• Due to datamining of the demo files, substantial leaks are now everywhere. As a reminder, some of these are in-development screenshots and may point to events that aren't going to be in the final game. Some of them are clearly going to be in the game. The TLS stance is this: Any thread which will contain discussion on the leaked images/ details must clearly contain [SPOILERS] within the title. Anything within those threads does not need to be spoiler tagged. Any POST anywhere on the board containing spoilers must be spoiler tagged or it will be removed and warned. Please report this where you see it. Let's try to make sure everyone can still freely post until everyone has a chance to play this game please!

Leaked Character Screens (Untagged Spoilers, potentially big implications)

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
I'm not reading the script and other text leaks, so the impression I got is that the Guardians are just a manifestation of the Lifestream that Sephiroth hijacked to help him with his plans, all the while passing it off as some kind of 'Destiny' to mess with Cloud (& Co.) because he is incredibly extra. Does that seem pretty close so far?
That's 99% accurate. :monster:

A very on point summation. Sephiroth being "extra" lol that's too good xD
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
Unfortunately, it's not accurate at all. =P Red, rather than Seph, is apparently the one to describe these things as "arbiters of fate" and say "they are drawn to those who attempt to alter destiny's course."

Then if you read what they are, then you'd understand literally nothing about what you're talking about is on topic of what the Guardians of Destiny are. They aren't shaping the motivations or fates of the main characters. That's not their job or function. They deal with maintaining the order and balance of the Planet, and that system is now hijacked by Sephiroth to enforce his design of the planet's destiny.
Okay, but what you're describing also doesn't lend itself well to using words like "fate" and "destiny" in the first place -- and those words are what some of us are taking concern from. Like billy22 fairly pointed out, they're usually cringey when used as storytelling devices, so regardless of what they end up meaning for this story (barring some clever subversive angle, obviously), it gives us pause and concern that the developers are even thinking words like that.

They're usually cringey to begin with, and they would -- by my assessment anyway -- make for a terrible clash of tone, theme, etc. for FFVII. It's going to take the game itself to change my mind on this, I'm afraid.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
Unfortunately, it's not accurate at all. =P Red, rather than Seph, is apparently the one to describe these things as "arbiters of fate" and say "they are drawn to those who attempt to alter destiny's course."
Red describes the Whispers as that because they are called that. And Sephiroth toys with the heroes on the concept of Destiny because the Whispers are following his will. They follow him around. They are literally manifestations of the Lifestream/Planet Sephiroth has seized control of to aide him in implementing his goal of attaining godhood and thwarting Cloud and the others. That's the most succinct summation of their presence.


Okay, but what you're describing also doesn't lend itself well to using words like "fate" and "destiny" in the first place -- and those words are what some of us are taking concern from. Like billy22 fairly pointed out, they're usually cringey when used as storytelling devices, so regardless of what they end up meaning for this story (barring some clever subversive angle, obviously), it gives us pause and concern that the developers are even thinking words like that.
But this isn't a storytelling device. It's simply the term for the planet's own will, which has existed since the start. It's no different than FFVI having "gods" that live above humans, but are nothing actually equivalent to the true concept of actual omnipotent creators. It's a name. A term. Sephiroth and Kefka aren't literal angels, and neither are the Arbiters of Fate... "Fate."

Leviathan is believed to be the god of water, while Ifrit is stated to have been the god of fire who gave humans the gift of flame. Do the summons of VII actually rise up to the level of literal gods now? Is there a pantheon of gods who reside in heaven now, thanks to these entities being known as gods in the lore history of VII?

And of course the Whispers lend themselves to that term. If you're the inhabitant of a living, conscious planet capable of steering the course of its own existence, then it is completely reasonable for those aware of this planetary force, to attribute its cosmic actions to the nebulous uncontrollable concept known as fate. This is the same world which held a race that believed in a Promised Land of supreme happiness, spawned kaiju level monsters that harassed humanity, carries a mythical Goddess, and features the spirit's eternal reincarnation after death. What average person who sees the works of the planet wouldn't call its actions something such as "fate?"

