SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[Stiggie]

I feel like it’s hard for me to analyze NPTK because I have a Tifa bias. Watching all the dates, their Jesse interaction is more touching, and it’s sweet how she encourages Aerith. (Plus Cloud only pulling her in for the spin is an extra bonus for my bias)

I do agree with what you’re saying, it looks strange if Tifa or Yuffie are not Rosa because there’s just a big empty spot at the end. No offense to Yuffie, but Tifa has a more fleshed out relationship with *Aerith, going through all they went through in Midgar and what not. So…again, in my extremely biased, not saying anything about canon, and personal opinion… it makes sense for Aerith to be singing as Tifa is Rosa.

In general I think it makes most sense if both girls always do something, which is why I believe that tifa as Rosa should have been non-optional.

What's that one called?

More than married, less than lovers. Or "Fuufuijou koibito miman" (I think)

 

[Stiggie]

Sorry for the double post but is this the person I've been hearing people say that they don't even like Aerith?

I remember calling someone out on YouTube once that I was having a discussion with. Was one of those classic "clerith going 'I am a cloti but'" types.
I thought they reminded me suspiciously of someone else I'd argued with, so I said something along the lines of: "the only time I've ever heard a take this insane was by a person named darkmoon, and they had the exact same writing style as well".

They responded by saying that was their brother....yeah sure

 

[Shadowfox]

"Clerith prophet type" I would say is very on the money since she has a document that even she refers to as the Book of Clerith that she recites from. From what I've seen it's all the same old talking points about Tifa being jealous in the Shinra Jail Cell and other anti C/T and Z/A arguments that try and prove C/A by tearing down opposed ships.

Oh, I just had flashbacks to the many debates where responses were essentially copy/pasted whole passages from that bible, or from clerith.com.

At the very least, I'm relieved that their affection scoresheet doesn't seem to be in use anymore.

 

[Eerie]

She works fine, but she's more flippant and less there 'for' Aerith during the song.

As a woman well endowed like Tifa, I will say this: the first thing that I noticed, is that her gown is normally a dress for women with small breasts, but this one has been tweaked specifically for women well endowed.
As a Tifa fan, the second thing I noticed is how the design in itself fits Tifa (with all the leather etc.).

That led me to believe that this dress has been made for Tifa; it's also the only one that she gets in GS, contrarily to Yuffie (GS entrance with her green outfit) and Aerith (the singer's dress).

And someone noticed that:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1778771335495479487

And I certainly can spot the similarities, and I clearly see the 7 adorning the staff now (which is Tifa's number).

Sorry for the double post but is this the person I've been hearing people say that they don't even like Aerith?

IIRC she's been caught saying that from what I heard yes. I also know for sure she's been banned from a certain forum for having like 10 dupes.

 

[CldS7]

why is there a new Blue baby theory with the new baby weapons....

 

[abzy1200]

why is there a new Blue baby theory with the new baby weapons....

Please do tell

 

[nars305]

For the delusional and mean shippers, to make it hit home they need to have it that Cloud’s implanting the memory of saving Tifa over Aerith’s death.

Need a K.O type of moment to make it sink in unfortunately.

 

[Sacky]

Toriyama did say he found the CT scene embarrassing when the interviewer asked so maybe an older generational thing?

Its strange they say this when they have a scene of Cloud looking through Tifas Wardrobe and Thinking Naughty Thoughts
about Tifa clones XD

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

She works fine, but she's more flippant and less there 'for' Aerith during the song.

Exactly.

Cali was the worst about dupes. Her and "her sister" and "her friend" natch. Funny how they all had the exact same IPs every time they posted and all sounded exactly alike.

Cali is who I was thinking of, that's the bunny. BB absolutely remains the type to talk to a shameless dupe spammer and take advantage.

It doesn't even have to be that big of a twist. Sometimes the twist is a character coming to realize something that's been staring everyone else in the face for ages.

True enough, the subtle twist has its own distinct flavor of satisfaction. I do find upon examination I love "this was never quite what you thought twists" just as much as "things will never be the same again" twists.

FF8's translation was pretty bad in its own right, and lacking voice acting and facial expression made Squall's "why should I bother letting people get close to me if they're just going to leave me and make me sad again" very hard to convey in terms that aren't insufferable.

