Lightning Returns: Final Fantasy XIII Spoiler Thread

[Lex]

Isn't the point of the soul that it's not physical though? So really, he shouldn't be able to see the physical soul at all. (are we really having a discussion about the word opaque XD)

 

[Kuja9001]

Now I have an issue with Bhuni and the soul business

The translation I posted claims he's unable to see souls however this translation says otherwise

http://hikamitz.tumblr.com/post/111425210884/correcting-the-biggest-translation-error-in-the

translation error on the first translator's part?

 

[Jason Tandro]

Isn't the point of the soul that it's not physical though? So really, he shouldn't be able to see the physical soul at all. (are we really having a discussion about the word opaque XD)

You know how much we love semantic discussions on this board Lex!

But no, I agree "opaque" is not the best word to use in this context; it is using it as an antonym of "clear, transparent" which is true but also implies visibility.

Can't we just agree that the game had horrible, horrible writing and be done with it?

 

[Clement Rage]

What was so cryptic about 13's plot?

Spoiler

Bart wants the Maker back and wants lots of destruction to do it. That's not in the datalogs, Cid straight up tells you.

Destruction of Cocoon as a possible focus comes up early on.

 

[lithiumkatana17]

What was so cryptic about 13's plot?

Spoiler

Bart wants the Maker back and wants lots of destruction to do it. That's not in the datalogs, Cid straight up tells you.

Destruction of Cocoon as a possible focus comes up early on.

Well the thing is, we're never actually told that until about 15-20 hours into the game (depending on how fast you play through it). The majority of the game up until you reach Gran Pulse is just a broken party piddling around Cocoon, having the same redundant conversations over and over and over again, never accomplishing much of anything. From the time the party's turned into l'cie up until you reach Gran Pulse, nothing is really accomplished except for character development, which is of course is a good thing, but it could have been accomplished in better way than wandering a hallway for 20 hours.

The game itself didn't even start getting good (for me at least) until about 20 hours in. That has never happened when I've played a Final Fantasy game. It's always hooked me from the start and kept me interested. Final Fantasy XIII starts off good for the first hour or two, and then it immediately pulls the dragshoot.

I agree with everyone else. The overall trilogy has a fantastic mythos; it just got off to a rough start with a poorly told story.

 

[Clement Rage]

Okay, but the point of the game is their efforts to figure out the focus, Light/Hope opt for destroy, Snow goes for save, Vanille goes for 'Run the fuck away!' That was compelling for me, moreso than most of the later games.

Taking out the Sanctum is a goal early on, because of the whole 'purge' deal. They just didn't know who was really in charge.

Completely agreed on the hallway part, though.

 

[Lex]

I mean, nobody's arguing that the character development wasn't good or didn't happen, but the plot - instead of being interwoven into that - is just very poorly explained. They don't take any time to talk about the why of it, it's all just angst about being l'cie.

 

[Clement Rage]

Huh. I thought they did talk about what was going on, but just had no conclusions because they don't know, had no trustworthy information, and were too busy being hunted down by the army to dwell on it much. I preferred it to the plot of the sequels, on the whole. What did you want to know that you had to go datalog diving for?

 

[Flare]

When I think about XIII's plot, and the way the characters all behaved, it does seem pretty realistic though. They become l'Cie pretty early on and are forced together as a group though most of them don't know each other, and they're suddenly being hunted down so they just gotta run, and though some of them (or all) are freaked out, they still want to live, so they keep running.
You're constantly being chased by Cocoon forces until... you reach Pulse, right? It's hard to come up with a plan on what the heck to do when that's all going down, especially when you get separated from each other. Lighting comes up with one fairly early on, but it seems like she's just grasping at straws, and just needs something to go after.

 

[Arianna]

Now I have an issue with Bhuni and the soul business

The translation I posted claims he's unable to see souls however this translation says otherwise

http://hikamitz.tumblr.com/post/111425210884/correcting-the-biggest-translation-error-in-the

translation error on the first translator's part?

But the fal'Cie had feelings! Gods! I don't see why that is so hard to keep straight?!

 

[Lex]

Huh. I thought they did talk about what was going on, but just had no conclusions because they don't know, had no trustworthy information, and were too busy being hunted down by the army to dwell on it much. I preferred it to the plot of the sequels, on the whole. What did you want to know that you had to go datalog diving for?

I really don't want to be ignorant by not answering your question, but I can't give you super specific examples other than the odd thing like learning about Pulse and Cocoon, Lindzei, Ragnarok, The War of Transgression, that kind of thing.