The workings of the Planet simply move beyond most people's control (unless you're Sephiroth) and marches at a level unseen by most. It's workings being attributed to a term called "fate" makes perfect sense.

And "cringey" is in the eye of the beholder. This isn't the first time the fate of the future has been enunciated or fought for in VII's world. Humanity rested on the planet's judgment on if humans were seen as "good for the planet" or "bad for the planet."
Bugenhagen leveled fighting for the planet's survival as "wishing against fate" due to the fact the planet was already near death.
And Sephiroth's goal in VII was in his words, "create the future" and "create a shining future. Which Aerith stating the future wasn't just his to decide.

This clash against perceived fate has been part and parcel to Final Fantasy since the first, and showcased as recently as the fifteenth. And all we have here is the planet's means of enforcing its existence through the "Whispers" which have been named with the "F" word.

That... really doesn't detract or fall out of line with the overall planetary concept. It's a name for the planet's will.
 
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Yeah, the way that the Remake (and the OG to a lesser extent) is using terms like “fate/destiny”, is not in the super specific dictionary definition of those terms. Like this is really common trope in the fantasy genre, JRPGs and anime/manga especially, to use said terms in very nebulous and broad ways when dealing with anything beyond the scope of human understanding/power. It’s not being included to imply that the actions of the characters are all pre-deterministic with no agency, it’s more about illustrating the nature of The Planet’s existence but not narrowly defining it either.
To further use the living organism analogy, it’s like describing the role red blood cells have to deliver oxygen and nutrients throughout the circulatory system is because of the “fate/will” of the body.
 
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hleV

Pro Adventurer
Isn't the fact that those ghosts need to interfere in order for the Planet's destiny to be followed, prove that there's no real pre-determined fate?
If the Planet can create Weapons to protect itself, it can probably create ghosts to try and maintain its life plan.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
But this isn't a storytelling device. It's simply the term for the planet's own will, which has existed since the start. It's no different than FFVI having "gods" that live above humans, but are nothing actually equivalent to the true concept of actual omnipotent creators. It's a name. A term. Sephiroth and Kefka aren't literal angels, and neither are the Arbiters of Fate... "Fate."

Leviathan is believed to be the god of water, while Ifrit is stated to have been the god of fire who gave humans the gift of flame. Do the summons of VII actually rise up to the level of literal gods now? Is there a pantheon of gods who reside in heaven now, thanks to these entities being known as gods in the lore history of VII?
That's a poor comparison. "Gods" has always been a catch-all for non-human entities of greater-than-human power. For that matter, as FF and fantasy in general go, gods typically have a specific sphere of influence, either spatial or elemental. Omnipotence is not implied.

Mako said:
This clash against perceived fate has been part and parcel to Final Fantasy since the first, and showcased as recently as the fifteenth.
To be somewhat pedantic, XV was about the opposite of clashing against fate ... :monster:

Isn't the fact that those ghosts need to interfere in order for the Planet's destiny to be followed, prove that there's no real pre-determined fate?
If the Planet can create Weapons to protect itself, it can probably create ghosts to try and maintain its life plan.
Of course. That doesn't stop the word choice from raising concerns.

Do we trust Kazushige 🤔?
Egh, hard to say. He's been responsible for both some of the best and worst writing in FF's history. I'd say more good than bad, though. Let's just hope he's gotten over whatever mid-life crisis he was going through when he wrote that awful FFX-2.5 novel.
 
It just sounds to me like they’re needlessly obfuscating and cluttering the punchiest and most straightforward part of FFVII’s story, and I think the story as a whole suffers immensely from it.
my concern is that no matter how it's explained, i wouldn't call it better or even good. the game itself may yet prove me wrong, but i don't see how it's necessary or anything less than pointless convolution.

then beyond that (and this might just be my sceptic jumping out), i really think this level of anthropomorphisation...is worse. i understand that the narrative premise is just the most literal interpretation of the gaia hypothesis possible, and that animism was always a cornerstone in the worldbuilding. but the emphasis on planetary sapience (or even housing a living god) capable of passing judgements -- as opposed to a complex, living biosystem that humans are part of -- is much weaker. i just think, in this case, the more degrees of separation from the real world, the less salient and effective the storytelling.

