SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

Gym Leader Devil

True Master of the Dark-type (suck it Piers)
AKA
So many names
I’m sorry I just find this so funny. WHAT?

Ah man, I don’t think I’ll ever get used to the fact that FF7 has such a passionate LTD.


Now to be clear I don't recall if BB was ever caught doing this (Ryu could probably tell us, I see he's been refreshing his memory from round 6 at least) I'm just saying their character lines up with people who did. I seem to remember BB as some sort of boss Clerith prophet type when they weren't just insulting people. Unless I'm mixing them up? It all sounds pretty samey after a few hundred pages, let alone the number we've actually had, but I definitely remember BB driving sane, rational people into mouth frothing rage a time or two.

Back in the day, we used to say "man, if only Square Enix would give Cloud and Tifa a kiss. That level of explicity would be the final nail in the coffin for sure"

Good times

Ahhh our naive youth. Wasted, because someone was wrong on the internet :reapermon:
 

nars305

🎵 I am so, so bored 🎶
Back in the day, we used to say "man, if only Square Enix would give Cloud and Tifa a kiss. That level of explicity would be the final nail in the coffin for sure"

Good times
I’m trying to think of what the equivalent to that would be for right now.

It wouldn’t matter if HA UTH is canon because that would just be fan service.

It doesn’t matter what Cloud does in any way, because it would be him settling for Tifa.

So…I’m going to say, maybe Zack and Aerith confessing their love to each other is the equivalent.
 

Ryushikaze

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
AKA
Tim, Ryu
Even with her much later introduction, Yuffie is adorably friendly and outgoing enough to bond with quickly. Unlike slotting Aerith into Tifa's role in the main narrative, which requires a full rewrite, Yuffie as Rosa still works fine. It just works better with Tifa.
She works fine, but she's more flippant and less there 'for' Aerith during the song.

I do recall her being the type to make dupes just to agree with herself. As if appeal to the masses isn't bad enough, appeal to the masses of oneself right?

In all seriousness I miss BB. Some of the most savage comebacks I've ever witnessed were aimed her way, and she always had them coming.

She was absolutely useless for a real, respectful debate though. Good for hilarious shit posts, awful for making genuine arguments to contrast your own beliefs and adjust your position accordingly.
Cali was the worst about dupes. Her and "her sister" and "her friend" natch. Funny how they all had the exact same IPs every time they posted and all sounded exactly alike.

Exactly. It can be a fine line to walk, you don't want to telegraph the twist entirely or pull the rug. But my is it exhilarating when you read or write that tightrope walk.
It doesn't even have to be that big of a twist. Sometimes the twist is a character coming to realize something that's been staring everyone else in the face for ages.

Could be interesting. I should probably set aside my antipathy for Squall and reexamine him from my more aged position. I might hate him less these days, especially outside his original appearance. Anything's possible.
FF8's translation was pretty bad in its own right, and lacking voice acting and facial expression made Squall's "why should I bother letting people get close to me if they're just going to leave me and make me sad again" very hard to convey in terms that aren't insufferable.

Which is usually worth a laugh for us bystanders. But in fairness, I used the phrasing "genuinely debate this position" which should imply actual support. Though as you and I always agreed, a vague disclaimer is no one's friend, so clarifying explicitly here is certainly not a bad thing.
The only time a vague disclaimer is a friend is when you can use it to your own advantage by exploiting a loophole. I of course want all of those for myself.

Rules Set resolutions do not exist to limit us, they exist that we might know our freedoms :awesomonster: But in seriousness, I was making visible progress with my shading way back. Limitations can in fact feel freeing when practicing this sort of thing, they help you reign yourself in a bit.
No, I get you. Generating sprite sheets for a GBA Fire Emblem is fascinating in just how tight the color pallette is and how clever you have to be with your 15 colors plus transparency no more no less.

Its such a thing these days, films that should be tv series exist side by side with TV series that would thrive for me if trimmed down into a film or two. Between pacing and bloat, this shit seems hard.
Slowly but surely people are learning.

