Jessie, Biggs, and Wedge's Roles in the Remake Thread

fancy

pants
AKA
Fancy
What a shocking read this thread has been. The religious-like fanaticism centred around this idea of 'Jessie plausibly being an Important Lover™ of Cloud's™' has seriously taken me aback.

I fear this has become something of a black hole. Nothing can be said that won't be sucked into the endless vortex of this non-discussion that surfaces back to the focal point of... the lack of acceptance for this idea of 'Jessie plausibly being an Important Lover of Cloud's™' :mon:

Yikesakadoodle!

Anyway, hope you're all well.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
Oh, and Mako, I forgot to mention this before, and I'm not trying to start anything, but if you've been in my position before like you said, why have you been knowingly contributing to doing it to someone else (me)?

Since you addressed me, I'll answer.

If you look through my post history you will see the years and years of discourse, debate and dialogue I've had over a myriad of minutiae on the topic of FFVII. Sometimes it's been calm, sometimes cool, sometimes heated, and sometimes utterly insane. But through it all, is the understanding that if you have the desire to engage, you should probably have the chops to deal with the response and feedback.

No, not everyone will see things from your perspective, generally speaking. And when your perspective is so hardened and aggressively advocated for, it's no surprise everyone is going to look at you side-ways and be utterly gobsmacked as to why you're so vehement on one single interpretation.

The reason why I'm "knowingly contributing" is because like all else, it's a discussion board. This is what happens when you posit theories or premises for discourse for people to freely reply to. And the more dug in and aggressive you are with your position, the more likely you are to get an equally opposite rebuttal.

There's a reason why a single word describing Tifa's relationship to Cloud is so vehemently disagreed with, despite the supposed clear interpretation and black and white text existing on a page. Likewise, there's a reason why the default date choice for the Gold Saucer is debated so vehemently, along with the meaning of a certain character's words uttered during a certain date.

Even if you think it's just "one little thing" or not, that doesn't mean it's an understood or universally accepted or even capable of being accepted. And the point of a discussion is to be able to read, understand and when appropriate, incorporate the points that you missed and intelligently and respectfully respond with the synthesis of the points.

Once more, I simply don't even understand why the fact it means so much that your interpretation be made canon, or how it negatively impacts your work. Even if Jessie is never given a single bit of affection from Cloud, or never gives a hint of affection towards Cloud, that does not diminish your creative endeavors at all. Not one bit. Your creative interpretations, works, and ideas are not negatively impacted. You are free to enjoy what you enjoy. I seriously don't get your hang up over it, nor why you seem to somehow take it so personally.

I think DC's Deeground Soldier and Tsviet concepts were some of the coolest new characters and concepts created in FFVII lore, but one thing you won't ever find me doing is being personally offended or attacked by someone who thinks they're a dumb idea that should be burned in hell fire. It makes no difference to me because that's their opinion, they will think what they want, and I'll do the same. And if I were the type to be creatively motivated, I'd probably do fics about them happily and go on about life.

There's no reason to be that strongly associated to one thing, be it a ship, idea, or anything. Especially to this level if you're trying to discuss it and debate it.
 

fancy

pants
AKA
Fancy
@fancy! Don't let this abomination of a thread mark your return to the forum xD
coming back like
giphy.gif
 

Val

Pro Adventurer
You know, there was no need for you to say anything, Val. I'm tired of arguing about it. I'm also tired of being constantly disagreed with and argued with. And just when the thread/topic slows down, someone else shows up to post another disagreement and keep it going, likely not aware of the cumulative effect all of that has on a person. You're not a pscyhoanalyst, so please don't tell me what I'm thinking or feeling. I don't think you would want the same done to you.

None of this is necessary, but you have constantly invited responses. I am welcome to examine and comment on your posts as I feel, and I feel it is necessary. It is quite hypocritical to suggest that I do not do that, and to not analyze you, then for you to suggest what I do, and tell me what I might or not desire.

And you know, putting me down doesn't help, either. Just saying. It just has the opposite effect and perpetuates this thing, as does the constant disagreement. I'm not asking anyone to say things they don't mean. There's just no need to say anything at all and keep it going. And incidentally, I wasn't really that invested in the pairing when I first started writing my story. it just developed as the writing went along and all the trailers came out last year.