Fair play, I know I've thoroughly enjoyed spending time on characters with Squall's overall motivation. "Not letting anyone get close so I don't get hurt" isn't exactly rare after all, doesn't basically everyone Spider-Person go through that one a few times? Excepting Miles Morales maybe? It's a trope like any other, a good tool, and it seems like being at least a little insufferable is often enough part of that mindset anyway. So Squall may work for me personally better than he used to. I still prefer my insufferably edgy loners with a gooey center of "let's mosey, I cherish everyone" if course.

The only time a vague disclaimer is a friend is when you can use it to your own advantage by exploiting a loophole. I of course want all of those for myself.

Lines like this, you're gonna make folks forget which of us is named Devil

No, I get you. Generating sprite sheets for a GBA Fire Emblem is fascinating in just how tight the color pallette is and how clever you have to be with your 15 colors plus transparency no more no less.

And it gave me a chance to reference Nier in this discussion. Win/win

Slowly but surely people are learning.

We can but hope said learning continues.

BB wrote a Clerith Bible and would recite from it in lieu of responding to an argument on the regular.

BB was not AFAIK ever found socking ON TLS. However I do know she runs multiple Clerith blogs on Tumblr and other sites and reblogs herself and uses herself as a source that way.
"Clerith prophet type" I would say is very on the money since she has a document that even she refers to as the Book of Clerith that she recites from. From what I've seen it's all the same old talking points about Tifa being jealous in the Shinra Jail Cell and other anti C/T and Z/A arguments that try and prove C/A by tearing down opposed ships.

Oh yeah, I was remembering clearly after all. I swear half of more of her posts were just cut and paste from her pink holy book, with maybe a new insult tacked on the end. Citing herself as a source is exactly what I meant about her character fitting with a dupe spam approach to "debate" as well. It's both sad and funny how little has changed.

Time ain't wasted if you're having fun. And sometimes screaming invectives at someone is just what the doctor ordered.

It's like a non-lethal, words only version of Purge Night

 

[frosty]

I’m trying to think of what the equivalent to that would be for right now.

It wouldn’t matter if HA UTH is canon because that would just be fan service.

It doesn’t matter what Cloud does in any way, because it would be him settling for Tifa.

So…I’m going to say, maybe Zack and Aerith confessing their love to each other is the equivalent.

I really thought a kiss would settle it. And I thought Aerith taking herself out of the equation by "knowing where she stands" would also settle it but its clear "sexy spiritual entanglements" are still on the cards to some

I'm gonna have to say the only way the hardcore Clerith prophets would acknowledge C/T at this point is:

- Developer interview confirming that it was always the intention was to have a romantic relationship between Cloud and Tifa all along. Cons: RIP Nojima's twitter and every official social handle from that point onward

- A Cloud Tifa song. Cos they love songs. NPTK and Cloud's hollow heart right?

 

[GamerSkull]

I expect that if Part 3 has explicit confirmation, it will still be denied by the more hardcore shippers. But I think a majority of the fanbase would probably accept it.

 

[Stiggie]

I really thought a kiss would settle it. And I thought Aerith taking herself out of the equation by "knowing where she stands" would also settle it but its clear "sexy spiritual entanglements" are still on the cards to some

I'm gonna have to say the only way the hardcore Clerith prophets would acknowledge C/T at this point is:

- Developer interview confirming that it was always the intention was to have a romantic relationship between Cloud and Tifa all along. Cons: RIP Nojima's twitter and every official social handle from that point onward

- A Cloud Tifa song. Cos they love songs. NPTK and Cloud's hollow heart right?

They would not give a crap about a tifa cloud love song, could be a duet between the va's about their eternal monogamous love and cleriths would still say cloud is thinking about aerith while singing it

 

[GamerSkull]

They would ot give a crap about a tifa cloud lo e song, could be a duet between the va's about their eternal monogamous love and cleriths would still say cloud is thinking about aerith while singing it

Man, this makes me believe that some of these people don’t actually understand Cloud’s character at all. Even the ones who purport to love him so much that they hate Tifa for treating him like shit. More accurately, they don’t understand any of the characters.

 

[overheat28]

I hope Nojima's stated aim of leaving little up to interpretation holds true for ZA as much as it seems to for CT.

