Just Think

[Cat Rage Room]

Yes, yes it is.

No, no it isn't. It's fiction, it has some crazy shit going on, but the base foundations, like MOST contemporary fiction, is based on some real life shit.

-Real life military operations=Dudes going at it and fighting
-Final Fantasy 7=Dudes going at it and fighting

Remove the fictional elements, and its still humans fighting against other humans. There are tons of variables to this that can make killing necessary or not and they can share the same base foundations and reasonings for one or the other.

 

[ForceStealer]

That's funny, I've recently started taking note, for some reason, of the amount of people you actually kill in video games. With the Shinra army being a good example. Pretty much everyone here is right.

Chances are they didn't kill every last opponent in their way, they probably just incapacitated several, and not necessarily on purpose. For example, when they were raiding the Junon reactor, they were moving fast. In all likelihood they're running by, some troops raise a gun at them. Barret fires a few rounds or Cloud slashes, the guy falls out of the way and they keep moving. The man could very well have taken a round to the shoulder or a slash to the arm that simply knocked him over.

Obviously, they also face real opponents that stand their ground would have been cut down, or Vincents bullets and Cid's spear simply hit home and killed someone.

It's why I think, were they to make another RPG-style game following DC, it would be interesting to see how the world regards them. We know they're regarded as the Heroes of the Jenova War, but apart from the rich folk that lived on the plate and lost their easy electricity, I would imagine there are many many families of Shinra troops that AVALANCHE killed and might even hate them.

I always spared the guys on the sub, they were your friends from the Junon parade! I wasn't gonna kill'em.

 

[Mormz]

Well, shit, if you're going to be so vague as, "Dudes going at it and fighting," then yes. FF7 has shitloads to do with real life. I saw some dudes going at it fighting the other day and thought to myself, "Ha! Totally FF7, man!"

Fucking brilliant. Thanks for opening my eyes.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Well, shit, if you're going to be so vague as, "Dudes going at it and fighting," then yes. FF7 has shitloads to do with real life. I saw some dudes going at it fighting the other day and thought to myself, "Ha! Totally FF7, man!"

Fucking brilliant. Thanks for opening my eyes.

You totally missed my point. Let's try this again, champ. I'm saying that both real life situations and FF7 feature conflict, and they both share variables that may or may not require killing or simply disabling.

 

[Smaddy]

Well then you also have to consider- what would happen to Average Joe Grunt when you summon something like Knights of the Round on him? Kills him? Incapacitates him?

And wow, if you think about what AVALANCHE did, think about DOC. I think Vincent single-handedly kills most, if not all, of Deepground's officers.

And yes, it's definitely possible that there are some people angry at AVALANCHE, but isn't it technically thanks to their effort that people are alive to be able to be angry at them...?

Anyway, seriously, it's like any war veteran- war is an ugly thing, you might have to kill someone. If you're a war veteran from somewhere, yes whoever's on the opposite side of you probably does not think of you as a hero.

 

[Mormz]

You totally missed my point. Let's try this again, champ. I'm saying that both real life situations and FF7 feature conflict, and they both share variables that may or may not require killing or simply disabling.

Actually, I'm pretty sure I see your point quite clearly. I just think it's rubbish.
If someone's trying to kill you, more often than not, it's beneficial to have them dead.

I fail to see what's so hard to grasp there, but whatever.


And yes, all those people they "knocked out" were trying to kill them. Superhuman or not, they still had bullets flying at them, swords slashing, weird magic shit, etc.. <.<

 

[Cat Rage Room]

If someone's trying to kill you, more often than not, it's beneficial to have them dead.

I fail to see what's so hard to grasp there, but whatever.

Not all the time, in both real life (I can think of plenty of real life examples to this) and in fiction.

It's hard to grasp because it ain't true, bro.

 

[Mormz]

Riiiiiight. Ok, then. From now on, the marines can no longer kill their enemies. They can either shoot to incapacitate, or not shoot at all.

That's how you win a damned war.

Also, someone shooting at you? Don't shoot back, you might kill them. Instead, knock them the fuck out. GOOD LUCK!


Twat. <.<

 

[ForceStealer]

And wow, if you think about what AVALANCHE did, think about DOC. I think Vincent single-handedly kills most, if not all, of Deepground's officers.

