SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[Stiggie]

Yeah she said point blank on the gondola that she saw Zack in him at first. But she also said she knows there’s a difference between them and she’s searching for the real Cloud now. It’s not like she’s unconsciously using Cloud as a stand-in or a rebound.

Having said that, yeah she’s totally not over Zack and Remake is gonna get mileage out of that.

I argue that Aeriths character arc is wedged in between her two dates with Cloud. Which is why despite being a Cloti, if I had to make 1 date canon, I would have chosen the Aerith date, since it's essentially the last stop of her character arc, while with Tifa it's merely a halfway point that hints at where she needs to go.

Aerith talks about Zack during both dates (which was always a bad omen for Cleriths tbh). The first date sets up that she's not over him and that het "interest" in Cloud isn't about Cloud, it's about Zack. She's not even in love, just trying to figure out what happened to Zack, and using him as a stand-in. Even if she feels anything for Cloud it's mostly her projecting her feelings for Zack onto Cloud.

The second date is the resolution. Through traveling with Cloud she's come to terms with the past, she now regretfully accepts that Zack is gone, and that Cloud isn't him. I think this is sort of genuine, and that this really is the point where she stops looking at Cloud as a Zack stand-in, and starts trying to look at Cloud for Cloud. And wanting to meet the real Cloud. If Clerith were a thing, this is where it would start. Immediately after this she asks cait sith about the future, further signaling this change in zeitgeist, she's now really looking forward, not back.
But then she gets beaten up by Cloud, realizes she's not the one who can help him, and then she gets skewered.
Which means that while there may have been some hypothetical potential with Cloud, the whole point is that we'll never know if that's the case, and that DURING FFVII (or 99% of it), her bond with Cloud was about Zack. They weren't falling in love, she was getting over Zack, the actually falling for Cloud stuff never really materialized.

From a larger perspective the first date with Cloud is also the trigger for Aerith finally "moving on in life" in general, she stops hiding underneath the city. Then the second date signals her acceptance of her duty as an ancient. Both signal a major change in direction in her thinking and growth in maturity.

 

[Ruri]

I've tried reading this several times but I'm not sure what you're talking about so I find it hard to really decide how to respond.
He's not talking about 2 time periods, he's just talking about Clouds issues separate from the events of ACC, which yes, start before ACC and potentially extend past it, but are still just one time period. Unless you mean the second period are the events of ACC specifically when he's talking about Sephiroth and Geostigma, in which case I agree but that's kind of the point, the issues weren't Geostigma and Sephiroth, the quote is trying to look at them separately.

I don't know where you're getting the "rub out the compatibility" part from, there is nothing to rub out, compatibility is never even mentioned, nor is it in any way relevant.

The reason he's mulling over Love and marriage is because this is a love/marriage situation, again, I don't see how this is relevant in any way aside from highlighting that Cloud and Tifa are romantic.

I suspect you're making a mistake that I often see people making, which is treating quotes as though they're hints.
People often treat quotes as "word of god", as though canon is some elaborate puzzle that the developers want you to figure out and every quote is a perfectly accurate, immaculately sculpted puzzle piece where each word was carefully chosen for us to pontificate over. It's not, most quotes are just spur of the moment ramblings that can give you a vague idea of the mindset of the person at that time. When I write something I edit and reword it a dozen times over to iron out stuff that could be misinterpreted or didn't quite come out the way I wanted it, and yet I am STILL constantly misinterpreted. Interview quotes by people who are not even shippers are about a thousand times more inaccurate.

The reason he's saying these words is simply more generic, it's just because Cloud is going through issues, and he's just kinda speculating this way and that. Who even knows what "maybe with Aerith it could have worked out" even means? Maybe it just means "ehh, maybe Aerith could have helped him get through it better since she's good at getting people to open up", which isn't any more of a testament to her compatibility as a romantic partner as my sessions with my psychiatrist mean that I should be dating him instead of my girlfriend. Or maybe it meant "maybe he wouldn't have been as messed up if Aerith hadn't died". We don't know, but no version of this quote is even CLOSE to touching on the innate compatibility of Cloud and Tifa as a romantic couple.

Same thing about the Denzel and Marlene stuff, just more "in the moment" speculations. For one Clouds issues were (mostly) solved in ACC so this part of the quote is already not very useful, and if you think that this quote is proof that the issues persevere in their current form post ACC then I refer you back to my point earlier about not using in the moment quotes as well thought out, perfectly articulated, puzzle pieces. But either way it sounds like nothing more than either a generic remark that if Geostigma and Sephiroth hadn't happened that perhaps Denzel and Marlene could have helped them work through Clouds issues (not them staying together for the kids or something like that), or else an equally generic remark about all the dozens of potential versions of this story where Clouds issues weren't solved during ACC. The entire quote is just taking Clouds issues and generally separating them from the concrete events in ACC and addressing them from the lens of a traditional domestic issue, and all of them say the same thing "Ehh, Cloud is working through mental health issues, who really knows how different events could have impacted that."