I’m sorry I just find this so funny. WHAT?

Ah man, I don’t think I’ll ever get used to the fact that FF7 has such a passionate LTD.
BB wrote a Clerith Bible and would recite from it in lieu of responding to an argument on the regular.

Back in the day, we used to say "man, if only Square Enix would give Cloud and Tifa a kiss. That level of explicity would be the final nail in the coffin for sure"

Good times
It's the press release mentality. Same as it ever was. Every time C/T scores a point you deny it happened and claim the posts are 10 more yards down the field.

Now to be clear I don't recall if BB was ever caught doing this (Ryu could probably tell us, I see he's been refreshing his memory from round 6 at least) I'm just saying their character lines up with people who did. I seem to remember BB as some sort of boss Clerith prophet type when they weren't just insulting people. Unless I'm mixing them up? It all sounds pretty samey after a few hundred pages, let alone the number we've actually had, but I definitely remember BB driving sane, rational people into mouth frothing rage a time or two.
BB was not AFAIK ever found socking ON TLS. However I do know she runs multiple Clerith blogs on Tumblr and other sites and reblogs herself and uses herself as a source that way.
"Clerith prophet type" I would say is very on the money since she has a document that even she refers to as the Book of Clerith that she recites from. From what I've seen it's all the same old talking points about Tifa being jealous in the Shinra Jail Cell and other anti C/T and Z/A arguments that try and prove C/A by tearing down opposed ships.

Ahhh our naive youth. Wasted, because someone was wrong on the internet :reapermon:
Time ain't wasted if you're having fun. And sometimes screaming invectives at someone is just what the doctor ordered.
 

abzy1200

Pro Adventurer
Cali was the worst about dupes. Her and "her sister" and "her friend" natch. Funny how they all had the exact same IPs every time they posted and all sounded exactly alike.
Sorry for the double post but is this the person I've been hearing people say that they don't even like Aerith?
 

cgnVirtue

Lv. 25 Adventurer
AKA
Virtue
I’m trying to think of what the equivalent to that would be for right now.

It wouldn’t matter if HA UTH is canon because that would just be fan service.

It doesn’t matter what Cloud does in any way, because it would be him settling for Tifa.

So…I’m going to say, maybe Zack and Aerith confessing their love to each other is the equivalent.
At this point Cloud and Aerith can look right at the player in part 3 and say "We are not in a romantic relationship. Cloud loves Tifa, and Aerith loves Zack. This is canon."

And those people would still be like "Oh those two are so silly. Look at how shy they are, hiding their true feelings!!! Omgggg I can't."
I wish this was an exaggeration. I've seen posts that look exactly like this. They scare me.

I'd say that ignoring them is probably the best but I've seen them insert themselves into damn near every discussion on Twitter. I can tell because I see "this post is from a person that you blocked." Under so many tweets lmao. I'm just hoping that Nojima ignores all of it now.
 

Stiggie

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Stiggie
I feel like it’s hard for me to analyze NPTK because I have a Tifa bias. Watching all the dates, their Jesse interaction is more touching, and it’s sweet how she encourages Aerith. (Plus Cloud only pulling her in for the spin is an extra bonus for my bias)

I do agree with what you’re saying, it looks strange if Tifa or Yuffie are not Rosa because there’s just a big empty spot at the end. No offense to Yuffie, but Tifa has a more fleshed out relationship with *Aerith, going through all they went through in Midgar and what not. So…again, in my extremely biased, not saying anything about canon, and personal opinion… it makes sense for Aerith to be singing as Tifa is Rosa.
In general I think it makes most sense if both girls always do something, which is why I believe that tifa as Rosa should have been non-optional.