Probably, but Deepground are kind of a special case as I doubt any of them have family, and if they did, their family probably thinks them dead. Sounds like DG is a pretty miserable place anyway, Vincent's probably doing them a favor.

And yes, it's definitely possible that there are some people angry at AVALANCHE, but isn't it technically thanks to their effort that people are alive to be able to be angry at them...?

Unless they blame them for the Meteor crisis to begin with. They were apparently willing to do so when Shinra tried to execute them.

Anyway, seriously, it's like any war veteran- war is an ugly thing, you might have to kill someone. If you're a war veteran from somewhere, yes whoever's on the opposite side of you probably does not think of you as a hero.

Of course, though someone with a son in the Shinra Army isn't necessarily on Shinra's "side." And I just it'd be interesting to see how SE handles the dynamic should they make another game next in the chronology.

Also, someone shooting at you? Don't shoot back, you might kill them. Instead, knock them the fuck out. GOOD LUCK!

That's not what he's saying at all, twat.

 

[Max Payne]

When you're in a fight against people with guns, magic, and swords, with strict order for them to see you dead, you're not going to fight them to incapacitate them. You've got a lot more chances of screwing up and winding up dead if you treat your enemies life with as much care as your own.

They've killed a lot of people because they had to, and would have died themselves had they not. A lot of people probably narrowly escaped encounters with Avalanche with their lives.

 

[Mormz]

Because EVERY gunshot's fatal.

Way to pick the stupid way out.

9 times out of 10, and inexperienced shooter will shoot the target somewhere in the body. Even experienced shooters do this, because if bullets are flying your way, you're not taking your fucking time to aim at a leg or something.

AND, since you would probably be a decent ways from the enemy, a leg would be nigh impossible to hit.

So I think that just leaves body shots. I'm not saying all body shots are fatal, but I think most are. Especially if no one's calling paramedics. (Something Cloud and co. didn't do)

So, yes, most gun shots have a high mortality rate.

 

[ForceStealer]

I'm not sure MOG meant Avalanche was pulling punches, just that some people probably did survive fights with them for a number of reasons. ...and considering curative magic exists...

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Also, someone shooting at you? Don't shoot back, you might kill them. Instead, knock them the fuck out. GOOD LUCK!

Alright I was hoping you would get what I'm saying but I guess I'm going to have to school the fuck out of you.

There are plenty of real life examples where one side tries to kill the other, but killing them is undesireable.

There have been tons of public demonstrations and protests gone bad, where the protesters have tried to kill the government or police force keeping them in check. Unless that government wants to have the U.N. jamming them up the ass, they use non lethal ways of pacification such as tear gas, rubber bullets, etc.

There are military and police operations where the goal is to keep casualties to a minimum. A soldier can be trained (and trained very well) to shoot someone without killing them.

There are domestic situations where an argument can go bad, and a brother or wife tries to kill the other with a knife or something. Unless you're a bastard, you don't want to kill your brother or your wife, so if you can manage to get the gun/knife away from them, or break their arm or something instead of killing them, you will.

Killing is sometimes necessary. But it isn't always.

 

[Celes Chere]

Also, you have to consider that between you and Mormz, you're a 19 year old and he's a dude from Louisiana. Saying what 'you would do' (or what any of us would do, really) in that situation doesn't apply to theirs.

Um, what? O_O I was just agreeing with what he said. FF isn't real, obviously, so that's why it's easy to be so nonchalant while killing characters that are trying to kill me, especially when they all look the same and have no personalities. If they're shooting at me, then yeah, I'd better kill them.

In real life, I don't think I'd ever be able to kill anyone unless it were for self defense, and even then it would be hard for me. I wouldn't have NO qualms about killing someone who first shot at me, since it's an actual human life, but I think it makes a lot of sense to do so. Fantasy and reality are very very different.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

In real life, I don't think I'd ever be able to kill anyone unless it were for self defense, and even then it would be hard for me. I wouldn't have NO qualms about killing someone who first shot at me, since it's an actual human life, but I think it makes a lot of sense to do so. Fantasy and reality are very very different.

That's what I'm saying. Yes, fantasy and reality are very different, but unless you're going for something totally different or you just suck balls as a writer, you're going to make your fantasy at least somewhat reminiscent to real life.