I just don't get what you're trying to say here, I see nothing bad or even remarkable about this quote when it comes to Cloud and Tifa, it's such a nothing burger I do not get why people think it's noteworthy.

For one who struggled to understand what I was talking about and didn't know how to respond, that is a long and elaborated response. I will agree to disagree with you here, but I am one C/T shipper who is not about to lay down and agree with this interperation of the quote.

He's not talking about 2 time periods

He literally is, he directs the context of his quote to two time periods. He specifically points out for Episode Tifa (between OG & AC) and then moves on to mention post ACC. That IS two time periods where plot is all concerned. Also Marlene and Denzel can't help a Cloud and Tifa that aren't together (AC) and hence his quote being directed after all those events are over. It's literally in the quote, I don't know why you are claiming it isn't.

The reason he's saying these words is simply more generic, it's just because Cloud is going through issues, and he's just kinda speculating this way and that. Who even knows what "maybe with Aerith it could have worked out" even means?

I'm going to gander this is hard for you to understand as, as I have argued for, you are disecting his quote incorrectly. If it's read as a compatibility issue/who fits best with Cloud -if the former sounds too harsh to you- then it's very easy to undertstand.

You are denying two time period context, while it sits there in the quote, and instantly waving away the Aerith comment while claiming it's too vague for you to understand. It's really not. I find you are butchering this quote to pieces to twist it to Cloud's AC trauma. Your denial of understanding why Aerith is part of the conversation is particularly not convicing me of your argument either.

and if you think that this quote is proof that the issues persevere in their current form post ACC

I don't need to refer to any of your quote nor is your thick coating of C/T is a romantic partnership neccesary. Here, refer back to my quote:

This is what sucks about this quote, the ultimania quotes and the post ACC credits scene exist to say this isn't what Cloud does at all. The correct interpretation would be that Cloud and Tifa do work out but these developers are utter chickens. I like what someone said earlier on this board, that we have all the ultimania quotes but they can't just outright say Cloud and Tifa are boyfriend and girlfriend. Alas, two more games to go.

 

[Stiggie]

For one who struggled to understand what I was talking about and didn't know how to respond, that is a long and elaborated response. I will agree to disagree with you here, but I am one C/T shipper who is not about to lay down and agree with this interperation of the quote.



He literally is, he directs the context of his quote to two time periods. He specifically points out for Episode Tifa (between OG & AC) and then moves on to mention post ACC. That IS two time periods where plot is all concerned. Also Marlene and Denzel can't help a Cloud and Tifa that aren't together (AC) and hence his quote being directed after all those events are over. It's literally in the quote, I don't know why you are claiming it isn't.



I'm going to gander this is hard for you to understand as, as I have argued for, you are disecting his quote incorrectly. If it's read as a compatibility issue/who fits best with Cloud -if the former sounds too harsh to you- then it's very easy to undertstand.

You are denying two time period context, while it sits there in the quote, and instantly waving away the Aerith comment while claiming it's too vague for you to understand. It's really not. I find you are butchering this quote to pieces to twist it to Cloud's AC trauma. Your denial of understanding why Aerith is part of the conversation is particularly not convicing me of your argument either.



I don't need to refer to any of your quote nor is your thick coating of C/T is a romantic partnership neccesary. Here, refer back to my quote:

Yeah, I'm sorry, nothing you just said seems remotely reasonable to me.

 

[Ruri]

Yeah, I'm sorry, nothing you just said seems remotely reasonable to me.

That's fine, I have a likewise reaction to your take on the quote so we'll agree to part ways on it.

To more uplifting discussion, 24 days(?) left and SoP tomorrow! Here's to more ship teasing that SE loves so much.

 

[Maidenofwar]

According to EC Aerith can't bake ( well isn't that good at it)!, leaning into the she's not the best/perfect at everything angle again. Cloud seemed to think it was fine anyway though. On that subject C/A portion of EC Valentines event was super cute, Cloud was proactive, into it, positive and encouraging, while with Yuffie he made it clear he wasn't interested. Of course she is adorable, but she's just a kid, and Cloud makes it clear he's not falling for her antics. C/T section will be soon (I think Tifa can bake but worries she can't keep plants alive, while it's opposite for Aerith lol) Anyway there should be some content for CT, because it is a LT/I think SE sees them both as valid ships when it comes to and feeding shippers

 

[KindOfBlue]

If she has insecurities then she's not perfect

According to EC Aerith can't bake ( well isn't that good at it)!, leaning into the she's not the best/perfect at everything angle again.

