SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[Stiggie]

Crisis Core and Advent Children are canon though? It's not CC Aerith or ACC Aerith, it's just...Aerith. That Aerith in OG? She wrote 88 unrequited love letters over 4 years to Zack (evidently the last one wasn't that long before she met Cloud), wrote 23 wishes about spending more time with him and wears his ribbon and pink at his behest. That's not a different Aerith, canonically it's the one and same. Ditto the one in ACC.

It's not you, but I've heard this sentiment many times from Cleriths before - with little coincidence that any time Aerith is with Zack that they some find reason to pick holes in her character - like they want to trap a very small window of her portrayal in the franchise in a bottle and envisage that any nuances beyond that deviate from her character and agency.

She can't act like a teenager with a boyfriend, she can't experience trauma after losing said boyfriend, she can't wish for and give her blessing to Cloud being happy after her death. She can't be anything but the Aerith who travelled with Cloud for a few weeks - clearly having been enticed by finding the first real link to/clue about Zack since the events of Crisis Core.

"It's stupid that Aerith wears her iconic ribbon in memory of Zack" I am told as I absentmindedly twirl the ring around my finger that my ex made for me 10 years ago and that I have worn everyday since.

 

[sturmgeist2001]

Are you forgetting how Tifa used Cloud when they were teens? Tifa started to become interested only because Cloud promised her to become her knight in a shiny armor. Tifa didn't really care about Cloud before he made that promise.

That wasn't really nice either.

I dont want to start a fight but Cloud was the one who distanced himself from her because he didnt like Tifas Friends and had a superiority complex and was antisocial. Tifa always admired Cloud but believed he was something special that she can never reach but at the Water Tower she realized he was an ordinary boy and she fell in love with him which is why she asked him to make that promise so she can one day reunite with him. When Tifa apologized for not realizing Couds situation when they were kids Cloud himself said its not her fault. Traces of Two Past explained that well.

 

[KindOfBlue]

The ribbon thing is a bit weird continuity wise, since she apparently got it in CC but in Remake we see her wearing it as a little girl.

In my headcanon Aerith lost her ribbon and Zack bought her a new one or something, I dunno.

 

[Stiggie]

The ribbon thing is a bit weird continuity wise, since she apparently got it in CC but in Remake we see her wearing it as a little girl.

In my headcanon Aerith lost her ribbon and Zack bought her a new one or something, I dunno.

It's such a nothing burger of a continuity error imo. The reason small Aerith had a bow is because they wanted small Aerith to look iconic, and Aerith has a bow. Which means that yes, apparently the reason Aerith chose that bow in CC is because she used to have one just like it.
It's not even a plothole, or even headcannon, it's just that stuff happens in between scenes and you're expected to fill in the scenes using Occam's razor. It's like saying "wait a minute, why are the Turk in the mythril mines, last time we saw them they were at Midgar!".....yeah, they
moved in between scenes.

 

[Ryeleigh]

I don't really have anything to add but I just wanted to address a couple of things I saw in the thread.

Cloud is annoyed at Aerith is an interpretation that has been going around forever that was debunked by the Ultimanias saying he enjoys spending time with her. Why would he want a next time if he's so annoyed. Ultimanias confirm that he has a good time while he is with her. The other side doesn't see Cloud being super annoyed at Aerith because they know he's not.

Tbf, Cloud is undoubtedly annoyed at Aerith at times -- at least in Remake. It's evident from his expressions and body language. Such as the moment when he snaps "Quit acting like you know me!" like an irritable little brother, lol. That doesn't exclude him from enjoying her company as they get to know each other. I mean, they're not mutually exclusive? It's called relationship development. He was visibly annoyed with Barret too in the beginning and then they got to know and respect each other, you know?

The real difference is what people choose to focus on.

I've really seen the the worst of takes on the internets like Aerith forces herself on Cloud, is an abuser, a sexual predator, physical/emotional/sexual/mental abuser, mind f*cks Cloud, mentally sexualy abuses him, etc, I won't use the strong word people use because I know it can be triggering for some but yeah, all this and more. All this some think SE make one of their beloved characters be. So many people love her, she's beloved, many on the dev, the staff team love her too. Some think they'd really make that the truth of her? That was not her or their intention.

