Lightning Returns: Final Fantasy XIII Spoiler Thread

[Lex]

I (belatedly) moved Obsidian Fire's post here (it was accidentally posted in the non-spoiler thread), its the last one on the previous page regarding the ending.

Please try to avoid doing that guys, it was hard to move the post here and have my eyes simultaneously dance around all the text and pictures ;-;

you people are evil spoiler fiends

 

[Mwynn]

Only 5 weeks left pal, you can do it.

Anyways, for some reason my internet was acting up and I wasn't able to update my last post quick, so I guess i'll just post here what I was going to insert.

I realized another thing that could prove how soul and Chaos are separable. The very plan of Bhunivelze involves bringing humanity's souls in his new world and then purifying the Chaos inside them (memories, will, bonds, etc.). He also needed a new goddess which could complete the reincarnation cycle, but I assume in this process the human souls won't be given pieces of Chaos, making them ignorant and mindless living dolls.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Maybe you guys should just stop being spoiler pussies, Lex.


And I see your -- and her -- point, Mwynn. Only a certain amount of humans would have ever existed, so, presumably, the same amount who lived at the time of the war had lived long before.

The only thing I can figure is that Barthandelus wanted the majority to be on Cocoon, so those on Gran Pulse would first need to die and be reborn on Cocoon -- but that doesn't fit the order of events either, as Ragnarok was supposed to have destroyed Cocoon back then, and it was only after and partly because of the war that the population of Gran Pulse began dying out. It was Barthandelus's intention that Etro's Gate would have already been opened before the citizens of Gran Pulse died out anyway.

The limited number of humans concept makes the Purge completely counterproductive too. If you only have so many humans to work with, and you need so many to die simultaneously to open the gate, shouldn't you be waiting to kill them all at once?

 

[Strangelove]

spoiler pussy pride

we shall not be silenced

signed, king spoiler pussy

 

[Mwynn]

Maybe you guys should just stop being spoiler pussies, Lex.


And I see your -- and her -- point, Mwynn. Only a certain amount of humans would have ever existed, so, presumably, the same amount who lived at the time of the war had lived long before.

The only thing I can figure is that Barthandelus wanted the majority to be on Cocoon, so those on Gran Pulse would first need to die and be reborn on Cocoon -- but that doesn't fit the order of events either, as Ragnarok was supposed to have destroyed Cocoon back then, and it was only after and partly because of the war that the population of Gran Pulse began dying out. It was Barthandelus's intention that Etro's Gate would have already been opened before the citizens of Gran Pulse died out anyway.

The limited number of humans concept makes the Purge completely counterproductive too. If you only have so many humans to work with, and you need so many to die simultaneously to open the gate, shouldn't you be waiting to kill them all at once?

My exact thoughts. And I guess for the last part that's something the fal'Cie wouldn't know? They were unaware of a lot of things, even at the beginning Bhunivelze had no idea what the Invisible realm was like.

spoiler pussy pride

we shall not be silenced

signed, king spoiler pussy

spoiler pussy game too strong

 

[mecorx]

Is this a spoiler? I translated first two pages of the interview section in the LRFF Ultimania. Couldn't make out all the kanji in the available photographs and I didn't want to make things up, so I gave up D:.
http://mecorx.blogspot.ca/2014/01/lrff13-ultimania-interview-translations.html

 

[Arianna]

I want more information on Bhunivelze.

I realized another thing that could prove how soul and Chaos are separable. The very plan of Bhunivelze involves bringing humanity's souls in his new world and then purifying the Chaos inside them (memories, will, bonds, etc.). He also needed a new goddess which could complete the reincarnation cycle, but I assume in this process the human souls won't be given pieces of Chaos, making them ignorant and mindless living dolls.

I wouldn't say they would be "ignorant" and "mindless", because according to the story (human side, mind you) the fal'Cie and other lives didn't have souls, and I would not call them either "ignorant" or "mindless". Free will stiffled, yes, perhaps, but in no way the other two things.

I don't believe that Bhunivelze truly understood the chaos. And with what I've seen, I go back to my belief that he may very well be a child still. Life existed before Etro gave extra chaos to humanity, and I think that Bhunivelze was trying to get life back to that which he knew. Humans just sparked his interests.

