SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[Eerie]

What's even more bizarre to me, as an old CT, is that while I enjoy the kiss for the fanservice scene it is (out of the main story like all the dates), man do I dig up the Gongaga and Nibelheim reactor scene way more. And they're both in the main scenario too!

Rebirth really is very CT coded: from the start you have them fight because they love each other so badly and are afraid of "what ifs" (also Sephiroth lol), to a point the whole party is worried about them; then they somewhat reconcile in Under Junon, flirt in Costa del Sol and then the Gongaga reactor sequence comes in, showing their romance as they make up and nearly kiss. And in Nibelheim, we get to see how they're both traumatised (as well as Sephiroth's influence for Cloud) and how they are able to still be each other's support. The whole game is about their desire to reach each other, and the obstacles put on their path is, if I may say so, what they have to overcome in order to prove their love is true and stronger than anything.

@Maidenofwar yeah as in, he got shy watching it lol.

 

[Yoru]

Random thought, but since I have only been into the LTD for maybe a month or two, and the Ultimania details seems to be important…

Why is it that when older Ultimanias say Cloud has mutual feelings for Tifa, it gets disregarded?

I’m not sure if it was argued those sort of details were just translation errors or what back then. I just see them in big analysis posts.

He HAD mutual feelings for Tifa. But he was a child and a bit dumb. But he met someone else, the true love of his life. She's dead so he endures it for now. But it was not a goodbye, just a see you later. Now he waits and is supportive of Tifa his childhood friend.

I think that's pretty much how they see the story.

 

[nars305]

man do I dig up the Gongaga and Nibelheim reactor scene way more. And they're both in the main scenario too!

Gongaga is ahead of the kiss for me too for some reason. I can’t explain it, maybe it’s because it’s the moment where I got invested in their relationship. I was like why the hell do I have butterflies right now LOL.

 

[GamerSkull]

He HAD mutual feelings for Tifa. But he was a child and a bit dumb. But he met someone else, the true love of his life. She's dead so he endures it for now. But it was not a goodbye, just a see you later. Now he waits and is supportive of Tifa his childhood friend.

I think that's pretty much how they see the story.

Which does not jive with FF7’s original message tbh.

I gotta say, if FF7 is about your loved ones dying and that it’s okay to wait to be reunited with them in death and not live your life to the fullest then I think I actually hate FF7 for having such a toxic message.

 

[nars305]

He HAD mutual feelings for Tifa. But he was a child and a bit dumb. But he met someone else, the true love of his life. She's dead so he endures it for now. But it was not a goodbye, just a see you later. Now he waits and is supportive of Tifa his childhood friend.

I think that's pretty much how they see the story.

I don’t know how veteran Clotis put up with this kind of stuff. I’d go nuts.

I even see though that in the ultimania they reference the HA UTD only? So if a screenshot or moment in the credits was proof…then what about that? I guess it’s just always been a moving of goal posts.

 

[cgnVirtue]

All this and more has led to a scenario in which I don't think your average Clerith has much of, if any, tremendous insight to add the debate. There's exceptions, but by and large the ship is so overburdened with the weight of evidence against it that it can't move, stranded at sea, stuck perennially in the same spot saying the same things.

The lack of engagement from the other side, too busy now putting out fires to start any, has created something of an echochamber here which is unfortunate. I think we'd all value respectful comments to the contrary and, as a neutral ground, the atmosphere would be ideal for it. Unfortunately I just don't think there's much of great worth to add other than perhaps spread FUD that, somehow, in some way, part 3 will change track.

Indeed, that seems to be the entirety of the argument in favour of CA right now - things might change direction in part 3. That's not impossible, nor unthinkable, but it doesn't seem likely if one is to consider the Trilogy as a cohesive whole, a narrative forged as a labour of love and testament to this fantastic franchise. All signs point to a Zerith reunion and a Cloti reinforcement come part 3, the only negative is the wait.