Reason I say this is because I see rehashing Maiden is now back in vogue on Twitter. Zack is apparently a sidepiece and is not worthy of Aerith who deserves the main character (conveniently forgetting Crisis Core was a thing). Not to mention the "main piece" sure seems to love emulating said sidepiece through most of the game (in non-delusional discourse, this "sidepiece" would actually be called the OG).

How could Aerith ending up in the lifestream with him be a good ending, especially since she clearly wants Cloud.
Too bad they can't call Zack a fucboy anymore like he was in Maiden (they still try).

Well, it's not a "good" ending for either of them - that's the point and it is beyond tragic. We take them being together in death as a sort of solace. If Zackbros can accept it, Aerith stans should be able to come to terms with it, too. As it is, they want to reduce him to a platonic plaything to keep her company in LS while she pines for Cloud. This is disgusting, imo. I'd rather Zack just never reunited with her if this is what's planned (I know it's not, but the relentless gaslighting sometimes causes doubt). How can people read a story and it's direction so wrong, it's mind-boggling.

It's all so tiring. Nojima, just please clear this up in the last game. Another 3 years of this....

Also, would not refuse a recontextualized lifestream ending where Zack and Aerith get shipped off to their own bubble world to give them something more positive. Seems unlikely, tho, sadly. I'll take what I can get.

 

[Stiggie]

I expect that if Part 3 has explicit confirmation, it will still be denied by the more hardcore shippers. But I think a majority of the fanbase would probably accept it.

I think this is the way actually, I dont think any specific thing will convince non-shippers, but if it becomes the commonly accepted truth among the masses that cloti is canon then that will eventually wear clerith down. Right now everyone who plays ffvii for the first time expects there to be 2 female love interrest. When that stops and people start already knowing that tifa is endgame, and when, when they talk about the game that's what they're constantly hearing, that might cause clerith to wither and die. But no single thing will do it I think

 

[GamerSkull]

I think this is the way actually, I dont think any specific thing will convince non-shippers, but if it becomes the commonly accepted truth among the masses that cloti is canon then that will eventually wear clerith down. Right now everyone who plays ffvii for the first time expects there to be 2 female love interrest. When that stops and people start already knowing that tifa is endgame, and when, when they talk about the game that's what they're constantly hearing, that might cause clerith to wither and die. But no single thing will do it I think

I still think it would be denied, with excuses like “the writers caved to pressure”, etc.

 

[Hellenic]

She was absolutely useless for a real, respectful debate though. Good for hilarious shit posts, awful for making genuine arguments to contrast your own beliefs and adjust your position accordingly.

I actually backread a lot of the early pages of this thread in the past when i was still an accountless lurker and said person kept going on circles with the same statements over and over without acknowledging anything that came their way. It was definitely a weird way to go about this whole thing.

 

[Pivi]

On the Cloti kiss fanservice date canonity:

I never buy it when someone tries to discredit the date scenes, just because they're optional or not part of the main narrative. It's like hypothetically when Cloud tells his kids how he met their mother (bad pun intended), he tells them that "Ah, and I went with Tifa/Aerith/Yuffie/Barret/Red/the guys on the skywheel. Those were fun times." and nothing more. It happened, but had no consequence on how the story goes.

Also, everything that's in the game is tgere for a reason. They're not putting something there just to say that it's never happens, it's there for a reason. Namely to give us more context on Cloud's feelings, or some more tidbits to understand the story more.

One last thing:
I always laughed when someone brought up the OG saying that it's harder to get Tifa's date (which is not), saying that it is proof of it not being canon. Well, getting a game's true ending is always hard, but no one says that it's not canon because it's not easy to get...

 

[GamerSkull]

Yeah, saying “it’s not canon because it’s harder to get” is bizarre. It’s in the game, the devs programmed it in for a reason. Not just simply for it to be handwaved with “it doesn’t matter.”

Everything in the game… is put in the game for a reason. Even fanservice isn’t “meaningless.”

 

[Hellenic]

In general I think it makes most sense if both girls always do something, which is why I believe that tifa as Rosa should have been non-optional.

It definitely felt weird to me to not have either Yuffie or Tifa involved on stage by default. Hell i would've liked them both to just be involved like how Cait, Red and Barret are.