I just bought XIII on steam (the game is weird in 60fps lol) so if I think of other points I'll be sure to post about them.

 

[Clement Rage]

Well, we do get the Pompa Sancta. That and some exposition in the Vile Peaks about how all the junk got there. The only people that could tell the party about the War are Fang and Vanille, one of whom can't remember anything and the other is pretending they can't remember anything.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I don't think anyone is saying the construction of the plot doesn't justify it for whatever reasons. More that the plot could and should have been done slightly differently to accommodate the player's immersion.

When I think about XIII's plot, and the way the characters all behaved, it does seem pretty realistic though. They become l'Cie pretty early on and are forced together as a group though most of them don't know each other, and they're suddenly being hunted down so they just gotta run, and though some of them (or all) are freaked out, they still want to live, so they keep running.
You're constantly being chased by Cocoon forces until... you reach Pulse, right? It's hard to come up with a plan on what the heck to do when that's all going down, especially when you get separated from each other. Lighting comes up with one fairly early on, but it seems like she's just grasping at straws, and just needs something to go after.

It's entirely realistic that these people who know most of this shit (because they have lived in this world) aren't discussing it under such circumstances, sure, but it's not helpful to an outside observer, which should have been the priority in design.

When I think of what to compare this to, I think of FFX, which could have been every bit as incomprehensible had the writer not started from the foundation that all this is as alien to the main character as it is to us. So, not only was the mythos there and the plot solid, but the way it was all conveyed was immersive while still feeling natural.

That's good world building.





Oh, and Lex: Yes, I still hate Lightning Returns. =P

 

[Lex]

Tres <3

OK so I've played up til the end of Lake Bresha (ish) and yes, already remembered a few things that became irksome in my initial playthrough re: world building.

The characters talk about Pulse and Cocoon, being branded as a L'cie by fal'cie and having a focus. As has been mentioned, the characters talk about this stuff but none of it is explained. The first time I played this game I found myself trying to remember the short synopsis I'd read by SE months before I bought it. They need to complete a focus? What's a focus? Why? What are fal'cie? What is Pulse and why are they afraid of it? This is all stuff that doesn't get much exposition at all when it should (i.e. when it's actually happening).

It's easy to look at it now and not see that side of it, because we - the fans of XIII - have spent time reading the backstory and lore and completely understand what they're talking about. Remove that information from your brain and listen to what the characters all say - it makes no bloody sense. It's utterly confusing most of the time. I didn't even know they were inside Anima until my third playthrough or something. It would be OK if this was the sole focus, but it's not. In the span of the first ten minutes, we hear a load of terms that are native to the story of the game and nothing else. Pulse, Cocoon, Fal'cie, L'cie, Sanctum, Hanging Edge, PSICOM, Guardian Corps, Lightning, Sazh, Snow, Team NORA, Hope, etc. etc. It goes on and on with no elaboration and it's confusing as hell if you don't already know what they're talking about. Part of this is because the world and mythos was very solidly there when this game begins, but I really get the feeling that the people who worked on the scenarios of this game became so entrenched in the overall mythos that they forgot the rest of the world has to learn it aswell.

 

[Flare]

Ah, yes, that's it! Introducing players into the mythos and world of the game (Cocoon and Pulse) wasn't handled very well, at all. I didn't even think about that until you guys mentioned it. I get the idea of showing and not telling, but I think since this game has so many different and odd terms, it's hard for new players to grasp what the heck it all means and what's going on.
The most I got out of them being branded l'Cie was that it seemed pretty bad because they were freaking out so much; do they mention that it'll kill you or crystallize you (basically) depending on if you do the focus or not? I forget.

X is a good example of introducing players into the world of Spira, like you said Tres. Even though Tidus lived in it, it was the 1,000 years ago Spira that he 'lived' in, and so everything still gets to be introduced to him and the player simultaneously without being too much of an infodump or being out of the ordinary. I really loved that aspect of X.

I think my dad was even a bit interested in the story, because he saw me playing the game when I was meeting Rikku for the first time and getting to Besaid, and a week later he asked if I was still playing the game where the guy went into the future. He's not a fan of FF games, though I wish he was since he's such a gamer.

 

[Clement Rage]

Thing is, I actually like that in a game. It's the same reason I like the Malazan Book of the Fallen, the characters don't stop to explain to each other something everyone present should already know.