I can understand how this place would be considered an echo chamber. I enjoy it here because I personally don’t feel like there’s an argument to be made since it’d be an argument against the narrative in my opinion. I don’t feel like I’m arguing a side. If I see someone shipping Cloud and Aerith, I don’t think that they are wrong. I wholeheartedly believe someone can come to the conclusion that Cloud and Aerith are a thing. For me though, the only thing that can change my mind is Part 3.

I entirely share your sentiment though.


When I first discovered the LTD, of course I also saw Cloud and Aerith topics and it was hard to find them compelling because it’d be such strange arguments to me. Like Cloud and Tifa don’t sleep in the same bed, or outfits in other games, etc. I don’t think that’s all of them, it was just a lot. Those kind of arguments I don’t take seriously, it’d be the same for Tifa. If at the end of the game there was a credit showing Tifa and Cloud, it wouldn’t be something in my consideration *of their relationship. I just go off the story itself.

Of course I have interpretations, and the other side as well, and that’s fun. Ultimately, I just go by the novels and games.

I’ve seen this forum called a toxic echo chamber multiple times on social media, even as recently as yesterday, so I guess this is more a response to that than these points specifically.

I don’t think it’s fair that this place gets branded as an echo chamber in certain circles. It is true that many of us share similar opinions for similar reasons. But I’ve seen a few CTs, including myself, jump to the defence of CAs when other CTs are being unfair or rude. This has been the case since I joined a month or so ago, so perhaps it was different before.

In all fairness I’ve only ever seen like 2 CAs in this thread lol, but from what I’ve seen they’ve been respectful and have brought up some good talking points. It is also true that the CAs I’ve seen in this thread accept canon as well, which makes it infinitely easier to have a productive discussion since we’re not fighting over “who is Mr. Cloud real gf???”

It’s also not because of us that the most radical/vocal CAs (aka the ones on Twitter) are unwilling to participate in discussion with anyone but themselves. This isn’t a shipping forum, it’s a FF7 forum first and foremost. We’re here to discuss FF7 as it is, and in order to do that we first have to accept FF7 as it is rather than how we want it to be. I think it’s safe to say that all of us here have already done that.

I’d like to believe that if more (reasonable) CAs stuck their heads in here that we would continue to be respectful and come to their defence if necessary.

Edit: added a word.

 

[GamerSkull]

I’ve seen this forum called a toxic echo chamber multiple times on social media, even as recently as yesterday, so I guess this is more a response to that than these points specifically.

I don’t think it’s fair that this place gets branded as an echo chamber in certain circles. It is true that many of us share similar opinions for similar reasons. But I’ve seen a few CTs, including myself, jump to the defence of CAs when other CTs are being unfair or rude. This has been the case since I joined a month or so ago, so perhaps it was different before.

In all fairness I’ve only ever seen like 2 CAs in this thread lol, but from what I’ve seen they’ve been respectful and have brought up some good talking points. It is also true that the CAs I’ve seen in this thread accept canon as well, which makes it infinitely easier to have a productive discussion since we’re not fighting over “who is Mr. Cloud real gf???”

It’s also not because of us that the most radical/vocal CAs (aka the ones on Twitter) are unwilling to participate in discussion with anyone but themselves. This isn’t a shipping forum, it’s a FF7 forum first and foremost. We’re here to discuss FF7 as it is, and in order to do that we first have to accept FF7 as it is rather than how we want it to be. I think it’s safe to say that all of us here have already done that.

I’d like to believe that if more (reasonable) CAs stuck their heads in here that we would continue to be respectful and come to their defence if necessary.

Edit: added a word.

Yes, the last thing I’d want is for this forum, and this thread especially to be an echo chamber.

I’d welcome any CA fan here so long as they debate in good faith. Such as claiming we only want Aerith to die so she’s out of the way or saying that Tifa is a horrible person who treats Cloud like shit.

And I expect the same for the reverse, as CT fans we should still be debating in good faith.

 

[Hellenic]

Here’s another delusional thought I decided to bet on— the UTH HA will be the scene. No options, that’s just it. Nothing left to the imagination or the godforsaken affection mechanic.

I sure hope so, couse i don't think having multiple scenes makes sense anymore. They better deliver on that.