same thing with leaning into a more rote magical girl characterisation for aerith and emphasising the (alleged) genealogical otherness of the cetra instead of their mundanity and their "extinction" as a case of an interrupted cultural lineage. i always thought of ffvii's as a kind of used, post-fantastic world whose magic has mostly fled and whose basic workings are shrouded in ontological mystery (even to its inhabitants). in other words, a roughly analogous commentary on the way industrialisation has alienated real world human beings from the biosphere (and each other). whether that was accidental on the writers' part, or they changed their minds, or it was a misinterpretation on my end, it's more than disappointing seeing the story leaning in the other direction.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
@Random Nobody
I pretty much feel word-for-word what you do here. I do think, though, that @Makoeyes987 and @Suzaku were most likely correct with what they each said in this thread:

"The game needs some sort of 'padding' which hints at the global stake of the plot but also leaves the main notable plot thread to be extrapolated further later on."

"I suspect they'll be used as a sort of springboard to introduce and contextualize the more macro scale cosmological concepts that are presented later in the game."

It really feels like a fair point in light of the multi-part structure. I'm just hoping it's done as well in practice as these two worded it in their posts.
 
"The game needs some sort of 'padding' which hints at the global stake of the plot but also leaves the main notable plot thread to be extrapolated further later on."

"I suspect they'll be used as a sort of springboard to introduce and contextualize the more macro scale cosmological concepts that are presented later in the game."
that's fair. but i also don't feel like it's the most effective way, if that is the purpose. i'm also still not convinced it's strictly necessary, because i do think most of the player base will be able to extrapolate the same meaning from the (already very explicit) environmentalism that's inevitably going to be part of the first game. i'm sceptical that the tradeoff for beating the audience over the head with a club is really worth.
 
AKA
Mr. Ite
my concern is that no matter how it's explained, i wouldn't call it better or even good. the game itself may yet prove me wrong, but i don't see how it's necessary or anything less than pointless convolution.

then beyond that (and this might just be my sceptic jumping out), i really think this level of anthropomorphisation...is worse. i understand that the narrative premise is just the most literal interpretation of the gaia hypothesis possible, and that animism was always a cornerstone in the worldbuilding. but the emphasis on planetary sapience (or even housing a living god) capable of passing judgements -- as opposed to a complex, living biosystem that humans are part of -- is much weaker. i just think, in this case, the more degrees of separation from the real world, the less salient and effective the storytelling.

same thing with leaning into a more rote magical girl characterisation for aerith and emphasising the (alleged) genealogical otherness of the cetra instead of their mundanity and their "extinction" as a case of an interrupted cultural lineage. i always thought of ffvii's as a kind of used, post-fantastic world whose magic has mostly fled and whose basic workings are shrouded in ontological mystery (even to its inhabitants). in other words, a roughly analogous commentary on the way industrialisation has alienated real world human beings from the biosphere (and each other). whether that was accidental on the writers' part, or they changed their minds, or it was a misinterpretation on my end, it's more than disappointing seeing the story leaning in the other direction.
QFT fuckin this
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
That's a poor comparison. "Gods" has always been a catch-all for non-human entities of greater-than-human power. For that matter, as FF and fantasy in general go, gods typically have a specific sphere of influence, either spatial or elemental. Omnipotence is not implied.
Nah. In JRPGs in general, "fate" has always been the catch-all phrase for the malevolent designs of powerful/well-connected/dastardly individuals or entities that move behind the scenes of civilians, and intend to corral our heroes in a no-win situation to force them to surrender. :monster:

It's a word usually used to imply power and purpose. To imply divine mandate and power to their cause or some phenomenon. It's no different than the enemies enshrouding their appearance or actions in divine iconography. Calling it "destiny" doesn't mean the literal rote definition of the word or story device. At least, most of the time.