I think you're understating a bit, though. As soon as Cieth show up, we get an explanation of what they are. When Serah turns to crystal, we immediately get an explanation of how and why. Sazh and Lightning talk about how her Guardian Corps is distinct from PSICOM, so we know it's some kind of special military unit. Pulse is referenced in a loudspeaker as 'the world below', lots of characters talk about how 'Pulse is hell'. We don't know exactly what it is, but we know they really don't want to be sent there.

I didn't like the exposition in FFX, really, Tidus annoyed me a bit. I think 9 did it better, with different party members explaining different things in their area of expertise. Zidane is well travelled, and knows about Dali. Garnet is well educated, and knows about the ice cavern. Steiner rants about Mist to stress the dangers of it.

Was it the whole game you hated, or just the ending, TTM?

 

[Blade]

FFXIII:
Expectations: The start of a great conflict, a futuristic action game to end all action games, epic summons and crucial encounters with allies and enemies.

What really happened: All this fighting in a tunnel and I don't really know what I'm supposed to do or what's really going on.

FFXIII-2:
Expectations: We get to play as Lightning in Knight's Armor and battle a dude with a giant sword.

What really happened: It was DLC and it happened a thousand or more times in our heads but not really because we don't live through time loops and have to use our imaginations. Oh yeah and instead of summons, we capture monsters ala pokemon and run around like it's Chrono Trigger only without the team-based attacks. Also lots of side quest schlepping.

FFXIII-3: Lightning Returns:
Expectations: A resounding conclusion with epic battles and a return of old allies and a decent "apology" for the other two games.

What really happened: Basically they finally got it "mostly" right, only it ends up not being as cool as the upside-down acrobatics that the FIRST GAME promised in trailers and cutscenes. Your allies are more background noise than anything else, and more than anything you might as well be playing The Witcher or Fable at this point, because this game is an endless time loop even worse than Garland's Nightmare in FFI (yay for New Game Plussssssses).

 

[Kuja9001]

I'm wanna know how to exact things like in-battle quotes or cutscene quotes off the game disc.

I got the dub vesion for Snow, Bhuni, light but I would love Bhuni's JP battle quotes or his creepy laugh.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Was it the whole game you hated, or just the ending, TTM?

Gameplay was best in the XIII series, story was garbage (and did nothing to resolve unnecessary inconsistencies and opacities in the mythos, such as this crap). I did like the bits with Snow and Noel; one scene with Fang and Vanille; and some of the stuff with Hope toward the end.

Bhunivelze's look and (Japanese) voice were cool too.

 

[Kuja9001]

Was it the whole game you hated, or just the ending, TTM?

Gameplay was best in the XIII series, story was garbage (and did nothing to resolve unnecessary inconsistencies and opacities in the mythos, such as this crap). I did like the bits with Snow and Noel; one scene with Fang and Vanille; and some of the stuff with Hope toward the end.

Bhunivelze's look and (Japanese) voice were cool too.

I ranted about the potential the game had sometime ago.

 

[Flare]

Talking about Bhuni's Japanese quotes, during the fight with him and Lightning, I wish they would've translated those more accurately. From what I heard, his quotes sounded eerily suggestive during the battle in the Japanese version. I think it was explained because he had parts of Hope in him (or whatever, something like that); anyway, I thought it would've fit. It gives a bit different feeling to the situation.

 

[Kuja9001]

Talking about Bhuni's Japanese quotes, during the fight with him and Lightning, I wish they would've translated those more accurately. From what I heard, his quotes sounded eerily suggestive during the battle in the Japanese version. I think it was explained because he had parts of Hope in him (or whatever, something like that); anyway, I thought it would've fit. It gives a bit different feeling to the situation.

like Seymour, Bhuni got twisted for light.

 

[Lex]

I can't sleep so have some XIII

 

[Lex]

Well I streamed for 6 hours what I'd already been playing for quite a few before that. I went from the Vile Peaks at the start of the game to Sulyya Springs midway through Pulse in one sitting. I'll probably stream the rest of the game tomorrow, later in the (UK) evening. Got some stuff to do during the day.

I really want to do a character-centric video series. Like "The story of Fang and Vanille" and "The story of Lightning" that takes all of their important (and light-hearted) scenes across the whole trilogy chronologically. It would be a huge undertaking but I imagine it'd be rewarding to watch in the end, if done right.

 

[Blade]

I really want people to stop playing this game.

But we don't always get what we want.