Yet the complaints about characters not having imperfections, while simultaneously being unable to accept those imperfections.

Because next to other characters who make mistakes that have deep consequences in the story like Cloud, Tifa, or Barret, Aerith feeling too lonely or not being able to bake is really mild by comparison…I certainly wouldn’t look at somebody like that and think that person is “flawed” if those are the only things “wrong” with them

 

[Maidenofwar]

I'm sorry Aerith isn't quite awful enough for some, Red XIII isn't either, still a great character though.

The novels show Aerith makes mistakes just fine, and those actions have consequences, such as nearly being assaulted when she runs away from home, using a name that wasn't hers, etc, and that she shows emotions such as pettiness and jealousy. She's not any different from Tifa in that regard.

 

[Rose Alive]

No one is attacking Aerith. It's just been pointed out that compared to the other characters, she comes across as a bit of a Mary Sue.

 

[Maidenofwar]

You could argue that but then Tifa's interrupting Cloud and Aerith's conversation in Shinra Tower has also been removed and in ToP Aerith and Tifa agree to share the burden of Cloud's past so Tifa alone isn't carrying the blame. It could be possibly argued Aerith has been glossed over since the OG, but that also applies to the other characters.

I don't agree the OG Aerith is completely gone, she curses in Remake.

 

[Stiggie]

I'm sorry Aerith isn't quite awful enough for some, Red XIII isn't either, still a great character though.

The novels show Aerith makes mistakes just fine, and those actions have consequences, such as nearly being assaulted when she runs away from home, using a name that wasn't hers, etc, and that she shows emotions such as pettiness and jealousy. She's not any different from Tifa in that regard.

If the issue is "Aerith in remake", then bringing up Aerith in other material isn't really relevant. You might as well point at Aeriths behavior in the OG as evidence that she's not perfect. I know she's not, which is why it bothers me that Remake in particular portrays her as such. To the point where she randomly gets skills such as being a Picasso at murals and now in Rebirth apparently being an amazing singer.

Red XIII, despite having a fraction of the screen time and being less of a focal character has already shown to be quick tempered, prone to aggression, and childish. Tifa is straight up a terrorist. But more than that neither is ever portrayed as a heavenly savior. It doesn't just require bad characteristics, but an exaggeration of positive ones, and corroborative stuff like "everyone instantly liking the character even though they have no reason to".

 

[null]

AC Aerith is a Mary Sue. She's the magic solution to every problem. Get exploded? No problem! Caught a terminal Lifestream illness? Gotcha covered! They even had to write Lifestream White to explain why she didn't prevent the movie from happening in the first place (because she just decided not to say anything to Cloud...seriously)

At least Remake Aerith isn't pulling powers out of her flower bed to BS everyone's problems away. (Yet, anyway.)

I don't know. Anyone can like or dislike a character for any reason. I just think flaws are one method out of many for writers to make a character interesting, and comparing flaws is a race to the bottom. Personally, I'm not particularly moved by Cloud blaming himself for problems completely outside of his control. Or how he keeps managing to defeat an all-powerful villain who needs plot induced stupidity to keep losing. But... I love Cloud. He's awesome. And iconic.

 

[KindOfBlue]

I think stuff like Aerith dropping a swear word is meant to make her look cute and endearing to the audience, not to make her seem like a flawed person…like when I think of flaws, I don't exactly think of stuff like “such-and-such person is too cute”, “too generous”, “too caring” etc. almost sounds like humblebragging lol

 

[Stiggie]

Or how he keeps managing to defeat an all-powerful villain who needs plot induced stupidity to keep losing

This bothers me as well.

 

[birbcode]

AC Aerith is a Mary Sue. She's the magic solution to every problem. Get exploded? No problem! Caught a terminal Lifestream illness? Gotcha covered! They even had to write Lifestream White to explain why she didn't prevent the movie from happening in the first place (because she just decided not to say anything to Cloud...seriously)

At least Remake Aerith isn't pulling powers out of her flower bed to BS everyone's problems away. (Yet, anyway.)

I don't know. Anyone can like or dislike a character for any reason. I just think flaws are one method out of many for writers to make a character interesting, and comparing flaws is a race to the bottom. Personally, I'm not particularly moved by Cloud blaming himself for problems completely outside of his control. Or how he keeps managing to defeat an all-powerful villain who needs plot induced stupidity to keep losing. But... I love Cloud. He's awesome. And iconic.