You do not have to interpret this as putting you down. As you tell many others, that is what you choose to believe. I am asking you to reevaluate how you impose yourself on others and commenting, explicitly, on how you are behaving. I do not care what made you invested in this relationship, or even its merit. You'll note that I have made no mention of it, because that isn't the issue. You're very clear that the disagreements and the apparent rudeness and insults are what is affecting you.

I think you only say their arguments are logical and rational because you agree with them. Would you still if you didn't? It's your opinion that the idea is implausible, not a fact. Everyone has some amount of bias, nobody is purely logical. And nobody knows everything. Including me. But as many have already done, I think you're misunderstanding what I'm asking for. I've made it quite clear earlier in the thread. One small moment of reciprocity, of acknowledgement of her feelings. No dialogue needed. Even Tres has said that it may not be unreasonable.

I say their arguments are logical and rational because they utilize the most logic and rationality in producing them and arriving at their conclusions. Again, please do not suggest that someone else is not being rational because you believe something else. It is once more a case of your hypocrisy. Nobody needs to be purely logical to state something profoundly more logical than a less logical alternative. I am aware of what you're asking for, and it is not "one small moment of reciprocity". It is others' agreement and acceptance that this is reasonable and believable. Would we be here if that was all you wanted? Would you need to go to such lengths to convince us of the possibility it could happen?

I'm not pressuring anyone. I'm not making them reply to any of the threads. They're choosing to do that on their own. I'm just replying when replied to. Oh, and Mako, I forgot to mention this before, and I'm not trying to start anything, but if you've been in my position before like you said, why have you been knowingly contributing to doing it to someone else (me)?

You have gone out of your way on this page alone to insist someone elaborate on something they explicitly told you they did not want to. That is pressure. At this point, you are lying. Putting others in a situation in which they are expected to comfort you or appeal to your emotions because you have an issue, unprovoked, is pressuring one into spending their emotional energy on you. I am well aware of times you have done this.

What I want is to not be made to feel so alone, for people to stop arguing with me and going on and on and on about how and why they think it won't or can't work.

Let an argument go? Don't push an agenda? Don't take every criticism or comment as a slight or an attack? Do not frame others as antagonists because they share a forum and a discussion with you and are failed to be persuaded by your arguments and suggest you look at things from another perspective? You would have a much better time interacting with members and perhaps feel a sense of community if you committed to one of these things.

If you guys disagree, fine, but I don't need a list of all the reasons why or essays on how bad it would be. Just a simple, polite thing like "I understand what you're saying, but I don't agree." without all the extra exposition and without denigrating the idea itself. And before anyone goes and says I should do the same, I will, if it's also done for me. Also, before anyone brings up what happened with EM, I'll admit I shouldn't have been so stubborn about that question and should have just let it be.

Again, on this page alone, you have received a "agree to disagree" yet pushed the matter, and that person did not denigrate the idea of what you proposed in giving that response. Yet you pursued it. And now nobody can bring it up, because it invalidates a claim you are making? You want others to concede to you on so many points, and even specifically outline that you will not do the same for them if they do not. So, why would you expect that to happen? Why are you expected to be absolved of the mistakes you have made in engaging with others in this thread, if you refuse to do the same for others (from your perspective)?

Tres, thanks. It's not so much the topic as it is the overwhelmingly negative response with seemingly no thought given as to how all of that piled together would affect me. I think people might only be thinking of their own argument when they make it and not even realize that it's adding to the negative cumulative effect I mentioned earlier.

I have written out an entire post about how I have considered how this entire interaction has affected you and you have chosen to take it as an attack so that you can continue with a "me against the world" attitude. All you want is a bit of reciprocation in the remake? If it is so minor why are you so adamant about insisting it be granted to you? You want others to validate something you consider minor yet is clearly important to you, but do not allow them to disagree with and deny that on similar grounds. I have no doubt you feel victimized and targeted here. But while you ask for introspection you seem to do none of your own.

I'm sorry again that my tone strikes you as putting you down. Perhaps it has that effect. I am intending to elucidate a clear issue with the direction you have taken this entire discussion in the face of contention. How quick you were to disregard at least contemplating what I had to say. How frankly you expect and demand things of myself and others yet feel free to state what you please.

Feel free to ship these characters. As I say that is not remotely the issue that this has developed into. You can do that without the insistence to others that you have your views acknowledged. I'll take my leave at this point, whatever route this thread is directed towards, it seems inevitable it will degenerate into a battle with you feeling wronged.

