SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[LunarTarotGirl]

@SilverSisu
I think and I have said this before. The devs are not isolating CA fans. If you play the CA route in Rebirth nothing pushes CA over CT but it also doesn't discourage it either. They let you enjoy CA moments and if you don't look at other routes and sidequests it lets you just enjoy CA without telling you not to. In comparison there is currently no Zack moments with Aerith awake yet so you think that means they're pushing CA over ZA.

However, if you play every route, if you do more sidequests it starts becoming fairly obvious that they're setting up stuff to go a certain way. And even without doing sidequests in the end anyway Aerith says she now knows where they stand and "I really like you Cloud" but "Like can mean different things can't it?" "Because there's liking and likingg" they toned down her feelings for Cloud very obviously from what we saw in LS White because this is a different Aerith and in this point we also have Zack at the church looking for her in another timeline. And we also have cut aways to Zack often throughout the game. Why? Because they're setting up for pt 3.

Because he is in the background we don't really notice as much. But we see Stamp stuff in her dream too in the background. Because it's part of the set up.

Also in the main scenario itself even if you don't get Tifa's date there is set up there too that was not at all there in OG. Foreshadowing to the Lifestream scene, moments between her and Cloud that will pay off in part 3.

So I don't think they're trying to isolate CA fans. But they're definitely setting up the story they wish to tell in the background. And they're making it really easy to reunite Aerith with Zack without conflicting with the moments we had with CA.

This is not really setting up a pay off that's ambiguous but just setting things up for a specific outcome imo Zerith reunion and CT without isolating CA fans in the process.


Just my two cents.

 

[SilverSisu]

Also, in JP there is no maybe, she simply says yes.

Really? So that was just english dub messing up?

 

[Rin]

Really? So that was just english dub messing up?

Yeah, in JP she plainly tells Cloud that she's still in love with Zack.

 

[imach0c0]

I think what also solidified Aerith's mixed feelings was her GS date with Cloud. Although she says she wants to be with Cloud and is trying to find the real Cloud, it feels like she is infatuated in the moment especially when she says "just until the ride is over." The date kinda feels more sad than romantic because it gives an impression that she just wants to enjoy a moment or fantasy, for a lack of better word.

Coupled that with the dream date, it does seem she has not gotten over Zack and her love for Cloud is leaning into emotional love rather than romantic love.

I think the Zack stuff is a setup to add drama and angst to be resolved in Part 3.

That's because it's not at the forefront. It's all set up right now. Rebirth was all set up. But the way they set things up actually makes it so that if they want a ZA reunion it will happen. Everything is in place. Aerith isn't even sure she loves Cloud beyond a crush and I'm still mad at that. That leaves it extremely open for them to have her meet Zack again without conflicting with her relationship with Cloud or her feelings.

It's just what I see them doing.

I could be wrong but I don't think I am.

 

[SilverSisu]

Yeah, in JP she plainly tells Cloud that she's still in love with Zack.

Well that is good to hear.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

Really? So that was just english dub messing up?

It's not really messing up. In Japanese she says Sou da ne. Which is like that's right, right? The Sou da ne here implies she is musing about it so they put "maybe" in English to reflect that.

"If you add the particle ね (ne) to the end of the sentence, it becomes そうですね。(sou desu ne) – “So it is, isn’t it?”

★　そうですね。(sou desu ne)is used when agreeing with a statement.

★　In casual Japanese, you can simply say そうね。(sou ne) or そうだね。(sou da ne)"

Source: Japanese Phrases: そうです (sou desu) -

Also Disclaimer: I self studied Japanese for decades now and that is my understanding of the ne particle but I'm not a Japanese native speaker if anyone wants to correct me.****

The important part is: He has never given me a reason not to. Which means "yes" very obviously. She thought about it and that's her answer.

People just focused on the Maybe without paying attention to the rest. They both say the same idea.

 

[thetriplerhyme]

So, no, there's no big internal conspiracy to push Aerith into a relationship with Cloud

Oh no this is not my point Hamaguchi-san sometimes who will release statement like 'the GS dates doesn't affect the story line' before game has been released.

Although this is just a mere statement it fuels a lot C/A thinking one of the devs are C/A coded hence its fueling LTD more and more of their desire.