It does feel a bit like the devs wanted you to go for Tifa or Yuffie for the play instead of Aerith, considering you don't even have to do Aeriths to get all the Johnny collection finished. Then ofc Aerith doing the singing feels more natural too when you have either Tifa or Yuffie arrive from the play with the others, instead of it just having Aerith somehow warp to her singing immediately out of the play. Though i guess you could argue that some time passes between the events there, but still.

 

[nars305]

I still think it would be denied, with excuses like “the writers caved to pressure”, etc.

I already saw this argument for the current game, they caved to “cloti dogs”.

 

[Hellenic]

why is there a new Blue baby theory with the new baby weapons....

God no .

 

[Ryushikaze]

Out of all the hate characters get from Cleriths, this is easily my least favourite. It's such a fucking insulting thing to say about a woman, especially considering we're talking about Tifa and everything she's done for him.

I honestly suspect there's some form of transference going on. They dislike her because her looks remind them of someone or some idea they have of women who look like that, since it's nothing like the Tifa we know of in the games and film.

Sorry for the double post but is this the person I've been hearing people say that they don't even like Aerith?

Yes, Cali has said that. She just hated Tifa more and saw Aerith as the least bad option for Cloud. I suspect she was a self inserter, though you have to wonder why with how bad a person her Cloud was when you looked at him in the bigger picture.

In general I think it makes most sense if both girls always do something, which is why I believe that tifa as Rosa should have been non-optional.

It helps balance their screen presence, yeah.

More than married, less than lovers. Or "Fuufuijou koibito miman" (I think)

Danke.

I remember calling someone out on YouTube once that I was having a discussion with. Was one of those classic "clerith going 'I am a cloti but'" types.
I thought they reminded me suspiciously of someone else I'd argued with, so I said something along the lines of: "the only time I've ever heard a take this insane was by a person named darkmoon, and they had the exact same writing style as well".

They responded by saying that was their brother....yeah sure

What was that argument out of curiosity?

Oh, I just had flashbacks to the many debates where responses were essentially copy/pasted whole passages from that bible, or from clerith.com.

At the very least, I'm relieved that their affection scoresheet doesn't seem to be in use anymore.

I'm trying to remember the affection scoresheet. Was it that really terrible set of JPGs that came out around AC or am I thinking of something else?

As a woman well endowed like Tifa, I will say this: the first thing that I noticed, is that her gown is normally a dress for women with small breasts, but this one has been tweaked specifically for women well endowed.
As a Tifa fan, the second thing I noticed is how the design in itself fits Tifa (with all the leather etc.).

That led me to believe that this dress has been made for Tifa; it's also the only one that she gets in GS, contrarily to Yuffie (GS entrance with her green outfit) and Aerith (the singer's dress).

Those are good points, yes. The color scheme and material fit Tifa more than either other lady.

And someone noticed that:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1778771335495479487

And I certainly can spot the similarities, and I clearly see the 7 adorning the staff now (which is Tifa's number).

This isn't the place for it exactly, but this reminds me, does anyone else think Aerith's final staff in Rebirth is actually a Cetra laser rifle of some sort?

IIRC she's been caught saying that from what I heard yes. I also know for sure she's been banned from a certain forum for having like 10 dupes.

If you mean this forum, as far as I recall, I never explicitly banned her, merely every single one of her dupes. If not this one, which other one was she caught at?

why is there a new Blue baby theory with the new baby weapons....

Do I need to break out Water Tower Baby Denzel again for these people?

Cali is who I was thinking of, that's the bunny. BB absolutely remains the type to talk to a shameless dupe spammer and take advantage.

I've noticed in my traipse back through time that what BB didn't recite from the pre-written spiels was often attempts to throw my words back at me. Like her repeated use of "common sense" was echoing my usage of it at her from almost a decade prior. I had forgotten it. She had not. Amazing to live rent free in someone's head like that.

True enough, the subtle twist has its own distinct flavor of satisfaction. I do find upon examination I love "this was never quite what you thought twists" just as much as "things will never be the same again" twists.

