Just Think

[Max Payne]

Exactly. Like what I said in my example of the Underwater Reactor raid, I would imagine people came out of that because AVALANCHE didn't have time to make sure everyone was dead, just that they were out of the way.

I always really liked that sequence actually, because by that point all the Shinra troops know who you are, "Hey, y-you're Cloud!" "Uh, sir, maybe we shouldn't piss them off."

As for the reactor bombings, I just asked recently in another thread somewhere why they never expressed remorse of the bombing of the No. 5 reactor (or even the bombings in the plural), only the No. 1. Someone reminded me that the size of the explosion the first time was due to a mistake on Jessie's part and was corrected by the No. 5 reactor and so probably didn't kill very many people directly, especially since Shinra knew about it and probably cleared out the reactor.

The average person would stay down after one gunshot/brokenarmleg/or sword slash. They wouldn't get back up after being wounded, they'd call it a day.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

The average person would stay down after one gunshot/brokenarmleg/or sword slash. They wouldn't get back up after being wounded, they'd call it a day.

Well, granted that the average player is usually able to take down a soldier in most points of the game in one hit, it's safe to assume that some of those people are just as you said, staying down, calling it a day, i.e., not being dead.

 

[ForceStealer]

Yep, or a fire spell explodes and throws you off to the side and the heavily armed group clamors past you, will you fight through your burns and chase them or just stay there? And yeah Mog, that probably happened a lot, it probably also happened a lot that Cloud's sword cleaved someone in half or Barret completely filled someone with lead.

People are kinda splitting hairs here. Avalanche killed a lot of people, just not necessarily every single person you encountered in a fight.

 

[Mormz]

Also, just wanted to address this. Sort of off topic, but whatever.

Yes, real life isn't like the movies. In real life, if you're not trained in the use of a gun, say, if you're an angry housewife or something, you're going to be embarrassingly bad with one.

Granted, ANYONE with a gun is a threat to be taken seriously, but it takes a shitload of training and practice to pretty much hit anything with a gun, and that's when you're calm. A pissed off civilian with a gun going off nothing but pure passion is more liable to slip up and kill themselves than anyone else, really.

A gun is harder than you think to use!

If it's a digruntled housewife, she's probably close enough to hit you with it, far enough where you can't do shit about it.

And end up killing themselves? Mate, the direction of the gun barrel indicates where the bullet will go. Only someone who's never seen a gun or actually wants to kill themself will point the barrel towards them.

I've used plenty of guns. Someone without training can easily figure out "point and shoot"

But seriously, what point are you arguing here?

Most likely because you lack the ability to comprehend sentences.

I thought what I wrote was plain as day. Guess not in the eyes of you, ey?

 

[Cat Rage Room]

People are kinda splitting hairs here. Avalanche killed a lot of people, just not necessarily every single person you encountered in a fight.

Yeah, it boils down to this, really.

 

[Max Payne]

The only folks they probably HAD to kill were SOLDIER. The MP were just normal folks doing what they could to get a paycheck.

SOLDIER's whole purpose is fighting, and their enhancements make them fighting machines, incapacitating one of them without killing them is probably really hard.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

If it's a digruntled housewife, she's probably close enough to hit you with it, far enough where you can't do shit about it.

And end up killing themselves? Mate, the direction of the gun barrel indicates where the bullet will go. Only someone who's never seen a gun or actually wants to kill themself will point the barrel towards them.

I've used plenty of guns. Someone without training can easily figure out "point and shoot"

There have been plenty of people who have shot themselves or missed entirely in failed attempts at homicide. There have also been tons of people who hit what they aimed, and now they're murderers. Let's not split hairs, I'm just saying that guns are difficult for untrained people to just pick up and use and they're liable to just shoot the lamp or something instead of hitting what they aim. But yes, that doesn't happen all of the time.

I thought what I wrote was plain as day. Guess not in the eyes of you, ey?

No, smartass, I can read, I'm asking you what's the overall point you're trying to argue? Are you just spewing words or are you trying to get a specific point across?

 

[Mormz]

There have been plenty of people who have shot themselves or missed entirely in failed attempts at homicide. There have also been tons of people who hit what they aimed, and now they're murderers. Let's not split hairs, I'm just saying that guns are difficult for untrained people to just pick up and use and they're liable to just shoot the lamp or something instead of hitting what they aim. But yes, that doesn't happen all of the time.