One C/A even said 'Hamaguchi will make sure Cloud will end up with Aer '

Cuz sometimes when he released a statement its one sided.. i know all of them are adults who makes decisions as a team and for the game itself. I respect that.. i just wish sometimes he will he careful when releasing statement as his personal interest sometimes shows and fueling desire of those crazy C/A ..

 

[imach0c0]

Oh no this is not my point Hamaguchi-san sometimes who will release statement like 'the GS dates doesn't affect the story line' before game has been released.

Although this is just a mere statement it fuels a lot C/A thinking one of the devs are C/A coded hence its fueling LTD more and more of their desire.

One C/A even said 'Hamaguchi will make sure Cloud will end up with Aer '

Cuz sometimes when he released a statement its one sided.. i know all of them are adults who makes decisions as a team and for the game itself. I respect that.. i just wish sometimes he will he careful when releasing statement as his personal interest sometimes shows and fueling desire of those crazy C/A ..

Was the Hamaguchi statement regarding the loveless one? I vaguely recall him mentioning to pay attention to loveless because its part of the lore (take it with a grain of salt, I could be wrong)

 

[Rin]

Oh no this is not my point Hamaguchi-san sometimes who will release statement like 'the GS dates doesn't affect the story line' before game has been released.

Although this is just a mere statement it fuels a lot C/A thinking one of the devs are C/A coded hence its fueling LTD more and more of their desire.

One C/A even said 'Hamaguchi will make sure Cloud will end up with Aer '

Cuz sometimes when he released a statement its one sided.. i know all of them are adults who makes decisions as a team and for the game itself. I respect that.. i just wish sometimes he will he careful when releasing statement as his personal interest sometimes shows and fueling desire of those crazy C/A ..

I think a lot of people take Hamaguchi out of context too. Aerith is one of his fave characters and so he enjoys her content, but he recently said his favourite date was actually Nanaki's lol which goes against the CAs once claiming that he favoured Aeriths date out of all of them bc he showed excitement about it in one of the interviews. He's a dev.... of course he's happy about the content they created, especially for Aerith who is his fave gal. That doesn't make him a Clerith but this fandom has no understanding of nuance.

 

[imach0c0]

What is your opinion on Nojima calling Cloud and Aerith koibito and on the way to a smile novel stating that Cloud is the most important person in Aerith's life. Zack doesn't even get mentioned.

I have a feeling that the ending will be ambiguous, open ended and left for players to interpret. Otherwise it would retcon the novel.

For the koibito note, I had a theory that I mentioned previously so I'll copy and paste it here:

Regarding the koibito note, that Aerith died before she could meet or talk to Cloud. Perhaps she developed "love" for Cloud but was unable to figure out what kind of "love" it was because she died. If this Aerith is the same one from COLW, I can see why her feelings are conflicted because this is her first time meeting Cloud after death. However, after going on the "date" with Cloud, perhaps its through having that experience with Cloud, where she comes to the realization that the "like" she initially thought she had for him is not necessarily that. Meaning, its perhaps leaning into an emotional love, not a romantic love.


For the Aerith and Zack scenes, its important to observe that Zack has not met an 'awaken' Aerith yet, so his interactions with her are limited. We also do not know the nature of Zack's existence and if it was possible for Aerith and Zack to meet in any of the universes from Rebirth. I think there were a lot of Zack and Aerith moments, but it was told through showing rather than telling. Essentially visual storytelling using symbolism. I think the angst is part of the drama for a setup to be resolved in part 3. The greater the angst, the bigger the payoff.

For instance:

-There's a scene where Zack looks at the broken sky in his world, and a shot cuts to Aerith looking at the blue sky (usually associated with Zack) as she wonders where Midgar is and how her mother is doing.

-Aerith seems to feel Zack's hand when he touches her hand in his world

-When Cloud "remembers" Zack, he remembers that Zack was in love with her

-In the dream date world, there are a lot of references that seem to imply Zack (the stamp dog design, his scenes cutting throughout, the feeling of the date giving CC vibes)

-In the end, Zack is at the church (where he and Aerith first met) and is surrounded by the yellow flowers (Aerith's favourite flowers and they
symbolize reunion)

-Also, Aerith still wears her bow and pink (in CC, Zack bought her the bow and suggested she wear pink when they next meet)

There may be more examples, but these are what I thought at the top of my head.