 

[Yoru]

I even see though that in the ultimania they reference the HA UTD only? So if a screenshot or moment in the credits was proof…then what about that? I guess it’s just always been a moving of goal posts.

The same reason people still use the bad translated ending of OG. They're not here to learn about the story. They just want theirs. Too much time have passed. They'll never aknowledge something that doesn't go their way. Part III will be a very bad game, they'll say the Re-trilogy is a flop, it's not even canon yadi yada.

 

[Hellenic]

On the subject of humor, I wish I still had my laptop and GIMP software, I have a hilarious vision of editing Cloud and Aerith sprites into a Pokemon daycare with the dialogue for Pokemon that will not breed

After saying that you can't back out now. I need to see this.

 

[nars305]

The same reason people still use the bad translated ending of OG. They're not here to learn about the story. They just want theirs. Too much time have passed. They'll never aknowledge something that doesn't go their way. Part III will be a very bad game, they'll say the Re-trilogy is a flop, it's not even canon yadi yada.

I keep forgetting there’s no sense in it all. The intrigue of the LTD hasn’t worn off for me yet. I come across certain things like this that baffle me and make me question the logic lol.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

@Ryu & Hellenic: I'd love to get back into sprite and background edits, but on a phone? I'm sure it can be done but I cba

 

[Hellenic]

Gongaga is ahead of the kiss for me too for some reason. I can’t explain it, maybe it’s because it’s the moment where I got invested in their relationship. I was like why the hell do I have butterflies right now LOL.

I just think it was just such a meaningful moment for both of them, way more so than the Skywheel bit honestly. Cloud opening up about himself and his issues for the first time and Tifa being there to soak it all up and reassure him.

There's also a talk they have in Gold Saucer in chapter 12 that you can miss, which i loved a lot. You gotta find Tifa in the Skywheel Square before you go to the Battle Square for the story progression.

 

[Ryushikaze]

He HAD mutual feelings for Tifa. But he was a child and a bit dumb. But he met someone else, the true love of his life. She's dead so he endures it for now. But it was not a goodbye, just a see you later. Now he waits and is supportive of Tifa his childhood friend.

I think that's pretty much how they see the story.

Never mind that the mutual feelings of romantic intent are expressed under the highwind the night before the final battle. And yes, those are almost exactly the arguments that were being made 14 years ago. Only those weren't as kind towards Tifa.

I don’t know how veteran Clotis put up with this kind of stuff. I’d go nuts.

You call people dishonest fuckers a lot. It's cathartic.

I even see though that in the ultimania they reference the HA UTD only? So if a screenshot or moment in the credits was proof…then what about that? I guess it’s just always been a moving of goal posts.

Oh, that argument was especially bizarre. The argument against the canonicity of the high affection highwind scene was a mix of several different ones. I recall "It never gets referenced again" which given it comes at the tail end of the game and he starts a new life with her immediately thereafter timeline wise what more do you want. There was "mutual feelings of apathy" which was all sorts of fail, I think there were more, but I'd need to wade into the archives to check. There's a lot of screaming.

@Ryu & Hellenic: I'd love to get back into sprite and background edits, but on a phone? I'm sure it can be done but I cba

I mean phones are more powerful than laptops were 10 years ago but the screen real estate is an issue.


BTW, the people calling TLS biased, would those happen to be people named BlankBeat, Angelalex or have links to those people? Because ex-pink hellers have hated us literally since before we existed as a site because of arguments from as far back as 2005 on the old ACF.

 

[GamerSkull]

This argument of canonicity is especially weird, considering most CT are perfectly alright with accepting CA moments as canon even though they almost definitely would be in the same gray area as some CT moments.

 

[abzy1200]

To be fair, this was some random CA on a YouTube video. Most of them probably know a kiss is romantic. The ones that think that interlocked fingers are more romantic though, I guarantee you if the game hadn’t come out yet and Nojima called them all up and asked; “I got one scene of interlocked hand-holding, and one scene for a kiss. Which ones should I give Tifa and which one should I give Aerith?” Their answer would be obvious.