 

[Strangelove]

did not realise that the 'earth[???/]' ending was a secret ending for getting the 14th day during the game

now i want to know what all these key items that have vague descriptions do

 

[Mwynn]

Is this a spoiler? I translated first two pages of the interview section in the LRFF Ultimania. Couldn't make out all the kanji in the available photographs and I didn't want to make things up, so I gave up D:.
http://mecorx.blogspot.ca/2014/01/lrff13-ultimania-interview-translations.html

Oooo thanks for this! I'll be sharing this on Tumblr and perhaps there'd be someone over there who can provide you clearer scans.

I wouldn't say they would be "ignorant" and "mindless", because according to the story (human side, mind you) the fal'Cie and other lives didn't have souls, and I would not call them either "ignorant" or "mindless". Free will stiffled, yes, perhaps, but in no way the other two things.

I don't believe that Bhunivelze truly understood the chaos. And with what I've seen, I go back to my belief that he may very well be a child still. Life existed before Etro gave extra chaos to humanity, and I think that Bhunivelze was trying to get life back to that which he knew. Humans just sparked his interests.

Oh that's true, that's a better way to put it. And yes, I agree that Bhunivelze shows much of a child's features. He was unaware of a lot of things when he exacted the plan, and the feeling he considers to be "love" is more of a shallow desire.

Speaking of Chaos and human life, I was thinking about it a lot due to Yeul's case, and especially how the party was depicted in the ending. Firstly, in the ending, they were shown as humans but they could easily transform to a soul's appearance. When someone is killed in LR in the first days you'd see a dead body (the murders) but in the last days when the humans are killed they'd disappear into thin air. By the ending I think the soul and physical body have sort of fused (as a result of the Chaos almost taking over everything), and-- note that it's been such a long while since I've read through VII's mechanics --it kind of reminds me of VII's concept where someone dies and they gradually, along with the body, return to the Lifestream.

For Yeul I showed my theory with someone and I was pointed out of a possible contradiction that made me rethink about it. If we strictly follow my explanation, there's only one human soul of Yeul. Due to her irregular nature, she's had several Chaos spirits in each reincarnation, making each Yeul different from each other. Only her pieces of Chaos could return into Valhalla's body of Chaos and they have formed a new body of existence, the Invisible Chaos. If we consider their appearances in XIII-2 in the visible world, my explanation would make total sense. However, in her appearances in The Void Beyond in XIII-2, and in Etro's Temple and the ending (Invisible Realm) in LR, we were shown multiple Yeuls taking form (at once in the ending), and this could contradict my theory.

What I think now is that because the recently mentioned settings aren't "normal" because of their strong Chaos levels, the different Chaos spirits could easily take form. The specific contradiction I was pointed out with is that in the end, Caius let one Yeul go for Noel. That strongly implies that each Yeul has their own soul. How I see it now though is that those multiple Yeuls in the end were just the Chaos spirits trying to take form (they're also covered by Chaos) because there's only one Yeul shown clearly by Caius' side. We'd hear multiple voices to represent them, but later on it would focus to just one Yeul, who I believe is the actual soul. Now the following events has Caius giving Noel one Yeul; and now I believe that the actual soul of Yeul was let go and was infused by the Chaos of the Yeul Noel knew. What was left behind in the Invisible Realm with Caius was the Invisible Chaos, the rest of the Yeul spirits. We only hear Yeul speak later on in that scene in multiple voices, the voice of the Invisible Chaos.

lord that hurt my head lmao

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

That actually makes sense.

 

[mecorx]

Hmm... from what I understand, and what is written in Fragments After, humans did not exist before the "gods". In the "Prayer and Wish" chapter, it says Lindzei created the first human, Yeul, with the blood of Etro which was left behind when she bled to death.

As a side note Etro and the other gods must all have some form of soul, as she ended up in the unseen world - Valhalla after she died. Lightning also suggests that Bhunivelze could now be wandering in the unseen world.