This is typical ship war hyperbole. In the ATLA fandom, a twelve-year-old boy is also called a r*pist by the opposing shippers because of an ill-timed kiss. I know it's hard and annoying to hear takes like that, especially about a favourite character but the only thing anyone can do is just ignore them and focus on what you love about the character.

Tbh when dev said they'd focus on giving both girl equal contents. I knew what'd be their "priority". So I don't believe it will end, not in part 2.
I'm more worry about the fact that Zack is now a factor and half-alive and so... uh it makes things "weird". Even weirder when the game kinda implies both girls know other loves cloud.

Yeah, having Zack die while protecting Cloud and trying to get back to Aerith, then introducing him back and having him take care of unconscious Cloud and Aerith, while Aerith tries to get together with Cloud(?) at the same time the game is showing Cloud and Tifa's mutual feelings is... certainly a direction, lol.

It's such an assassination of Aerith's character, and reminds me of everything I hated about Crisis Core.

Tbf, the writing in CC isn't particularly good so I always thought that cumbered the representation of the characters. But if you ignore the weirdly bad writing, Aerith is still herself, I think? Like when Zack's all "What do you think? Was I cool?" or something and Aerith is all "Hmm... I dunno!" lol. (Their interaction after their first meeting outside the church.)

 

[Zach1545]

Some of these comments make me sad because my love for Zack runs deep guys. He's just (sighs) the perfect specimen. No stop, please just listen to me for a moment. Not only is this man magnificent, but he's also extremely handsome. It's truly impressive how hot he is. He's over 6 feet tall, has the heart of an angel, and chooses to love Aerith with it darn it. He's not suited for dating, he's suited for marriage. It's a pain to know that I can't kiss him physically because I really REALLY want to.

 

[eggbeans]

Some of these comments make me sad because my love for Zack runs deep guys. He's just (sighs) the perfect specimen. No stop, please just listen to me for a moment. Not only is this man magnificent, but he's also extremely handsome. It's truly impressive how hot he is. He's over 6 feet tall, has the heart of an angel, and chooses to love Aerith with it darn it. He's not suited for dating, he's suited for marriage. It's a pain to know that I can't kiss him physically because I really REALLY want to.

Seriously fr tho how anybody can hate Zack is mind-boggling to me. He’s so pure, 1000% husband material and the way his and Aerith’s story turned out is so tragic to me. I hope we see them reunite in Part 3

 

[eleamaya]

Whether you like it or not Cloud and Aerith are not meant to be together. They are, at best, star-crossed lovers akin to Romeo and Juliet, but Romeo survives while Juliet dies.

To be fair, Romeo & Juliet is more similar to Zack & Aerith.
They fall in love at the first sight because of how young they are.
Unfortunately, they are separated away because of an incident.
Tseng/Lawrence try to be the connector via letter the girl send to the boy, and want to reunite them.
But it goes wrong...

he determines to return to her, to the city of Verona and Midgar even with death threat, to meet her in the church.
And you know the tragedy happens. The girl follows him shortly after.

And if we take Whispers as the Destiny literally, it's Fate who separate Zack & Aerith,
Remake ending plays the inevitability of the two characters' paths crossing.
Rebirth still play with them cannot reunite so damn hard.

But yeah, ACC gives us ending. So, who knows what we'll get in Part 3.

 

[rkss]

Yeah, having Zack die while protecting Cloud and trying to get back to Aerith, then introducing him back and having him take care of unconscious Cloud and Aerith, while Aerith tries to get together with Cloud(?) at the same time the game is showing Cloud and Tifa's mutual feelings is... certainly a direction, lol.

I'm not saying it's the direction. I'm saying it paint bad look on them by having implicit romance between 2 people, whilst the other love interest stands not far from there. It's not a well-thought scenario from director.

Normally, It'd be a fine scene; majority are not shippers ya. But, if the whole game has romance undertone going (this has yet to be seen), then one cannot ignore the other hidden message is being delivered here.