Usually the primary argument I see people using, is that it's just fanservice, that Cloud and Tifas' date is the only one that isn't reflective of Clouds relationship with said character.

and that even if Cloud and Tifa had sex, that it isn't necessarily romantic. (still can't believe this one)

But like you've said, imagine the uproar from their side if these elements of the LTD were on their side. I saw a ton of people theorizing about how Cloud and Aeriths first kiss was going to go, nothing on interlocked fingers. But suddenly that's all they've ever wanted since that's more romantic.

Why is it that when older Ultimanias say Cloud has mutual feelings for Tifa, it gets disregarded?

"What are you talking about, those don't exist, they're confirming feelings of mutual friendship and support, that's why Square Enix felt the need to include it on the page titled "For the one I love".

and also why Cloud claimed straight after the events of ff7, that now he had Tifa with him in a way that he didn't before, because they're just such close friends, such close friends that the main scenario writer for the compilation claims they belong together, isn't that so nice?

and also why they decided to foster and adopt a child, they're just such selfless roommates!

I mean, the writing's on the wall, Cloud abandoned Tifa in favour of Aerith, it had nothing to do with him relapsing and facing a terminal illness when his biggest fear is failing people, and forget Zack, he played no role in Clouds' emotions during advent children, it was all him yearning for Aerith."

Some of the stuff you see online these days.........

I do partially blame all of this in the fact that Tifa was in the background for a majority of the time, so it was too late to get these people to change their minds when she suddenly took over and was the most important person to Cloud.

I was always under the impression that Cloud revealing that his motivation to keep going and to strive to be a hero for Tifa was part of the plot-twist. It would have been pretty lame plot twist if you were able to see it coming from a mile away.

I enjoy the kiss for the fanservice scene

I think there are a lot of misconceptions and or confirmation bias happening in regards to the ultimania.

I think the quote is from Nojima who said that some paths you can take are outside the narrative (or something along those lines).

Cleriths instantly see this and go "Look! They said not every option is valid to the story! Cloti kiss is fanservice!"

and they would be right, had they not approached the topic in such bad faith.

Obviously, Cloud and Tifa aren't supposed to know they love each other yet, that's supposed to be a payoff in part 3 for their struggles together. They are only supposed to be aware of each others' feelings after the Lifestream sequence/Highwind scene.

On that same note, that's the reason why I will never attempt to argue that Tifas' High affection date at the gold saucer was the one that "happened", because honestly, I don't want it to have been, I think that it should be saved for part 3 because it's much more special and meaningful there than while Cloud is still mentally unstable and lying to himself.

The Cloti kiss being "fanservice" wasn't done out of pity for Clotis, it's there to display that Cloud loves Tifa and vice versa, aka a huge hint to where this story is going.

Bit of a long post, so sorry about that.

 

[Stiggie]

14 years as of this January. It went out on my birthday, as I recall.
In my defense, we were already getting accusations of being biased because of other translations that portrayed C/T in a positive light simple because they were accurately translated even before that article. Also I was right.


I can, but with regards to otherwise entirely unrelated matters the statute of limitations have not yet expired for. You know the ones. You know, the incident. With the noodles.


I am as always devoted to accuracy and correctness first, much to my wife's consternation. As it stands, not only does all information currently point towards the inevitability of C/T, but of Z/A as well, in whatever form that takes.


I mean GIMP is free. Alternately, I was never going to be given the time of day by Clerith extremists, so maybe I could make it.


To be clear, the "then" of when I wrote that article was after the whole compilation (ACC, BC, CC, DoC, the OTWAS books, though not Kids are All right) had dropped.


I think Crisis Core was the one that hurt them the most emotionally. It recontextualized what had until then been C/A moments into Z.A moments Aerith was trying to relive, consciously or not.


Not that it doesn't stop them starting a few ones of their own, what with the whole lying about kissing thing.


And just as obviously, it makes clear Zack still loves Aerith, and is not even remotely mad at her for growing attached to Cloud in his absence, as confused as he is about when and how this could have happened.


Note that Yuffie picks up and begins teasing Cloud about Tifa basically from the moment she joins the party.


