Lightning Returns: Final Fantasy XIII

[Kuja9001]

Something I've never mentioned, as much as I hate this game, I legit got emotional upon completing it yrs back. All I wanted was for my man Snow to be happy dammit!

 

[Volvatta]

I personally think it would've been more appropriate to have it as a standalone game. Like Lightning's own thing since you only played as Lightning. The ONLY FF where you played one character... ? All in all it wasn't terrible but it was random, like you're just in the clouds with Hope and it's supposed to just be your normal safe zone. Your camp? "Oh I'm done here, phew - what a day getting my White Knight Chocobo, I'm just gonna warp to some random disc floating in the clouds with a big ass TV/Screen with my buddy Hope who just stands there 24/7 with information he gets from nothing. Add to my flower that somehow reaches us....who knows how tall it is. Don't question it, it's my pad and what is just is." i like the game i just found that part strange.

 

[Volvatta]

Add to my flower that somehow reaches us....who knows how tall it is. Don't question it, it's my pad and what is just is." i like the game i just found that part strange.

Just realized that the yddrsil or whatever the flower is called had wings. So it wasn't just a super tall tree....but the randomness to that is even more questionable. Its just flies there....just...floats right there beside my Ark. Waiting for me to come back and feed it my efforts. I understand the fantasy aspect and I'm not bashing it...but things have to be somewhat practical atleast. Poor Hope just stands there...theres no kitchen or anything...no bathroom facilities, whats he just droppin dueces off the side of the disc? I know all stories and such don't need those details but i can't think of any previeous FF where there was such a low-thought area. It was very cool to be on the Ark rhough, no doubt but damn i feel bad for Hope and i just don't feel anything from it. I usually have a 'feeling' when thinking of the protagonist's 'haven or camp spot or homw or whatever'. This place was just built by a god(if i remember correctly) and its there, and thats where you go, and that's that. I like how previes entry's had stories in which we could relate more because it had back story... everything for the most part made sense. This ark and flower and who's powering it and everything is just there. And i do believe it explains a bit who built it and whatnot...but it still is hard to accept this is my spot to go when I'm not doing sh*t.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Hope just stands there in the Ark because he's immortal thanks to Bhunivelze possessing him. He definitely has no need for anything. That's why he's weird and so blank.

The Ark was the new Cocoon Hope built in 5XX AF to save humanity in XIII-2. It got repurposed into the Ark by Bhunivelze once the Chaos was released.

And the tree Yggdrasil was Bhunvelze's creation to extend the world's lifespan. Hence it's appearance and feeding off Eradia. You find all this out doing each and every quest and checking the logs you get. Also, those Lightning message/thoughts are important glimpses into her mindset. Thanks to Our World you don't see it as often unless you're doing the load screen.

And LR is technically it's own game.

 

[Volvatta]

Hope just stands there in the Ark because he's immortal thanks to Bhunivelze possessing him. He definitely has no need for anything. That's why he's weird and so blank.

The Ark was the new Cocoon Hope built in 5XX AF to save humanity in XIII-2. It got repurposed into the Ark by Bhunivelze once the Chaos was released.

And the tree Yggdrasil was Bhunvelze's creation to extend the world's lifespan. Hence it's appearance and feeding off Eradia. You find all this out doing each and every quest and checking the logs you get. Also, those Lightning message/thoughts are important glimpses into her mindset. Thanks to Our World you don't see it as often unless you're doing the load screen.

And LR is technically it's own game.

Very informative! I'm sorry id i seemed ignorant, i wasn't totally being serious. There's more to how i feel about it than what i posted. I knew some of what you had said about the story and yes i might look and seem like a total arse but in all honesty i wasn't trashing the game. I was just trying to make a funny post. An outsiders point of view you could say. I understand you are informed about it all and i understan the explanations aswell. But 1 point i will keep is i didn't feel a connection with the ark at all. As far as i remember Hope building a new Cacoon i had forgotten that was it's origin. In any case as writing geniuses at square, the concept of the tree is cool, and it looks cool and everything. I love the fact you get to do all of that, but just the presentation of it... You know? Like the Ark is coincidentally and conveniently just floating beside the tree? I just dont feel it to be special the way the gods made the tree and set it all up for us. Was beautiful playing it though the way the tree opwns up near the end. Anyway - sorry if i came accross rude, was more making a meme or a joke, a quick poke sincw i Love FF and ive played all of them (most beaten not all) but i also like to poke fun at them at times. Also i know it's kinda it's own game but what i meant was instead of a part of the XIII saga. Like just FFLR Because it is heavily suggested to be part 3 even though its not quite - i know there are some debates on that.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Well the tree is sort of just the gameplay plot device used to measure Lightning's progress in Eradia collecting/soul saving. It really only exists to give a visualization of how on point you are regarding extending your time for the world. A gameplay meter given a creative, in-universe justification.

Once the Apocalypse happens it's never seen again since it fulfilled its purpose.