Maybe I'm biased and seeing things that ain't there. But I'm really curious how will this play out, because the nuance between Cloud-Zack-Aerith does not work.
You could argue characters are currently not themselves and they do not know it better; but these are established characters, audiences and authors know it, yet they chose to go that direction deliberately. From Doylist's pov that explanation is weak.

 

[Hix]

the nuance between Cloud-Zack-Aerith does not work.

Actually I agree, but this has been a narrative issue for Clerith from the beginning. No matter what they did with Zack, the mere fact he's existing now is incredibly awkward (at best) for those who want to eschew the canon and pursue Aerith with Cloud.

In my mind, the only two options are you ignore Zack (and Advent Children) and hope he's a non-factor in part 3 - or you re-examine Aerith's feelings for Cloud and why she's doing what she's doing, including the scene in question.

I'm not sure if the Devs are trying to deliberately indicate that she's trying to live out her time with Zack through Cloud, it seems too on the nose to suggest otherwise, but one has to assume they considered the ramifications of bringing him back and have a good reason for it.

 

[aud]

Spoiler

[There's a bit more on a YouTube Channel called Kittara Girl Amv ]

That's honestly cute ngl
I'm 100% a Clerith but this date scene is definitely very cute. I wish they did the same for Cloud and Aeriths date but I'm guessing she has other scenes that might compensate this one... they said they would make it equal between the girls so idk

 

[aud]

It's such an assassination of Aerith's character, and reminds me of everything I hated about Crisis Core.

I mean at the end of the day it's a part of their audience they alienate and convince not to get the game or the next one.

It's not even about shipper it's a beloved character as well.

I agree. CC Aerith is kinda off to me, it feels they toned down her personality to make it fit with Zack better which I think is STUPID cause chaotic Zack and chaotic Aerith would've been 10 times better than whatever we had in CC

 

[Legend45]

That's honestly cute ngl
I'm 100% a Clerith but this date scene is definitely very cute. I wish they did the same for Cloud and Aeriths date but I'm guessing she has other scenes that might compensate this one... they said they would make it equal between the girls so idk

Their relationship is more spiritual rather than physical from what I have gathered so I imagine they might have a special talk that will match it, I suppose.

 

[Maidenofwar]

Yeah, that is why I wait and see aud, I saw that French article about the love triangle debate and making the girls equal too. However from the leaks ... maybe it will all make sense in context

 

[GamerSkull]

Did they say the girls would be treated equally from a romance POV?

Or did they just say they would be treated equal in a general sense? Because they could just be referring to character moments and screen time, and not their relationship to Cloud per se.

 

[Maidenofwar]

Hard to say, the article seems to be in part about the Ltd and they think Hamaguchi is answering it?

Así han afrontado los creadores de Final Fantasy VII el triángulo amoroso entre Cloud, Aeris y Tifa

Durante una entrevista con Yoshinori Kitase y Naoki Hamaguchi, productor y director, aseguran que han tenido este aspecto muy en cuenta.

vandal.elespanol.com

 

[Hix]

Did they say the girls would be treated equally from a romance POV?

Or did they just say they would be treated equal in a general sense? Because they could just be referring to character moments and screen time, and not their relationship to Cloud per se.

Seems like it's from a point of view of screen time? He specifies ensuring every character gets equal attention but this was especially so for the girls.

Spoiler

Obviously one girl getting a kiss and the other not is kinda already proof it's not from a romance POV.

 

[GamerSkull]

Seems like it's from a point of view of screen time? He specifies ensuring every character gets equal attention but this was especially so for the girls.

Spoiler

Obviously one girl getting a kiss and the other not is kinda already proof it's not from a romance POV.

Spoiler

I’m curious about the choice. I suppose it’s possibly they’re laying the groundwork for what should be coming in Part 3 (if they don’t change things.) They have some pretty big cojones to actually commit on the LTD this early.

 

[KindOfBlue]

Or did they just say they would be treated equal in a general sense?

I’m leaning more towards it being in a general sense because if we’re talking specifically about equality in terms of romance? Come on, people. Let’s be honest with ourselves here, especially if the leaks are any indication of what’s happening.