...Because as you mentioned regarding FFXV, that has been the most real FF story that has had a true to form manifestation of "destiny" as given by gods, which ended up being realized beyond the actions of people and their choice. That game if anything, had that plot device, for better or ill.

And going through more dialogue lines, the sheer mind-fuckery Sephiroth plays on Cloud and the others is far more heavy and indicative of a person intent on throwing off the game of his enemies. He implies the Planet is his, he will change its fate for the better, and mockingly beckons Cloud to join him.

There's a lot that requires visual context but from what the dialogue presents and everything, I'm gonna guess that the Whispers get sicced on the Shinra Building and raise hell for everyone which culminates with the heroes confronting him on the Highway after evading chase by Shinra.

But I'm 99.999% positive there's no time travel or literal god(s) ala Bahamut the Blademaster moving or deciding the fates of the characters.

then beyond that (and this might just be my sceptic jumping out), i really think this level of anthropomorphisation...is worse. i understand that the narrative premise is just the most literal interpretation of the gaia hypothesis possible, and that animism was always a cornerstone in the worldbuilding. but the emphasis on planetary sapience (or even housing a living god) capable of passing judgements -- as opposed to a complex, living biosystem that humans are part of -- is much weaker. i just think, in this case, the more degrees of separation from the real world, the less salient and effective the storytelling.
That "fantasy" is literally, literally, baked into the bones of FFVII since 1997. The White Magic spell Holy is there to pass judgment (holy judgment) and decide what gets to stay, and what gets removed as "bad for the planet." The Planet made a judgment and decided that humans were worthy of being left alive and worth saving.

Nevermind the connotation of the planet casting judgment on humanity, the sheer act of the Cetra communicating with the Planet and hearing it answer back, respond to questions, and tell its history doesn't leave a question at all regarding if there is true sapience at work.

The existence of gods and supernatural entities manifested by the Lifestream are a product of the collective consciousness and memories that have returned back to its source throughout the entire age of the planet. Spirit energy is composed of memories and experiences of every person who has lived and died on the planet. Those cultural and iconic mythological memories and beliefs form a blueprint that serves as the base for creating the entities that are born from the Planet. The planet's collective consciousness birthed Minerva as a goddess that represents and protects it. Summon monsters themselves are born from that memory and housed in materia. There's nothing "weak" about it, that's spirit energy 101. It's the memories of humanity and life that give shape and existence to the 'gods' that are created by Lifestream. This isn't a "biosystem." It's a spiritual energy system based entirely on memories threaded through time.

This is Final Fantasy, where memory and spirit energy are intertwined and made real through magic. VII is leaning into what it charted out in the first place.

same thing with leaning into a more rote magical girl characterisation for aerith and emphasising the (alleged) genealogical otherness of the cetra instead of their mundanity and their "extinction" as a case of an interrupted cultural lineage. i always thought of ffvii's as a kind of used, post-fantastic world whose magic has mostly fled and whose basic workings are shrouded in ontological mystery (even to its inhabitants). in other words, a roughly analogous commentary on the way industrialisation has alienated real world human beings from the biosphere (and each other). whether that was accidental on the writers' part, or they changed their minds, or it was a misinterpretation on my end, it's more than disappointing seeing the story leaning in the other direction.
Aerith has always been "magical" or perhaps speaking to people in their dreams is a fundamental skill of all young women? Or generating healing wind? Speaking with the dead?

The Cetra were not just cultural in their attachment to the planet. The Cetra were a distinct race of people that had an affinity and ability to literally heal and speak with the planet. They could speak with the dead. The reason other humans cannot perform the feats the Cetra could, is because they are simply not Cetra. If you thought the world of VII was some how "post-fantastic" when there was a literal temple that magically had its shape shrunk down to the size of a softball and became the most destructive magical gem capable of invoking a planetoid to wipe humanity, I don't know which game you were playing.

Kaiju level monsters were spontaneously generated by a planet as a means of last defense to wipe out anything it thought was a clear and present danger to itself. Magical monsters were invoked from gems. And an alien-human hybrid super-soldier had the power to shapeshift, telekinetically manipulate reality, and deceive others through mind reading.

