribly bent by his weight. I'm guessing you were joking though, and I say good show, I luled a bit.

Half-joking. I was also snarking at the fact that the statement could be used to dismiss the plot element any time it came up. Zack, Sephiroth, Angeal, etc? They didn't need Jenova cells, they just had above-average spirit energy!

More seriously, though, I have been thinking about that. I couldn't really offer you an answer, save that CoS does treat Geostigma & SOLDIER conditioning as being different.

Plasmids, as I recall.

Plasmids were just the closest analogy I could come up with. I'm pretty sure I elaborated that it wasn't the same thing even in that post. As well, plasmids...do bond to the genetic level. Presumably, whatever genes make Cloud SOLDIER-level badass would be the same ones Sephiroth can use to fuck with his head.

Maybe Sephiroth can't introduce new shit like Geostigma due to a shortage of raw material to work with (if there were still active cells that were yanked out), but that seems to be unnecessarily bending the concept to suit an interpretation.

This is why Genesis and Angeal have powers related to Jenova without having Jenova cells, because J-cells had mutated Gillian's genes and through her her offspring.

Angeal does have Jenova cells. Also, if what you just said IS what they're going off of, it's critical research failure. I mean, where do they think a fetus GETS most of its cells? It doesn't have bone marrow to make blood, it doesn't have antibodies, & so on.

Sephiroth being a perfect human/Jenova hybrid gives his cells the same properties of altering a subject's genetic code without having to fuse with them. The cells are, in fact, free-floating in the body.

Here's the thing: All evidence indicates that Hollander is full of shit. He tells Genesis that the Jenova cells will cure him. When it doesn't work, he comes up with this "S Cell" bullshit. When THAT doesn't work, OBVIOUSLY Zack was an "impure" sample. He's just getting desparate & making shit up.

It's actually pretty funny.

I'm not actually saying you're wrong, myself, just arguing that it is entirely possible and a viable interpretation that the cells are in fact gone

.

Well, it's not. As I said: Entitled to opinion, but that does not mean the opinion is in any way supported by the continuity.

The fact that this is possible clearly shows that Jenova's abilities can be passed down genetically without the cells themselves following.

The problem may have been in the way I worded the argument, but to be fair, when I'm arguing in specific cases of Jenova cell infusion, & the topic moves to something that IS NOT a Jenova cell infusion, it does not apply to my earlier argument, for obvious reasons.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

That is fair, but the argument is still "x would happen if Cloud had Jenova cells," & we can see that this is definitely not how it works.

I don't see that at all, thanks. "X would happen if Cloud has Jenova cells" is entirely too vague a statement to work when comparing Geostigma with mind control. It's true that both are a result of the interaction between Sephiroth's will and Jenova cells, but there are critical differences beyond that. Mind control is linked directly to Cloud's mind, at the end of FFVII he has regained his sense of self and built up mental defenses, Sephy can still make mental contact but Cloud can actively resist any attempts he makes to control him. Geostigma, on the other hand, is Sephiroth making mental contact with a foreign substance in Cloud's body. It has nothing to do with his mind, and unless Cloud somehow had direct mental control over his body on a cellular level there is nothing he can do about it. So it's not the same argument you're claiming at all.

I have never said anything "didn't happen," & I'm a little annoyed that I have to repeat myself on this: The point is that red flashes mean the enemy died. The dissolution of the black sores mean that Geostigma is being cured.

Perhaps I unintentionally obscured the point. In that case, take the other analogy, the one of the glyph. It's not as easy to extrapolate things from, but it DID occur in the movie & we DO know it signifies a summoning. So, what are we going to try & conclude from there? What the glyph is made of? What it says?

Ok, I see your point a little more clearly now. You may be right, you may indeed have obscured your own point a bit. In which case your annoyance you spoke of regarding repeating yourself, yeah shoulder that yourself mate.

On to what you really meant, yes the red flash means something died, the glyph we see in AC/C is a part of the spell to summon Bahamut (though not all summons have a glyph of any kind), and the green vapor effect is Geostigma being cured and the surface blemishes disappearing. While its not important, I'd say that glyph is just an arcane sigil related to Bahamut and is a part of the summoning itself. It's made of magic/Lifestream, as is the summon itself.

Speaking of that summon, does it make sense to argue that the color of summon materia has been ret conned because the materia glows blue?

The difference in color annoys me, but its not overly important either. Every entry into the Complation has featured differences concerning materia from the OG, from relatively negligible to completely different.

So after I flatly explain what my point is & Tres says, "No, the point is THIS," you don't see it as being a misrepresentation?

Not really. I saw you explain what you were trying to say, and I in turn saw different points being outlined by the statement. He said what he got out of your statement, that that was what it led to when he read it. Not a misrepresentation at all.

Is redirection of the analogy. I made the analogy. I think I know what the point was.

You know what the point you tried to make was. And we know where the statement you made in trying to make said point led us. Sorry if your attempt to lead us to point A actually brought us to point B.

Well, you are entitled to your own opinion, of course, but that is patently bullshit. Not only because "everything we've been over" has NOT shown that, but also because of the logic used to reach that conclusion. If you have not been told there has been a major change to the continuity, it is not logical to conclude that there is one.

Patently bullshit, you say. Everything we've been over has NOT shown evidence of my bullshit opinion you say. I concede, your logic is undeniable.

Except its not. Not to bring the LTD anywhere near this, but as an analogy: We weren't out and out told Tifa and Cloud became a couple for years after FFVII ended, so by your logic it was not logical for anyone to conclude that they did. But they did. Just because SE didn't spell it out for us and say "oh yeah and Cloud's J-cells are gone now" doesn't mean they're still there. You can't use a lack of evidence to prove anything, the absence of proof is not proof of absence. Deal.

Really, if this WAS true, it would be such a massive plot point that you would expect it to be outright stated SOMEWHERE.

Yeah, cause SE has ALWAYS on top of telling us everything there is to know about anything. They never leave anything ambiguous for years on end, ever. Pfft.

inb4 Dissidia.

Ummm, huh? Forgive my ignorance in this matter, but what is inb4? I'm interpreting it as "They'd have said so before Dissidia" just going by the b4 portion of that, but Dissidia occurs before AC/C so surely not, right? I mean, there really aren't that many AC references in Dissidia, are there?

I agree that some events can have multiple interpretations. I do not agree that this is one of those events.

That's why we're having this discussion isn't it? If you agreed this thread wouldn't even exist.

