SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[Rose Alive]

Hello! Long time lurker here. I've been debating on whether to join or not but decided to go ahead. I don't ever post on any sort of social media, so I'm a little nervous and I'm sorry if I do this wrong.
But I've been reading these forums for years and I feel like the Lifestream respects the story the most and the people here seem level headed.

Some background for me is ff7 has been such a huge part of my life and I love it so much. As a child, I didn't really understand the story, so I rooted for Cloud and Aerith. For some reason the lifestream scene just didn't sink in. As I got older I finally understood the characters and really saw the beautiful story between Cloud and Tifa.

But now that I'm even older, I think I've become a bit jaded. It started after Rebirth and I think I lurked on reddit too much. I'm an author, and for obvious reasons I'm not going to disclose my pen name, but it's so frustrating when people don't see what's right in front of them. The dynamics connecting Zack to Cloud, Zack to Aerith, Cloud to Aerith, Cloud to Tifa . . . And then people are like "It's all up to interpretation". I think it was obvious Aerith began to develop feelings for Cloud once she realized that she shouldn't keep looking for Zack in him, but then she died. And I think Cloud, as confused as he was, loved her but wasn't IN love with her. And then the lifestream scene happened, and I imagine for him, was like seeing a sunrise for the first time. Tifa. There she was all along, what began his journey in the first place.

The park scene in remake was probably the saddest for me. Aerith building up her courage before they got there, asking if Cloud had any war buddies, and then looking into Cloud's eyes, but remembering Zack's. It reflected the scene in Aerith's house where Cloud thought about his mother, and how she was talking about what kind of girl would be good for him. Some would conclude ok it must be Aerith because this is happening at her house, but then as Cloud opens his eyes, you see the starry sky in them, reflecting the promise scene with Tifa, and the music from that scene is playing. It's gorgeous story telling. But now so many people want Aerith to live just so she and Cloud can get married and have thirty-three babies.

My spouse and I were joking last night that if Tifa ends up with Johnny, maybe it wouldn't be so bad. She'd never have a dull day, that's for sure.

 

[Maidenofwar]

So yeah I'm just going to drop this here-

New Rebirth interview dropped.

Spoiler: Info from new Rebirth developer interview

"Why isn't Crisis Core Reunion part of the Final Fantasy 7 Remake canon?" Hamaguchi: Because the remake itself is a unique world distinct from the other titles

This matches up about what some have been saying about the unknown, and Remake/Rebirth putting it's own spin on certain things.

Tabata is gone.

All bets are off.

What happens when you tell a story which incorporates more of the original team that praises how effectively they blend with the new additional staff.

Place new bets now.

 

[null]

Weeeell yeah but he also said he thinks they're being really faithful in the bigger picture. (And honestly "big picture faithful" is the phrasing they should have used all along.) Which is a shame. I was looking forward to our messiah Hamaguchi building a shining new future on the Compilation's corpse.

But... yeah lol. Distinct continuity from the other titles but still leads into Advent Children. I did the Money Pit laugh.

Edit:

 

[Maidenofwar]

Dammit null what do you mean the September links aren't true I was about to unbuckle the seat belt loose the breaks and go full throttle into the unknown and burst through the bottom of that lake

Spoiler

About Aerith, wasn't there the part where she loses pieces of herself when the whispers are encountered, I think that might mean memories. If so then I think as we head out to the grasslands and Kalm maybe Aerith doesn't remember a whole lot and is heading into the unknown as much as we are. Though I think it's silly in this day and age there has to be caveats such as Cloud has to initiate a kiss with Tifa otherwise people will say she's forcing herself on him or Cloud has to initiate the kiss with Aerith else she's *insert derogatory* term here.