There's an analogy to reality but it's a fantasy-based analogy. Ignoring the clear spiritual and fantasy elements that have been with Final Fantasy since the first, was simply your mistake. Not some departure from the original.

that's fair. but i also don't feel like it's the most effective way, if that is the purpose. i'm also still not convinced it's strictly necessary, because i do think most of the player base will be able to extrapolate the same meaning from the (already very explicit) environmentalism that's inevitably going to be part of the first game. i'm sceptical that the tradeoff for beating the audience over the head with a club is really worth.
It's necessary because the real story's villain and antagonist is Sephiroth. A character so intrinsically intertwined with VII, that to omit or dilute his presence or role, would leave a void that would be far too great to just fill in with someone else. Something of his needs to fill in that antagonist gap, without completely wiping the punch and overarching plot that is between Jenova, Meteor and Sephiroth's godhood plan. Something that shows that Shinra are not the true villain, something far worst is lurking above them.
 
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...i am gonna be real with you, i am not gonna read or respond to all that™ because i am currently on my way to tikhfist whilst typing with my thumbs and crouching in the only corner of this kasuwan magani outhouse where i can catch the wee-fee, but

Makoeyes987 said:
That "fantasy" is literally, literally, baked into the bones of FFVII since 1997. The White Magic spell Holy is there to pass judgment (holy judgment) and decide what gets to stay, and what gets removed as "bad for the planet." The Planet made a judgment and decided that humans were worthy of being left alive and worth saving.
when i use the phrase "post-fantastic," i mean it in the same vein as the word "postmodern." i'm not saying that ffvii is a world beyond or lacking magic, but that "magic" is integrated into the planet's biophysical environment (and narrative). it's not presented as a reality apart, but as the basis of the natural world. ergo, the hyperindustrialisation and mass alienation from magic/nature is no different from what you might usually discuss in environmental philosophy. it might skirt on trad foolery or 18th century European romanticist aristocrat with the vapours, but that's essentially the vein i'm striking at (but mostly because i can't be bothered to elaborate further).

i also contest the idea that sentient = sapient. i will agree that the og isn't explicit either way, but whereas we know the planet is alive, the nature of that life is quite ambiguous. whether it's in the sense that it's a macro biosystem, a holobiont, or some kind of weird collective swarm organism like a slime mould that is both the sum of its parts and inclusive of everything on it (or a combination of these things). or something else. you could technically fit all those ideas under a strictly animist cosmology.

i'm like 60% teasing, but the point is that you can just as easily attribute the events of the story (including the existence of weapons) to the equivalent of induced hpr or allomones or something. the last question the og left was whether or not human civilisation was too estranged from the natural world to be reconciled as a rightful part of it, but a stringent, literal reading isn't necessary either. i'm not gonna call a cell network sapient because it sent some cytotoxics after a virus.

Aerith has always been "magical" or perhaps speaking to people in their dreams is a fundamental skill of all young women? Or generating healing wind? Speaking with the dead?
dogg, all women from the ages of 13 - 69 can do this tho.

The reason other humans cannot perform the feats the Cetra could, is because they are simply not Cetra.
but really, not being funny, but you're arguing against a position i haven't taken. never did i say the world of ffvii isn't magical or "fantastic," just state the way the function of those elements wrt to storytelling served [my?] interpretation of that story. writ large: in this world's ancient past, humans communing with nature and other feats of otherworldly talent were completely unnoteworthy, as germane to humanity as breathing. it was only once some of them abandoned their customs and reverence in favour of industrialised society that they slowly suffered disconnection. hence lending the corn shucking jebediah marcus traddius reading.

and yes, i would argue that making the cetra so removed from humanity that their extinction permanently severs the path back towards ecological reconciliation, undercuts the plot. much the same way that i think that failing to emphasise how eldritch JENOVA is and how unnatural sephiroth's abilities are is a disservice to the story. having the two be as incomprehensible and unbelievable to the characters in the story is effective in a way (escalation and) every other blue eyed devil and his mother back flipping over buildings is not.

i mean, i can offer you a better elaboration and take it more seriously but you'd have to wait until i get to dubai because i'm fucking...i'm sweating out here.
 