Yeah. So, even IF nothing but the infusion actually exposed him to Jenova cells, there is STILL no reason to believe that the Geostigma infection can't start out localized.

Ok, I see your point I think. You're saying that just because Cloud's stigma is identical in all respects to a normal case doesn't mean it couldn't have spread to become worse at some point, correct? Sadly unless SE does say "Cloud's stigma would've developed differently" we'll never know, what with it being cured and all. Thus, we have to work with what we do know, and what we know is that Cloud's symptoms of Geostigma never presented any appreciable difference to anyone else's.

Do. And the theory is that, since Geostigma is linked to depression & regret, well...yeah.

Ok, I see what you did there. I do recall people in OtwtaS referring to a feeling/belief that you're going to/should die being linked to those who contracted Geostigma. I personally interpreted that as their feelings of such attracting the tainted Lifestream which infected them. I don't recall any mention of your emotional state having any effect on where you oozed black shit out of, but I can't say for sure that it doesn't. Even if it does, it does nothing to differentiate Cloud's stigma from anyone else's except the location of his sores.

It's just a guess. It has no bearing on the argument.

Then why did you bring it up?

Half-joking. I was also snarking at the fact that the statement could be used to dismiss the plot element any time it came up. Zack, Sephiroth, Angeal, etc? They didn't need Jenova cells, they just had above-average spirit energy!

We could, except that we know Cloud's above-average spirit energy was unreliable. He couldn't access it all the time, the way the folks you named could access their super-powers. Not sure why you were snarking about that anyway, when did that possibility become relevant to the topic at hand? (and yes, Pot calling the Kettle black after my insertion of the Remnant's death into the topic earlier on).

More seriously, though, I have been thinking about that. I couldn't really offer you an answer, save that CoS does treat Geostigma & SOLDIER conditioning as being different.

I'm sure they are different. The infection didn't occur in the same way for most subjects, and most of them didn't receive an intentional Mako treatment along with J-cells. Some were exposed to the Lifestream during Meteorfall, but even then the dosage of J-cells and Mako is not regulated as it would be in an intentional infusion. There are a number of factors that would determine the effects, explaining why the first cases of Geostigma were rapidly fatal, while others linger for long periods (by comparison) as well as differences in how much puss is excreted, the amount of pain the afflicted feel, etc. But as I believe you yourself noted, while it was specified as different in CoS, it was also remarked that it was similar. The differences may not be all that important, considering.

Plasmids were just the closest analogy I could come up with. I'm pretty sure I elaborated that it wasn't the same thing even in that post. As well, plasmids...do bond to the genetic level. Presumably, whatever genes make Cloud SOLDIER-level badass would be the same ones Sephiroth can use to fuck with his head.

Forgive my ignorance on the subject of plasmids. Perhaps I read into that wrong, and if indeed you elaborated that it was not the same then my apologies and thanks for your repeating. Also, I wonder why you believe it is Cloud's genetic structure that allows Sephy to mess with his head? I had always thought that it was more that he had a direct connection to Cloud because he had free-floating cells within him that he could exert his will through. In that regard, if I was correct, Sephy's mind control is unrelated to Cloud's physical ability with the exception that they have the same source.

Maybe Sephiroth can't introduce new shit like Geostigma due to a shortage of raw material to work with (if there were still active cells that were yanked out), but that seems to be unnecessarily bending the concept to suit an interpretation.

[
I may be misunderstanding you here, are you referring to Sephiroth being unable to introduce new shit like Geostigma after AC/C? If so, what raw material is missing from the equation, since you feel comfortable with your assertion that the J-cells are still an intristic part of everyone they had infected to begin with? What is bending the concept to suit an interpretation?

Angeal does have Jenova cells. Also, if what you just said IS what they're going off of, it's critical research failure. I mean, where do they think a fetus GETS most of its cells? It doesn't have bone marrow to make blood, it doesn't have antibodies, & so on.

From the FFWiki, which I know is often not the most reliable source but I am quoting nonetheless, we have this:Hollander's plan was to inject Gillian with Jenova cells. However, Gillian herself was not to be the ultimate result of Project G. Rather, those who would later be injected with Gillian's cells would hold the Jenova traits. Genesis Rhapsodos was one of the more successful creations of this experiment. His best friend, Angeal Hewley, Gillian's son, was exposed to Gillian's cells while in his mother's womb.

Make note that neither Angeal nor Genesis are stated to have Jenova's cells, only Gillian's cells. Gillian's cells have been mutated by the Jenova cells in her system, and can pass these mutations on to her offspring. However, the actual J-cells that were the source of these mutations are never stated nor implied to have been passed on. Otherwise, Genesis' cells could not have been used to enhance the Tsviets without Weiss being contaminated for Hojo's plans with Omega. As for the critical research failure, it apparently worked didn't it? It's a video game, not everything is going to be accurate to real life (for instance, real people have an immune system dependant on white blood cells and such, rather than a miniature Lifestream that fights invaders).

Again, I am fully aware that FFWiki is not the most trusted source of info, but its what I've got. If you have a more reliable source of info to counter this, do let us see it.

Here's the thing: All evidence indicates that Hollander is full of shit. He tells Genesis that the Jenova cells will cure him. When it doesn't work, he comes up with this "S Cell" bullshit. When THAT doesn't work, OBVIOUSLY Zack was an "impure" sample. He's just getting desparate & making shit up.

Y'know, I could almost get behind that one. I know if I was basically a regular guy, knowing the superhuman product of my immoral research was likely only keeping me around as long as I was useful to him, I'd lie out the ass to stay "useful" and therefore keep breathing. However, there is a potential flaw there in that Hollander himself ends up suffering degradation as well, and needs S-cells to save his own life as well as Genesis'. One could say that he is still pulling bullshit out of his ass from panic about his own life, but it seems likely in light of that that he actually believes it.

It's actually pretty funny.

If it were true, it would be. But... I already explained why I doubt it is.

Well, it's not. As I said: Entitled to opinion, but that does not mean the opinion is in any way supported by the continuity.

Well, it is. See, I can say unsupported bullshit too. You say that my opinion is not in any way supported by the continuity. But tell me, how is your view of the question at hand any more supported than mine? Several of your points are unfounded opinions, like Hollander making shit up for instance. All sources I've viewed regard it as true. Other times, as Tres pointed out, you've used your theory in support of your theory. Points on both sides are working from entirely theoretical angle, being as we've never had it directly explained how J-cells work. What about the continuity makes your opinion so much more believable and substantiated than mine?