 

[Stiggie]

Hello! Long time lurker here. I've been debating on whether to join or not but decided to go ahead. I don't ever post on any sort of social media, so I'm a little nervous and I'm sorry if I do this wrong. But I've been reading these forums for years and I feel like the Lifestream respects the story the most and the people here seem level headed. Some background for me is ff7 has been such a huge part of my life and I love it so much. As a child, I didn't really understand the story, so I rooted for Cloud and Aerith. For some reason the lifestream scene just didn't sink in. As I got older I finally understood the characters and really saw the beautiful story between Cloud and Tifa. But now that I'm even older, I think I've become a bit jaded. It started after Rebirth and I think I lurked on reddit too much. I'm an author, and for obvious reasons I'm not going to disclose my pen name, but it's so frustrating when people don't see what's right in front of them. The dynamics connecting Zack to Cloud, Zack to Aerith, Cloud to Aerith, Cloud to Tifa . . . And then people are like "It's all up to interpretation". I think it was obvious Aerith began to develop feelings for Cloud once she realized that she shouldn't keep looking for Zack in him, but then she died. And I think Cloud, as confused as he was, loved her but wasn't IN love with her. And then the lifestream scene happened, and I imagine for him, was like seeing a sunrise for the first time. Tifa. There she was all along, what began his journey in the first place. The park scene in remake was probably the saddest for me. Aerith building up her courage before they got there, asking if Cloud had any war buddies, and then looking into Cloud's eyes, but remembering Zack's. It reflected the scene in Aerith's house where Cloud thought about his mother, and how she was talking about what kind of girl would be good for him. Some would conclude ok it must be Aerith because this is happening at her house, but then as Cloud opens his eyes, you see the starry sky in them, reflecting the promise scene with Tifa, and the music from that scene is playing. It's gorgeous story telling. But now so many people want Aerith to live just so she and Cloud can get married and have thirty-three babies. My spouse and I were joking last night that if Tifa ends up with Johnny, maybe it wouldn't be so bad. She'd never have a dull day, that's for sure.

Basically this, people think I talk about the "LTD" because I am obsessed with Cloud and Tifa or something, when really I don't care that much. Well, I do, but I care about a lot of things and still never argue about them. There are characters and pairings I like a whole lot more but I am not out there arguing about their validity. There is only one constant in every single thing I argue about. And it's that it's always about something that I feel is just mind bogglingly obvious, and yet is somehow not accepted by people.
The smaller and less important the subject the better even, because the less important it is the more baffling it is that people don't accept it.
And rarely have I seen something that I feel is as obvious and yet as misinterpreted as the story of FFVII. And it's not about an obsession with who gets laid or one of these other attempts people do to minimize my stance and justify ignoring me. It's an obsession with the facts and themes of the story itself, which are impacted by the motivations and feelings of the characters. But then you get called a shipper and accused of being obsessed with romance, when 99% of what I am doing is explaining how this is not romance".
How is it that the people who treat this game as if it were a dating sim can accuse others of having romance on the brain? It baffles me.

So yeah I'm just going to drop this here-

New Rebirth interview dropped.

Spoiler: Info from new Rebirth developer interview

"Why isn't Crisis Core Reunion part of the Final Fantasy 7 Remake canon?" Hamaguchi: Because the remake itself is a unique world distinct from the other titles

This matches up about what some have been saying about the unknown, and Remake/Rebirth putting it's own spin on certain things.

Tabata is gone.

All bets are off.

What happens when you tell a story which incorporates more of the original team that praises how effectively they blend with the new additional staff.

Place new bets now.

I wouldn't read into this too much. Seems like a classic example of a developer saying some half thought out off the cusp remark and people treating as though it's gospel. For one it clashes with what other developers have said before. and for 2, this completely depends on what you mean by canon. Could easily be that he was thinking "well, Zack survived in remake so clearly it's not canon to the remake timeline, even though it is obviously still canon to the og timeline that remake continues on from".