Plus the slight differences in how Cloud treats each of the ladies when they are being Rosa are telling both of their personalities and his feelings toward them. He likes all three of them, but only with Tifa is there an energy, an urgency to pulling her into the twirl and dip.


There is no getting off this train we on, and this train ain't changing tracks.


The word you were looking for here was conspiracy, not conspiration, but yes, I do agree they are throwing things out in a desperate attempt to confuse matters.

To swing back around to the "kissing is just western fanservice and way too icky for the Japanese" nonsense or whatever the argument was, I now present a page of a teen romance manga written by a Japanese woman for an audience primarily composed of japanese teenage girls and young women. For a tiny bit of context, this is the main heroine out on a date at an amusement park with her boyfriend, they both very much like each other, they have trouble communicating their feelings to each other many times because of this. Literally, because they do not communicate, things do not go well, but then they do communicate and things go better. Sounds a lot like another pairing I know.

In any case, this page is the heroine Sawako and her boyfriend talking about wanting to stay together despite going to college in different cities, etc. and becoming so overcome with emotions that...

They kiss. Mind you, this is not the first kiss they've had in the series, and it is implied they go further later, I just thought it was a good example of "Japan is A-OK with kisses, Y'all" and also a cute little parallel to current discussion topics.

No no, no one ever kisses in Japan, that's why my favorite Romance manga doesn't have a kiss between the main character and the girl in chapter freaking 1.....oh wait, it does.



Ironically, it's with the new cute manic pink girl that he just met even though he's in love with his "childhood best friend" XD

 

[GamerSkull]

Usually the primary argument I see people using, is that it's just fanservice, that Cloud and Tifas' date is the only one that isn't reflective of Clouds relationship with said character.

and that even if Cloud and Tifa had sex, that it isn't necessarily romantic. (still can't believe this one)

But like you've said, imagine the uproar from their side if these elements of the LTD were on their side. I saw a ton of people theorizing about how Cloud and Aeriths first kiss was going to go, nothing on interlocked fingers. But suddenly that's all they've ever wanted since that's more romantic.


"What are you talking about, those don't exist, they're confirming feelings of mutual friendship and support, that's why Square Enix felt the need to include it on the page titled "For the one I love".

and also why Cloud claimed straight after the events of ff7, that now he had Tifa with him in a way that he didn't before, because they're just such close friends, such close friends that the main scenario writer for the compilation claims they belong together, isn't that so nice?

and also why they decided to foster and adopt a child, they're just such selfless roommates!

I mean, the writing's on the wall, Cloud abandoned Tifa in favour of Aerith, it had nothing to do with him relapsing and facing a terminal illness when his biggest fear is failing people, and forget Zack, he played no role in Clouds' emotions during advent children, it was all him yearning for Aerith."

Some of the stuff you see online these days.........


I was always under the impression that Cloud revealing that his motivation to keep going and to strive to be a hero for Tifa was part of the plot-twist. It would have been pretty lame plot twist if you were able to see it coming from a mile away.

I think there are a lot of misconceptions and or confirmation bias happening in regards to the ultimania.

I think the quote is from Nojima who said that some paths you can take are outside the narrative (or something along those lines).

Cleriths instantly see this and go "Look! They said not every option is valid to the story! Cloti kiss is fanservice!"

and they would be right, had they not approached the topic in such bad faith.

Obviously, Cloud and Tifa aren't supposed to know they love each other yet, that's supposed to be a payoff in part 3 for their struggles together. They are only supposed to be aware of each others' feelings after the Lifestream sequence/Highwind scene.

On that same note, that's the reason why I will never attempt to argue that Tifas' High affection date at the gold saucer was the one that "happened", because honestly, I don't want it to have been, I think that it should be saved for part 3 because it's much more special and meaningful there than while Cloud is still mentally unstable and lying to himself.

The Cloti kiss being "fanservice" wasn't done out of pity for Clotis, it's there to display that Cloud loves Tifa and vice versa, aka a huge hint to where this story is going.

Bit of a long post, so sorry about that.