The problem may have been in the way I worded the argument, but to be fair, when I'm arguing in specific cases of Jenova cell infusion, & the topic moves to something that IS NOT a Jenova cell infusion, it does not apply to my earlier argument, for obvious reasons.

What are the obvious reasons this time? Wow you like that word, obvious. C'mon, spell it out for us obtuse fools who can't see the light and the truth of your comments.

But seriously, how do the results of Project G, a branch of the Jenova Project, not relate in any way to discussions of Jenova Cells? The cells were utilized in a different manner with the same goal. The results were people with Jenova-based powers who did not have Jenova cells within their bodies, unlike standard SOLDIERS or Jenova Reunion specimens did, and without being true Jenova hybrids like Sephiroth. This shows us that Jenova cells mutate the host they are injected into in such a way that the mutations are passed down (whether directly, as in Angeal, or through artificial gene manipulation as in Genesis). This supports the idea that Cloud's Jenova cells could theoretically be removed/destroyed/not present in his body for any reason and still maintain the same levels of superhuman strength, speed, etc that they benefited him with because they have mutated him already.

Seems to me you just wanted to dismiss that as entirely separate because its being used to support the opposite option from the one you're supporting. Because I know it was relevant to my points, even if you did consider it a separate matter. But hey, that's just my opinion of your debate tactics, and my opinions seem to be bullshit if you can be believed, so I'm sure you'll just brush that off too.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Because in both cases, the argument is that Cloud should feel the full affect of Sephiroth's will if the latter is exerting it over the former. It just doesn't work.

No, that's not the argument at all. In one instance Seph is exerting his will over Cloud. In the other, he's exerting his will over cells that are as much a part of him as his hand.

Because you said "vapor" when we first got into this "visual effect" debate & have not made any indication that you were referring to a different visual cue until now. Regardless, the situation is the same.

I said that the material on the geostigma sufferers got vaporized, though I think it was obvious that I was using that word simply because there was no more obvious word to use for the occurence given that vapor does rise from where the stuff had been. I've used "destroyed" and "vaporized" interchangably, so reducing my argument to something as erroneous as "Where there's vapor, there's JENOVA cells" is baffling to me.

Ah, yes, "what is in the plot." Like "Cloud has always had the strength of a SOLDIER because he's naturally superhuman."

Given that he has done superhuman things since he was a small child, it's safe to say "he's naturally superhuman."

It's been jammed into our heads over and over that he's at least capable of tapping into his capacity for Limit Break more easily than other people. We have the following to support that:

-Surviving a fall into a canyon as a child without suffering more than scraped knees -- during a moment of heightened emotion where he was trying to save Tifa, who, for her part, was left in a coma for a week from the same incident that barely hurt Cloud at all
-Easily lifting and effectively using a large sword in a feat that left a trained covert ops agent in awe
-His entire performance in Nibelheim's mako reactor (using Zack's sword; leaping a couple dozen feet into the air; fighting on after his aorta and possibly his spine were skewered, still able even to lift a man larger than him by using a long, thin piece of metal that connected them, even while that piece of metal was still stuck through his own body; throwing said man upwards through at least a dozen feet of open space into a metal wall that shattered from the impact). His superhuman performance is carried into every version of this sequence, and becomes more and more ridiculous with each presentation
-Kept fighting after getting seriously jacked up by Sephiroth in ACC, his aorta once again punctured and his limbs all full of holes. He even continues to try fighting after getting shot through the heart. Yes, this is after he's been enhanced by Hojo, but I highly doubt anyone else would be able to keep going after all of this -- not even actual SOLDIERs. Compare to the wounds that killed Zack, who was probably second only to Sephiroth in SOLDIER

How can you deny it when we've seen it over and over again -- on no less than 7 occasions?

You can repeat this as much as you want. It will still be as much of a misrepresentation the thousandth time as it was the first time. I've explained how the arguments are structurally similar several times now. If you refuse to acknowledge that, I don't care. I'm done playing this idiotic "is/is not" game.

"Misrepresentation" my ass. You're comparing something like the FMV where Sector 7 fell to the flashing death sequence of enemies during battles. One obviously really happens. The other is a mechanic of gameplay, comparable only to shit like an MP pumping Barret's face full of machine gun fire without Barret being bothered by it.

The only misrepresentation at work here is that you insist on singling out the fizzling and vaporization in AC/C -- alone of all the magical occurences in the film -- as not being real, equating it to a gameplay mechanic in another title.

See, here's the thing: I do not now, nor have I ever, considered "Cloud does not have Jenova cells anymore" to be in any way a viable interpretation. The evidence for it is at best circumstancial & at worst a complete asspull.

Yes, Neo, in order to support an argument, it helps if one offers circumstances where evidence for it occurred. That's why circumstancial evidence is actually used in trials and the like, and considered a valid form of arguing a case. Together, a set of circumstancial evidence becomes corroborating evidence.

Do you think scientific study is based solely on Word of God statements? Criminal trials?

If two people enter a bathroom and only one emerges alive, with the deceased riddled with bullet holes and no one else is found inside the bathroom, nor has anyone else left since the sole survivor vacated -- that is circumstancial evidence. Yet it's still pretty damn good evidence.

Throwing around the term "circumstancial evidence" every other post is simply agreeing that there's evidence for what myself and others have been arguing.

There is simply not enough information to support this MAJOR change in the storyline.

Adding a new mechanic to the fictional universe doesn't change established storylines any more than a significant new development like Aerith/the Lifestream being able to cure geostigma -- in whatever fashion it is done, whether it be interfering with Sephiroth's will or destroying JENOVA cells. Hell, it was only in FFVII -- two years earlier within the fictional universe -- that neither Aerith nor the planet could do jack shit about Sephiroth's will interfering with Holy.

Things change. New developments can be added.

It's insane that you keep arguing that nothing can ever change when -- within the same film, and involving the same Deus ex Machina plot device -- we see a huge new development already. It seriously looks like you're arguing just for its own sake. You won't even acknowledge that Aerith's rain does something new.

Assuming that he never got secondary exposure to Jenova cells, there is still no reason that a Geostigma infection should not start in one area & move to others.

"Infection"? Geostigma is the symptoms of an infection, not the infection itself. Why do I have to keep saying this?

And according to you the infection is within Cloud's very cells. There's plenty of reason in that scenario why just one part of his body shouldn't be seeing excreted pus.

Again, when Genesis's entire DNA structure was working against him, his entire body was degrading.

