SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[Maidenofwar]

I'm sorry Aerith isn't quite awful enough for some, Red XIII isn't either, still a great character though.

The novels show Aerith makes mistakes just fine, and those actions have consequences, such as nearly being assaulted when she runs away from home, using a name that wasn't hers, etc, and that she shows emotions such as pettiness and jealousy. She's not any different from Tifa in that regard.

 

[Rose Alive]

No one is attacking Aerith. It's just been pointed out that compared to the other characters, she comes across as a bit of a Mary Sue.

 

[Maidenofwar]

You could argue that but then Tifa's interrupting Cloud and Aerith's conversation in Shinra Tower has also been removed and in ToP Aerith and Tifa agree to share the burden of Cloud's past so Tifa alone isn't carrying the blame. It could be possibly argued Aerith has been glossed over since the OG, but that also applies to the other characters.

I don't agree the OG Aerith is completely gone, she curses in Remake.

 

[Stiggie]

I'm sorry Aerith isn't quite awful enough for some, Red XIII isn't either, still a great character though.

The novels show Aerith makes mistakes just fine, and those actions have consequences, such as nearly being assaulted when she runs away from home, using a name that wasn't hers, etc, and that she shows emotions such as pettiness and jealousy. She's not any different from Tifa in that regard.

If the issue is "Aerith in remake", then bringing up Aerith in other material isn't really relevant. You might as well point at Aeriths behavior in the OG as evidence that she's not perfect. I know she's not, which is why it bothers me that Remake in particular portrays her as such. To the point where she randomly gets skills such as being a Picasso at murals and now in Rebirth apparently being an amazing singer.

Red XIII, despite having a fraction of the screen time and being less of a focal character has already shown to be quick tempered, prone to aggression, and childish. Tifa is straight up a terrorist. But more than that neither is ever portrayed as a heavenly savior. It doesn't just require bad characteristics, but an exaggeration of positive ones, and corroborative stuff like "everyone instantly liking the character even though they have no reason to".

 

[null]

AC Aerith is a Mary Sue. She's the magic solution to every problem. Get exploded? No problem! Caught a terminal Lifestream illness? Gotcha covered! They even had to write Lifestream White to explain why she didn't prevent the movie from happening in the first place (because she just decided not to say anything to Cloud...seriously)

At least Remake Aerith isn't pulling powers out of her flower bed to BS everyone's problems away. (Yet, anyway.)

I don't know. Anyone can like or dislike a character for any reason. I just think flaws are one method out of many for writers to make a character interesting, and comparing flaws is a race to the bottom. Personally, I'm not particularly moved by Cloud blaming himself for problems completely outside of his control. Or how he keeps managing to defeat an all-powerful villain who needs plot induced stupidity to keep losing. But... I love Cloud. He's awesome. And iconic.

 

[KindOfBlue]

I think stuff like Aerith dropping a swear word is meant to make her look cute and endearing to the audience, not to make her seem like a flawed person…like when I think of flaws, I don't exactly think of stuff like “such-and-such person is too cute”, “too generous”, “too caring” etc. almost sounds like humblebragging lol

 

[Stiggie]

Or how he keeps managing to defeat an all-powerful villain who needs plot induced stupidity to keep losing

This bothers me as well.

 

[birbcode]

AC Aerith is a Mary Sue. She's the magic solution to every problem. Get exploded? No problem! Caught a terminal Lifestream illness? Gotcha covered! They even had to write Lifestream White to explain why she didn't prevent the movie from happening in the first place (because she just decided not to say anything to Cloud...seriously)

At least Remake Aerith isn't pulling powers out of her flower bed to BS everyone's problems away. (Yet, anyway.)

I don't know. Anyone can like or dislike a character for any reason. I just think flaws are one method out of many for writers to make a character interesting, and comparing flaws is a race to the bottom. Personally, I'm not particularly moved by Cloud blaming himself for problems completely outside of his control. Or how he keeps managing to defeat an all-powerful villain who needs plot induced stupidity to keep losing. But... I love Cloud. He's awesome. And iconic.

"plot-induced stupidity" is a great way to describe it.

Like, losing to Cloud once or twice due to your gigantic planet-sized ego makes sense. But three times? Really? Three times in a row??

My man Sephiroth's got some serious introspection to do while he's floating around in the lifestream.

Also begging Nojima to free him from this plot-induced stupidity.