 

[Rose Alive]

Basically this, people think I talk about the "LTD" because I am obsessed with Cloud and Tifa or something, when really I don't care that much. Well, I do, but I care about a lot of things and still never argue about them. There are characters and pairings I like a whole lot more but I am not out there arguing about their validity. There is only one constant in every single thing I argue about. And it's that it's always about something that I feel is just mind bogglingly obvious, and yet is somehow not accepted by people.
The smaller and less important the subject the better even, because the less important it is the more baffling it is that people don't accept it.
And rarely have I seen something that I feel is as obvious and yet as misinterpreted as the story of FFVII. And it's not about an obsession with who gets laid or one of these other attempts people do to minimize my stance and justify ignoring me. It's an obsession with the facts and themes of the story itself, which are impacted by the motivations and feelings of the characters. But then you get called a shipper and accused of being obsessed with romance, when 99% of what I am doing is explaining how this is not romance".
How is it that the people who treat this game as if it were a dating sim can accuse others of having romance on the brain? It baffles me.



I wouldn't read into this too much. Seems like a classic example of a developer saying some half thought out off the cusp remark and people treating as though it's gospel. For one it clashes with what other developers have said before. and for 2, this completely depends on what you mean by canon. Could easily be that he was thinking "well, Zack survived in remake so clearly it's not canon to the remake timeline, even though it is obviously still canon to the og timeline that remake continues on from".

I will admit, I focus a lot on romance when it's present in a story, but that's the genre I write, so I can't help but be invested in it. I just don't want this to turn into Dragon Age. Then it's not about Cloud anymore, it's about the player and how they feel. How can that line up with the lifestream scene? The night under the Highwind is a pivotal and special moment for Cloud and Tifa. I hope that's not taken away and you have to choose who spends the night with Cloud, like Aerith if she lives or her spirit if she dies. Although I will admit, an awkward night with Vincent would be hilarious.

 

[KindOfBlue]

I don’t wanna go back to the AC cast.

[ Operation Reunion disliked that. ]

And it's not about an obsession with who gets laid or one of these other attempts people do to minimize my stance and justify ignoring me.

See, maybe a story about a young man who meets a girl, falls in love with her, loses her, then spends the rest of his life dedicated to her at the expense of any other relationship wouldn't be all that bad…if that actually was the story the devs created.

 

[null]

The Hamaguchi interview is literally 100+ rapid fire questions so yeah, not much time to think about them. He did a good job with the fastballs though. I like this guy.

Here's the full thing if anyone's interested. Minor spoilers but no bombshells (assuming you trust my definition of those terms):

Spoiler: GI interview

I will admit, I focus a lot on romance when it's present in a story, but that's the genre I write, so I can't help but be invested in it. I just don't want this to turn into Dragon Age. Then it's not about Cloud anymore, it's about the player and how they feel. How can that line up with the lifestream scene? The night under the Highwind is a pivotal and special moment for Cloud and Tifa. I hope that's not taken away and you have to choose who spends the night with Cloud, like Aerith if she lives or her spirit if she dies. Although I will admit, an awkward night with Vincent would be hilarious.

BARRET DISAPPROVES -100. Now we must woo him back by spamming appropriate gifts. But not too many or he'll think we're after Marlene.

Anyway, here's how Nomura originally described his intent:

Depending on the player, it's natural for them to say, "I like Tifa. No, I prefer Aeris", so I wanted to shape things in reflection of that, or in other words, create a system that reacts to the player's feelings. For example, if the player had a completely straightforward path, I might end up with Tifa because of story-related reasons, even though Aeris is the one I like, it gets to feel something like that, so I wanted to get rid of that approach. It's not that there are branching paths, but I absolutely wanted to incorporate a mechanic that reflects the player's feelings.

So on the one hand the story doesn't branch. But on the other, it reflects how we feel? We're not really in control but it wants us to think we are. This here is the reason this god forsaken debate exists at all.

 

[Stiggie]

[ Operation Reunion disliked that. ]




See, maybe a story about a young man who meets a girl, falls in love with her, loses her, then spends the rest of his life dedicated to her at the expense of any other relationship wouldn't be all that bad…if that actually was the story the devs created.