Random Guessing Time!

My guess as to why it forms on his right arm first is that it's his weapon hand. He'd been using the Buster Sword for a while & the First Tsurugi, in its completed state, is modelled after the Buster Sword. As one can see, his right arm would be linked to the Buster Sword in his thoughts &, therefore, to his memories of Zack.

The stigma is on Cloud's left arm.

I don't know. Presumably because it's a different aspect of the cells' abilities.

So doing the exact same thing that you're arguing the cells do for Cloud -- enhance him physically -- is "a different aspect of the cells' abilities" just because you don't want to acknowledge the similarities between Cloud and other geostigma sufferers? Now who's arguing changes to the story?

Okay. Remind me again how this post is contradicting what I'm saying now?

You spoke of plasmids and the exchange of genetic information that doesn't require the actual fusion of cells. Yet you insist that this couldn't possibly be the case with Cloud, despite arguing that it's what happened with Genesis with the exact same genetic material.

Maybe it is. But I have my doubts, mostly because it...works. It explains very well how people with Genesis's cells have abilities comparable to SOLDIER but are not considered to have "Jenova cells."

It does explain it, yes. It also explains how Cloud could lose JENOVA's cells without losing any of the abilities he'd gained from having them.

Seriously, you cannot have both of those. Either it works to explain shit with Genesis and Cloud or it works for neither. It is the same mechanic and involves the same plot device.

Jesus fucking Christ.

No, but that's how it seemed to be presented.

No, it seriously fucking wasn't. Show me how it was when I only addressed the point you were wrong about in that fucking response.

Holy fucking God, you have gone batshit.

If you were to mention something from an entirely different franchise during the course of this discussion and you were wrong about what you said (e.g. "Boromir killed Lurtz in 'The Fellowship of the Ring' film" when it was actually Strider), correcting you on that is just correcting you on that. Holy fuck, you're paranoid.

You're arguing that the cells were obviously removed because Geostigma is not being re-activated in Cloud.

As one piece of circumstancial evidence that is part of a collaborative set of pieces. Using the word "because" in your sentence is a misrepresentation of my argument.

It would only stop being a distortion if you added "and because there are people still carrying around JENOVA's cells in DC without suffering from geostigma; and because Deepground goes out of their way to cull captives in Kalm but not in Edge, where Aerith's rain fell; and because Sephiroth himself declared Cloud's geostigma gone."

All you've ever offered as an alternative explanation is that Sephiroth's will was for some reason -- that in no way affected the cells themselves -- no longer able to exert his will in them. And throughout this entire discussion, your irony detector has remained broken and not detected the absurdity of claiming that one new development could never, ever occur on the basis that another new development took care of it instead -- even while simultaneously claiming that that event could have never occurred either because it had never happened before!

Your argument is such a web of contradictions that I don't even know how to talk to you.

Within the same thread, you will spiel over and over that there's no way Aerith's rain could do shit to the JENOVA cells because she and the planet were never able to do anything to them before. But the moment the topic switches to whether Cloud still has JENOVA cells, you start flailing about like a fish on land while yelling that Cloud couldn't lose JENOVA cells because it had never been done before, and that it's more likely he was cured by Aerith's rain doing something to the JENOVA cells that she and the planet were never able to do before.

Likewise, there's the contradictions about Genesis and Cloud's genes. You'll say that Genesis obviously had an exchange of genetic information without the actual cells becoming bonded to his own as a means of explaining why Weiss is still a suitable host for Omega, but you'll proclaim that it's just as obvious that the same process couldn't have occurred with Cloud because he would be much weaker without JENOVA's cells -- even though the argument you're supposed to be trying to support is that Cloud couldn't lose JENOVA cells without becoming weaker!

So there we have a contradiction combined with circular reasoning.

And then you have the argument that the genetic exchange/bonding/whatever in the children afflicted with geostigma couldn't possibly be the same as it is with Cloud even though you're saying it produced exactly the same enhancements in both.

I mean WHAT THE FUCK.

That's not a contradiction, it's a special case. It's not even a Jenova cell infusion, so the usual rules don't apply.

Ah, lovely. So everything is going to be a "special case." Cloud being healed of geostigma couldn't possibly be the same as it is with everyone else. The exchange of genetic information in two people involving the same genetic material couldn't possibly be the same. Identical enhancements produced in people who have acquired the same cellular invaders couldn't possibly be related.

I'm sure you're going to claim that the children didn't get "infused" like SOLDIERs so it's a special case there as well -- nevermind that in one case a solution was likely used as a means of providing a substance to easily insert, while in the other case, the cells had fallen into the fucking Lifestream and were then carried to people's bodies. Not like there's the planet's natural moisture or that within people's bodies to make a solution out of the cells as they came in contact, no sir! And we'll also just ignore the physical enhancements the children acquired like those known to have been injected.

I also really love how "the usual rules don't apply" just because and even though we're talking about the same thing (i.e. the exchange of genetic information)!

Perhaps I unintentionally obscured the point.

No shit.

In that case, take the other analogy, the one of the glyph. It's not as easy to extrapolate things from, but it DID occur in the movie & we DO know it signifies a summoning. So, what are we going to try & conclude from there? What the glyph is made of? What it says?

Why the fuck would we care? We're not going to conclude that it didn't really appear, though, because there it fucking is.

That's all we need to know: It appeared. It happened. What it means -- beyond a summon arising -- and what it's made of, I don't give a shit about. What it says, while that would be interesting to know, is not important.

But it's there. It happened, just like all the glyphs that are obviously really there during FFXIII's story.

Speaking of that summon, does it make sense to argue that the color of summon materia has been ret conned because the materia glows blue?

Given that it involves another gameplay mechanic, no, it doesn't. But no one here is arguing that anyway.

So after I flatly explain what my point is & Tres says, "No, the point is THIS," you don't see it as being a misrepresentation?

Is redirection of the analogy. I made the analogy. I think I know what the point was.

You made an analogy that distorted what I was fucking saying. I offered you an an analogy that would be an accurate comparison of what I was trying to say.

Since I made the original fucking point, I think I know what the goddamn point was.

Well, you are entitled to your own opinion, of course, but that is patently bullshit. Not only because "everything we've been over" has NOT shown that, but also because of the logic used to reach that conclusion. If you have not been told there has been a major change to the continuity, it is not logical to conclude that there is one.