 

[Rose Alive]

There are some really sweet moments from the state of play. My favorite was Zack holding Aerith and telling her that he's back. It also shows a little of the Cloud and Tifa date.

 

[frosty]

So my key take aways from the latest trailer

Aerith gets to fall on Cloud
Tifa gets to fall on Cloud
Sephiroth gets to hug Cloud

All is equal, all is well, all will be fan serviced appropriately

 

[Shadowfox]

She always had this disney princess vibe, with the perfect house in the slums and what not, but in the original she very much felt like "just a girl", she was uncertain, silly, sometimes rude.

Just a bit of a tangent here, but what you said jogged my memory a little of the typical fan view of Aeris/th in the OG in 1997, where any discussion or portrayal of her character (whether in the newsgroups, or fanfic, or whatever) was that she was angelic, divine, and pure. Even in the anime newsgroups I'd frequented, there would often be threads about voice acting for FFVII, and fans were almost unanimous in saying that Aeris's VA should be Kikuko Inoue, who back then was most well known for voicing Belldandy in "Oh, My Goddess!" and Kasumi Tendo in "Ranma 1/2", two of the most pure-hearted and angelic female anime characters around.

I do agree that there was more to OG Aerith than that, but it always seemed to me that the things that made her more nuanced and human were overshadowed by the image of her as a healer/white mage who died in prayer, and so it was much easier for people to think of her as a pure, innocent maiden.

 

[Rose Alive]

So my key take aways from the latest trailer

Aerith gets to fall on Cloud
Tifa gets to fall on Cloud
Sephiroth gets to hug Cloud

All is equal, all is well, all will be fan serviced appropriately

All equal indeed. They said if you play your cards right, some characters that weren't available for the OG Gold Saucer date will be this time.
Please give me Vincent. Please give me Vincent....

 

[Stiggie]

Just a bit of a tangent here, but what you said jogged my memory a little of the typical fan view of Aeris/th in the OG in 1997, where any discussion or portrayal of her character (whether in the newsgroups, or fanfic, or whatever) was that she was angelic, divine, and pure. Even in the anime newsgroups I'd frequented, there would often be threads about voice acting for FFVII, and fans were almost unanimous in saying that Aeris's VA should be Kikuko Inoue, who back then was most well known for voicing Belldandy in "Oh, My Goddess!" and Kasumi Tendo in "Ranma 1/2", two of the most pure-hearted and angelic female anime characters around.

I do agree that there was more to OG Aerith than that, but it always seemed to me that the things that made her more nuanced and human were overshadowed by the image of her as a healer/white mage who died in prayer, and so it was much easier for people to think of her as a pure, innocent maiden.

Oh yeah, Aerith always suffered from obsessive fan-perceptions imo, which makes it extra annoying that SE seemingly has either decided to lean into that, or have legitimately convinced themselves that the pure angelic Aerith was always who she was.

 

[ForceStealer]

Oh yeah, Aerith always suffered from obsessive fan-perceptions imo, which makes it extra annoying that SE seemingly has either decided to lean into that, or have legitimately convinced themselves that the pure angelic Aerith was always who she was.

I don't know how you could look at Remake and think that's what SE has decided who she is.

 

[Yumelinh]

We're less than a month away from seeing this thread blowing up again. Hope everyone is ready

 

[Ryushikaze]

I love that they specify that your choices influence how your companions feel about Cloud, not the other way around.

 

[Rose Alive]

I love that they specify that your choices influence how your companions feel about Cloud, not the other way around.

This was a relief to me as well. Now there can't be any "my Cloud liked this person more than this person". It stays true to the relationship mechanic while not taking away from Cloud's feelings and the highly anticipated lifestream scene.

 

[Stiggie]

I love that they specify that your choices influence how your companions feel about Cloud, not the other way around.

Well, it was the same in the OG really. People always talk about the date as if it's Clouds doing, but it's the companions affection that gets modified, not Clouds, and they're the ones who arrive at his room at take him out, he just goes along for the ride. I wouldn't read too much into that wording though.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Well, it was the same in the OG really. People always talk about the date as if it's Clouds doing, but it's the companions affection that gets modified, not Clouds, and they're the ones who arrive at his room at take him out, he just goes along for the ride. I wouldn't read too much into that wording though.

I know it was the same in the OG, but SE is being explicit about it this time.

 

[Yumelinh]

Yeah! It was like this in the OG, but I agree that it's very good that they're being more explicit about it. Before I started lurking around FF forums, I always assumed it was the other way around (i.e., that our choices impact what Cloud felt about his companions) because that's normally how it goes in other games.