And I'm not sure how it'd be it's own game outside the Lightning saga. It served its purpose and gave a fitting and emotional conclusion to the series. Yes, you only play as Lightning but it's not as if players didn't have a chance to play as other people in the series, lol. Like for a trilogy, the gameplay and perspectives are pretty varied. LR did a unique and in-depth tactical hybrid action/ATB game that really challenged the player. People knock it for the time limit and difficulty, but I never hear people say you can win just mashing 1 button or using items forever. And whether you like Lightning or not, they did what most people asked for and criticized the previous games for not doing. Delving into Lightning's character and showcasing growth and vulnerability.

The game's no joke and a unique experience that's so good it was apparently enough to inspire FFVIIR's combat system.

 

[Volvatta]

LR did a unique and in-depth tactical hybrid action/ATB game that really challenged the player. People knock it for the time limit and difficulty, but I never hear people say you can win just mashing 1 button or using items forever. And whether you like Lightning or not, they did what most people asked for and criticized the previous games for not doing. Delving into Lightning's character and showcasing growth and vulnerability.

I agree!
The combat was great and I really like playing/controlling Lightning again after XIII-2, allthough it was fun it was good to have control of her again and focus on her again. And in all honesty like i said i was more or less just joking about it. I like the saga, i really do but I'll stand by my points though...it was hard to emotionally give a hoot about some of the key elements story wise compared to other entry's in the series. That's all. When i think of Bhunivelze and think or feel anything speacial. i don't know maybe i feel (and this is a personal thought) while writing this entire series they thought so broad while writing the story, that they didn't have grounds fleshed out.

 

[Clement Rage]

It might have worked better as a standalone game featuring original characters, but I guess if it had I probably wouldn't have bought it.

In universe, the explanation probably goes something like this:

Bhunivelze thought it looked cool and didn't care if it made sense or not. Since he's God, it worked anyway.

 

[Slipstreamer]

Having owned the game since release day but never having actually played it, I decided to platinum Lightning Returns during lockdown. It was such a fitting game for lockdown - guards in Luxerion told me the daily death count (disturbingly this count was often lower than the actual daily death count here in Britain), and parts of the city were gated off at certain times (which if I recall was sometimes referred to as "lockdown" in the game). Anyway, I platinumed it a month or so ago, and lockdown has eased a bit now... I certainly won't be playing it again if there's a second wave.

 

[Lex]

I don't know if this has been posted about before, but it explains a lot of the confusion surrounding the plot of Lightning Returns (and XIII-2 also, in some ways):

https://hikamitz.tumblr.com%2Fpost%2F111425210884
It's a really good read if anyone is interested. While I understood a lot of that already, there were still a few things it really shone a light on (like what actually happens at the end of Lightning Returns, and Yeul/Caius/Etro throughout XIII-2 and LR which honestly I could never work out until I read this).

 

[Makoeyes987]

Oh yes, that post is essential reading to fully get a grasp on what the dynamics are of the universe of XIII.

Not sure why they bastardized the translation so hard. What's hilarious is the concept between heart and soul in XIII is that it sorta mirrors the exact same concept of Kingdom Hearts

Life energy = Soul
The intrinsic unique personality and emotions of a person = Heart

Which means throughout most of Lightning Returns, Lightning is the equivalent of a nobody.

And Lumina... Is her Heartless

Lightning would technically be a special nobody like Roxas. But yes. That really helps thread things together.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I knew all this and still regard the entire post-XIII plot as a muddy, self-contradicting mess. The translation gaffes made it ever so slightly worse, but that's a pretty negligible difference in result when an accurate translation still just leaves a nonsensical cluster of fuck.

 

[Lex]

I knew all this and still regard the entire post-XIII plot as a muddy, self-contradicting mess. The translation gaffes made it ever so slightly worse, but that's a pretty negligible difference in result when an accurate translation still just leaves a nonsensical cluster of fuck.

I'm not disagreeing with you, I really do feel like much of XIII-2's plot was needlessly ridiculous. That said, I've never quite gotten over how Lightning Returns as a game was received by critics and fans (although I understand why). It does some incredible things and actually (IMO) manages to resolve the plot in a pretty satisfying ending. It's also a really fun game to play, with some really thought out satisfying combat. Everyone's mileage may vary, but its still the lowest rated FF game ever released, and it's all because it happens to be a sequel to a sequel that nobody wanted.

I like all 3 games, but LR ended up being my favourite to play. This is to my own shock btw.

 

[Makoeyes987]

It's easily the most healthily challenging and difficult Final Fantasy game. FFVII Remake comes close but Hard Mode Hell House and the Top Secret boss rush still doesn't compare to Hard Mode Bhunivelze or Aeronite and Erishkigal.

And I find the XIII saga sorta analagous to the Pitch Black series. It doesn't hold your hand and just sorta pushes you into it's dense, lived-in world with intricate self referencing lore, which is puzzling yet refreshing in it's authenticity. It's hard to follow but it creates an atmosphere that's extremely unique and intriguing. The fact this alien world is so convoluted and insane while everyone finds it all completely normal amid resignation towards the lack of any birth or death speaks to how utterly fucked up this reality is. Nevermind the paradoxical nature of time travel that is XIII-2. The narrative feels more intriguing when everything is not so readily apparent.