With regards to the nature of Bhunivelze, starting from when Lightning goes to the realm of Bhunivelze to fight him, there's a long dialogue. Not sure if anyone has translated it, but here goes?:

Hope/Bhunivelze Puppet: He saw an eternal dream. He wished that this world would continue for eternity. He fought against the one that would bring an end to this world. However, against his dreams/wishes, the world was on the verge of death. The Goddess of Chaos, Etro had been destroyed and the cycle of "power" that circulated in the world had ceased and everything became twisted. Then he realized, that the unseen power which circulated the world was what supported it.
Lightning: That was the soul, desires (想&#12356 and life of humans. The goddess took upon herself, the desires of humans who died, and gave strength to the souls of the living.
Hope/Bhunivelze Puppet: However, the Goddess perished and the cycle was broken. Because there is no longer any way to save this world, he decided to re-create it.
Lightning: The creation of a new world... He, the almighty Bhunivelze, could create any physical thing (being or object) as he sees fit.
Hope/Bhunivelze Puppet: On the other hand, what has no physical manifestation, the "soul" which is invisible to the eye, is something he can neither create nor collect. That is why he decided to leave that to another. He dispatched a servant to search for the souls that lasted for eternity. The Savior - one who takes on the destiny (job) of the Goddess and chooses souls.
Lightning: Only to choose souls? That's not all, is it? God (Bhuni) seeks to re-design me. Within this limited amount of time, from I who was had been imposed this trial of selecting souls, the God had sought. My true mission was to become the substitute for for the vanished Goddess.
Hope/Bhunivelze Puppet: *laughs* What supports the world is the cycle of life and death. Now, with the perishing of the Goddess Etro, for a new world, a new Goddess is needed to reign the great beyond of the Chaos and become the Goddess who delivers the desires of the souls of the dead to the souls of the living.
Lightning: Yeah. That's what I'll become. Not the Goddess you so desire, but the (shinigami) Goddess of Death who will defeat you.
Hope/Bhunivelze Puppet: *Laughs*
....
Hope/Bhunivelze Puppet: Behold, the new planet which is about to be born. The great many souls who seek to be reborn. Even so, the time/era of rebirth has receded into the distance. That new planet must be destroyed.
Lightning: To think you would go out of the way to create something and then already decide to destroy it...
Hope/Bhunivelze Puppet: It is what you have brought about. It is because you prevented the purification ceremony, those souls are fraught with wickedness. The new world and the souls of people shall all be melted in the flames of purification.
Lightning: And then you'll re-create the heavens and the earth as well as humans? Humans with no recollection of memories nor bonds (between each other) - humans with no past.
Hope/Bhunivelze Puppet: The human likeness/being befitting of a new world - having forgotten all grief and grudge, and possessing only genuine delight.
Lightning: Those wouldn't be humans. They would just br puppets with the appearance of humans. Bhunivelze, even in the end, God (you) has failed to understand humans.
Bhunivelze: Indeed, God is unable to see the souls of humans. It is because I admit to that, I used the bodies of these vile beings as vessels, returning this flesh body into seed, re-writing, re-creating and raising this body of unclean flesh and blood into vessels inhabitable by gods. Receive the love of God as honor. In order to read the soul of of humans and to pity them, God descended in the appearance of these miserable humans - becoming a living god who knows and feels for humans.
Lightning: I will ask one thing. That body's - Hope's soul, what have you done with it?
Bhunivelze: Have you forgotten? God cannot see the souls of humans.
Lightning: Bhunivelze. I was a bit hesitant. If it would be alright to kill you had you been the God who would save humans, is what I hesitated about. But I no longer have a reason to hesitate.
Bhunivelze: You dare to claim that God can be defeated?
Lightning: As a Goddess of Death I certainly can. That is how you have forged me.
Bhunivelze: Indeed. Savior, in order to make you the new goddess, I have given you numerous trials. Unleash that strength and face your final trial. Oh fulgent (絢&#29211 Pulse, come to me from the beyond. Oh radiant Lindzei, come to me from the depths. Oh new goddess, be blessed by the flawless light of the shining gods. I will strike you down like I am extolling you with all my power (I don't know.. someone translate this line: 全霊をもって　称えるごとくに　そなたを　打ちのめして迎&#12360. Be loved for all eternity.