Yeah, it's like how in Titanic we never see the person Rose marries after Jack dies. Because of that watching Rose die and going back to the Titanic with Jack is sweet.
But if we'd actually see Rose spend 70 years falling in love with another man, being married, having babies, etc, then watching her go back to the dude she knew for a night or two on the Titanic would be ALL KINDS of messed up.

Aerith getting over years of pining over Zack after a week with Cloud? Adorable if we never saw Zack
Cloud falling in love with Aerith in a week over the girl he was obsessed with all his life? Adorable if we never saw Tifa
Cloud staying in love with a dead girl rather than move on? Adorable if there were no Tifa and there were no themes about accepting loss.

These are all concepts that COULD have worked in a different story with a different context but in FFVII they're just an absolute mess. And to make sense of a mess you have to start reaching and twisting. The more content comes out the more you're having to constantly force fit the new information to fit when it doesn't do so naturally, which leads to a frankensteinian construct of a story interpretation where despite everything being sewn together nothing actually fits and everything clashes. So you get a "hero" main character who is refusing to save children because he's lovesick and is mentally abusing a girl and leaving her to take care of children so he can waste away and die to be with someone else. You get a story with gnostic themes about finding the true self, with the protagonist regaining his true self through his feelings towards the girl he's loved his entire life, and rejecting her to be with the girlfriend of the dude he was imitating.

It's just an absolute mess and it's infuriating that so many people don't seem to grasp that because they're too busy with liking the shallow superficial story of "I like this girl and I like the idea of them falling in love". It starts with "I ship Cloud and Aerith" and ends with "I hate AC because 'insert huge misunderstanding of character motivations, storylines, and themes".

 

[KindOfBlue]

At the end of the day, I think love triangle debates are pointless particularly when one party has died. Not really leaving many options there. It just so happens that there’s far more depth to Cloud and Tifa’s relationship than “welp, Aerith’s dead so Tifa wins by default.”

Just the other day, I realized in an early chapter of Remake that there are background characters arguing over outfits: a black & white one versus a red & pink one. SE knows exactly what they’re doing.

Putting an almost-kiss between Cloud & Aerith in one trailer, then putting Cloud yelling Tifa’s name in the next? Yep, SE is fully aware of what they’re doing. And I say fine, play the shiptease game as much as you want so long as it doesn’t get in the way of good storytelling.

I hope to God that the under the Highwind scene isn’t made optional. The OG was already redundant enough to me with having a low affection version which is basically the same scene only more boring. But the idea of letting players choose who Cloud spends the night with would feel like such a betrayal of character development for the sake of fueling shipping nonsense.

 

[Rose Alive]

The shiptease works for sure. The song trailer even had me going well, maybe they really are going the Cloud and Aerith direction this time. But then I remembered that for one, they brought Zack back, and I don't think it was just so he could watch Cloud and Aerith walk into the sunset together. And then there's Traces of Two Pasts, and the heavy emphasis of Tifa's feelings for Cloud in the book. When playing Remake, it might at times look more Cloud and Aerith focused, but that's Aerith's personality shining through. She's not shy about flirting with Cloud at all, even after he snaps at her to "stop acting like you know me." With Cloud and Tifa, it's at times more subtle, and very natural. They're drawn to one another, but that's their thing, that you don't need words. The amount of skinship between those two was incredible. And I adored the bar scene where Cloud flat out calls Tifa beautiful.

 

[Maidenofwar]

[ Operation Reunion disliked that. ]




See, maybe a story about a young man who meets a girl, falls in love with her, loses her, then spends the rest of his life dedicated to her at the expense of any other relationship wouldn't be all that bad…if that actually was the story the devs created.

Again, I'm just a weird but I don't see it that way, post AC (Dirge) Aerith is "a girl who is engraved on his heart for the rest of his life", if romantic, which I think, it doesn't mean Cloud has to spend the rest of his life in isolation and be a miserable burger the entire time.