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Pandemonium

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Nate
I just hope the game proves to be a great game, on par if not better than the original.

I hate to see all this fighting. It kills the specialness of the moment.
I feel the same... From what we've been told, this will not be a carbon copy, so I'm going in optimistic about what we'll see. Especially since each part will be full games
 
Well, my eyes glazing over from scrolling through people's attempts to explain away some of the game's more misguided plot elements certainly feels like Final Fantasy, soooo...I guess that's good. Although I feel like, typically, these type of things would usually start maybe a year or so post-release, as opposed to before the games actually come out. So that's new!
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
But I'm 99.999% positive there's no time travel or literal god(s) ala Bahamut the Blademaster moving or deciding the fates of the characters.
Again, I'm 99 percent confident you're right about that, but that's talking about this in terms of what it means within the work. That's only one concern, and most likely not one that will become problematic, for the very reasons you've gone over a few times now.

The other concern that I and others keep coming back to is the choice of these words by the real-life people developing the game. It calls to mind too much of the cheesiest, weakest forms of writing.

Again, the concern is not because of an expectation of fate/destiny being used as a plot device, but because so much media that uses these words extensively is the shallowest of shounen or the most juvenile in its narrative aims. The concern here is about the thought processes going into the development of the revised narrative, not so much the plot mechanics occupying the narrative.

Mako said:
The Cetra were not just cultural in their attachment to the planet. The Cetra were a distinct race of people ...
See, that's where you're losing us. It's well-established that baseline humans on FFVII's world are just Cetra who stopped practicing Cetran culture. The reverse then should also be true: Cetra are not baseline humans because they still practice Cetran culture.

It can and arguably should be a genetic thing to a degree (e.g. the child of a Cetra being more naturally in tune with the planet), but overplaying any anatomical differences is plain silly. It clashes with both the themes and the world-building about what Cetra and regular humans' relation to one another is.

...i am gonna be real with you, i am not gonna read or respond to all that™ because i am currently on my way to tikhfist whilst typing with my thumbs and crouching in the only corner of this kasuwan magani outhouse where i can catch the wee-fee, but
Well, that's our Mako. :monster: He makes damn sure to honor the Bothans who died for us by getting the most out of the page space allotted by the Internet -- never say with 100 words what could be said with a thousand. :awesome:
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
...i am gonna be real with you, i am not gonna read or respond to all that™ because i am currently on my way to tikhfist whilst typing with my thumbs and crouching in the only corner of this kasuwan magani outhouse where i can catch the wee-fee, but
That's fair, I'll just address your main points then. I get what you meant by "post-fantasy" now, anyways.

i also contest the idea that sentient = sapient. i will agree that the og isn't explicit either way, but whereas we know the planet is alive, the nature of that life is quite ambiguous. whether it's in the sense that it's a macro biosystem, a holobiont, or some kind of weird collective swarm organism like a slime mould that is both the sum of its parts and inclusive of everything on it (or a combination of these things). or something else. you could technically fit all those ideas under a strictly animist cosmology.

i'm like 60% teasing, but the point is that you can just as easily attribute the events of the story (including the existence of weapons) to the equivalent of induced hpr or allomones or something. the last question the og left was whether or not human civilisation was too estranged from the natural world to be reconciled as a rightful part of it, but a stringent, literal reading isn't necessary either. i'm not gonna call a cell network sapient because it sent some cytotoxics after a virus.
That ambiguity towards planet sapience exists up until maybe disc 2 when Ifalna dictates how the Planet espoused on its history and conflict with Jenova.

Gast
Ifalna, what exactly does Planet-reading entail?

Ifalna
...I can't explain it very well, but it's like having a conversation with the Planet...It said something fell from the sky making a large wound. Thousands of Cetra pulled together, trying to heal the Planet... But, due to the severity of the wound, it was only able to heal itself, over many years.
Clearly it has to have some means of communicative skill and recollection to be able to recall events that happened thousands of years ago. Which makes sense, given the fact, the entire Lifestream is it's literal soul.