I actually think it’s deeper. I think it’s actually there to prep everyone for what’s about to occur in Part 3. Getting people used to the idea that yes, Cloti is the direction this story is going in so that they don’t claim it as out of left-field next game.

Because, had only the Clerith scenes happened. Then it would be 8 years before Cloti happened and most people would just think it happened randomly. More so just out the the length of time… with an actual kiss, that’s very memorable so now when it happens in Part 3 most people will have expected it.

It’s probably also why they gave her more scenes earlier on this time around when she’s largely in the background in the OG at this point, to keep players reminded that this is an important thing that will later have a payoff.

If this was all one game, then they wouldn’t need to do this. As it happens to be three games taking place over a decade, they need to make sure people are seeing all the dots connecting earlier.

 

[Stiggie]

Which does not jive with FF7’s original message tbh.

I gotta say, if FF7 is about your loved ones dying and that it’s okay to wait to be reunited with them in death and not live your life to the fullest then I think I actually hate FF7 for having such a toxic message.

This is why I hate it when people undermine the romantic aspect or somehow dismiss me when I say that I would no longer be a fan of FFVII if Clerith became canon. They act like that is simply a petty thing.

But it is correct to say that your love of a story depends on the quality of the story and isn't blind, and its a simple fact that depending on who Cloud loves, you are looking at a COMPLETELY different story. And yes, that can totally and reasonably be said to be the tipping point between the themes and motivations creating an amazing one, or snowballing into an absolutely awful one.

To me the difference between Cloti and Clerith really is the difference between a 11/11, one of the best stories and romances ever told. And a 2/10 poorly written mess that makes even most fan-fics look amazing by comparison.

In all fairness I’ve only ever seen like 2 CAs in this thread lol, but from what I’ve seen they’ve been respectful and have brought up some good talking points. It is also true that the CAs I’ve seen in this thread accept canon as well, which makes it infinitely easier to have a productive discussion since we’re not fighting over “who is Mr. Cloud real gf???”

I see it as an equality of opportunity vs equality of outcome sort of thing. We can create a space where all sides are equally encouraged to share their ideas, but the entire point is that a fair equal PRODUCTIVE discussion is likely to lead to an outcome. That has happened here, there was a fair discussion and as a result Cloti was pretty consistently "winning" the arguments until there was mostly a consensus, and now when a new person comes in they're likely to produce arguments that have already been heard and addressed, and they are then quickly "corrected" as it were.
But that's how it should be, we can't guarantee an equality of outcome without forcefully limiting peoples ability to discus the LTD, which is exactly the thing we're trying to rise above. And yes, that makes it less enticing for Cleriths to come here, skewing it even further, but lets call a spade a spade, if you're unwilling to come here because you do not think your arguments can stand up to the challenge, then that's a you problem. The reason this place is an "echo chamber" is because apparently Cleriths aren't intellectually honest enough to visit a place where their ideas are judged on their merits. This place still doesn't shout people down, it's not that here you'll just run into a host of Clotis shouting nonsense to drown out your arguments in mutually reinforcing noise. No, what you get is merely the sort of arguments you would get if you left your own echo chamber. There are many Clotis here, but all their arguments will be respectful and on point similar to if you were to discuss with one of them one on one. It is essentially just the ultimate test of your viewpoint.

Long story short, you can't have a forum discussion the LTD aimed at being "productive" without "producing" a result.

 

[Hellenic]

I was always under the impression that Cloud revealing that his motivation to keep going and to strive to be a hero for Tifa was part of the plot-twist. It would have been pretty lame plot twist if you were able to see it coming from a mile away.

What i mostly meant was the fact that the 2 didn't really have many real moments of build up towards the scenes we do get later, which is pretty much fixed with the remake trilogy now. People were already very much invested in the idea of Cloud and Aerith, so they didn't really change their views with the sudden truths that surfaced with Cloud about Tifa.

 

[thetriplerhyme]

ACC but ends around the time that Cloud finishes healing Denzel at the chur

- sorry its been a while since I read turks side story~ yeaah forgot

In fact it starts a bit before and ends right at the same place lol.