Also, Yeul's soul is not made of "Chaos" which kind of dissolves and forms anew in Valhalla, but the "Invisible Chaos" which seems to retain its form and have a life of its own. In Fragments After, it was stated that every time Yeul died and her "Invisible Chaos" soul ended up in Valhalla, Etro would make another physical Yeul out of that same "Invisible Chaos"... Yet, they all feel differently from one another because of the circumstances of their lives, I guess. I screencapped some of the dialogue between Lightning and Yeul in the Etro's Temple - in which Lightning discovers that Yeul's souls are the "Invisible Chaos" - if anyone is interested in seeing:

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/xy1l9gbfhlm1qtg/7w6ljknT1u
Top folder of my current playthrough: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/pywtx2yh5r8mwry/w4doBjjYXr

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I'm confused again. My understanding was that each person's soul was made from Etro's blood, and that this was the "vessel" of sorts for the piece of chaos/spirit of each person, with Yeul being unique in that her soul/bit of Etro's blood never completely "melted," instead retaining this form which Lindzei had originally crafted.

That was a mouthful.

I then took it all to mean that each Yeul still gets her own new spirit/piece of the chaos (just like those people whose souls do completely melt), the accumulation of which eventually created the "Invisible Chaos" (i.e. a swell of chaos that is controlled by the collective chaos/spirits of all the dead Yeuls).

 

[mecorx]

I'm actually somewhat confused myself, as well... I worry about the English translation of LRFF... They'll probably end up leaving out fine details and confusing people more...

On another note, I should probably pick up the pace on translating Fragments After. Aiming to have it done before LRFF releases in NA. (In the last scene I translated, Snow falls into a time tunnel and then encounters what I believe is the "Invisible Chaos" :3.)

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

The whole FFXIII plot seems needlessly complicated and paradoxical.

 

[Mwynn]

It started with XIII-2 when they decided to broaden the story's mythological factor from XIII's tighter and narrower focus... I mean that's what I've hoped for but it wasn't executed very well... the ideas are good but it's just so lacking in the execution department.

The English translation is indeed worrying because of all this confusion with the terms, especially the "soul"... but I have not encountered an instance where I was troubled by the translation in a XIII game so I hope there won't be any big problems.

Also, Yeul's soul is not made of "Chaos" which kind of dissolves and forms anew in Valhalla, but the "Invisible Chaos" which seems to retain its form and have a life of its own. In Fragments After, it was stated that every time Yeul died and her "Invisible Chaos" soul ended up in Valhalla, Etro would make another physical Yeul out of that same "Invisible Chaos"... Yet, they all feel differently from one another because of the circumstances of their lives, I guess. I screencapped some of the dialogue between Lightning and Yeul in the Etro's Temple - in which Lightning discovers that Yeul's souls are the "Invisible Chaos" - if anyone is interested in seeing:

mmm wat lmao

(ahh what the heck. my explanation made more sense than this.)

It doesn't make sense how Etro could make a physical Yeul. Also this is now implying a person's soul is ultimately made up by just Chaos, and that Yeul's is weird and is initially made up of Invisible Chaos. huh

There should be some kind of explanation with the soul's structure somewhere because if they don't they may have ultimately fucked this one up.

 

[mecorx]

I'll take a look at the datalogs in the game some time to see if there are any explanations there.

The Ultimania is about $35 USD incl. shipping via Amazon.jp... to buy or not to buy...
The curious part of me wants to know all about all about the mythos/lore, but my wallet says its a waste of money and I should wait for scans @____@.

 

[Strangelove]

> ffxiii: aw man i wish we could learn more about the mythology
> ffxiii-2: never mind (◕‿◕&#10047

why i liked ffxiii-2, time travel as a plot element seemed to come out of nowhere. it felt different from ffxiii, which kind of puts the series as 'ffxiii, and the rest'.

anywho, here is the part from page 45 of the ultimania about etro's role that maybe explains stuff a little idk? (i admit i have skipped posts that seem to talk about fragments after until i read that myself)


The effects of Etro's disappearance

After the soul (&#39746 is transported to Valhalla after a human dies, it is given a heart (&#24515 by Etro, the goddess of death who rules this land, and is given new life--this was the cycle of souls found in the previous world. However, as a result of Etro's death 500 years prior, this flow of souls stopped. Consequently, people no longer aged and died nor gave birth to new life. Even if Bhunivelze were to create a new world, without a solution to the absence of the goddess there would be no cycle of souls to support the world.