And then as I said earlier, there's the entire premise of Holy itself.

Cloud
Holy?

Bugenhagen
Holy... the ultimate White Magic. Magic that might stand against Meteor. Perhaps our last hope to save the planet from Meteor.
If a soul seeking Holy reaches the planet, it will appear. Ho Ho Hooo. Meteor, Weapon, everything will disappear. Perhaps, even ourselves.

Cloud
Even us!?

Bugenhagen
It is up to the planet to decide. What is best for the planet. What is bad for the planet. All that is bad will disappear. That is all. Ho Ho Hooo. I wonder which we humans are?
The clear implication of judgment by the planet via the ultimate White Magic spell, Holy. Humanity was placed before the planet's judgment and deemed worthy of a second chance. In part thanks to Cloud and the others fighting to the bitter end to save it from Sephiroth. Something was communicated to the planet that made it decide humanity was worth saving. Because before, the Planet was on its last legs, thanks in large part to humanity.

If there was no sentience to the Planet, why would spirit energy even exist and serve as means of other micro-spirits to be able to communicate? Why would materia and summons exist? Why would there be clear communication to the planet? And why would Sephiroth be able to maintain his ego amongst the flow? If spirit energy is composed of memories, the mind, and experience, why would the largest composite of spirit energy we see thus far, be somehow immune to that logic?

Hell, I even forgot this line from Aerith herself in the Temple of the Ancients.

Aerith
It's full of the knowledge of the Ancients. No... not knowledge... consciousness... a living soul... It's trying to say something. I'm sorry, I don't understand.
No sentience? No sapience?

and yes, i would argue that making the cetra so removed from humanity that their extinction permanently severs the path back towards ecological reconciliation, undercuts the plot. much the same way that i think that failing to emphasise how eldritch JENOVA is and how unnatural sephiroth's abilities are is a disservice to the story. having the two be as incomprehensible and unbelievable to the characters in the story is effective in a way (escalation and) every other blue eyed devil and his mother back flipping over buildings is not.
Not necessarily, because even with the far flung removal of the Cetra, we clearly see Bugenhagen, Cloud, Barret, Tifa, and all the others able to distinctly hear the cries of the planet and understand on a basic level what it says. Even with the lack of clear communication the Cetra are capable of exhibiting, even a lay person who opens their heart are able to hear some of the sounds and feel what the planet communicates. It's capable within everyone, but the Cetra were clearly the masters of it.

And given how Sephiroth's abilities and powers are far beyond every person seen thus far, I don't see how there's a difference. And you say that back flipping over buildings isn't effect, but that's somehow implying or ignoring that those type of extradordinary abilities and powers never existed in the OG in the first place. They exist but much like any "power" there are levels of it, and parameters that exist within said fictional world. Impaling a giant snake on a tree for free, warping reality, and mastery of an alien organism isn't the same level as exhibiting superhuman swordsmanship in a pinch or martial arts capable of suplexing a giant mecha with enough training.

The other concern that I and others keep coming back to is the choice of these words by the real-life people developing the game. It calls to mind too much of the cheesiest, weakest forms of writing.

Again, the concern is not because of an expectation of fate/destiny being used as a plot device, but because so much media that uses these words extensively is the shallowest of shounen or the most juvenile in its narrative aims. The concern here is about the thought processes going into the development of the revised narrative, not so much the plot mechanics occupying the narrative.
Naw, that's an incredible double-standard then, because no one would be batting an eye if these ghosts existed in the original game with the exact same name, look, and function that they have now. It's only because they're new we're even having this discussion on if they're at odds with the original. And this is FF where these creatures' names are 100% in line with everything shown thus far.

Heck, what of the bearded black mage spirits in the Temple of the Ancients who are trapped there thanks to the Planet? We even had a Guardian of Time spirit there too. :monster:

Kaiju monsters at the behest of the planet, erupting from the earth and running amok like something out of Godzilla or Power Rangers? They get a pass.