Good luck!
 

Maidenofwar

They/Them
I haven't seen all the leaks or read the full script so I honestly can't say the full extent of what things are possible or not. Currently I think there is enough room for small concessions and there are some interactions but nothing that significantly
alters or affect overall plot
Bear in mind even from the trailers we know Aerith rescue from Shinra HQ is still on so that's going to be a focus of Cloud and the party after pillar fall so as people touched on the pillar events have to be natural and flowing as the story arc continues so yes while a non verbal and small physical gesture might work I think any confessions or significant romantic interactions would have to be earlier and with enough time passing with chapter arcs to keep things natural and flowing too!
 

Jairus

Author of FFVII: Lifestream & FFVII: Reflections
Since you addressed me, I'll answer.

If you look through my post history you will see the years and years of discourse, debate and dialogue I've had over a myriad of minutiae on the topic of FFVII. Sometimes it's been calm, sometimes cool, sometimes heated, and sometimes utterly insane. But through it all, is the understanding that if you have the desire to engage, you should probably have the chops to deal with the response and feedback.

No, not everyone will see things from your perspective, generally speaking. And when your perspective is so hardened and aggressively advocated for, it's no surprise everyone is going to look at you side-ways and be utterly gobsmacked as to why you're so vehement on one single interpretation.

The reason why I'm "knowingly contributing" is because like all else, it's a discussion board. This is what happens when you posit theories or premises for discourse for people to freely reply to. And the more dug in and aggressive you are with your position, the more likely you are to get an equally opposite rebuttal.

There's a reason why a single word describing Tifa's relationship to Cloud is so vehemently disagreed with, despite the supposed clear interpretation and black and white text existing on a page. Likewise, there's a reason why the default date choice for the Gold Saucer is debated so vehemently, along with the meaning of a certain character's words uttered during a certain date.

Even if you think it's just "one little thing" or not, that doesn't mean it's an understood or universally accepted or even capable of being accepted. And the point of a discussion is to be able to read, understand and when appropriate, incorporate the points that you missed and intelligently and respectfully respond with the synthesis of the points.

Once more, I simply don't even understand why the fact it means so much that your interpretation be made canon, or how it negatively impacts your work. Even if Jessie is never given a single bit of affection from Cloud, or never gives a hint of affection towards Cloud, that does not diminish your creative endeavors at all. Not one bit. Your creative interpretations, works, and ideas are not negatively impacted. You are free to enjoy what you enjoy. I seriously don't get your hang up over it, nor why you seem to somehow take it so personally.

I think DC's Deeground Soldier and Tsviet concepts were some of the coolest new characters and concepts created in FFVII lore, but one thing you won't ever find me doing is being personally offended or attacked by someone who thinks they're a dumb idea that should be burned in hell fire. It makes no difference to me because that's their opinion, they will think what they want, and I'll do the same. And if I were the type to be creatively motivated, I'd probably do fics about them happily and go on about life.

There's no reason to be that strongly associated to one thing, be it a ship, idea, or anything. Especially to this level if you're trying to discuss it and debate it.

Well, like I said, it didn't used to be as important to me. But the writing and the trailers got me more into it. And the overwhelming disagreement just made dig in further. If the responses had been more mixed and not so one-sided, I don't know if it would have affected me the same way. The same if the responses hadn't largely insisted on demeaning the idea itself and listing out all the ways it couldn't work instead of just saying something like "I understand where you're coming from, but I don't feel the same way," and left it at that without going into all the supposed reasons why.

None of this is necessary, but you have constantly invited responses. I am welcome to examine and comment on your posts as I feel, and I feel it is necessary. It is quite hypocritical to suggest that I do not do that, and to not analyze you, then for you to suggest what I do, and tell me what I might or not desire.

I haven't asked anyone to respond. But I respond when responded to. And I didn't use terms of certainty when talking about you. I used qualifiers to allow that what I said was only possible and that I might be wrong about it.

You do not have to interpret this as putting you down. As you tell many others, that is what you choose to believe. I am asking you to reevaluate how you impose yourself on others and commenting, explicitly, on how you are behaving. I do not care what made you invested in this relationship, or even its merit. You'll note that I have made no mention of it, because that isn't the issue. You're very clear that the disagreements and the apparent rudeness and insults are what is affecting you.