You heard it here first, people! Word of God statement -- a.k.a. "whatever Neo says" -- is that Aerith's rain does nothing! It doesn't affect JENOVA's cells at all, it doesn't mess with Sephiroth's will, it doesn't do shit.

And all because there was no press release or chapter in an Ultimania descrbing how it ends geostigma -- so it's better to just conclude that it doesn't and the entire fucking thing was a mass hallucination that we're all suffering. None of us have ever seen the real ending of AC/C.

Really, if this WAS true, it would be such a massive plot point that you would expect it to be outright stated SOMEWHERE.

You mean along with the thorough explanation for how Aerith's rain cures geostigma?

O wait.

Nevermind that it took nine fucking years for an Ultimania to outright state who Squall's parents are, and eleven for one to say that Cloud and Tifa became a couple at the end of the original game.

inb4 Dissidia.

Didn't you agree that much of Dissidia's finer plot points were left untouched by its Ultimania? So I don't give a shit if you're "inb4 Dissidia" or not, you're contradicting yourself again.

Here's the thing: All evidence indicates that Hollander is full of shit. He tells Genesis that the Jenova cells will cure him. When it doesn't work ...

When does it not work? He never took JENOVA's raw cells, and he never got Sephiroth's. The best he got was some from Zack, years after they had stopped being pure thanks to being in Zack's body.

Also: What EG said about Hollander needing the S-Cells to save his own life. He clearly didn't think he was full of shit.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Nice post Tres, seriously. Maybe its because I'm still new, but I felt an odd need to be a little more subtle in my own response when I called bullshit. But call it I did, and so did you, and that makes me feel even more that I was right to do so.

I said that the material on the geostigma sufferers got vaporized, though I think it was obvious that I was using that word simply because there was no more obvious word to use for the occurence given that vapor does rise from where the stuff had been. I've used "destroyed" and "vaporized" interchangably, so reducing my argument to something as erroneous as "Where there's vapor, there's JENOVA cells" is baffling to me.

I'd gotten so wrapped up in the odd and somewhat off topic discussion of visual effects that I'd almost forgotten what the "vapor" thing was all about. Thanks for getting us back to relevance on that. And yes, destroyed/vaporized/destructified, whichever, it was originally about physical matter, that being the sores and puss that are the most obvious symptoms of the stigma, going from "there" to "not there." And, extending from that, the clear evidence that the rain can destroy/disappear/whatever physical material.

Given that he has done superhuman things since he was a small child, it's safe to say "he's naturally superhuman."

It's been jammed into our heads over and over that he's at least capable of tapping into his capacity for Limit Break more easily than other people. We have the following to support that:

-Surviving a fall into a canyon as a child without suffering more than scraped knees -- during a moment of heightened emotion where he was trying to save Tifa, who, for her part, was left in a coma for a week from the same incident that barely hurt Cloud at all
-Easily lifting and effectively using a large sword in a feat that left a trained covert ops agent in awe
-His entire performance in Nibelheim's mako reactor (using Zack's sword; leaping a couple dozen feet into the air; fighting on after his aorta and possibly his spine were skewered, still able even to lift a man larger than him by using a long, thin piece of metal that connected them, even while that piece of metal was still stuck through his own body; throwing said man upwards through at least a dozen feet of open space into a metal wall that shattered from the impact). His superhuman performance is carried into every version of this sequence, and becomes more and more ridiculous with each presentation
-Kept fighting after getting seriously jacked up by Sephiroth in ACC, his aorta once again punctured and his limbs all full of holes. He even continues to try fighting after getting shot through the heart. Yes, this is after he's been enhanced by Hojo, but I highly doubt anyone else would be able to keep going after all of this -- not even actual SOLDIERs. Compare to the wounds that killed Zack, who was probably second only to Sephiroth in SOLDIER

How can you deny it when we've seen it over and over again -- on no less than 7 occasions?

I reiterate my point here: What we now see from Cloud as his explosive Limit Breaks are what allowed him to throw out the well-listed feats Tres showed here from prior to his enhancement. They were rare events, compare them to a woman lifting an entire car off of her child during a moment of emotional duress and need. The enhancements of the Jenova Reunion experiment gave him super-powers which are present all the time, but he still has those moments where he is even stronger and faster, they're just even more so now because of his higher base stats, so to speak. In short, Cloud did always have the potential for superhuman feats, now he is always superhuman and has potential for even more superhuman feats. In no way are we saying that the infusion of Jenova Cells and Mako he received did nothing.

"Misrepresentation" my ass. You're comparing something like the FMV where Sector 7 fell to the flashing death sequence of enemies during battles. One obviously really happens. The other is a mechanic of gameplay, comparable only to shit like an MP pumping Barret's face full of machine gun fire without Barret being bothered by it.

The only misrepresentation at work here is that you insist on singling out the fizzling and vaporization in AC/C -- alone of all the magical occurences in the film -- as not being real, equating it to a gameplay mechanic in another title.

This.

Yes, Neo, in order to support an argument, it helps if one offers circumstances where evidence for it occurred. That's why circumstancial evidence is actually used in trials and the like, and considered a valid form of arguing a case. Together, a set of circumstancial evidence becomes corroborating evidence.

Do you think scientific study is based solely on Word of God statements? Criminal trials?

If two people enter a bathroom and only one emerges alive, with the deceased riddled with bullet holes and no one else is found inside the bathroom, nor has anyone else left since the sole survivor vacated -- that is circumstancial evidence. Yet it's still pretty damn good evidence.

Throwing around the term "circumstancial evidence" every other post is simply agreeing that there's evidence for what myself and others have been arguing.

And this, a much more eloquent version of what I was trying to say. And I must say again, at least we have "circumstancial" evidence, I haven't seen any real evidence provided on the other side of the debate, just assertions.

"Infection"? Geostigma is the symptoms of an infection, not the infection itself. Why do I have to keep saying this?

This I need to clarify for my own edification, is Geostigma the name of the condition that occurs due to a combination of Jenova Cells within the body and Sephiroth's will acting upon them? Or is it the name of the obvious surface symptoms, open sores excreting black puss? It's not overly relevant to the discussion, but I like to use terms correctly to prevent future confusion. Either way, the infection is Jenova Cells, activated by Sephy from beyond the grave, so the statement could be inferred as correct no matter which is the case.

And according to you the infection is within Cloud's very cells. There's plenty of reason in that scenario why just one part of his body shouldn't be seeing excreted pus.

Again, when Genesis's entire DNA structure was working against him, his entire body was degrading.

