Graymouse
Pro Adventurer
What does that mean anyway? Is that your go to line now? You have repeated yourself several times. Everything you say contradicts yourself.
SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke
- Thread starter The Twilight Mexican
- Start date
What does that mean anyway? Is that your go to line now? You have repeated yourself several times. Everything you say contradicts yourself.
Enthralled
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- a dude
It made me look silly indeed. That's why you didn't reply to me posting that image of Aerith all giddy. And you admit it was just a gambit like i said the first time.
You guys are putting in a herculean effort to deny a shipbait scene. I think I can handle being told I am overthinking something with that in mind.
I repeat myself and contradict myself? I truly am a wonder.
In all sincerity I think you are trying to lambaste me out of convenience and not conviction. I suspect whatever you think is a contradiction is something like you thinking me asking you your opinion is actually my opinion, because you have done that.
Graymouse
Pro Adventurer
Alright. I got it. Ha ha ha. Good one. I guess I fell for it. I guess that picture that you put up two pages ago got me. Ha ha ha you got me.
Hook line and sinker.
Please....
insert coin and try again.
Graymouse
Pro Adventurer
Just so you know that I know, that this image is not from the article. So, nice try though.
Master Bates
Do you enjoy your life?
- AKA
- Mr. Koiwai
Cloud did not dance FOR Aerith. He danced so they can make progress with their plan (proximate cause). Aerith was there to reinforce the proximate cause, to remind Cloud that "Yoooo, boy. We've no room for your awkward ass! Get your ass out there and bust a move!" Sure, you can say that it was caused by her urging, but it was not FOR her, the same way that the Chap 3 side quests were not performed FOR Tifa, but caused by her.
Stated other way, it's FOR THE SAKE OF the quest.
Still, it was a cute scene. You can call it a moment for shippers, I guess, because shippers gotta ship. To me, it was a cute friendly bonding moment between two individuals united in a common goal. It's a connection between Cloud and Aerith, definitely. It's a progression of their relationship.
Stated other way, it's FOR THE SAKE OF the quest.
Still, it was a cute scene. You can call it a moment for shippers, I guess, because shippers gotta ship. To me, it was a cute friendly bonding moment between two individuals united in a common goal. It's a connection between Cloud and Aerith, definitely. It's a progression of their relationship.
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Enthralled
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- a dude
I am gonna go to bed so consider this a closing statement. From my point of view, and I can easily see this being erroneous, you guys were ganging up on BlankBeat for milquetoast, uncontroversial opinions about Aerith affecting Cloud's character development and romantic underpinnings to certain scenes. And many of these takedowns were just based on the personal standards of the poster masquerading as an objective judgment.
Seeing what I think is very clearly motivated reasoning get upvoted is, well, bias Id argue. BlankBeat's motivated reasoning was not well upvoted even when, as I say, their opinions would not be controversial at all for any other ship. And frankly I think the fact my own arguments were simply met with "you're overthinking it" or other much-to-pithy dismissals or mis-appraisals does little to shake this perception of mine.
And really I think you guys are alone in seeing the dance scene as just about Cloud. Visual storytelling is not a science but it constantly cutting to Aerith's reaction and establishing her as the proximate cause of it all sends a clear message.
I never said it was from the article. I said it was from the scene. And that we don't need the article to literally say Aerith to understand whose feelings are rising here. You've done something like this a few times. Misunderstood what I said and thought it was an own.
First, this sounds like semantics.
Second, how is it that the person saying the scene highlights Aerith as his immediate, obvious motivation (which is just true) is the "biased shipper" but the guy arguing it says nothing about their relationship and admits to being proudly biased for the other ship isn't?
And it literally was for her. She even tells Cloud before entering the Honeybee "if you wanna accompany me, this is how." He also does it to help Tifa but the focus throughout this little setpiece is on Aerith to reinforce them most of all. A drop of Tifa does not turn a barrel of Aerith into just a neutral compound (tortured chemistry metaphor I know).
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Graymouse
Pro Adventurer
Alright, I can see that point of view.
I got that, and I will level with you but you can use your same argument on affecting Cloud's character development and romantic underpinnings to certain scenes. And many of these takedowns were just based on the personal standards of the poster masquerading as an objective judgment on others as well. As well as you already know, it can and does work both ways.
Anyways, have a pleasant night.
Enthralled
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- a dude
Master Bates
Do you enjoy your life?
- AKA
- Mr. Koiwai
Semantics maybe, but I'd rather just call it highlighting nuance.
I looked back at my post, but I don't understand where this is coming from. Where did I call anyone a biased shipper? I said the scene can be and is shipworthy.
No, everything Aerith (and Cloud) did there was FOR the mission, hence why I called her the reinforcer of the main objective. I will not disagree the set piece is for Aerith because it is. And I just said it is a showcase of development of their relationship. And yet the primary motivation for the Wall Market Sequence is still the mission, and the proximate cause of all their actions is to make progress. This and Aerith are not mutually exclusive. They can run together. It is rather more telling on your part if you take offense in behalf of Clerith for this.