How the cycle of souls works

1) A new life is born
↓
2) Reaches the end of life. The soul of the dead merges with the sea of Chaos
↓a (with Etro) ↓b (without Etro)
3a) New life is given Chaos (= a heart) by the goddess, and it is reincarnated
OR
3b) The souls of the dead remain merged in the sea of Chaos

 

[mecorx]

Oh, you have the book. How wonderful :3. Would love to see an actual translation of the Q&A page in section 7. Also, I would like to know where all the Anubyses come from... Since they can't go extinct.

Oh, also... Speaking of Etro's death... She had already died once before before humans were created hadn't she? Does this mean that the gods be reborn/revived somehow? I guess Caius and the Yeuls could just trap Bhunivelze in that realm though...

 

[Mwynn]

Is this a spoiler? I translated first two pages of the interview section in the LRFF Ultimania. Couldn't make out all the kanji in the available photographs and I didn't want to make things up, so I gave up D:.
http://mecorx.blogspot.ca/2014/01/lrff13-ultimania-interview-translations.html

> ffxiii: aw man i wish we could learn more about the mythology
> ffxiii-2: never mind (◕‿◕&#10047

why i liked ffxiii-2, time travel as a plot element seemed to come out of nowhere. it felt different from ffxiii, which kind of puts the series as 'ffxiii, and the rest'.

anywho, here is the part from page 45 of the ultimania about etro's role that maybe explains stuff a little idk? (i admit i have skipped posts that seem to talk about fragments after until i read that myself)


The effects of Etro's disappearance

After the soul (&#39746 is transported to Valhalla after a human dies, it is given a heart (&#24515 by Etro, the goddess of death who rules this land, and is given new life--this was the cycle of souls found in the previous world. However, as a result of Etro's death 500 years prior, this flow of souls stopped. Consequently, people no longer aged and died nor gave birth to new life. Even if Bhunivelze were to create a new world, without a solution to the absence of the goddess there would be no cycle of souls to support the world.

How the cycle of souls works

1) A new life is born
↓
2) Reaches the end of life. The soul of the dead merges with the sea of Chaos
↓a (with Etro) ↓b (without Etro)
3a) New life is given Chaos (= a heart) by the goddess, and it is reincarnated
OR
3b) The souls of the dead remain merged in the sea of Chaos

I talk shit sometimes about XIII-2's plot but I really do love that game lol

And hey, that confirms my theory! : D So "soul" is the vessel of the person's life, and Chaos is its heart.

Oh, also... Speaking of Etro's death... She had already died once before before humans were created hadn't she? Does this mean that the gods be reborn/revived somehow? I guess Caius and the Yeuls could just trap Bhunivelze in that realm though...

Well Bhuni is sort of different from Etro still, because Etro is technically just a fal'Cie goddess... hmm I wonder if you guys can find anything more about Bhuni in the Ultimania : D

 

[Strangelove]

There is a little section on Bhunivelze (it was just above the Etro one), but it doesn't really offer much in the way of new info. It was basically what you learn from the game (I still mostly finished that before I left the house because it is short and easy).

I haven't looked at the rest of the book in detail yet though.

edit; more page 45 stuff, don't think there's anything new but it's a summary of everything?

The Supreme God, Bhunivelze
The being viewed as the ruling god of the world in the mythology. Also called the glorious omnipotent god, and he went into a long slumber after creating the three gods: the wild Pulse, the wise Linzei, and the goddess of death and Chaos Etro.

During his sleep, he deems it impossible to restore the world which has been covered by Chaos, and decides to create a new world. In order to gather people's souls to lead them to the new world during the time before he awakens, he reawaked Lightning as the 'Liberator' [Saviour? idk]. According to the mythology, Bhunivelze would lead only pure souls to infinite happiness, and the souls of the dead would not be saved. This is perhaps why the Liberator was not given the power to free the souls of the dead.

The relationships of the gods

Bhunivelze
→ created: Pulse, Linzei, Etro
→ awakened as Liberator: Lightning

Lightning
→ once served: Etro

Pulse, Linzei
→ created: countless fal'Cie

Linzei
→ made out of the blood of Etro: humans

Etro
→ gave hearts to: humans

 

[mecorx]

Anyway, I'm reading the Datalogs, now... this is what I've come to (or to not) understand:
The Destruction of the Old World: The planet was slowly swallowed up by Chaos; in only a very small portion of land did time continue to flow correctly (???)