Fictional characters can (and do) show remorse, regret, and restrain towards killing and battle. In fiction, the consequences, circumstances, and results can and do still apply. The MGS series handles this well. There's a difference between "Those Shinra soldiers were in the way so I had to take them down" and "HE'S STILL MOVING WEAKLY! BARRET, EMPTY A CLIP INTO HIM!"

 

[ForceStealer]

Yeah I'm not exactly sure of the argument being made. Are you guys saying Avalanche went around wantonly killing everyone that looked at them funny - and then coup d'grace-ing the ones that were still moving?

The fact that you can spare the officers in the submarine shows that Avalanche was willing to avoid killing when they could.

 

[Max Payne]

The only thing I'm saying is Avalanche has a lot of blood on their hands, and a lot of those people were probably just folks working for Shinra to make money for their families, or to impress girls like Cloud was.

Hell, they inadvertently killed a lot of people with the reactor bombings, and there's no way they didn't know about those deaths when they got reported on the news after each bombing.

I'm sure a few people got away from their encounters alive(not too sure about them being in one piece), but not for lack of trying on Avalanche's part. They just couldn't afford to pull any punches, unless the situation specifically allowed that kind of leniency.

Of course I'm sure they only killed when they had to, but you gotta realize that was the situation pretty often.

 

[Celes Chere]

That's what I'm saying. Yes, fantasy and reality are very different, but unless you're going for something totally different or you just suck balls as a writer, you're going to make your fantasy at least somewhat reminiscent to real life.

Fictional characters can (and do) show remorse, regret, and restrain towards killing and battle. In fiction, the consequences, circumstances, and results can and do still apply. The MGS series handles this well. There's a difference between "Those Shinra soldiers were in the way so I had to take them down" and "HE'S STILL MOVING WEAKLY! BARRET, EMPTY A CLIP INTO HIM!"

Ah, I think I understand a bit more clearly what you're getting at here. Seeing it through Cloud's eyes, yeah I could see it being hard. Mostly through Zack's eyes, because he was the one who said he didn't know if it was wrong or right, but he was going to continue fighting. It actually does tug a heart string or two for me when I think of it that way. I know it certainly did in MGS. =(

Like, in MGS3 during the part with The Sorrow and you get to see all the people you've killed and some of their thoughts before they died such as, "how would you like it?". That was pretty intense and also brilliant. When I think of it that way, I feel bad for killing people even though they are my enemies in the game. If you really get into the game (which I know I do) where you're getting emotionally involved and trying to experience the events as the character would experience it- then yeah, it's actually possible to feel bad for killing people who are 'shooting at you'.

Now that I think more about it, those ShinRa grunts had families and friends, their own stories too. Just because we don't see them, doesn't mean they don't exist.

Huh, thanks for the new insight.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

The only thing I'm saying is Avalanche has a lot of blood on their hands, and a lot of those people were probably just folks working for Shinra to make money for their families, or to impress girls like Cloud was.

Hell, they inadvertently killed a lot of people with the reactor bombings, and there's no way they didn't know about those deaths when they got reported on the news after each bombing.

I'm sure a few people got away from their encounters alive(not too sure about them being in one piece), but not for lack of trying on Avalanche's part. They just couldn't afford to pull any punches.

Of course I'm sure they only killed when they had to, but you gotta realize that was the situation pretty often.

Oh, most definitely. I don't disagree there.

 

[Mormz]

Alright I was hoping you would get what I'm saying but I guess I'm going to have to school the fuck out of you.

School the fuck out of me? Oh joy, I get to be 'schooled' by the Infamous M.O.G.! Knower of all!

There are plenty of real life examples where one side tries to kill the other, but killing them is undesireable.

I never said there weren't.

There have been tons of public demonstrations and protests gone bad, where the protesters have tried to kill the government or police force keeping them in check. Unless that government wants to have the U.N. jamming them up the ass, they use non lethal ways of pacification such as tear gas, rubber bullets, etc.

Ok, but those were civilians. Military and civilians are different. Especially in war.
I don't see the relevance there.

There are military and police operations where the goal is to keep casualties to a minimum. A soldier can be trained (and trained very well) to shoot someone without killing them.

I know, however, if someone's shooting at them, they mostly try to find the quickest way of stopping that.

There are domestic situations where an argument can go bad, and a brother or wife tries to kill the other with a knife or something. Unless you're a bastard, you don't want to kill your brother or your wife, so if you can manage to get the gun/knife away from them, or break their arm or something instead of killing them, you will.