This is why it confused me when you said the discussions concerning Project G wasn't relevant to the primary topic, Neo. Cause it very clearly is relevant when either Tres or I brings it up.

So doing the exact same thing that you're arguing the cells do for Cloud -- enhance him physically -- is "a different aspect of the cells' abilities" just because you don't want to acknowledge the similarities between Cloud and other geostigma sufferers? Now who's arguing changes to the story?

This.

You spoke of plasmids and the exchange of genetic information that doesn't require the actual fusion of cells. Yet you insist that this couldn't possibly be the case with Cloud, despite arguing that it's what happened with Genesis with the exact same genetic material.

To be fair Tres, he later contended that plasmids do in fact fuse with host cells. But that sort of invalidates the comparison with regards to Genesis, if that is indeed the case.

It does explain it, yes. It also explains how Cloud could lose JENOVA's cells without losing any of the abilities he'd gained from having them.

Seriously, you cannot have both of those. Either it works to explain shit with Genesis and Cloud or it works for neither. It is the same mechanic and involves the same plot device.

Exactly. Pick one, dude, or gtfo.

Holy fucking God, you have gone batshit.

I haven't really discussed anything with you prior to this thread Neo, but I'm inclined to agree. But, go ahead and tell us how we are reading your posts wrong/misrepresenting you.

As one piece of circumstancial evidence that is part of a collaborative set of pieces. Using the word "because" in your sentence is a misrepresentation of my argument.

Take notes, that's a good description of a misrepresentation, as opposed to your claim of the same earlier Neo.

All you've ever offered as an alternative explanation is that Sephiroth's will was for some reason -- that in no way affected the cells themselves -- no longer able to exert his will in them. And throughout this entire discussion, your irony detector has remained broken and not detected the absurdity of claiming that one new development could never, ever occur on the basis that another new development took care of it instead -- even while simultaneously claiming that that event could have never occurred either because it had never happened before!

I got dizzy reading that section. That's how circular the logic being described is, I literally got dizzy from my thoughts being rotated by it. I would say, on the subject, that I find it far more likely that Aerith's rain would be potent enough to purge a system of foreign cells (Jenova cells are alive, and thus can be killed) than for her to somehow cut off Sephiroth's will. Sephiroth's will has been shown to overcome the will of the Planet in regards to holding back Holy. When they met in the Lifestream, Aerith was forced to flee from him despite having the Cetra's natural affinity for remaining individuals, and their natural power over the Lifestream. I would say that the only thing that cut off Sephiroth's will in AC/C was Cloud's swords slicing him to death, which is why Aerith didn't bring down the rain until after he died. He was probably preventing her from doing that also.

And then you have the argument that the genetic exchange/bonding/whatever in the children afflicted with geostigma couldn't possibly be the same as it is with Cloud even though you're saying it produced exactly the same enhancements in both.

I mean WHAT THE FUCK.

I'm right there with ya Tres.

Ah, lovely. So everything is going to be a "special case."

I considered commenting on the special case thing myself, as in "Special cases are for situations where the evidence is against you" or the even more rude "You're a special case!" but I woulda felt like a troll. Now I feel it's a wasted opportunity, alas.

I'm sure you're going to claim that the children didn't get "infused" like SOLDIERs so it's a special case there as well -- nevermind that in one case a solution was likely used as a means of providing a substance to easily insert, while in the other case, the cells had fallen into the fucking Lifestream and were then carried to people's bodies. Not like there's the planet's natural moisture or that within people's bodies to make a solution out of the cells as they came in contact, no sir! And we'll also just ignore the physical enhancements the children acquired like those known to have been injected.

I also really love how "the usual rules don't apply" just because and even though we're talking about the same thing (i.e. the exchange of genetic information)!

If you do want to make that claim Neo, see the last post I made prior to this one. It has what is, imo, a lovely bit of exposition on how the manner of infection was different and thus the results may vary slightly (in terms of severity mostly) but still be highly similar in all other regards. Still think its nice how you keep reminding us Killmister says they're different, but neglect to mention the similar part.

No shit.

I disagree, there's been plenty of shit. Smells of bull, it does.

Why the fuck would we care? We're not going to conclude that it didn't really appear, though, because there it fucking is.

That's all we need to know: It appeared. It happened. What it means -- beyond a summon arising -- and what it's made of, I don't give a shit about. What it says, while that would be interesting to know, is not important.

But it's there. It happened, just like all the glyphs that are obviously really there during FFXIII's story.

I already agreed that this had nothing to do with anything. If you wanna talk about it and swap theories though, start a new thread/drop me a message. My theory is that the glyph says "Bahamut" in case you were wondering

You heard it here first, people! Word of God statement -- a.k.a. "whatever Neo says" -- is that Aerith's rain does nothing! It doesn't affect JENOVA's cells at all, it doesn't mess with Sephiroth's will, it doesn't do shit.

And all because there was no press release or chapter in an Ultimania descrbing how it ends geostigma -- so it's better to just conclude that it doesn't and the entire fucking thing was a mass hallucination that we're all suffering. None of us have ever seen the real ending of AC/C.

Burn!

Nevermind that it took nine fucking years for an Ultimania to outright state who Squall's parents are, and eleven for one to say that Cloud and Tifa became a couple at the end of the original game.

Sweet, my analogy plus another that's not so LTDish. I was worried about the CxT reference as proof that SE takes its sweet ass time clarifying things, and yet we can reasonably infer them from reasonable evidence despite this. But it does work.

When does it not work? He never took JENOVA's raw cells, and he never got Sephiroth's. The best he got was some from Zack, years after they had stopped being pure thanks to being in Zack's body.

Also: What EG said about Hollander needing the S-Cells to save his own life. He clearly didn't think he was full of shit.

Sad to think I caught that when I haven't even played CC, I just studied up and watched it all on Youtube. But, again I say, EXACTLY!

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Nice post Tres, seriously. Maybe its because I'm still new, but I felt an odd need to be a little more subtle in my own response when I called bullshit. But call it I did, and so did you, and that makes me feel even more that I was right to do so.

Thanks. You did good as well, though don't be afraid to call a spade a spade.

And, extending from that, the clear evidence that the rain can destroy/disappear/whatever physical material.

Essentially, yeah, it boils down to that: One can't say it does nothing physical when it very clearly does something to a physical substance -- especially one that just happens to be the pus excreted to remove JENOVA's material.