And where was the concern on how cliche destiny or fate sounded when the word was used over a dozen times in FFXII, or FFX?

What about the Liberali Fatali (fated children) of Garden that had to fulfill "their destiny" and confront the Sorceress from the future?

Or when the literal, rote concept of destiny was used to its fullest effect in XV?

Etc, etc.

The fact is every FF has grappled with implied or some dubiously named element called "destiny." It's part and parcel with an RPG saving the world and fighting evil. And no one bats an eye at it, just like the implied divinity of final bosses and the bond of relationships/friendship offering the hope of triumphing over conflict. If the very name of a plot device is somehow the bridge too far for VII, how or why in the world would any FF fan be still a fan to this day? It's there all the time. I guess FF is cheesy by design then, to which I say, okay. Sure. But cheese by itself can be a rich and gourmet food when aged and served correctly.

Well, that's our Mako. :monster: He makes damn sure to honor the Bothans who died for us by getting the most out of the page space allotted by the Internet -- never say with 100 words what could be said with a thousand. :awesome:
Hey, I don't use twitter for a reason.
 

ChaosTheory

Lv. 1 Adventurer
AKA
Johnny
We don't quite have the full picture yet but it does look like its veering away from a fully explorable Midgar. Its hard to say how much will be accessible in the post-game so I wouldn't quite say linear either but we definitely see alot more of the city compared to the OG, especially above the Plates.
Damn... I was expecting The Witcher 3 type of exploration of Midgar...
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
Naw, that's an incredible double-standard then, because no one would be batting an eye if these ghosts existed in the original game with the exact same name, look, and function that they have now. It's only because they're new we're even having this discussion on if they're at odds with the original.
Well, yeah, no kidding. lol Might as well say we wouldn't have any concerns about a remake to discuss if they weren't making one.

Mako said:
Heck, what of the bearded black mage spirits in the Temple of the Ancients who are trapped there thanks to the Planet? We even had a Guardian of Time spirit there too. :monster:
And what bearing does that oddly named critter have on this discussion?

Mako said:
Kaiju monsters at the behest of the planet, erupting from the earth and running amok like something out of Godzilla or Power Rangers? They get a pass.
A pass on what? Do you even know what point you're trying to make -- or what point you're responding to? =P

These last couple of points read like illustrations of "non sequitur."

Mako said:
And where was the concern on how cliche destiny or fate sounded when the word was used over a dozen times in FFXII, or FFX?
Clearly didn't come up enough for me to even remember their use -- not that it would matter while experiencing their well-crafted stories. Which I've already pointed out we aren't yet able to do here. Thus, pre-release speculation and discussion, which includes the expression of concerns.

Mako said:
What about the Liberali Fatali (fated children) of Garden that had to fulfill "their destiny" and confront the Sorceress from the future?
You mean in the FF where fate/pre-destination was a literal plot mechanic? And thus one of the reasons it is arguably the black sheep of the franchise -- but definitely inarguably one of the most divisive installments among the fandom to this day? One that even those of us who love it love either in acknowledged spite of or a little bit in part due to how thick it lays on all the fairy tale stuff?

If you're suggesting that FFVIII has never been dragged through the coals over its use of fate, I have to direct you to anywhere on the Internet that discusses FF, including this forum.

Mako said:
Or when the literal, rote concept of destiny was used to its fullest effect in XV?
Yeah, plenty of people hated it there in FFVIII's spiritual successor as well.

Mako said:
The fact is every FF has grappled with implied or some dubiously named element called "destiny."
Not really, no. And hell, despite it being central to the plot of FFVIII, the main characters don't even know it until after their part in the pre-destination bit is fulfilled.

Ironically -- and one of the things that I think makes FFVIII's use of the concept interesting -- is that it's the villain of the piece who is trying to grapple with fate/pre-destination, and it is ultimately the heroes who unknowingly enforce it.

But I've let you lead me down quite enough of a tangent from the actual topic at hand here now. =P

Mako said:
If the very name of a plot device is somehow the bridge too far ...
I'm just going to take this as confirmation that you don't know what the topic we're discussing is. =P
 
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