 

[samuel]

This is gonna be long, apologizes in advance! I also repeat myself a lot and ask tons of questions. Be warned!

Let’s just get this out of the way…

Spoiler

Tifa straight up lied about having a conversation with Aerith about Zack. Watch Tifa’s date, then watch Aerith’s right after. The flashback is the same for both. Tifa says that Cloud knew Zack and Aerith gasps Tifa continues that they were friends five years ago, Aerith only says “What?” In response to the last sentence for both.

Right before Aerith responds to Cloud’s inquiry, Aerith unprompted talks about how she saw a lot of Zack in Cloud. She then says it’s okay that he is not Zack because she wants to be with him and she’s also trying hard to find him. When Cloud finally stumbles out the Zack question, Aerith’s response leads the player/watcher to conclude that not only is she over Zack (if she wasn’t already by what she JUST said) by saying the conversation she had with Tifa about him “Wasn’t important” but also reveals the fact that it actually happened.

On Tifa’s date after the flashback, Tifa just says “Not yet” in response to something we KNOW happened because why is it the same flashback? Why didn’t the development team/writers have a separate cutscene where Aerith says something else? But her saying a sad “Not yet” allows Cloud to assume that it’s a “touchy” subject and Aerith must not be over Zack. He says as much afterwards. He defaults to this because Cloud at his core is a very insecure man. Tifa says “It’s a bit more complicated than that” (complicated for who Tifa? You or Cloud?) and before Cloud can question it, Tifa changes the subject and starts talking about how she can’t remember them ever being that close… that’s… weird. Especially because this is likely the HA version of the date scene. They’ve had tons of moments we can presume: the play, the imposter thing and especially the “almost k***” people talk about.

Why did Tifa lie about having this conversation? If you believe it’s because Tifa doesn’t want to presume Aerith’s feelings or share something private… I’ll give you that but I just have one question: why didn’t she… just say that? Why did she just act as if she never had the conversation with Aerith in the first place after the flashback plays which tells the player/watched she did.

Let me also add that Cloud is clearly jealous that Aerith might have feelings for another guy (Zack). This was referenced in the Ultimania Plus when Toriyama stays that Cloud having “complex feelings” about Aerith going a date with another guy (at Evergreen Park) will enhance the depth of the scene. He asks Tifa to confirm if whether it’s true Aerith still loves Zack. Why? Because he trusts her. By the time of this date, they had already (we can assume) reconciled the whole issue where he believes she’s not real. So he trusts her to tell him the truth. We don’t know what promoted Cloud to be jealous of Zack on both their dates because that hasn’t leaked yet/game hasn’t come out yet so we’ll have to find out. Still CLOUD is bringing up the possible romantic feelings Aerith has for another man in front of Tifa while they are on a very romantic date leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Also instead of Tifa of saying “it’s not my place”, “ask her yourself” she denies the conversation happens ENTIRELY meanwhile on Aerith’s date she doesn’t deny it and proves she has feelings for Cloud even before he asked.

We don’t know the full context, but Marlene also says that Aerith “really really likes Cloud” and Aerith was “really happy” he came to save her to Zack… her ex. Unfortunately I do not know when that takes place.

You can try and bring up the Sleeping Forest date where apparently they friendzone each other but the English version of the scene that leaked proves that whatever is in the presumably original Japanese script that’s going around is untrue or at least extremely biased by purposefully misinterpreting the nuance in the Japanese language. You can also bring up the affinity system, which is only for the GS and does not affect the main story as stated by the development team.

Lastly, Cloud would have no need to ask Tifa about Aerith’s romantic feelings for another man that has presumably been dead for five years unless he was jealous. Why does he care anyway? Seems strange on a pro Tifa playthrough.

Also to add, Tifa’s doubtfulness is very confusing. Cloud being pretty unreceptive when she is making small talk after he concludes that Aerith still loves her ex leaves a LOT to be desired if you are a fan of the ship. She says before the ending of the scene that she “misread” things between them despite having a high affection with her so it’s pretty clear that the player has favored her to get this date. Her doubtfulness leaves well… doubt that she is the actual date option.
Just because this date ended in a kiss doesn’t mean what lead up to it is earned. Cloud only kissed Tifa because Aerith was no longer a romantic option anymore and it took Tifa lying about a conversation that clearly happened for him to come to that conclusion.