What's that one called?
More than married, less than lovers. Or "Fuufuijou koibito miman" (I think)
 
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Stiggie

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Stiggie
Sorry for the double post but is this the person I've been hearing people say that they don't even like Aerith?
I remember calling someone out on YouTube once that I was having a discussion with. Was one of those classic "clerith going 'I am a cloti but'" types.
I thought they reminded me suspiciously of someone else I'd argued with, so I said something along the lines of: "the only time I've ever heard a take this insane was by a person named darkmoon, and they had the exact same writing style as well".

They responded by saying that was their brother....yeah sure
 

Shadowfox

You look like you need a monkey
"Clerith prophet type" I would say is very on the money since she has a document that even she refers to as the Book of Clerith that she recites from. From what I've seen it's all the same old talking points about Tifa being jealous in the Shinra Jail Cell and other anti C/T and Z/A arguments that try and prove C/A by tearing down opposed ships.

Oh, I just had flashbacks to the many debates where responses were essentially copy/pasted whole passages from that bible, or from clerith.com.

At the very least, I'm relieved that their affection scoresheet doesn't seem to be in use anymore.
 

Eerie

Fire and Blood
She works fine, but she's more flippant and less there 'for' Aerith during the song.
As a woman well endowed like Tifa, I will say this: the first thing that I noticed, is that her gown is normally a dress for women with small breasts, but this one has been tweaked specifically for women well endowed.
As a Tifa fan, the second thing I noticed is how the design in itself fits Tifa (with all the leather etc.).

That led me to believe that this dress has been made for Tifa; it's also the only one that she gets in GS, contrarily to Yuffie (GS entrance with her green outfit) and Aerith (the singer's dress).

And someone noticed that:

And I certainly can spot the similarities, and I clearly see the 7 adorning the staff now (which is Tifa's number).
Sorry for the double post but is this the person I've been hearing people say that they don't even like Aerith?
IIRC she's been caught saying that from what I heard yes. I also know for sure she's been banned from a certain forum for having like 10 dupes.
 

nars305

🎵 I am so, so bored 🎶
For the delusional and mean shippers, to make it hit home they need to have it that Cloud’s implanting the memory of saving Tifa over Aerith’s death.

Need a K.O type of moment to make it sink in unfortunately.
 

Sacky

Pro Adventurer
AKA
SackyBoy
Toriyama did say he found the CT scene embarrassing when the interviewer asked so maybe an older generational thing?
Its strange they say this when they have a scene of Cloud looking through Tifas Wardrobe and Thinking Naughty Thoughts
about Tifa clones XD
 

Gym Leader Devil

True Master of the Dark-type (suck it Piers)
AKA
So many names
She works fine, but she's more flippant and less there 'for' Aerith during the song.

Exactly.

Cali was the worst about dupes. Her and "her sister" and "her friend" natch. Funny how they all had the exact same IPs every time they posted and all sounded exactly alike.

Cali is who I was thinking of, that's the bunny. BB absolutely remains the type to talk to a shameless dupe spammer and take advantage.
It doesn't even have to be that big of a twist. Sometimes the twist is a character coming to realize something that's been staring everyone else in the face for ages.

True enough, the subtle twist has its own distinct flavor of satisfaction. I do find upon examination I love "this was never quite what you thought twists" just as much as "things will never be the same again" twists.

FF8's translation was pretty bad in its own right, and lacking voice acting and facial expression made Squall's "why should I bother letting people get close to me if they're just going to leave me and make me sad again" very hard to convey in terms that aren't insufferable.

Fair play, I know I've thoroughly enjoyed spending time on characters with Squall's overall motivation. "Not letting anyone get close so I don't get hurt" isn't exactly rare after all, doesn't basically everyone Spider-Person go through that one a few times? Excepting Miles Morales maybe? It's a trope like any other, a good tool, and it seems like being at least a little insufferable is often enough part of that mindset anyway. So Squall may work for me personally better than he used to. I still prefer my insufferably edgy loners with a gooey center of "let's mosey, I cherish everyone" if course.

The only time a vague disclaimer is a friend is when you can use it to your own advantage by exploiting a loophole. I of course want all of those for myself.

