SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[nars305]

If there is ever made to be canon ships for the LTD, imo that would weaken the overall story and experience. That to me is why there are options for other characters to date. I say this because at the end of the day, it's a side quest. Who ends up with who isn't the main point of FFVII, and imo it shouldn't be.

The story, imo, works whether or not anyone has romantic feelings for anyone else.

I've now heard both Cleriths and Clotis insist that their ship is canon and the other side just "doesn't care about FFVII or its characters" and honestly that attitude, from both sides, is getting really bothersome.

Not to mention, does whether or not the ship is canon really matter that much to your ship? I'm sure the validation would always be really nice, but you can still enjoy your ship all you want either way.

One discussion I'd love to have more of is the potential validity of Aerti or Clarret. Let's give love to the gay ships just as much as the straight ones I say!

I don’t really see it as a side quest, seeing as the main character’s identity crisis includes his feelings for a girl.

All the novels also specifically bring in the nature of Cloud and Tifa’s feelings/relationship.

There are several themes in the game, and I think one of them is definitely love.

 

[Suffi]

They are saying that in response for some current bad takes. This one for example: "And it's really really weird to think the devs would make a character that kisses a woman because he can't be with another which is the current topic."

I don't know any 'hot takes' because I really don't pay attention to it. But are you referring to or some clerith fans referring to the GS date between Tifa and Cloud? I have to admit, both Tifa and Aerith's GS date adding that bit about Zack was weird. I never understood why they writers decided to put that there.

 

[abzy1200]

I don't know any 'hot takes' because I really don't pay attention to it. But are you referring to or some clerith fans referring to the GS date between Tifa and Cloud? I have to admit, both Tifa and Aerith's GS date adding that bit about Zack was weird. I never understood why they writers decided to put that there.

It's because Cloud is sort of a walking ghost of Zack, he's very relevant to Cloud's issues.

 

[Sacky]

Its just denying the story when theres multiple confirmations. The LTD isn't even about the ships; its about people not accepting the story.
Which obviously sounds biased, but from the compilations onwards, its been pretty obvious and theres even confirmation, though i can't be bothered sending the same quotes and ultimania posts most people can tell just from the movie or books. If you want just look at previous posts weve discuseed every possible angle of this triangle and every claim there is.

 

[Sacky]

I don't know any 'hot takes' because I really don't pay attention to it. But are you referring to or some clerith fans referring to the GS date between Tifa and Cloud? I have to admit, both Tifa and Aerith's GS date adding that bit about Zack was weird. I never understood why they writers decided to put that there.

Because Tifa and Aerith both don't want to mention Zack to Cloud they both know hes remembering it wrong. Theres a lot of conversations off screen they have clearly had. Plus storywise right after Nibelhiem Cloud has remembered Zack died in the river (obviously wrong) so hes remembered that Zack and Aerith liked each other and wants to find out if Tifa told Aerith. Since we know Aerith has been looking for information, and said she still liked Zack to Cloud. Basically Cloud is being a good friend. While the girls know something else is going on

 

[abzy1200]

I have seen CTs that are just if not more misogynistic. Even had to block a few lately. I have personally come across some as welll that haven't been great nor the most honest either. But that doesn't paint the entire fandom because of the choices of individuals. I've met just as many CTs that are honest and against misogyny and have called it out too.
And that doesn't absolve anyone to say oh they do it too so we're not in the wrong. That's just deflection. If anyone is being misogynistic or unfair they should get called out. CA or CT alike. But I don't appreciate this tactic of not accepting the wrongdoings of people "on my own side/team just because of the actions of others. In an environment like that we can only get echo chambers and no one taking accountability.

In fact, I'll even name a Cloti who needs to stfu: Silverwield

She is always spewing horrible things about Aerith.

 

[Suffi]

Cloud set a life goal to be a "special existance" to Tifa, and is now raising a child with her after confirming mutual feelings of love on the night before they fought Sepiroth.

The problem I have with Clerith is that it being canon in any major capacity sort of makes Cloud out to be a prick, straight up.

Unless part 3 changes the highwind scene 'love' scene to not to be based of high affinity anymore. So what I'm gathering from your viewpoint if that scene is canon and also based on high affinity, that means all Aerith's and Tifa's high affinity scene are canon, Correct?

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

From a

I don't know any 'hot takes' because I really don't pay attention to it. But are you referring to or some clerith fans referring to the GS date between Tifa and Cloud? I have to admit, both Tifa and Aerith's GS date adding that bit about Zack was weird. I never understood why they writers decided to put that there.

By a narrative point the truth about Zack is the connection between our three characters:
1.Cloud whose identity is currently influenced by Jenova using memories of Zack as a base,
2.Tifa who currently is trying to figure out what happened with Cloud and who is unsure of her own memories and
3.Aerith who is currently conflicted over her feelings for Cloud as a betrayal of Zack who she is either in denial he died or isn't sure what happened to him so she has no closure.

The truth of what really happened to Zack is the story of Cloud and the truth of the mysteries of Jenova and even a thread that leads into Sephiroth's plan. Because he wants to use that truth to break his will. Cloud just figured out Aerith and Zack used to date. It triggered a memory that is incorrect but it reminded him Zack wanted to get back to Aerith so he really feels he should tell her.