Dear Lord, is that..!? I-I think it is! Common ground! COMMON GROUND!!!!

No, smartass, I can read, I'm asking you what's the overall point you're trying to argue? Are you just spewing words or are you trying to get a specific point across?

Why yes, I do have a smartass. Thanks for noticing.

Once more, my point was that you lack sentence comprehension which causes you to not realise my point had been stated.

I love words.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Once more, my point was that you lack sentence comprehension which causes you to not realise my point had been stated.

So that is your overall argument you were trying to make in this topic? Works for you, works for me.

 

[Mormz]

Not quite, but I guess if it makes it over, then sure.

 

[Neutron Ronnie]

Now, think of all the other Shinra grunts you kill while playing through the game. It gives me chills, Cloud and AVALANCHE slaughter Shinra troops by the dozen, and how many of them were just like Cloud and just wanted to impress the cute neighbor girl?

Seriously, does anyone else find cause to stop and reflect once you find out Cloud was just another grunt, and then it really hits you that those anonymous Shinra troops you kill all the time are people too? Well, relatively speaking. Does this bother anyone else, or is it just me?

To answer the question, I actually thought about it before I found out that Cloud used to be a grunt, and it disturbed me a bit (but I was younger back then). I remember being a tiny bit upset that this spiky-haired weirdo punched the air and twirled his sword about after slicing two people up.

Later on, I had to explain to myself that AVALANCHE wouldn't really go grinding in the Shinra building, that was just me. They probably tried to avoid encounters... And they probably didn't hang around one place wasting time - they probably ran along corridors, shooting and hacking and kicking people out of the way. It's very possible that the people they attacked didn't always sustain fatal injuries.

Plus, every random encounter was probably self-defense on AVALANCHE's part. I'm pretty sure they didn't say creepy stuff like "I like the glow of locust blood in this light."

 

[Max Payne]

"I like the glow of locust blood in this light."

YEAH WOO BRING IT ON BABY THIS IS MY KINDA SHIT

 

[Smaddy]

Barret might be an interesting person to bring into this, he really hasn't been mentioned (aside from saying he'd shoot people)-

He expresses remorse for the people he's killed several times. He says he has "too much blood on his hands to hold Marlene".

I don't recall anyone else mentioning remorse about killing their enemies.

When you start thinking about it in terms of actual people, it does make you think. They don't humanize many of your enemies that you actually kill (Rufus and the Turks live), and others are just so evil that honestly they deserve it (Hojo)... the little grunt soldiers though, there aren't many of them with personalities.

When I was younger playing games, I would get a little sad about killing certain monsters, just because they were really cool looking. (not FF7, but the Mana Beast? Bah. )

 

[Neutron Ronnie]

He expresses remorse for the people he's killed several times. ...

I don't recall anyone else mentioning remorse about killing their enemies.

I thought Barret was expressing remorse for the innocents he'd killed during the terrorist attacks... I don't remember - does he specifically mention his enemies?

When I was younger playing games, I would get a little sad about killing certain monsters, just because they were really cool looking. (not FF7, but the Mana Beast? Bah. )

Incidentally, I felt bad killing the colossi in Shadow of the Colossus.

YEAH WOO BRING IT ON BABY THIS IS MY KINDA SHIT

You have a sick mind, Tai Cole Dacon.

 

[ForceStealer]

Plus, every random encounter was probably self-defense on AVALANCHE's part.

Except when you get a preemptive battle

 

[Splintered]

Plus, every random encounter was probably self-defense on AVALANCHE's part. I'm pretty sure they didn't say creepy stuff like "I like the glow of locust blood in this light."

Then again, "it was self defense" only works so much if you go into a building with the intent to blow it up.

 

[Dashell]

That building is coming right for us!

(bonus points to whoever get the reference)

 

[Tetsujin]

South Park?

 

[Dashell]

Yep that's the one
But hey maybe Xemnas was there, he can throw buildings.

 

[Smaddy]

I thought Barret was expressing remorse for the innocents he'd killed during the terrorist attacks... I don't remember - does he specifically mention his enemies?