In a romantic sense, I love the "What, X doesn't like me!" "Oh yes X does" -SUDDEN SHOCK OF REALIZATION AS YEARS OF INTERACTIONS RECONTEXTUALIZE- type twist. Like how Amy thinks Rory would be the perfect boyfriend for her but she thinks he's gay because he's never shown interest in a woman and he's always hanging around with her and OH"

Fair play, I know I've thoroughly enjoyed spending time on characters with Squall's overall motivation. "Not letting anyone get close so I don't get hurt" isn't exactly rare after all, doesn't basically everyone Spider-Person go through that one a few times? Excepting Miles Morales maybe? It's a trope like any other, a good tool, and it seems like being at least a little insufferable is often enough part of that mindset anyway. So Squall may work for me personally better than he used to. I still prefer my insufferably edgy loners with a gooey center of "let's mosey, I cherish everyone" if course.

There's also the "push them away so I don't hurt them either" part, which is what takes him from antisocial to empathetic in a twisted wounded way.

Lines like this, you're gonna make folks forget which of us is named Devil

You're the devil they know. I, on the other hand...

And it gave me a chance to reference Nier in this discussion. Win/win

Aye. I need to go back and finish that remaster, come to think of it.

We can but hope said learning continues.

Agreed.

Oh yeah, I was remembering clearly after all. I swear half of more of her posts were just cut and paste from her pink holy book, with maybe a new insult tacked on the end. Citing herself as a source is exactly what I meant about her character fitting with a dupe spam approach to "debate" as well. It's both sad and funny how little has changed.

She's legitimately gotten worse over time.

It's like a non-lethal, words only version of Purge Night

No hesitation, no remorse, just good times.

Man, this makes me believe that some of these people don’t actually understand Cloud’s character at all. Even the ones who purport to love him so much that they hate Tifa for treating him like shit. More accurately, they don’t understand any of the characters.

I remember some time ago one of them admitted that she's never played the original game and still thought she knew the characters better than anyone else.

I hope Nojima's stated aim of leaving little up to interpretation holds true for ZA as much as it seems to for CT.

Reason I say this is because I see rehashing Maiden is now back in vogue on Twitter. Zack is apparently a sidepiece and is not worthy of Aerith who deserves the main character (conveniently forgetting Crisis Core was a thing). Not to mention the "main piece" sure seems to love emulating said sidepiece through most of the game (in non-delusional discourse, this "sidepiece" would actually be called the OG).

How could Aerith ending up in the lifestream with him be a good ending, especially since she clearly wants Cloud.
Too bad they can't call Zack a fucboy anymore like he was in Maiden (they still try).

Even Maiden isn't good for C/A. Aerith calls up Zack trying to remember the things that made cloud Unique (oops) and even as she 'rejects' Zack her lines are awful flirty, and Aerith herself gives Cloud and Tifa her blessing during the course of the story.

Well, it's not a "good" ending for either of them - that's the point and it is beyond tragic. We take them being together in death as a sort of solace. If Zackbros can accept it, Aerith stans should be able to come to terms with it, too. As it is, they want to reduce him to a platonic plaything to keep her company in LS while she pines for Cloud. This is disgusting, imo. I'd rather Zack just never reunited with her if this is what's planned (I know it's not, but the relentless gaslighting sometimes causes doubt). How can people read a story and it's direction so wrong, it's mind-boggling.

It's all so tiring. Nojima, just please clear this up in the last game. Another 3 years of this....

Also, would not refuse a recontextualized lifestream ending where Zack and Aerith get shipped off to their own bubble world to give them something more positive. Seems unlikely, tho, sadly. I'll take what I can get.

I think this might be what's happening? Future Aerith, what people are calling Omni-Aerith might be trying to pull a sneaky with timelines just so she can give her other self and Zack a happy ending.

 

[nars305]

If they absolutely nail Mideel to the Lifestream sequence it’ll be undeniable. No kiss needed.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Yeah, saying “it’s not canon because it’s harder to get” is bizarre. It’s in the game, the devs programmed it in for a reason. Not just simply for it to be handwaved with “it doesn’t matter.”

Everything in the game… is put in the game for a reason. Even fanservice isn’t “meaningless.”

It's like they're bringing back all the classic discredited arguments just to see what might stick. It'll be fun to see the bullshit they try when part 3 finally drops.