Shippers make up a large portion of a fandom's content, fanfic, art, etc I'd be honoured to be that kind of shipper but unfortunately I don't have that kind of talent. Shipping isn't inherently bad you just have to remember where to draw the pixel line.

 

[Ryeleigh]

It's because THE DEVELOPERS made these choices we're at a point where, from a storytelling perspective, Aerith getting together with Cloud is extremely uncomfortable and weird, and no amount of "but in real life that could totally happen" can change that.

To be honest, I've never understood why people try to use real life to make an argument about fiction. None of it is real and almost all of it has some fantastical elements to make it more interesting, compelling, entertaining, etc. The only real arguments about fiction are: what does the text say and how is it written. So, for example, it's rather pointless to make the argument that "Aerith is allowed to move on from Zack" when by the constraints of her own story she hasn't yet moved on.

So on the one hand the story doesn't branch. But on the other, it reflects how we feel? We're not really in control but it wants us to think we are. This here is the reason this god forsaken debate exists at all.

Nah. People can make ship wars out of ships that never had a snowball's chance in hell of becoming canon. It's not the ambiguity that fuels ship wars. It's that some people become fixated on the validation of canon instead of just enjoying their ships, and it snowballs from there. It happens all the time in other fandoms too.

 

[KindOfBlue]

Aerith is "a girl who is engraved on his heart for the rest of his life"

Sadly, there’s a loud corner of the fanbase that takes a statement like that and then interprets AC as Cloud rejecting Tifa for Aerith and waiting out his death in her church so that he can be with her for all eternity.

It particularly rubs me the wrong way when influencers and people with sizable social media followings knowingly or unknowingly spread misinformation to their followers. Hell, I even assumed Cloud was the person some people describe him as, until I experienced the story myself and was pleasantly surprised that he was far from being as shallow as fans make him out to be.

Sure, as a fan, one could interpret the story that way. But that would mean ignoring statements like:

For many years, Cloud and Tifa have been holding favor for one another. Facing the impending final battle with Sephiroth, they at last confirm together their feelings of desire for one another.

“After this … I think I’ll be okay.”

Cloud was silent for a long time before he spoke again.

“Because I have you this time.”

“You’ve always had me.”

“What I mean is kind of different,” Cloud answered with another smile.

The more he realizes how happy he is living with Tifa and the children,the more the fear of losing that and regrets toward the past trouble Cloud…

“Inside, I felt one thing was for sure: Cloud and Tifa would be together. Everybody would be back home where they belonged.” - Nojima

Honestly, I’m more peeved that SE can say all this but they can’t be bothered to say a simple “Cloud and Tifa are boyfriend and girlfriend.” It would at least put a nail in that particular coffin.

Those statements have been around for YEARS and people still act like they don’t exist. I agree that shipping isn’t inherently bad, it’s just a shame that it tends to attract the worst people.

 

[Stiggie]

Sadly, there’s a loud corner of the fanbase that takes a statement like that and then interprets AC as Cloud rejecting Tifa for Aerith and waiting out his death in her church so that he can be with her for all eternity.

This is what bothers me about it so much, it's such an insulting implication that the only way someone can be engraved in your heart is if you were romantically attracted to them. It inherently sweeps so many other feelings and motivations and character traits under the rug that it just makes the "well, that sounds romantic to me" interpretation of that sentence unappetizing from the get go.

I always have think of the same quote that to me perfectly illustrates everything wrong with it.

“Those who cannot conceive of friendship as a substantive love but only as a disguise or elaboration of Eros betray the fact that they have never had a friend.” - C.S. Lewis

Lets assume for a second that "the people you romantically love" is a subset of "the people you care for". If there is a situation that only makes sense if the person is part of the group "the people you care for", but you use said situation to justify the assumption that "they're probably part of the sub-set of 'the people you love romantically'", then while that situation is congruent with the belief that they loved them romantically, the only reason to jump from the more generic group A to the more specific group B is if you somehow believe that loving them romantically is somehow more fitting. Which automatically means you are running afoul of Lewis's critique, you are undervaluing other relationships.