Edit: Dude, you even brought out 'bullying by numbers' and 'number of upvotes' as an issue. Don't even go there. You're starting to remind me of someone named... know what, forget it.
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Graymouse
Pro Adventurer
It was directly implied that you pulled that from the article. How else could that be interpreted. Besides, you are the one who brought up the article in the first place as evidence of your argument. Did you not?
I don't know, it just feels like such a weak argument. Like it's not a romantic scene, there are a bunch of other characters and Cloud doesn't even want to be there, also later when Barret asks him about his walmarket shenanigans he says something like let's never talk about this again.
Graymouse
Pro Adventurer
I think mostly he was talking about me. I was the one who was saying that is a nonship moment. I still stand by that but for some reason I guess I can't have an counter opinion without being called a bully.
Eerie
Fire and Blood
For this scene in particular, I think it is rather noteworthy that while Cloud is doing it for Tifa, it's Aerith who's forcing him to go through the plan - which he didn't agree with at first - and Aerith is having the time of her life there lolol. I do think it constitutes as a shippy moment for Cloud and Aerith, but I don't think he's dancing for her. He's dancing because he's not having a say in it, so I'd say he's doing it because well, he's being pushed around into doing it lol. And Aerith is a reminder that he doesn't have any other plan to enter Corneo's mansion.
This reminds me that while it's Aerith who tells him to go save Tifa and forces him to, I especially enjoyed that despite his clear desire of not wanting to leave Tifa alone, he decided to trust her until Aerith pushed him into helping her. This is the kind of things I look forward to in a ship, so I was indeed very happy to see it.
Last, let's remember that the devs purposefully put as many moments for Aerith than for Tifa, and that I don't think you can argue that some matter more than others. Both girls have the same weight in the LTD, they did that as so everyone will be pleased (and if Zack is indeed still alive and we get glimpses of his AU timeline, we may even get some Zerith scenes thrown in in the next part(s)). Let's not forget that both cloti and clerith appeal to different people, so what is going to please someone is going to completely uninterest another and vice-versa. This is the mechanics of the game. Also they clearly made the girls friends this time around, so I feel it's their way of saying "enjoy this and stop fighting? Look the girls are friends, be friends too!"
This reminds me that while it's Aerith who tells him to go save Tifa and forces him to, I especially enjoyed that despite his clear desire of not wanting to leave Tifa alone, he decided to trust her until Aerith pushed him into helping her. This is the kind of things I look forward to in a ship, so I was indeed very happy to see it.
Last, let's remember that the devs purposefully put as many moments for Aerith than for Tifa, and that I don't think you can argue that some matter more than others. Both girls have the same weight in the LTD, they did that as so everyone will be pleased (and if Zack is indeed still alive and we get glimpses of his AU timeline, we may even get some Zerith scenes thrown in in the next part(s)). Let's not forget that both cloti and clerith appeal to different people, so what is going to please someone is going to completely uninterest another and vice-versa. This is the mechanics of the game. Also they clearly made the girls friends this time around, so I feel it's their way of saying "enjoy this and stop fighting? Look the girls are friends, be friends too!"
Graymouse
Pro Adventurer
So, wait. I am truly lost and confused. That whole 1 hour conversation with this guy was because of upvotes on this forum? If that is the case that seems rather petty to be honest. I was being accused as a bully and ganging up on another person because I didn't agree about what what he was saying? So in return, This guy decided to really lay it on thick to me as payback. It wasn't a genuine conversation?
Burn the new person, he is the easiest target. I guess it is easiest to put all the blame on me.
Burn the new person, he is the easiest target. I guess it is easiest to put all the blame on me.
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Maidenofwar
They/Them
See this is why I go to bed and have scary dreams about Sephiroth and everyone being out to get me, and howling for some punishment, LTD be scary GG ?
LicoriceAllsorts
Donator
Enthralled is a new person too, Greymouse.
I thought you were more than holding your own.
You weren't wrong about this community. Nevertheless, we do enjoy a good verbal tussle from time to time. Just look at some of my to-ing and fro-ing with Theozilla, or Mako's arguments with... well, just about anyone.
I thought you were more than holding your own.
You weren't wrong about this community. Nevertheless, we do enjoy a good verbal tussle from time to time. Just look at some of my to-ing and fro-ing with Theozilla, or Mako's arguments with... well, just about anyone.
Graymouse
Pro Adventurer
I guess it does come with the territory. But all because of some stupid upvotes on comments. Is there prize that I don't know about? I don't mind being called out or singled out when we are having a normal friendly conversation but not when someone has an underlining agenda behind it. I think that is the part that I am mostly taken aback from. Oh, well it is the internet after-all.
LicoriceAllsorts
Donator
There is an award for "most liked post" at the end of the year during our "Awards" ceremony that we all take sooooper seriously 
, but I really doubt any of the posts in any of the LTD threads are going to be a contender. We also have an award for "best newcomer".
Our mods are pretty good about enforcing the rules and making sure people don't get dogpiled undeservedly, or bullied. Some of them have been here a very long time. If at any time you feel uncomfortable in a discussion or debate, just nope out. If you feel you're being bullied, the mods will help you. Of course, in this fora you have to be prepared to defend your views and opinions, but you seem to be good at that.