I reiterate my point here: What we now see from Cloud as his explosive Limit Breaks are what allowed him to throw out the well-listed feats Tres showed here from prior to his enhancement. They were rare events, compare them to a woman lifting an entire car off of her child during a moment of emotional duress and need. The enhancements of the Jenova Reunion experiment gave him super-powers which are present all the time, but he still has those moments where he is even stronger and faster, they're just even more so now because of his higher base stats, so to speak. In short, Cloud did always have the potential for superhuman feats, now he is always superhuman and has potential for even more superhuman feats. In no way are we saying that the infusion of Jenova Cells and Mako he received did nothing.

Exactly.

Cloud was always superhuman in a pinch, but now he's superhuman all the time and still retains his ability to tap into a greater reservoir. With his "base stats" so enhanced, his moments of desperation are going to be even greater -- super superhuman, if you will.

And I must say again, at least we have "circumstancial" evidence, I haven't seen any real evidence provided on the other side of the debate, just assertions.

Agreed. We keep asking for evidence in support of your conclusion, NB, and all we get is the conclusion handed back to us (that our explanation couldn't possibly have happened) -- or an assertion that there's tons of other explanations, but we've never seen more than one.

And the one that was offered (rain interferes with Seph's will in those cells, but doesn't damage the cells) doesn't even make sense with what we know (that Seph's will was being exerted with a vengeance minutes later, and that Aerith was unable to spread the rain on a wide scale until Seph was defeated). Especially given that this new development in the mechanics of the fictional world is just being used to argue that another new development couldn't have actually happened because it would be new.

This I need to clarify for my own edification, is Geostigma the name of the condition that occurs due to a combination of Jenova Cells within the body and Sephiroth's will acting upon them? Or is it the name of the obvious surface symptoms, open sores excreting black puss?

Technically, it's the symptoms. That's how Vincent describes it in the Sleeping Forest and how the 10th Anniversary Ultimania describes it.

To be fair Tres, he later contended that plasmids do in fact fuse with host cells. But that sort of invalidates the comparison with regards to Genesis, if that is indeed the case.

Indeed it would.

In any event, what NB actually did was repeat what he'd said the first time while making it sound like he was saying something new. Look at what he actually said: "As well, plasmids...do bond to the genetic level."

Yes, plasmids bond with host cells, but plasmids are genetic information. They're not actual cells and don't require the original cell to merge with the new one.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Thanks. You did good as well, though don't be afraid to call a spade a spade.

I do my best

Exactly.

Cloud was always superhuman in a pinch, but now he's superhuman all the time and still retains his ability to tap into a greater reservoir. With his "base stats" so enhanced, his moments of desperation are going to be even greater -- super superhuman, if you will.

I feel moved to go off Sonic the Hedgehog terms, where Hyper follows Super. Either way, perhaps our joint efforts on describing this will get the point hammered home.

Agreed. We keep asking for evidence in support of your conclusion, NB, and all we get is the conclusion handed back to us (that our explanation couldn't possibly have happened) -- or an assertion that there's tons of other explanations, but we've never seen more than one.

And the one that was offered (rain interferes with Seph's will in those cells, but doesn't damage the cells) doesn't even make sense with what we know (that Seph's will was being exerted with a vengeance minutes later, and that Aerith was unable to spread the rain on a wide scale until Seph was defeated). Especially given that this new development in the mechanics of the fictional world is just being used to argue that another new development couldn't have actually happened because it would be new.

I await the response to this portion of the post with great anticipation. One way or another, I think I'll enjoy it.

Technically, it's the symptoms. That's how Vincent describes it in the Sleeping Forest and how the 10th Anniversary Ultimania describes it.

Thanks for the clarification on that. Wee bit confusing of them to give the symptoms a name rather than the condition itself, until you really stop and consider that the infection already had a name.

In any event, what NB actually did was repeat what he'd said the first time while making it sound like he was saying something new. Look at what he actually said: "As well, plasmids...do bond to the genetic level."

That's an odd debate tactic. Is that like conceding a point but trying to pretend you were saying the same thing all along?

Yes, plasmids bond with host cells, but plasmids are genetic information. They're not actual cells and don't require the original cell to merge with the new one.

If plasmids keep coming up, I can see I am going to need to do some research on the matter to keep up. Just going off of what you've said here Tres, plasmids are basically just fragments of genetic information that bond with host cells, thereby replacing existing genetic info in said host cell, correct? If so then yeah, that's quite different from living, foreign cells from a different life-form. I'd really liken Jenova cells more to a retrovirus than a plasmid if that's the case, though that too is far from accurate in a number of ways.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I feel moved to go off Sonic the Hedgehog terms, where Hyper follows Super.

Or we could call it "Super Saiyan 2."

Thanks for the clarification on that. Wee bit confusing of them to give the symptoms a name rather than the condition itself, until you really stop and consider that the infection already had a name.

I imagine that in the fictional world itself, people refer to the infection as geostigma. Of course, not everyone's in the know like Vincent and the Ultimania.

That's an odd debate tactic. Is that like conceding a point but trying to pretend you were saying the same thing all along?

Similar, but worse. It's restating the same point and getting the opponent to accept the dressed-up version.

Just going off of what you've said here Tres, plasmids are basically just fragments of genetic information that bond with host cells, thereby replacing existing genetic info in said host cell, correct?

They don't necessarily replace anything that's already there, but, yeah, they become added to the information already in the cell. In other words, it's like adding another file to a flash drive.

Mutation or transformation of the host cell is another way to look at it.

If so then yeah, that's quite different from living, foreign cells from a different life-form. I'd really liken Jenova cells more to a retrovirus than a plasmid if that's the case, though that too is far from accurate in a number of ways.

That's a good way of looking at it as well.

Also calls to mind that "Should viruses be considered alive?" debate. For the record, plasmids are pretty much universally considered not to be, as, alone, they're just genetic data.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Or we could call it "Super Saiyan 2."

The differences between the two are really negligible Except for Hyper Sonic being more colorful. But, considering his purple Gohan-ish outfit and hairstyle, I've always contended Cloud is so uber-badass because he was born already in the state of SS2. Let the world tremble in fear when he learns the SS3 transformation and cracks the Planet like an egg while bedding Tifa.

I imagine that in the fictional world itself, people refer to the infection as geostigma. Of course, not everyone's in the know like Vincent and the Ultimania.

Was there ever an explanation as to how Vincent got to know so much about the workings of Geostigma? I mean, my assumption was "Tseng told me everything he'd heard from Rufus and Killmister" (once I read CoS that was my assumption anyway) but did it ever say so in an Ultimania quote or anything? Cause if not, Neo will tell us it didn't happen, and Vince was obviously just making random shit up.