So yeah, I don't deny that if Cloud loved Aerith romantically that would explain why she's etched in his heart for all time, but I am absolutely appalled by the follow-up conclusion that this makes it more likely that he DID have romantic feelings for her, because that conclusion only makes sense if you believe that friendship is not true love, and that the death of friends isn't enough to etch someone in your memory. So yeah, really can't endorse that take as having merit.

 

[Maidenofwar]

Not the first time this quote has been used and I let it drop last time but, CS Lewis wasn't actually that great of a person, Surely there are better sources to pool from.

 

[Stiggie]

Not the first time this quote has been used and I let it drop last time but, CS Lewis wasn't actually that great of a person

so? I'm not sure how that would be relevant to the veracity of what he's saying, dude could literally be Genghis Khan and it wouldn't make what he said any less true. Hell, dismissing a point because you don't like the person who made it is the definition of the ad hominem fallacy. But if you want the same sentiment expressed by someone else.

“Those who cannot conceive of friendship as a substantive love but only as a disguise or elaboration of Eros betray the fact that they have never had a friend.” - Stiggie

 

[birbcode]

Kitase apparently said in an old interview it was refreshing to have a character like Cloud who "wavered between two girls." Like???

The ff7 shipping discourse is nuts but in all honesty I don't think the fans are the only ones to blame. The devs obviously contribute to it.

 

[ForceStealer]

No the shippers are responsible for their own actions. The devs leaning into a love triangle is objectively fine, since there's no reason for people to be as insane about it as they are. It's a video game.

 

[Lex]

No the shippers are responsible for their own actions. The devs leaning into a love triangle is objectively fine, since there's no reason for people to be as insane about it as they are. It's a video game.

As much as I agree with this statement, I do sort of share the frustration that I wish they'd put a final nail in the coffin one way or another. We won't solidly know until the 3rd part is over and done with.

 

[rkss]

Damn, I blocked all shipper accounts yet still get dragged back to this somehow, because of VAs' tweets.
Oh poor souls, they don't know what they are dealing with. This whole "war" is never about who loves who, imo. We're beyond that point.

Hope VAs take money and run after final part. All sane people should

 

[Stiggie]

No the shippers are responsible for their own actions. The devs leaning into a love triangle is objectively fine, since there's no reason for people to be as insane about it as they are. It's a video game.

Thing is though. When dealing with groups reactions should mostly be predictable to some extent because their constituents should average out to some degree. I doubt FFVII fans are fundamentally different from fans of any other franchise, hell, the FFVII fans are fans of a bunch of different franchises. However, those do not get the same vitriol, so if the people are mostly the same, we have to look at a different distinguishing factor to see what the cause is, which leaves the game or the way its handled. There is something about FFVII, or how it's handled, that makes it so that the reaction to it is different than with for instance FFVIII. Imo the love triangle/square in regards to Cloud/Zack/Tifa/Aerith is no less settled than the one with Squall/Seifer/Rinoa/Quistis, arguably even more so, but FFVIII has none of the problems.

Also, is it fine if it poisons the enjoyment of the franchise? Shouldn't there be some sort of moral, not duty, but impetus towards not intentionally doing things that people simply don't enjoy? And really, is it fine in general to lean into anything aside from "trying to produce the best product"? I'd argue that any effort put towards leaning into the LTD is effort not spent on simply telling the best possible story. It could be possible that the LTD happens to be the best possible story, but even then you wouldn't be leaning into it, it would just naturally emerge from you trying to tell the best story without the need to consciously exacerbate it. I'd argue that the negative reactions towards AC by themselves already proves that the existence of the LTD makes the product worse as an experience.