Lines like this, you're gonna make folks forget which of us is named Devil :monster:

No, I get you. Generating sprite sheets for a GBA Fire Emblem is fascinating in just how tight the color pallette is and how clever you have to be with your 15 colors plus transparency no more no less.

And it gave me a chance to reference Nier in this discussion. Win/win :awesome:

Slowly but surely people are learning.

We can but hope said learning continues.

BB wrote a Clerith Bible and would recite from it in lieu of responding to an argument on the regular.

BB was not AFAIK ever found socking ON TLS. However I do know she runs multiple Clerith blogs on Tumblr and other sites and reblogs herself and uses herself as a source that way.
"Clerith prophet type" I would say is very on the money since she has a document that even she refers to as the Book of Clerith that she recites from. From what I've seen it's all the same old talking points about Tifa being jealous in the Shinra Jail Cell and other anti C/T and Z/A arguments that try and prove C/A by tearing down opposed ships.

Oh yeah, I was remembering clearly after all. I swear half of more of her posts were just cut and paste from her pink holy book, with maybe a new insult tacked on the end. Citing herself as a source is exactly what I meant about her character fitting with a dupe spam approach to "debate" as well. It's both sad and funny how little has changed.

Time ain't wasted if you're having fun. And sometimes screaming invectives at someone is just what the doctor ordered.

It's like a non-lethal, words only version of Purge Night :awesome:
 

frosty

Pro Adventurer
AKA
The Snowman
I’m trying to think of what the equivalent to that would be for right now.

It wouldn’t matter if HA UTH is canon because that would just be fan service.

It doesn’t matter what Cloud does in any way, because it would be him settling for Tifa.

So…I’m going to say, maybe Zack and Aerith confessing their love to each other is the equivalent.
I really thought a kiss would settle it. And I thought Aerith taking herself out of the equation by "knowing where she stands" would also settle it but its clear "sexy spiritual entanglements" are still on the cards to some

I'm gonna have to say the only way the hardcore Clerith prophets would acknowledge C/T at this point is:

- Developer interview confirming that it was always the intention was to have a romantic relationship between Cloud and Tifa all along. Cons: RIP Nojima's twitter and every official social handle from that point onward

- A Cloud Tifa song. Cos they love songs. NPTK and Cloud's hollow heart right?
 

GamerSkull

Pro Adventurer
I expect that if Part 3 has explicit confirmation, it will still be denied by the more hardcore shippers. But I think a majority of the fanbase would probably accept it.
 

Stiggie

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Stiggie
I really thought a kiss would settle it. And I thought Aerith taking herself out of the equation by "knowing where she stands" would also settle it but its clear "sexy spiritual entanglements" are still on the cards to some

I'm gonna have to say the only way the hardcore Clerith prophets would acknowledge C/T at this point is:

- Developer interview confirming that it was always the intention was to have a romantic relationship between Cloud and Tifa all along. Cons: RIP Nojima's twitter and every official social handle from that point onward

- A Cloud Tifa song. Cos they love songs. NPTK and Cloud's hollow heart right?
They would not give a crap about a tifa cloud love song, could be a duet between the va's about their eternal monogamous love and cleriths would still say cloud is thinking about aerith while singing it
 
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GamerSkull

Pro Adventurer
They would ot give a crap about a tifa cloud lo e song, could be a duet between the va's about their eternal monogamous love and cleriths would still say cloud is thinking about aerith while singing it
Man, this makes me believe that some of these people don’t actually understand Cloud’s character at all. Even the ones who purport to love him so much that they hate Tifa for treating him like shit. More accurately, they don’t understand any of the characters.
 

overheat28

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Overheat
I hope Nojima's stated aim of leaving little up to interpretation holds true for ZA as much as it seems to for CT.