You did bring up my writing and said I didn't have to write about what I believe, which is why I explained how I got into it.

I say their arguments are logical and rational because they utilize the most logic and rationality in producing them and arriving at their conclusions. Again, please do not suggest that someone else is not being rational because you believe something else. It is once more a case of your hypocrisy. Nobody needs to be purely logical to state something profoundly more logical than a less logical alternative. I am aware of what you're asking for, and it is not "one small moment of reciprocity". It is others' agreement and acceptance that this is reasonable and believable. Would we be here if that was all you wanted? Would you need to go to such lengths to convince us of the possibility it could happen?

I've had to because many won't even allow for that one moment, and that one moment IS something I could be fine with. I don't expect much more than that and never have.

You have gone out of your way on this page alone to insist someone elaborate on something they explicitly told you they did not want to. That is pressure. At this point, you are lying. Putting others in a situation in which they are expected to comfort you or appeal to your emotions because you have an issue, unprovoked, is pressuring one into spending their emotional energy on you. I am well aware of times you have done this.

And you missed the fact that I admitted, quite freely, that I shouldn't have bothered EM about the question. I admitted that was wrong. But I guess you didn't see it.

Let an argument go? Don't push an agenda? Don't take every criticism or comment as a slight or an attack? Do not frame others as antagonists because they share a forum and a discussion with you and are failed to be persuaded by your arguments and suggest you look at things from another perspective? You would have a much better time interacting with members and perhaps feel a sense of community if you committed to one of these things.

And it might be easier if I wasn't being overwhelmingly disagreed with. That has a cumulative effect. And why am I the only one who has to look at things from another perspective? Why not any of you? I'm tired of being singled out.

Again, on this page alone, you have received a "agree to disagree" yet pushed the matter, and that person did not denigrate the idea of what you proposed in giving that response. Yet you pursued it. And now nobody can bring it up, because it invalidates a claim you are making? You want others to concede to you on so many points, and even specifically outline that you will not do the same for them if they do not. So, why would you expect that to happen? Why are you expected to be absolved of the mistakes you have made in engaging with others in this thread, if you refuse to do the same for others (from your perspective)?

As I told you, I admitted I was wrong to push EM about the question. And that's all I was doing, not trying to argue with him further. But I should have dropped it. You misread me. I never said anything about conceding, I said it's fine to disagree, I just don't need to be beat over the head with all the supposed reasons why it's thought it won't work or have the idea demeaned, and I said I'd show the same courtesy if it was shown to me. I don't know what mistakes of the others you're referring to, though.

I have written out an entire post about how I have considered how this entire interaction has affected you and you have chosen to take it as an attack so that you can continue with a "me against the world" attitude. All you want is a bit of reciprocation in the remake? If it is so minor why are you so adamant about insisting it be granted to you? You want others to validate something you consider minor yet is clearly important to you, but do not allow them to disagree with and deny that on similar grounds. I have no doubt you feel victimized and targeted here. But while you ask for introspection you seem to do none of your own.

Actually I have been looking at myself, otherwise I never would have admitted I was wrong about pushing EM or apologized to Tres earlier. As I said before, it's the way people are doing it and how one-sided it is that affects me and drives me, not the disagreement itself. And the very fact that people aren't even willing to budge on something you say is so minor. It makes them seem inflexible. I don't want this to keep going and going, let me make that clear. I'm not looking for reasons to do that, and I'm not trying to perpetuate an attitude. If you've followed the thread like you said, you'll know I am outnumbered.

I'm sorry again that my tone strikes you as putting you down. Perhaps it has that effect. I am intending to elucidate a clear issue with the direction you have taken this entire discussion in the face of contention. How quick you were to disregard at least contemplating what I had to say. How frankly you expect and demand things of myself and others yet feel free to state what you please.

I wasn't trying to disregard what you said. I did read and respond to it. Just because it wasn't necessarily in the way you thought it should be doesn't mean I didn't think about it. But it was rather wordy. And telling me what you think I'm doing does not help me and does come off as a put down.

But I accept that that might not be your intent, so apology accepted.

Feel free to ship these characters. As I say that is not remotely the issue that this has developed into. You can do that without the insistence to others that you have your views acknowledged. I'll take my leave at this point, whatever route this thread is directed towards, it seems inevitable it will degenerate into a battle with you feeling wronged.