 

[thetriplerhyme]

If they were straightforward about this then we'd at least have one quote where they explain the ambiguity and explain what is and is not of for personal interpretation. But they don't, instead they consistently talk about personal interpretations in a more generalized sense while also saying they have their own interpretations for everything and that some people interpret stuff incorrectly.

It they actually wanted to be "straightforward" then they'd say something like:

This is what I'm referring to I agree with ambiguity of the whole context because of putting scenes fuels desire of those crazy C/A

To be fair on devs I guess this is their way to follow original story itself (dont get me wrong I respect that its alright) also if you look into Cloud's non verbal actions its actually pretty clear..

That doesn't make him a Clerith but this fandom has no understanding of nuance.

I remember when NTPK song feedback (FF7 MUSIC that says Aerith made this song for everyone not just for Cloud)

was released one crazy fans said 'Are they not listening to Hamaguchi?'

I mean this is a groupwork and he's not one sided but again its easy to misunderstood cuz of his statements.

@imach0c0 i genuinely cannot remember the exact interview when did he said that

 

[SilverSisu]

Why even have discussions when only one of us is right, and the rest of us are all wrong?

Don't know about you but i never claimed to be right. I was just going with the statements the devs have given us over the years. I'd happily be wrong in this one.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

Regarding the koibito note, that Aerith died before she could meet or talk to Cloud. Perhaps she developed "love" for Cloud but was unable to figure out what kind of "love" it was because she died. If this Aerith is the same one from COLW, I can see why her feelings are conflicted because this is her first time meeting Cloud after death. However, after going on the "date" with Cloud, perhaps its through having that experience with Cloud, where she comes to the realization that the "like" she initially thought she had for him is not necessarily that. Meaning, its perhaps leaning into an emotional love, not a romantic love

Hmmm I will say the suki Aerith talks about is still sounding romantic. Because suki implies romance. But we have two different types of love, of suki here. Koi used to express affection and romantic love in terms of admiring or an infatuation etc and rennai which is romantic but more like love at first sight, that is a deeper bond. If we go by LS white Aerith can very much feel koi for Cloud but if you read Ultimanias her relationship with Zack is described as re'nai.

Suki here is not implying she does feel anything platonic like just friends or sibling love in truth. She likes Cloud romantically but isn't sure the extent of that. She isn't sure how deep it goes. Like does she like him as just a crush or is it deeper than that. While in Lifestream white she was saying koibito in a sure way. She saw it as koi.

Now she knows it's some type of suki but what kind? Koi or re'nai? Or just a crush? She isn't sure.

All these are romantic feelings however. Just for her now it's not as defined.

Edit: Yes platonic feelings can we included and she could wonder about these toobut I think general the context is conflicted romantic feelings. Rather saying than do I love Cloud romantically or not. It's I like Cloud but what does that mean?

But just saying she very obviously is telling Cloud she likes as is is attracted to him. Romantically. "I wonder what kind of like this is" implies she isn't sure how deep that goes however.

Also no I wouldn't call it pure retcon, more like with this Aerith they toned down her feelings compared to LS White who may still exist somewhere who knows what they're doing with that. But by doing so they definitely changed things.

Edit: for clarity

 

[Aurenare]

Don't know about you but i never claimed to be right. I was just going with the statements the devs have given us over the years. I'd happily be wrong in this one.

You were awfully quick coming up wirh all those "pertaining" quotes. Please pray tell, where did you find them, all so neatly appropriate and organized to the discussed subject?

Also, I am pretty sure all of those quotes have been either debunked or correctly contextualized either by Squall_of_SeeD's article or in one of these threads, as they have been used ad nauseum by Cleriths.

 

[AncientGrimoire]

Don't know about you but i never claimed to be right. I was just going with the statements the devs have given us over the years. I'd happily be wrong in this one.

The thing is, the retrilogy alone has shown a desire to (I personally think) make things more clearer, to fall back on an often repeated quote of Nojima’s, “leave things less open to interpretation”.

A lot of the statements (not all) were from around the time of Advent Children. Over 15 or so years ago now. In that time, we have had Crisis Core, Remake, Traces of Two Pasts, and now Rebirth.