As much as I agree with this statement, I do sort of share the frustration that I wish they'd put a final nail in the coffin one way or another. We won't solidly know until the 3rd part is over and done with.

Imo they already have, but what constitutes final nail differs from person to person and I don't think that any nail would ever satisfy everyone.

Damn, I blocked all shipper accounts yet still get dragged back to this somehow, because of VAs' tweets.
Oh poor souls, they don't know what they are dealing with. This whole "war" is never about who loves who, imo. We're beyond that point.

Hope VAs take money and run after final part. All sane people should

Yeah, I find it very bizarre that people always assume it's just about who loves who. Or that shippers make everything about romance. Definitionally shippers usually only make 1 thing about romance while the people going "he loves both" or "the point is that you can choose" make everything about romance. If we look at Cloti in particular the entire point is that almost none of the plot is about romance, but that romance just happens to be a so called "necessary but insufficient" aspect of it that is needed to explain a lot of the Non-romantic aspects of the plot and WHY those aspects are not romantic.
The fact is that depending on whether you think Cloud loves Tifa, or Aerith (or someone else or both), you are playing a VERY different game, it's not just the same game with a random character swapped, it fundamentally changes every theme, moral, and character, involved in very fundamental ways that go far beyond just who they happen to have a crush on.

 

[Maidenofwar]

PS As said before I am Aerith fan first and foremost, I just want her to be happy, so if in rebirth/third game we see adult Aerith and Zack kiss/make up I'll accept Canon, I hope she will be happy and none of cheerleading Cloud, the grass is always greener type thing if that's the story the devs want to tell.

I doubt I'll ever feel the same about Z/A I do C/A, I didn't grow up with it, it isn't my experience, my memories, but if it's Canon in ending it's Canon, I won't ship C/A anymore, but will be happy for Aerith and if she's happy.

 

[Stiggie]

PS As said before I am Aerith fan first and foremost, I just want her to be happy, so if in rebirth/third game we see adult Aerith and Zack kiss/make up I'll accept Canon, I hope she will be happy and none of cheerleading Cloud, the grass is always greener type thing if that's the story the devs want to tell.

I doubt I'll ever feel the same about Z/A I do C/A, I didn't grow up with it, it isn't my experience, my memories, but if it's Canon in ending it's Canon, I won't ship C/A anymore, but will be happy for Aerith and if she's happy.

Man, this comment turned out a LOT longer than I initially expected.

You can ship things that aren't canon you know. In fact, I'd argue that that is what shipping really is. I never really consider myself to ship characters that are canonically together because what is there to ship? It's simply the story as it is. I see shipping as more of a wish.

Although I suppose that when something is explicitly not canon then the wish is dead as well. Regardless, I don't think that Aerith and Zack being together would invalidate the general concept off "I just like the fantasy of her and Cloud as a couple". I mean, if it did then her dying back in 1997 should have been enough to end the ship. If Aerith had lived and Cloud and Tifa gotten married with children you'd at least be able to hope for a divorce, but death is pretty definitive.

As for me, I never grew up with the idea of Aerith and Cloud, when I played it back in the day I didn't really see them as romantic as far as I remember, or at least there was no shipping or theorizing. I just played the game and took in what happened as it went a long. I wasn't as shocked as others I think when Aerith died, since I don't really remember that, what I remember more strongly is what I felt during the lifestream event and the unveiling of Cloud as "just another grunt". Young me just went "ah ok, so he loves Tifa and the whole Aerith thing was because of this Zack mix up" as a settled matter. A required plot point to get to the real brilliancy of the game; the reveal of Clouds fake persona and how his feelings for Tifa (and Aerith and zack) mixed into it, that was what really blew my mind, not that a character died, but that the hero of the story WASN'T special. It was only years later, after Advent children, and after being a bit more mature, that I really noticed the deeper story being told concerning Clouds fear of failure, ptsd, etc, and developed a deeper appreciation of the story.