 

[Rose Alive]

 

[Ryushikaze]

Yeah! It was like this in the OG, but I agree that it's very good that they're being more explicit about it. Before I started lurking around FF forums, I always assumed it was the other way around (i.e., that our choices impact what Cloud felt about his companions) because that's normally how it goes in other games.

Is it, really? Most dating games start from an assumption that it's the MC that needs to pursue the eligible ladies (and dudes where applicable) by earning their approval with MC's interest taken as a given and that's the mold the devs were leaning on to leverage your assumptions from.
As Rose Alive helpfully demonstrated, even in non-dating games with romance elements, it's the companion's opinions you're swaying, not the main character.
I stand by my analogy that the affection mechanic is in essence a great big shell game, there to keep you slightly off balance and to set you up for the rug pull moments later in the game.

 

[Stiggie]

Is it, really? Most dating games start from an assumption that it's the MC that needs to pursue the eligible ladies (and dudes where applicable) by earning their approval with MC's interest taken as a given and that's the mold the devs were leaning on to leverage your assumptions from.
As Rose Alive helpfully demonstrated, even in non-dating games with romance elements, it's the companion's opinions you're swaying, not the main character.
I stand by my analogy that the affection mechanic is in essence a great big shell game, there to keep you slightly off balance and to set you up for the rug pull moments later in the game.

I don't think you're correct there. I don't think that in dating games that the MC's interest is a given. Sometimes it's a given FOR the girl you are pursuing, yes, but not for the other candidates and since all candidates start at the same location naturally the MC is assumed to not be in love with any of them at the start. There there is often a clear arc where they slowly fall in love with the person, the only true given is that THE PLAYER wants the main character to be interested in the girl they are pursuing.

But usually the point is that the actions you as a player choose show romantic interest in a particular girl, making it seem like "a given", but like Yumelinh said it's really our choices that push our character in a certain direction.

FFVII is a little more complicated. In case of FFVII, Cloud is in love with Tifa, that is a given, because regardless of the future, the past doesn't change, and the past is that Cloud is in love with Tifa. Aerith meanwhile is in love with Zack for the same reason. This means that there are already a bunch of dynamics rather than starting from zero. Cloud already loves Tifa, so courting her shouldn't change that, but it might make him more comfortable around her which changes their relationship. Tifa already has a crush on Cloud but probably has further to grow and since she's not braindamaged any assertive actions would have to come from her. Meaning that her state of mind is most important for her relationship with Cloud, Tifa essentially could have Cloud any time she wants as long as she goes for it.

For Aerith it's different, she'd need to both fall in love with Cloud over Zack, but also switch Cloud from loving Tifa to loving her before she would even be able to make a move. So from a gameplay perspective that's more akin to the traditional romance game where both characters need to reach a certain point I'd say, but since Cloud already loves Tifa I can't say that him acting favorably towards Aerith would reflect his "given affection" for Aerith. I think it would just be Cloud doing stuff, Aerith growing fond of him, and those interactions then retroactively making him grow more fond of her. It's also complicated ofcourse by us not knowing to what degree Cloud is aware of his feelings for Tifa.

 

[Ryushikaze]

I think you misunderstand me, Stiggie. I never said FF7 is doing the same thing as a dating sim or that Cloud is acting like a dating sim protag. I said FF7 is leveraging the expectations of dating sims where the MC's interest is taken as given (in that if you can engage in the otome mechanics with a potential partner the MC will not suddenly decide he's not into the girl at the end of the route) to mess with the player because FF7 is playing with the player at the start. You're right, it's decided things from the beginning, but it, at least the OG, doesn't want you realizing that. So it plays a little song and dance to keep you a little off balance so that you don't understand the full importance of them until later.

So you're right, FF7 is different. That's my assertion as well. You have no say in Cloud's emotions. You have a limited sway in how the party feels about Cloud before his mind snaps and his shell persona breaks, and that's a different Persona that Cloud scrabbled together to deal with his trauma and keep himself moving. And even then all of that is actually there to distract you before the game hits you with the big punches.

 

[null]

I like the new dialogue wheel. You say the obvious things, you do the obvious quests, you get the obvious sex in the engine room before the final battle. Or just go on a classy date at the Silversun Strip I mean Gold Saucer. Whatever. The point is, there are no decent intergalactic dating services. To have a shot at romance, you need to talk to people.