Good luck!

I wouldn't be so insistent on it if people weren't so insistent on laying out all the reasons they don't like it and in some cases denigrating the very idea itself. Disagree, fine, as long as it's polite - I just don't need essays about it dissecting it and tearing it down.
 
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Sasseli

~*:Newbie:*~
It wasn't provoking (well,I did kinda take a stand for EM, who didn't want to answer any questions, which wasn't respected, but ok, maybe not my place to do so...)

But: I'm no native English speaker and in my book (aka old vocabulary lists from school), to reciprocate means to return someone's feelings. And that's what I'm totally against. If it can mean something else, too, then maybe I'm wrong.

I'm still sad that this thread can't seem to go in a different direction, because of hurt feelings and pointless arguing (yes, I'm part of it). There's nothing left to argue about. Everything's been said twice.
 

Odysseus

Ninja Potato
AKA
Ody
It's just been the same thing over and over for 9 pages.

Jairus: "Cloud and Jessie could have at least a little intament moment of some sort, the sacred LTD isn't the end all be all. Just have an open mind! Stop being so rude about everything."

Everyone else: "It doesn't make sense for the story, there's more to explore with Jeasie than that, nobody is being that rude."

And it's just gotten more and more pedantic and nitpicky as it's gone on. The main posts have devolved into giant quote walls. Everyone has made their points, nothing is changing. Like, I'm more on your side than most people here Jairus, but even I think you need to give it a rest already. Continuing to respond to everyone is just going to make you more upset. Move on.

I hope once the remake comes out we can morph this thread into discussion about how Jessie is actually used in the game.
 

Alex Strife

Ex-SOLDIER
Jairus. The very short message that I am going to write here is NOT coming from a personal problem with you (we've never really had any problem), it's not putting you down and it's not attacking you. With that said:

You care way, way, way, way, way, way too much about a fictional character. You're treating something that doesn't exist in a much too personal way. You're giving considerations to what should or should not be done with the character in a way that makes it abundantly clear that you see Jessie as a lot more other than a videogame character.

I don't think it's wrong to be attached to fictional characters. Not at all. It speaks a lot about who we are, what we want from life, what we have, what we're missing... and that's the thing.

But this just goes too far. Way, way too far. Jessie is a videogame character. People will have all sorts of opinions about her. Some good, some bad. Some, you will agree with, some you won't.

Whatever we debate here doesn't matter. Square has already finished the only FFVII Remake game where Jessie has a strong presence in. In a month and a half we will know exactly what goes on there. You will have your own interpretations and others will have theirs. And there may be disagreements. And that is fine. You don't need to convince people. You don't need people to see things the same way you do.

As EM said before, you can agree to disagree.



As a bonus, an example on how this conversation comes across most of the time:

- I like chocolate.
+ I like vanilla better.
- That's good, I don't really think vanilla's that good.
+ This is because you failed to consider how sophisticated the natural sweetness of the plant matches well with so many dishes.
- I have, I just like chocolate better and don't fancy vanilla.
+ But have you considered that vanilla could be better?
- I haven't. It's personal and I like chocolate better. But you're fine to like vanilla, of course.
+ I want people to understand why vanilla is better.


Another important point, Jairus. The way you're talking half of the time is making people dislike Jessie. Because they're conflating her with all the conflict that comes with you. I have to say I'm lucky not to have been in most discussions about this topic because I'd be seriously tired of it by now...
 

Jairus

Author of FFVII: Lifestream & FFVII: Reflections
Ody, I'm willing to give it a rest if everyone else is. I'm tired of hearing people going on and on and on about how bad an idea it is or the reasons they think it won't work. That doesn't help. I shouldn't have to be the only one to give it a rest, and I don't want to be singled out. It's not just me.

I understand what you're saying, Alex, and I know you're just trying to help. I appreciate it. Maybe I got a little too attached to her, I don't know. I don't really know why. I get what you're saying with your example, but it's not been a 1 on 1 conversation, it's been a many on 1 argument. And that's part of what perpetuates it. I may have said some things I shouldn't, but I also shouldn't be the only one who has to watch what they're saying. How they say things should be addressed as well. It's not just me, and some of the things I said were in response to such comments made to me in the first place.
 
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