"plot-induced stupidity" is a great way to describe it.

Like, losing to Cloud once or twice due to your gigantic planet-sized ego makes sense. But three times? Really? Three times in a row??

My man Sephiroth's got some serious introspection to do while he's floating around in the lifestream.

Also begging Nojima to free him from this plot-induced stupidity.

 

[Rose Alive]

There are some really sweet moments from the state of play. My favorite was Zack holding Aerith and telling her that he's back. It also shows a little of the Cloud and Tifa date.

 

[frosty]

So my key take aways from the latest trailer

Aerith gets to fall on Cloud
Tifa gets to fall on Cloud
Sephiroth gets to hug Cloud

All is equal, all is well, all will be fan serviced appropriately

 

[Shadowfox]

She always had this disney princess vibe, with the perfect house in the slums and what not, but in the original she very much felt like "just a girl", she was uncertain, silly, sometimes rude.

Just a bit of a tangent here, but what you said jogged my memory a little of the typical fan view of Aeris/th in the OG in 1997, where any discussion or portrayal of her character (whether in the newsgroups, or fanfic, or whatever) was that she was angelic, divine, and pure. Even in the anime newsgroups I'd frequented, there would often be threads about voice acting for FFVII, and fans were almost unanimous in saying that Aeris's VA should be Kikuko Inoue, who back then was most well known for voicing Belldandy in "Oh, My Goddess!" and Kasumi Tendo in "Ranma 1/2", two of the most pure-hearted and angelic female anime characters around.

I do agree that there was more to OG Aerith than that, but it always seemed to me that the things that made her more nuanced and human were overshadowed by the image of her as a healer/white mage who died in prayer, and so it was much easier for people to think of her as a pure, innocent maiden.

 

[Rose Alive]

So my key take aways from the latest trailer

Aerith gets to fall on Cloud
Tifa gets to fall on Cloud
Sephiroth gets to hug Cloud

All is equal, all is well, all will be fan serviced appropriately

All equal indeed. They said if you play your cards right, some characters that weren't available for the OG Gold Saucer date will be this time.
Please give me Vincent. Please give me Vincent....

 

[Stiggie]

Just a bit of a tangent here, but what you said jogged my memory a little of the typical fan view of Aeris/th in the OG in 1997, where any discussion or portrayal of her character (whether in the newsgroups, or fanfic, or whatever) was that she was angelic, divine, and pure. Even in the anime newsgroups I'd frequented, there would often be threads about voice acting for FFVII, and fans were almost unanimous in saying that Aeris's VA should be Kikuko Inoue, who back then was most well known for voicing Belldandy in "Oh, My Goddess!" and Kasumi Tendo in "Ranma 1/2", two of the most pure-hearted and angelic female anime characters around.

I do agree that there was more to OG Aerith than that, but it always seemed to me that the things that made her more nuanced and human were overshadowed by the image of her as a healer/white mage who died in prayer, and so it was much easier for people to think of her as a pure, innocent maiden.

Oh yeah, Aerith always suffered from obsessive fan-perceptions imo, which makes it extra annoying that SE seemingly has either decided to lean into that, or have legitimately convinced themselves that the pure angelic Aerith was always who she was.

 

[ForceStealer]

Oh yeah, Aerith always suffered from obsessive fan-perceptions imo, which makes it extra annoying that SE seemingly has either decided to lean into that, or have legitimately convinced themselves that the pure angelic Aerith was always who she was.

I don't know how you could look at Remake and think that's what SE has decided who she is.

 

[Yumelinh]

We're less than a month away from seeing this thread blowing up again. Hope everyone is ready

 

[Ryushikaze]

I love that they specify that your choices influence how your companions feel about Cloud, not the other way around.

 

[Rose Alive]

I love that they specify that your choices influence how your companions feel about Cloud, not the other way around.

This was a relief to me as well. Now there can't be any "my Cloud liked this person more than this person". It stays true to the relationship mechanic while not taking away from Cloud's feelings and the highly anticipated lifestream scene.

 

[Stiggie]

I love that they specify that your choices influence how your companions feel about Cloud, not the other way around.

Well, it was the same in the OG really. People always talk about the date as if it's Clouds doing, but it's the companions affection that gets modified, not Clouds, and they're the ones who arrive at his room at take him out, he just goes along for the ride. I wouldn't read too much into that wording though.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Well, it was the same in the OG really. People always talk about the date as if it's Clouds doing, but it's the companions affection that gets modified, not Clouds, and they're the ones who arrive at his room at take him out, he just goes along for the ride. I wouldn't read too much into that wording though.

I know it was the same in the OG, but SE is being explicit about it this time.