To note: Cloud is slightly mean to Aerith on what we see in the beginning of their date but if you are watching under the assumption he is jealous of Zack for whatever happens before this date his grumpiness makes total sense. He believes Aerith likes another guy even after all the time they’ve spent together.

I agree with every line.
This matches Nomura's view that Tifa is a woman hurt by rejection.

 

[Maidenofwar]

It depends, they did say the dates wouldn't affect the story, but that could change later.

 

[GamerSkull]

It depends, they did say the dates wouldn't affect the story, but that could change later.

Probably not. But they are still reflective of the character’s feelings towards each other regardless of whether they happen.

For example, in the original game, Tifa basically voices her insecurities to Cloud during their date. But if you get the Aerith date, those feelings of insecurity that Tifa has still exist. She just doesn’t mention them to Cloud.

Spoiler

Same thing here. Even if specific dates don’t happen, the emotions expressed in them are all canon. From what I gather, none of the dates affect later story stuff, but they do confirm all of the character’s emotions at that point in time. It doesn’t affect Rebirth’s story because everything moves quickly from there, in that the party immediately has to go the Temple and then run after Aerith so no time can be spent unwinding from anything that happened during the date.

 

[Stiggie]

Did they say the girls would be treated equally from a romance POV?

Or did they just say they would be treated equal in a general sense? Because they could just be referring to character moments and screen time, and not their relationship to Cloud per se.

It kinda has to be general. I've said this before but the idea of treating them "equally" makes zero sense.

Aerith is a cetra and has to stop Sephiroth and meteor and has her storyline about potentially dying, and her romance with Zack, and about a thousand different things. All Tifa has is her connection with Cloud, which is focused around romance.

If they're equal from a romantic POV then Tifa might as well not exist since that would cause her character to be completely overshadowed, it would essentially make her a side-character that you can also romance if you happen to want to.

And if they're equal from a screentime POV then Aeriths romance is completely overshadowed by Tifas which would also piss off the shippers.

Honestly, IMO Tifa doesn't need equal content to Aerith, atleast in rebirth, she just needs the content that is specific to her character, namely the romance. And Aerith doesn't need to have everything Aerith has plus everything that Tifa has. Just make Tifa the genuine love interest, as she so clearly is, and show how Aerith and Cloud support each other in other ways. Make the characters unique rather than interchangeable, which is an insult to each character and most of all to the ones that don't also get to be a magical world saving martyr.

 

[Zach1545]

Here everyone, have a piece of cake!

Spoiler

[]

 

[andover]

All I will say in response to these ramblings is that there is so much more cloti in this game than you even know about. Come back after the 29th. I don't know if you've seen the video of the full date, because if you haven't then you probably shouldn't be talking right now. There's so many little moments from cloud that you're missing. If you have seen the full video and you still think cloud isn't in love with her to some degree then there's no point in discussing with you because even a full blown clerith who's reasonable should be able to see that he has some sort of romantic feelings for her (at the very very least a crush).

And from what I've seen, in addition to increasing tifa's importance compared to the OG by like 100% (because tifa didn't do much in the OG at this point in the story), Rebirth is already dropping hints for a big cloti moment in part 3.

All I will say in response to these ramblings is that there is so much more cloti in this game than you even know about. Come back after the 29th. I don't know if you've seen the video of the full date, because if you haven't then you probably shouldn't be talking right now. There's so many little moments from cloud that you're missing. If you have seen the full video and you still think cloud isn't in love with her to some degree then there's no point in discussing with you because even a full blown clerith who's reasonable should be able to see that he has some sort of romantic feelings for her (at the very very least a crush).

And from what I've seen, in addition to increasing tifa's importance compared to the OG by like 100% (because tifa didn't do much in the OG at this point in the story), Rebirth is already dropping hints for a big cloti moment in part 3.

Anyway, did Tifa lie or not?