The Creation of the New World: Bhunivelze chose to create a new world because it was no longer possible to repair this Chaos-filled world. The destruction was due to one human opening the gate of Valhalla--the unseen realm which is not even visible to the gods. Due to this, the beings known as "humans" discovered infinite possibilities. Then, it was decided that man would be given one last chance. God's plan was to guide the souls 魂 of man to the new world and have them live there. As such, a "Savior" was needed to guide the souls of people to rebirth. This is because Gods who do not possess hearts (&#24515 and do not know how to handle human souls. (Soo, heart = vessel? Soul = contents?)

The Liberation of Souls: Basically, over this long period of life and some people's hearts have been "touched" (tainted) by darkness. Those people cannot be reborn and are doomed to wander in the abyss of Chaos forever. The Savior's job is to sever them from this curse. By forming bonds with the Savior, they gain the qualification to be reborn.

Unseen Chaos: The darkness that pulled Lightning into Vahalla. An unseen existence that not even the Gods can validate the nature of. "A darkness that cannot exist in this world"
(I don't know if there is a difference between Yeul's Chaos and normal Chaos anymore... maybe Yeul's Chaos just has a conscience)

Mural: The Birth and Death of Man: Valhalla is where the souls of man return to. Lindzei created all humans from Etro's blood, (Fragments After states: starting with Yeul). The souls of man are borne from Chaos and inhabit the humans created by Lindzei, using them as vessels. Therefore, after people die, they are destined to await their return to the unseen world--the Chaos of Valhalla--ruled by the Goddess Etro.

Mural: The Birth and Death of the Planet: ... Weak souls who have lost faith for God and fallen into the world of death are destined to be swallowed up by the unseen world and to drift through the sea of Chaos for all eternity--Dying abandoned by God is a curse.

"Rebirth": 神の本質は不滅のクリスタルであり、人の力で倒すのは不可能なのだろうか。
The essence of God is the immortal crystal; was it undefeatable by the power of man. [Idk, bad translation...]

Btw, they're just snippets of information that I thought were interesting.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

(Soo, heart = vessel. Soul = contents)

Is it not the other way around? With the soul being the melty part that Etro reuses after it relinquishes its current heart, and which she then gives a new one before sending it back to the Visible Realm?

Unseen Chaos: The darkness that pulled Lightning into Vahalla. An unseen existence that not even the Gods can validate the nature of. "A darkness that cannot exist in this world"
(I don't know if there is a difference between Yeul's Chaos and normal Chaos anymore... maybe Yeul's Chaos just has a conscience)

That's what it sounds like to me. All of the chaos is the Unseen/Invisible Chaos, and the Yeuls just control their bit of it, I guess.

 

[Arianna]

I still can't help but feel that Mwynn is the Invisible Chaos personified, or from it, or something. Mwynn's involved with all of this somehow, but we'll possibly never be told. I just can't see her as uninvolved, even if she's "no more" in the sense of what and who she used to be.

 

[mecorx]

I still can't help but feel that Mwynn is the Invisible Chaos personified, or from it, or something. Mwynn's involved with all of this somehow, but we'll possibly never be told. I just can't see her as uninvolved, even if she's "no more" in the sense of what and who she used to be.

It is mentioned in one of the Datalogs that the Yeuls are a transformation of Chaos. I've never actually seen Mwynn mentioned in this game ~_~.

 

[Mwynn]

(Soo, heart = vessel? Soul = contents?)

The souls of man are borne from Chaos and inhabit the humans created by Lindzei, using them as vessels. Therefore, after people die, they are destined to await their return to the unseen world--the Chaos of Valhalla--ruled by the Goddess Etro.

Supposedly it's the other way around?

Also that is confusing again.

I still can't help but feel that Mwynn is the Invisible Chaos personified, or from it, or something. Mwynn's involved with all of this somehow, but we'll possibly never be told. I just can't see her as uninvolved, even if she's "no more" in the sense of what and who she used to be.

Would be a bummer if Mwynn was really not mentioned in LR. Why introduce her name in XIII-2? There's gotta be something.