XIII's entire saga easily wins at being one of the most distinct and memorable FF worlds because it goes hard being unashamedly against the grain and true to itself. It's aesthetic is just. So it's own and I love it.

 

[Wol]

Initially I hated the direction XIII-2 was going for, but playing the game I found it endearing how they deepened the mythos. It's a charming jumbled mess, but it felt somewhat inventive.

LRXIII is a bit less whacky, but it's one of the most imaginative FF titles. Toriyama's madness created an epic of messy proportions.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

There are things I appreciate about all three, but all three feel painfully disjointed from one another most of the time in regard to almost every constituent component. Each game manages to somehow feel like a surreal fever dream in relation to the larger FF series and each other.

That's no small feat. But I'm not sure it's one to be proud of either.

 

[Fangu]

I saw a video the other day, ThorHighHeels I believe, that something about LR that I 100% agree with, and that is that the game has style. Not costumes style first and foremost but like, the overall look and feel of the levels. It's different than the other two games in that sense. Also I read it was originally meant to be a game in a different series (sorry if that was here )

 

[ForceStealer]

I like Lightning Returns, a lot. And I agree with Lex that its poor reviews make no sense for any other reason than people letting the other two games color their perception of it.
That said, it always pretty much felt to me like a new IP that just used XIII characters because we had these models sitting here anyway. Especially the whole thing becoming an origin myth for Earth is especially out there for FF. Because of this I often wish it was a standalone title purely so that it would get more appreciation, though I don't personally mind the XIII connection.

 

[Makoeyes987]

There are things I appreciate about all three, but all three feel painfully disjointed from one another most of the time in regard to almost every constituent component. Each game manages to somehow feel like a surreal fever dream in relation to the larger FF series and each other.

That's no small feat. But I'm not sure it's one to be proud of either.

I mean that's fair. When you go esoteric and niche, you're inevitably going to alienate more than you would if you didn't. It's not everyone's cup of tea.

I saw a video the other day, ThorHighHeels I believe, that something about LR that I 100% agree with, and that is that the game has style. Not costumes style first and foremost but like, the overall look and feel of the levels. It's different than the other two games in that sense. Also I read it was originally meant to be a game in a different series (sorry if that was here )

That's very true.

I never heard that it was meant to be another game though. Where's that from? Because Kitase and Toriyama were pretty on the record over the development of LRs and why.

 

[Wol]

There are things I appreciate about all three, but all three feel painfully disjointed from one another most of the time in regard to almost every constituent component. Each game manages to somehow feel like a surreal fever dream in relation to the larger FF series and each other.

That's no small feat. But I'm not sure it's one to be proud of either.

At the exterior yes, but I thought the mythos served as the backbone that tied beautifully all three games.

In fact, it all made sense in the end, somehow.

Spoiler

Apart from Lightning and co. ending up in France, of course

 

[Makoeyes987]

Fucking loved that ending. And yeah, it's a really interesting way of setting them up in an analogue of our own world.

An interesting way of setting up "fantasy becomes reality."

Honestly I'm just glad we didn't get another Tabata ending. I'm just. Tired. Of those lol

 

[Fangu]

I never heard that it was meant to be another game though. Where's that from? Because Kitase and Toriyama were pretty on the record over the development of LRs and why.

I checked, it's the top comment on the video I mentioned, saying it was meant to be a Valkyrie Profile title. Unconfirmed, I guess.

(I couldn't figure out how to nocode the link in the 30 seconds I bothered checking )

 

[Lex]

All of these are worth watching btw

(Spoilers: the only thing she didn't like was XIII-2's ending, which I think is pretty relatable)

 

[Clement Rage]

Assuming I understood correctly, why does Barthandelus then have both emotions and a voice?

I don't think all of that was necessary info really, the gist comes through.

Must have been hell to try to translate in fairness. We have Etro's literal heart, which is not her metaphyical heart, which is different from the English concept of heart at motivation/feelings, and we've got to fit all these concepts into the same scene...

I loved XIII's worldbuilding, but then the sequel moved on and built a new world, when I still wanted to play with the old one.

Any story with 'meddling with the timestream' as its premise needs to be complicated and confusing, but the fact that all our lead characters randomly independently started time travelling got increasingly hard to credit. Just...casually abandoning all their old friends to die of old age without ever seeing them again didn't sit well with me.

LR's ending felt VERY similar to 13-1.

Spoiler

We've destroyed the old world and the god that ruled it, saved Serah and Dajh, and now have to figure out what to do in our new world now that we're free.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

Time Travel in FFXIII-2 makes sense not from Serah's point of view, but from Noel and Caius' point of view. There simply isn't anyone else left by their time for them to worry about and Yuel is dying, Caius is trying to kill Etro and Noel has no one else to be with. So he might as well go to the past to try to fix the future so Yuel isn't dying all the time and so humanity lasts into his "present". Which changes things up for everyone else in the long run.

So you have people whose pasts have been changed by something they didn't do (Serah, Snow, etc.)... who are now messing around with time to try to get a good future... and causing lots of other epileptic trees along the way. Once you know time-travel is an option to fix things, it's really hard to stop using it...