And Crisis Core being remastered for modern consoles to drive home the importance of Zack, and I think to clue in audiences starting their journey with Remake (and not the original) that Zack is also important to Aerith. Not to mention Crisis Core also heavily depicts the importance Tifa has to Cloud.

All of the above instalments in the compilation have clearly, but also gradually, shown such a case where they are very much, no longer seeking to leave things ambiguous as they had done previously, in the Advent Children era of FF7.

Nojima has released two novellas now where Cloud and Tifa’s feelings for each other are made explicit (but not yet to each other, because that’s being saved for the Lifestream in Part 3)

Whether it’s a retcon to some, or a desire to expand upon existing ideas, everyone’s personal mileages as to this may vary.

But the statements they made several years ago now do not speak to the intent they have started to show with the recent entries in the compilation.

 

[SilverSisu]

Hmmm I will say the suki Aerith talks about is still sounding romantic. Because suki implies romance. But we have two different types of love, of suki here. Koi used to express affection and romantic love in terms of admiring or an infatuation etc and rennai which is romantic but more like love at first sight, that is a deeper bond. If we go by LS white Aerith can very much feel koi for Cloud but if you read Ultimanias her relationship with Zack is described as re'nai.

Suki here is not implying anything platonic like just friends or sibling love. She knows she likes Cloud Romantically just not the extent of that. She isn't sure how deep it goes. Like does she like him as just a crush or is it deeper than that. While in Lifestream white she was saying koibito in a sure way. She saw it as koi.

Now she knows it's suki but what kind? Koi or rennai? Or just a crush? She isn't sure.

All are romantic feelings however. Just for her now it's not as defined.

So you are interpreting this in a way that Aerith has a crush on Cloud but in the end Zack is Aerith's true romantic love?

Is that what you are implying? Sounds pretty plausible theory if you ask me.

 

[imach0c0]

Hmmm I will say the suki Aerith talks about is still definitely romantic. Because suki implies romance. But we have two different types of love, of suki here. Koi used to express affection and romantic love in terms of admiring or an infatuation etc and rennai which is romantic but more like love at first sight, that is a deeper bond. If we go by LS white Aerith can very much feel koi for Cloud but if you read Ultimanias her relationship with Zack is described as re'nai.

Suki here is not implying anything platonic like just friends or sibling love. She knows she likes Cloud Romantically just not the extent of that. She isn't sure how deep it goes. Like does she like him as just a crush or is it deeper than that. While in Lifestream white she was saying koibito in a sure way. She saw it as koi.

Now she knows it's suki but what kind? Koi or rennai? Or just a crush? She isn't sure.

All are romantic feelings however. Just for her now it's not as defined.

I see what you mean with Koi and Rennai.

In the JP dialogue, Aerith says: there are many types of "suki (love)", I wonder what that is for me. I interpreted that as Aerith developed a romantic love for Cloud, however since she is now uncertain, it became platonic/emotional love because it doesn't go beyond infatuation.

 

[imach0c0]

I see what you mean with Koi and Rennai.

In the JP dialogue, Aerith says: there are many types of "suki (like)", I wonder what that is for me. I interpreted that as Aerith developed a romantic love for Cloud, however since she is now uncertain, it became platonic/emotional love because it doesn't go beyond infatuation.

 

[thetriplerhyme]

What is your opinion on Nojima calling Cloud and Aerith koibito and on the way to a smile novel stating that Cloud is the most important person in Aerith's life. Zack doesn't even get mentioned.

I have a feeling that the ending will be ambiguous, open ended and left for players to interpret. Otherwise it would retcon the novel.

The exact line is she describe Cloud as a symbol of his beloved, like a lover a friend.
(I try to look for exact JP context)

Cloud is like a symbol of everything Aerith wanted to protect because Zack died and he is the who fulfilled all of his promise to her (taking her to places Sky not scary*, meeting a lot of people)

Aerith in CCR doesnt have much friends (actually since she is a child) and it was actually Zack who showed her all this possibilities..

 

[imach0c0]

How do you edit posts?

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

I see what you mean with Koi and Rennai.