Fuckery. All of that. Has nothing to do with what I said. If you're unarmed, you're not doing any killing, anyway.

If they have a gun, you're probably already dead. Real life ain't like the movies, it's kind of hard to get to someone and take a gun from them.

And you're still taking a risk with a knife.

Killing is sometimes necessary. But it isn't always.

Is that what you've read in my posts? I never once said it was always necessary. That's just bullshit.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Ah, I think I understand a bit more clearly what you're getting at here. Seeing it through Cloud's eyes, yeah I could see it being hard. Mostly through Zack's eyes, because he was the one who said he didn't know if it was wrong or right, but he was going to continue fighting.

Also consider that for the most part, Zack fought with the blunt side of his sword. He went out of his way not to kill anyone. I don't think that Cloud has the same regard for life perse (I'm sure he doesn't, Zack's near saint like kindness was unique to him), but it was certainly possible to fight and not kill everything in sight in the FF7 setting.

stuff

I'm not even sure what you're saying anymore.

 

[Splintered]

I've never considered it because it's an RPG, I want to level up, and I'mtotallystealingForceStealerFromThatSoldier. So it never bothered me. The same with fighting Wutai troops. But once they are given a semblance of a personality and option to save them I did, like in the submarine.

Collateral damage was something no one really thought of in FFVII, which is probably why it was highlighted in Tifa's novel so much. Granted she was sad for the civilians killed rather than the shinra grunts. And throughout the game, there were small efforts of humanizing the Shinra soldiers that weren't in battle.

Still doesn't bother me. Rather, I was more aware that I was fighting for Shinra during Crisis Core, knowing Zack's inevitable fate. It's probably easier because Shinra was always the bad guy and faceless enemies can only be described with Shinra lapdogs.

Killing is sometimes necessary. But it isn't always.

Agreed but sometimes killing is instinctual/reflexive during an intense situation. When the adrenaline is pumping and the situation doesn't go to plan, people do what they are trained to. For soldiers, that's kill.

Not to say they can't be trained to pacify but all great plans go to shit with initial contact with the enemy.

 

[ForceStealer]

The only thing I'm saying is Avalanche has a lot of blood on their hands, and a lot of those people were probably just folks working for Shinra to make money for their families, or to impress girls like Cloud was.

Hell, they inadvertently killed a lot of people with the reactor bombings, and there's no way they didn't know about those deaths when they got reported on the news after each bombing.

I'm sure a few people got away from their encounters alive(not too sure about them being in one piece), but not for lack of trying on Avalanche's part. They just couldn't afford to pull any punches, unless the situation specifically allowed that kind of leniency.

Of course I'm sure they only killed when they had to, but you gotta realize that was the situation pretty often.

Exactly. Like what I said in my example of the Underwater Reactor raid, I would imagine people came out of that because AVALANCHE didn't have time to make sure everyone was dead, just that they were out of the way.

I always really liked that sequence actually, because by that point all the Shinra troops know who you are, "Hey, y-you're Cloud!" "Uh, sir, maybe we shouldn't piss them off."

As for the reactor bombings, I just asked recently in another thread somewhere why they never expressed remorse of the bombing of the No. 5 reactor (or even the bombings in the plural), only the No. 1. Someone reminded me that the size of the explosion the first time was due to a mistake on Jessie's part and was corrected by the No. 5 reactor and so probably didn't kill very many people directly, especially since Shinra knew about it and probably cleared out the reactor.

 

[Mormz]

I'm not even sure what you're saying anymore.

Most likely because you lack the ability to comprehend sentences.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

If they have a gun, you're probably already dead. Real life ain't like the movies, it's kind of hard to get to someone and take a gun from them.

Also, just wanted to address this. Sort of off topic, but whatever.

Yes, real life isn't like the movies. In real life, if you're not trained in the use of a gun, say, if you're an angry housewife or something, you're going to be embarrassingly bad with one.

Granted, ANYONE with a gun is a threat to be taken seriously, but it takes a shitload of training and practice to pretty much hit anything with a gun, and that's when you're calm. A pissed off civilian with a gun going off nothing but pure passion is more liable to slip up and kill themselves than anyone else, really.

A gun is harder than you think to use!

Most likely because you lack the ability to comprehend sentences

But seriously, what point are you arguing here?