Because of this I also don't consider myself to ship Cloud and Tifa, because as I see it that is simply the story of the game, I don't really think my wishes come into play. The reason I dislike the idea of Aerith and Cloud has less to do with me just wanting Cloud and Tifa to be happy together (I didn't even like Cloud when I was young), and more to do with me thinking that Aerith and Cloud being romantic just clashes with all the themes that I found so amazing about this story. It's not that it's completely irreconcilable, but near enough that the effort required to make it fit feels unseemly when compared to the elegance of how well every puzzle piece fits together without it.

Needless to say I am not a fan of the remakes focus on changing destiny and whether or not Aerith lives. I feel that the shock factor of Aeriths death has overshadowed the storyline that really made FFVII great. Although there is some merit in the idea that Aeriths death being "the twist" serves as an effective shield against people discovering what I consider to be the real twist.

I also didn't develop any special affection for Aerith until crisis core, so for me Zerith is "what I grew up with and experienced", it's Aeriths dynamic with Zack that finally made me really appreciate the character the way others did. If there is one thing I "ship", it's seeing them reunited since that's something we've never experienced, seeing Zack die in Crisis Core absolutely broke me and rather than anything to do with Cloud and Aerith that is the "what could have been" happiness that I feel was ripped away, even Aeriths bond with Cloud feels more appealing to me through the lens of him helping her come to terms with Zack, rather than it just being a romance. So after that any reunion that is blemished by complicated stuff surrounding Cloud sounds unappealing to me.

It all just makes me think "why can't we just have nice things?" I know this story doesn't have a perfect happy end, and I don't want it to, but at least it can have a fulfilling one. A resolution that gives us the satisfaction of knowing that at least Cloud and Aerith were both reunited with the people they really wanted to be with in a way that makes narrative sense and gives everyone closure. I don't like shipping happiness for 2 when I know that the story is perfectly set-up for happiness for 4.

There is just one image that always makes me flounder and wish for a happy ending, this image of the 4 of them together in happiness:

Ultimately though, I just want Aerith and Zack to both be dead and me not get what I superficially "want" anyway, since what I really want deep inside is an amazing story, and imo that story is the one where the point of Cloud and Aeriths journey together is how they help each other. That Aerith helps untangle the Cloud/Zack mystery by finding his true self, the self that always loved Tifa and whose ultimate happiness was to be strong enough to protect her. Guiding Cloud to the "promised land" by showing him that when he was himself, he kept the "promise" and achieved his wish. And Cloud, as Zacks living legacy, helping Aerith come to terms with her past (and future) by indirectly fulfilling her one wish of "I want to spend more time with you", meaning metaphorically that even in death, Zack managed to fulfill her wish through his living legacy. In some way, he managed to get back to her..... I don't know if this story was this tightly written by design or if it just emerged by lucky coincidence from a story that was never meant to be deeper than a "choose your own waifu route" game, but the story is now there regardless and I feel it is so insanely powerful and well written that I just don't want it marred by any insertion of a Cloud and Aerith romance with no deeper meaning than just "well, they just kinda like each other more than their exes", I want them to be happy, but not like that.

 

[birbcode]

No the shippers are responsible for their own actions. The devs leaning into a love triangle is objectively fine, since there's no reason for people to be as insane about it as they are. It's a video game.

Fair point. What I struggle with is the fact that: a) the devs are obviously aware of the LTD being the source of a lot of toxicity among their fanbase, b) they have the power to stop this toxicity but they don't, and c) quite the contrary, they actively fuel the dumpster fire that is the LTD.

The LTD was bad enough when Zack was dead, now they decide to resurrect him and make things worse, and by worse I mean take the TGA trailer for example. There was absolutely no need for them to show Zack kneeling by an unconscious Aerith and then immediately transition to Cloud and Aerith's Gold Saucer date.

If that's not fueling the LTD I don't know what is.