Reason I say this is because I see rehashing Maiden is now back in vogue on Twitter. Zack is apparently a sidepiece and is not worthy of Aerith who deserves the main character (conveniently forgetting Crisis Core was a thing). Not to mention the "main piece" sure seems to love emulating said sidepiece through most of the game (in non-delusional discourse, this "sidepiece" would actually be called the OG).

How could Aerith ending up in the lifestream with him be a good ending, especially since she clearly wants Cloud.
Too bad they can't call Zack a fucboy anymore like he was in Maiden (they still try).

Well, it's not a "good" ending for either of them - that's the point and it is beyond tragic. We take them being together in death as a sort of solace. If Zackbros can accept it, Aerith stans should be able to come to terms with it, too. As it is, they want to reduce him to a platonic plaything to keep her company in LS while she pines for Cloud. This is disgusting, imo. I'd rather Zack just never reunited with her if this is what's planned (I know it's not, but the relentless gaslighting sometimes causes doubt). How can people read a story and it's direction so wrong, it's mind-boggling.

It's all so tiring. Nojima, just please clear this up in the last game. Another 3 years of this....

Also, would not refuse a recontextualized lifestream ending where Zack and Aerith get shipped off to their own bubble world to give them something more positive. Seems unlikely, tho, sadly. I'll take what I can get.
 

Stiggie

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Stiggie
I expect that if Part 3 has explicit confirmation, it will still be denied by the more hardcore shippers. But I think a majority of the fanbase would probably accept it.
I think this is the way actually, I dont think any specific thing will convince non-shippers, but if it becomes the commonly accepted truth among the masses that cloti is canon then that will eventually wear clerith down. Right now everyone who plays ffvii for the first time expects there to be 2 female love interrest. When that stops and people start already knowing that tifa is endgame, and when, when they talk about the game that's what they're constantly hearing, that might cause clerith to wither and die. But no single thing will do it I think
 

GamerSkull

Pro Adventurer
I think this is the way actually, I dont think any specific thing will convince non-shippers, but if it becomes the commonly accepted truth among the masses that cloti is canon then that will eventually wear clerith down. Right now everyone who plays ffvii for the first time expects there to be 2 female love interrest. When that stops and people start already knowing that tifa is endgame, and when, when they talk about the game that's what they're constantly hearing, that might cause clerith to wither and die. But no single thing will do it I think
I still think it would be denied, with excuses like “the writers caved to pressure”, etc.
 

Hellenic

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Hellenic
She was absolutely useless for a real, respectful debate though. Good for hilarious shit posts, awful for making genuine arguments to contrast your own beliefs and adjust your position accordingly.
I actually backread a lot of the early pages of this thread in the past when i was still an accountless lurker and said person kept going on circles with the same statements over and over without acknowledging anything that came their way. It was definitely a weird way to go about this whole thing.
 

Pivi

Rookie Adventurer
On the Cloti kiss fanservice date canonity:

I never buy it when someone tries to discredit the date scenes, just because they're optional or not part of the main narrative. It's like hypothetically when Cloud tells his kids how he met their mother (bad pun intended), he tells them that "Ah, and I went with Tifa/Aerith/Yuffie/Barret/Red/the guys on the skywheel. Those were fun times." and nothing more. It happened, but had no consequence on how the story goes.

Also, everything that's in the game is tgere for a reason. They're not putting something there just to say that it's never happens, it's there for a reason. Namely to give us more context on Cloud's feelings, or some more tidbits to understand the story more.

One last thing:
I always laughed when someone brought up the OG saying that it's harder to get Tifa's date (which is not), saying that it is proof of it not being canon. Well, getting a game's true ending is always hard, but no one says that it's not canon because it's not easy to get...
 

GamerSkull

Pro Adventurer
Yeah, saying “it’s not canon because it’s harder to get” is bizarre. It’s in the game, the devs programmed it in for a reason. Not just simply for it to be handwaved with “it doesn’t matter.”

Everything in the game… is put in the game for a reason. Even fanservice isn’t “meaningless.”
 
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