Similar, but worse. It's restating the same point and getting the opponent to accept the dressed-up version.

Ahhhh so its a tricksy tactic, making me think he was clarifying his point and inherently within that admitting he'd done wrong in order to lower my guard and have me accept a dressed up version of the same bloody statement. Shenanigans! Shenanigans!

They don't necessarily replace anything that's already there, but, yeah, they become added to the information already in the cell. In other words, it's like adding another file to a flash drive.

Mutation or transformation of the host cell is another way to look at it.

So it adds additional information to the host, rather than overwriting it. Makes sense.

That's a good way of looking at it as well.

Also calls to mind that "Should viruses be considered alive?" debate. For the record, plasmids are pretty much universally considered not to be, as, alone, they're just genetic data.

I actually gave myself a refresher course on the lovely retrovirus, and their means of inducing genetic alterations by way of causing the normal process of DNA to RNA to reverse, thus creating new DNA. The research I'd done had shown that something in the neighborhood of 7% of the current human genome is estimated to have been introduced by retrovirals. Still not a perfect analogy, but its still appropriate considering both the influence J-cells exert on the host and the Cetra once mistaking it for a virus.

As for the "alive" vs "not alive" debate, I am not sure how to weigh in. If I recall the only real point of debate is that they fail to meet one of the requirements to classify something as "life" that being made of one or more distinct cells and ergo do not have a metabolism of any kind. On the other hand, they do reproduce, react to external stimuli, adapt over time (sometimes very fucking rapidly), and once formed from a host cell they do maintain their (admittedly very basic) internal structure.

I suppose I'd call them life-like but nonliving, much like fire which also reproduces, "reacts" to external stimuli, reproduces by lighting nearby objects aflame, and even appears to feed on flammable materials. Its easy to see how people once made the mistake of attributing literal life to flames, and the same can be said in the modern world with regards to the humble virus.

Oh, that was super fucking off topic wasn't it. Ummm... countering Neo's earlier Word of God with Fruit of the Tree of Knowledge, eat one and immediately call bullshit on the title of this thread!

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Was there ever an explanation as to how Vincent got to know so much about the workings of Geostigma?

Not as far as I know, but I always attributed it to him being the antisocial, loner anti-hero character. "Knowing stuff" seems to come with filling that role.

The research I'd done had shown that something in the neighborhood of 7% of the current human genome is estimated to have been introduced by retrovirals. Still not a perfect analogy, but its still appropriate considering both the influence J-cells exert on the host and the Cetra once mistaking it for a virus.

Not perfect perhaps, but it is a good way of illustrating the concept.

As for the "alive" vs "not alive" debate, I am not sure how to weigh in. If I recall the only real point of debate is that they fail to meet one of the requirements to classify something as "life" that being made of one or more distinct cells and ergo do not have a metabolism of any kind. On the other hand, they do reproduce, react to external stimuli, adapt over time (sometimes very fucking rapidly), and once formed from a host cell they do maintain their (admittedly very basic) internal structure.

I suppose I'd call them life-like but nonliving, much like fire which also reproduces, "reacts" to external stimuli, reproduces by lighting nearby objects aflame, and even appears to feed on flammable materials. Its easy to see how people once made the mistake of attributing literal life to flames, and the same can be said in the modern world with regards to the humble virus.

Great observations. I feel more inclined to lean toward classifying them as alive, in part because of their use of organic life, which a flame obviously doesn't use.

At the least, a viral cell would be classified as alive. That's how I would categorize JENOVA: A bunch of viral cells bound together by the creature's instincts for destruction, infection, etc.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Not as far as I know, but I always attributed it to him being the antisocial, loner anti-hero character. "Knowing stuff" seems to come with filling that role.

Until DoC came along. Then he became fucking clueless much of the time.

Not perfect perhaps, but it is a good way of illustrating the concept.

I thought so. Still waiting for Neo Bahamut to come around and disagree

Great observations. I feel more inclined to lean toward classifying them as alive, in part because of their use of organic life, which a flame obviously doesn't use.

That all depends on how you define "use of organic life". Flesh and bone burn just fine, if you get 'em hot enough Thus one could argue that fire makes use of organic life (to be fair, usually wood) to feed and to reproduce. But I'm not actually gonna do that

At the least, a viral cell would be classified as alive. That's how I would categorize JENOVA: A bunch of viral cells bound together by the creature's instincts for destruction, infection, etc.

Good going with that, a viral cell is most definitely alive, and its inside of cells that the virus shows the most life-like qualities with regards to activity, response to stimuli, and reproduction. While I doubt Jenova literally is a collection of viral cells, its characteristics are so similar in intent and function that its really hard to draw concrete distinctions. I'd definitely agree, the Cetra had very good reason to label their infection with Jenova's cells as a virus (though by Ifalna's account and Hojo's transformations, it seems that J-Cells can serve a very T-Virus like purpose under the right circumstances)

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

That all depends on how you define "use of organic life". Flesh and bone burn just fine, if you get 'em hot enough Thus one could argue that fire makes use of organic life (to be fair, usually wood) to feed and to reproduce.

Touché.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Yes yes, my verbal epee is swift and accurate when I'm in decent form Whenever I forget that, I can look at my sig and see how you responded to my very first post

 

[Neo Bahamut]

Ugh, I needn't continue troubling myself to respond to all of this. This whole "you're saying the Rain didn't happen" thing is--I don't even know what to call it. Ordinarily, it would be a straw man, but for some reason, you actually seem to BELIEVE that's my argument. I repeat the simplest analogies over & over only for them to be flatly dismissed &/or radically misinterpretated. Every other facet of this discussion is no better.

I'm sure you view me as "stubborn," or whatever, but I liken this to arguments like "Vincent is Sephiroth's father." The ages fit, Hojo likes to dick with people, & you can even pick out similarities between Vincent & Sephiroth, possibly moreso than Hojo. But all of this circumstantial evidence does not prove the theory correct which, indeed, it is not. Regardless of how probable the fan in question believes it to be, it is not, & if you encountered one of these people, you would likely treat their ideas with much the same scorn.

I really don't know what to say to either of you, at this point. I don't know what to tell you that could clarify things any further. I don't know what you want me to do. This discussion has literally become too inane to even formulate a coherent response to.

My sentiments can now be summed up with a single word:

What.