In the JP dialogue, Aerith says: there are many types of "suki (love)", I wonder what that is for me. I interpreted that as Aerith developed a romantic love for Cloud, however since she is now uncertain, it became platonic/emotional love because it doesn't go beyond infatuation.

Well that's the thing she isn't sure it if goes beyond infatuationor is more. It could. And that might be why how devs justify a version of her calls him her koibito "for she had loved him" in the LifestreamWhite. If they connect these two moments.

But it could also now just be a crush and that's it. She is conflicted.

The difference and "kind of retcon" is in LS White she didn't question it and here this version of her does question her feelings.
Under what you type, under the post there is an edit button. After you post it.

 

[Rin]

Hmmm I will say the suki Aerith talks about is still sounding romantic. Because suki implies romance. But we have two different types of love, of suki here. Koi used to express affection and romantic love in terms of admiring or an infatuation etc and rennai which is romantic but more like love at first sight, that is a deeper bond. If we go by LS white Aerith can very much feel koi for Cloud but if you read Ultimanias her relationship with Zack is described as re'nai.

Suki here is not implying anything platonic like just friends or sibling love. She knows she likes Cloud Romantically just not the extent of that. She isn't sure how deep it goes. Like does she like him as just a crush or is it deeper than that. While in Lifestream white she was saying koibito in a sure way. She saw it as koi.

Now she knows it's suki but what kind? Koi or re'nai? Or just a crush? She isn't sure.

All are romantic feelings however. Just for her now it's not as defined.

But just saying she very obviously is telling Cloud she likes as is is attracted to him. Romantically. "I wonder what kind of like this is" implies she isn't sure how deep that goes however.

Also no I wouldn't call it pure retcon, more like with this Aerith they toned down her feelings compared to LS White who may still exist somewhere who knows what they're doing with that. But by doing so they definitely changed things.

Can't "suki" also be used non-romantically though? Especially for Aerith who uses a very childlike way of speaking in JP (which is what makes her so hard to translate, I've heard). Like a child would use "suki" for a crush but also use it for liking candy, which may add further nuance to Aerith using that word in particular when musing aloud.

Correct me if I'm wrong though because I am not well versed enough in JP or Aerith's JP speaking patterns to know for sure.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

So you are interpreting this in a way that Aerith has a crush on Cloud but in the end Zack is Aerith's true romantic love?

Is that what you are implying? Sounds pretty plausible theory if you ask me.

That is just my guess with the idea of "What kind of like this is." And on why the devs would even have her say there is a difference. Because the difference is not between romantic and not. It's implied to be types of suki. Types of romantic feelings.

And why else make this comparison?

 

[imach0c0]

Well that's the thing she isn't sure it if goes beyond infatuationor is more. It could. And that might be why how devs justify a version of her calls him her koibito "for she had loved him" in the LifestreamWhite. If they connect these two moments.

But it could also now just be a crush and that's it. She is conflicted.

The difference and "kind of retcon" is in LS White she didn't question it and here this version of her does question her feelings.
Uder what you type, under the post there is an edit button. After you post it.

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TBH, the koibito part in COLSW and Aerith's dialogue in the dream date is confusing. Though I am open to all sides of analysis and argument, I'm not sure what to make of it.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

Can't "suki" also be used non-romantically though? Especially for Aerith who uses a very childlike way of speaking in JP (which is what makes her so hard to translate, I've heard). Like a child would use "suki" for a crush but also use it for liking candy, which may add further nuance to Aerith using that word in particular when musing aloud.

Correct me if I'm wrong though because I am not well versed enough in JP or Aerith's JP speaking patterns to know for sure.

I mean in another context it could. But usually it implies romance. I don't think in this context it is anything but romantic. She outright tells him Cloud ga suki. That comes across as romantic in implications. Because before she was warning herself not to fall in love "suki ni naranaide" and she just had a dream date where she wanted to do date stuff with him and she talks about where they stand and tells him Sorry before hugging him and just the call back to the lines "It was that special kind of like" for Tifa in TOTP. Tifa's special kind of like is love.

All these contexts are romantic. It's part of the conflict between her feelings for Zack and Cloud too. If the suki wasn't romantic there would be no conflict. Also it would be strange for any version of herself to be saying "suki ni narainide".

I just don't see how it follows this trend to suddenly go. Yeah no never mind. I don't think that fits.