@Pivi this is the timeline eitherway Cloti is confirmed even before then

 

[abzy1200]

This is why I hate it when people undermine the romantic aspect or somehow dismiss me when I say that I would no longer be a fan of FFVII if Clerith became canon. They act like that is simply a petty thing.

I gotta say, if FF7 is about your loved ones dying and that it’s okay to wait to be reunited with them in death and not live your life to the fullest then I think I actually hate FF7 for having such a toxic message.

I share this sentiment so much. Clouds entire character changes to a man of dubious loyalties who doesn't deserve either women.

It also wouldn't line up with the games' religious ties. What with the Sefirot and Tifaret or something along those lines.

and all this in a game targeted towards teenagers, aka young impressionable people. I know it's a bit ironic for me to speak about my own age group that way, but still, takes one to know one I guess.

What i mostly meant was the fact that the 2 didn't really have many real moments of build up towards the scenes we do get later, which is pretty much fixed with the remake trilogy now. People were already very much invested in the idea of Cloud and Aerith, so they didn't really change their views with the sudden truths that surfaced with Cloud about Tifa.

Again, now that new players who weren't previously in the know are being shown Cloti scenes left right and centre, it will no longer be a shocking plot twist for anyone, it will just be a development like any other. It's not necessarily a bad thing and the primary issue resolved during the lifestream sequence will still sort of be surprising for most ( the "why" won't be though)

but yeah I get what you're saying, People were so invested in Cloud and Aerith that they weren't (and aren't) willing to disregard those feelings in favour of a plot twist that makes them feel kind of betrayed.

 

[Eerie]

The Cloti kiss being "fanservice" wasn't done out of pity for Clotis, it's there to display that Cloud loves Tifa and vice versa, aka a huge hint to where this story is going.

Now, I'm someone who never really put too much into those dates tbh. I saw them as fanservice in the OG (although I will tell you that the CT one was the romantic one out of the 4), and I don't put too much thoughts in Rebirth. To me they're a bit outside of the main storyline, but the relationship that is shown in each date is true to the relationships Cloud forms with his companions. And there's only one that has a kiss, which, in itself, is very telling of how the devs have corrected the OG.

Because, had only the Clerith scenes happened. Then it would be 8 years before Cloti happened and most people would just think it happened randomly. More so just out the the length of time… with an actual kiss, that’s very memorable so now when it happens in Part 3 most people will have expected it.

I think some people know here but I have a big beef with the OG in that the game pushes you to think Aerith is the love interest only to pull the rug on you and go "joke, it's Tifa". But by the time you get there, you don't understand why she stays in Mideel with Cloud (personally on my first run I was pissed to lose my best character, plus I had a bit of a reaction "come on Tifa you can do so much better than that loser" since I hated Cloud). When the LS sequence happened, I was like "oh so that's how it went, he really loves her" but a lot of people were sold CA way too much and thought that it was only in the past, it didn't apply to the present, which is why they didn't get the Lifestream scene either.

Since Remake though, I was satisfied because I saw right from there that the devs were out to develop CT as they should've been in the OG. So I was never in doubt, so to speak. Rebirth proved me that they were exactly on that same tune and the kiss, even if "fanservicy" was there to show that Cloud Strife had only a romantic interest in one girl, even when the other is still alive. I thought it was brilliant because a kiss, that's what fans will remember, what gaming journalists will be talking about (Cloud Strife kissing his love interest after 27 years!!! That's BIG!!!) and it sets up expectations for p3. And TBH I thought that after the hug in p1, we should normally get a kiss in p2, but I was like "but it's way too early, how odd" - yet my intuition was right lol.

 

[GamerSkull]

I’m wondering what kind of madness will begin the moment Square starts marketing the final entry.

 

[nepheneethedestroyer]

I have some sympathy for fans of a ship who perceived the work to fully support the canonicity of their ship, but then had that taken away. That doesn't excuse poor behavior, of course, but it's generally easier to be a fan of something that has textual and/or popular support.

Ideally you can enjoy a ship without lording its canonicity over others and I do sometimes find the Twitter fandom can get a bit snippy in that regard, but alas. (Weirdly, this behavior goes both ways lol.)