, but I really doubt any of the posts in any of the LTD threads are going to be a contender. We also have an award for "best newcomer". Our mods are pretty good about enforcing the rules and making sure people don't get dogpiled undeservedly, or bullied. Some of them have been here a very long time. If at any time you feel uncomfortable in a discussion or debate, just nope out. If you feel you're being bullied, the mods will help you. Of course, in this fora you have to be prepared to defend your views and opinions, but you seem to be good at that.
Graymouse
Pro Adventurer
For this scene in particular, I think it is rather noteworthy that while Cloud is doing it for Tifa, it's Aerith who's forcing him to go through the plan - which he didn't agree with at first - and Aerith is having the time of her life there lolol. I do think it constitutes as a shippy moment for Cloud and Aerith, but I don't think he's dancing for her. He's dancing because he's not having a say in it, so I'd say he's doing it because well, he's being pushed around into doing it lol. And Aerith is a reminder that he doesn't have any other plan to enter Corneo's mansion.
This reminds me that while it's Aerith who tells him to go save Tifa and forces him to, I especially enjoyed that despite his clear desire of not wanting to leave Tifa alone, he decided to trust her until Aerith pushed him into helping her. This is the kind of things I look forward to in a ship, so I was indeed very happy to see it.
Last, let's remember that the devs purposefully put as many moments for Aerith than for Tifa, and that I don't think you can argue that some matter more than others. Both girls have the same weight in the LTD, they did that as so everyone will be pleased (and if Zack is indeed still alive and we get glimpses of his AU timeline, we may even get some Zerith scenes thrown in in the next part(s)). Let's not forget that both cloti and clerith appeal to different people, so what is going to please someone is going to completely uninterest another and vice-versa. This is the mechanics of the game. Also they clearly made the girls friends this time around, so I feel it's their way of saying "enjoy this and stop fighting? Look the girls are friends, be friends too!"
That is the true beauty of FF7. It is that SE does allow wiggle room on both and sometimes all three sides of the equation and purposely leaves things ambiguous. Honestly I don't think this triangle will be solved ever. Personally, I think SE dropped the ball back in 97 when the game came out. All other FF games have the couples pretty much layed out for the player. Why did they decide that FF7 has to has to have this love triangle?
I feel that we are way too far down the rabbit hole to get an definitive answer and if SE decided to call a couple cannon, I think that would lessen the impact of the game. Even if it is or isn't the one that you thought was right. It is an interesting thought though.
LicoriceAllsorts
Donator
I think that even though the developers have their favourites, they will never, ever provide a canon answer to this question. Partly out of respect for the fans, and partly because of the way they set up the game and its relationships in the first place. Why go to all that trouble only to undercut your own work?
(IMHO the canon answer is, Cloud loved both, but one died and one lived).
(IMHO the canon answer is, Cloud loved both, but one died and one lived).
Master Bates
Do you enjoy your life?
- AKA
- Mr. Koiwai
No, they must put an end to this LTD conclusively so that my ghost will not haunt the planet once I'm finally in my grave. I don't care what it is, just end this so I can rest in peace. 
Graymouse
Pro Adventurer
I 100% agree though SE will never ever outright say it. Funny, though I lived in Japan for over 20 years and pretty much know the culture. Mostly in JRPG the Japanese audience loves a good childhood friend turned lover story. It is in a lot of anime and J Drama that I watched over the years.
I think that is the reason the Devs decided to do this out of the ordinary storyline. It is just brilliant if you really think about it. Perhaps that is why people are so passionate about this game and its world and characters.
Cloud is a two timing and in this case three timing 16 year old in a 20 year old body.
Cat on Mars
Actually not a cat
"Ganging up" lol
Yes, your peception was erroneous. BB was avoiding questions, moving the goalposts, and caught in blatant doublethinking. That's called debating in bad faith, and I'm not taking this seriously because this is for fun and I like to shitpost.
Unlike your very objetive judgement, I'm sure.
Upvotes determine the fate of your ship or something? Pfft. They're fake internet points, who the hell cares.
This isn't reddit, your posts aren't going to disappear from public view just because your opinions happen to be unpopular.
And I really think you're seeing the dance scene as just about Aerith.
WAIT.
First, you can't say "Visual storytelling is not a science" and then make that statement as a matter of fact, like it was a measurable and testable result for a science project. And second, that "clear message" is "Aerith is enjoying herself" not how a dance performance in drag implies romantic undertones.
Tl; dr: "Aerith is enjoying herself, Cloud is hating every second of it. ROMANTIC MOMENT!"
You didn't thought it through, didn't you?
Truer words were never spoken.
Graymouse
Pro Adventurer
No, they must put an end to this LTD conclusively so that my ghost will not haunt the planet once I'm finally in my grave. I don't care what it is, just end this so I can rest in peace.
So could you handle the fate if the canon couple isn't the one that you like? That is why I don't think there will ever be a conclusion to the LTD.
What is Barrets favorite line, " Ain't no getting of this train that we are on"