I'd have to re-read the dialogue, but Barret does indirectly express remorse when he battles in Corel Prison. Not the exact quote, but pretty close: "There's too much blood on my hands to hold Marlene"- I see that line as expressing some remorse.

 

[S and G]

Anyone consider the possibility that SE put in the 'run away like a bunch of fairies' function to prevent anyone getting upset about said topic?

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

You SEE! The Turks are not such bad guys, fighting against AVALANCHE.
Yeah, I know, they're just in it for the money.
But seriously, what disturbs me is the way Cloud runs into people's houses and steals things. Especially after the old people have welcomed him so nicely. Killing people who are trying to kill you, I can accept - but random theft from the poor people of Kalm? It's as bad as Link and his pot-smashing obsession.

 

[Neutron Ronnie]

Anyone consider the possibility that SE put in the 'run away like a bunch of fairies' function to prevent anyone getting upset about said topic?

I didn't, because I figured it was for when you'd bitten off more than you could chew. Or when you were trying to traverse a dungeon as quickly as possible.

But seriously, what disturbs me is the way Cloud runs into people's houses and steals things. Especially after the old people have welcomed him so nicely. Killing people who are trying to kill you, I can accept - but random theft from the poor people of Kalm? It's as bad as Link and his pot-smashing obsession.

You've a point there, though Cid is the one who gets nabbed at Mideel... Seriously, after so many years of playing RPGs, I'm surprised I'm not a kleptomaniac.

 

[S and G]

Consider a list of things that the party did which resulted in death or worse (serious inconvenience) for the people of the Planet:

1) How many people died in the Reactor bombings?
2) AVALANCHE were indirectly responsible for the destruction of Sector7
3) Not only did Cloud steal items (as mentioned by Licorice above), but how many occasions did it come up *Received xxgil savings*
4) Don Corneo did not get sex ever again at his house
5) Elmyra had to leave home and look after Marlene
6) How much damage was done to the Shinra building?
7) How many lives were affected by the deaths or traumatic experiences faced by the employees of Shinra?
8) Think of how nasty things could have turned if the whole 'dance for us, chocobos' scene had been poorly received by the giant birds.
9) The Turks, having lost Reno to injury, were forced to recruit a girl who had made it abundantly clear she had no intention of following in her sister's footsteps
10) Denying the request of the Fort Condor workers for help but using their beds anyway
11) Repeatedly waking the old man in the cave
12) Stealing some poor bastard's uniform to sneak into the Junon Army parade
13) Interrupting the Junon soldier's study session for his SOLDIER induction
14) Making the Junon Army look bad by deliberately not following the drill sergeant's commands in front of Heidegger and Rufus
15) Randomly attacking and killing a mother bird at her nest in the Corel mountains stealing all the pheonix downs she had collected and leaving her chicks without so much as a goodbye

...

more to come...

 

[S and G]

@powerslave: I wasn't actually being serious. My bad


16) Shooting the prisoner in the Mayor's old house in Corel prison for following them. Anyone consider HE MAY HAVE LIVED THERE!?!?!?
17) Killing some poor jockey wannabe's dreams by beating them in the chocobo race to get out of the Gold Saucer (and while we're on the subject, anyone else ever look at Ester's face and think it looks like a skeleton? Creepy stuff...seriously check it out)
18) Appearing in Gongaga to blatantly remind the clearly heartbroken parents of Zack that he is still missing
19) Getting the poor workers at Cosmo Canyon to fix the broken down Buggy
20) Taking up rooms in the apparently 'filled to capacity' Cosmo Canyon
21) Attempting to (and succeeding) to steal the Tiny Bronco from Cid. Remember that he's not actually on it when they take off
22) Ruining the Evil Dragon King play for everyone on Enchantment Night by acting like a tit
23) Making daft choices throughout so that neither Tifa nor Aerith get to ride the Gondola with Cloud
24) Making no attempt whatsoever to help Tseng after he is cut by Sephiroth
25) Setting off an unnecessary amount of detonations in Bone Village which quite frankly would at least get on someone's nerves
26) Stealing Icicle Inn's one map of the Great Glacier
27) Ruining the execution scene in Junon so that the public would remain unhappy

....