However at this point both Tifa and Aerith have figured out something is wrong with Cloud and so they both avoid the subject.

Zack is brought up because of this important plot point that just got brought up before hand as a hint to the truth of Cloud's memories and what happened in Nibelhiem.

 

[abzy1200]

Unless part 3 changes the highwind scene 'love' scene to not to be based of high affinity anymore. So what I'm gathering from your viewpoint if that scene is canon and also based on high affinity, that means all Aerith's and Tifa's high affinity scene are canon, Correct?

Uh, no It's not an assumption purely based off high affection, Ultimanias treat it as if it happened.

This is in Tifa's character profile in the Crisis Core ultimania:

 

[Suffi]

Because Tifa and Aerith both don't want to mention Zack to Cloud they both know hes remembering it wrong. Theres a lot of conversations off screen they have clearly had. Plus storywise right after Nibelhiem Cloud has remembered Zack died in the river (obviously wrong) so hes remembered that Zack and Aerith liked each other and wants to find out if Tifa told Aerith. Since we know Aerith has been looking for information, and said she still liked Zack to Cloud. Basically Cloud is being a good friend. While the girls know something else is going on

I get that. But my question is why have that narrative happen during the GS dates? Maybe place that somewhere else, so people wouldn't get confused as to why Cloud is asking this now.

 

[Sacky]

Unless part 3 changes the highwind scene 'love' scene to not to be based of high affinity anymore. So what I'm gathering from your viewpoint if that scene is canon and also based on high affinity, that means all Aerith's and Tifa's high affinity scene are canon, Correct?

Pretty much the devs say the scenes are slightly removed from the story but they show Clouds bonds with each member correctly. High affinity seems to be what Cloud would be with each person and side missions i would count as canon since the game references them even if you never did them.

 

[imach0c0]

Unless part 3 changes the highwind scene 'love' scene to not to be based of high affinity anymore. So what I'm gathering from your viewpoint if that scene is canon and also based on high affinity, that means all Aerith's and Tifa's high affinity scene are canon, Correct?

Just curious - what is your interpretation of the character relationships? Do you think Cloud has romantic feelings for both Aerith and Tifa, one of them or neither?

 

[abzy1200]

I get that. But my question is why have that narrative happen during the GS dates? Maybe place that somewhere else, so people wouldn't get confused as to why Cloud is asking this now.

Not any single date "happened" per se, but the relationship and emotions portrayed between Cloud and the characters are accurate.

 

[Sacky]

I get that. But my question is why have that narrative happen during the GS dates? Maybe place that somewhere else, so people wouldn't get confused as to why Cloud is asking this now.

It is strange cause it gives those dates plot relevance, which is what they say was slightly removed from the story?. It would have been good somewhere else but since it happens after Nibelhiem like directly i guess there wasn't another opportunity for Tifa to ask Aerith. So if they didn't happen then Cloud still doesn't know if Tifa has spoken to Aerith about Zack then?

 

[Suffi]

Just curious - what is your interpretation of the character relationships? Do you think Cloud has romantic feelings for both Aerith and Tifa, one of them or neither?

both.

 

[imach0c0]

It is strange cause it gives those dates plot relevance, which is what they say was slightly removed from the story?. It would have been good somewhere else but since it happens after Nibelhiem like directly i guess there wasn't another opportunity for Tifa to ask Aerith. So if they didn't happen then Cloud still doesn't know if Tifa has spoken to Aerith about Zack then?

I can see it also being added to add drama.

both.

When or where has Cloud showed romantic feelings towards Aerith?

 

[Sacky]

both.

I saw that for OG as a possibility but Rebirth at least to me, showed that Cloud cares for Aerith a great deal but shuts down any romance. Like when Aerith mentions shes on a date with Cloud in Kalm and Tifa reacts, then Cloud has a look of pure fear on his face and horror that Tifa might get the wrong idea, then when Aerith says like or Liiking, Cloud just says whats going on you have been weird all day. The fact thats an alternate Aerith also is very confusing.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

I'm just talking about what I see, what's shared here every day.

I never said there were only angels in Cloti.

But I'm sorry, lately (and above all with the Remake and Rebirth period) it's not really the Cloti side that needs to prove anything. They're more in a defensive position.

And once again. I don't give a shit about ships. I'm just following the story of FF7 as I've been told and as I understand it. That's as far as it goes. Tifa is a character in her own right. I don't care about couples. The game decided to make her part of the hero's personal story. That's all there is to it. If it told me she didn't give a damn about him, it would be the same thing and I'll be the first one to defend Cloud and Aerith.

So yeah, I may not know what I'm talking about. I never been a part of this war. Never had a blog or something like that.

I'm just tired of defending the game's story.

Yeah don't get me wrong. I'm not accusing you of being bias. Our experiences in fandom are all different. And depending on what side we are, how long we've been in fandom the circles we hang out in we can definitely have different perspectives.

But yeah the story is just the story. I don't really think it needs to be proven. CTs already have debated in the past long enough. And I think it's definitely time to just enjoy how far they have come like there is even a kiss scene and Tifa is now extremely well loved worldwide. When I first joined the fandom she was slandered as a side character so this is huge.

And my belief is the writers need to finish their story and we can see then where we stand. Once every piece is in our hands to figure out.

As long as people are courteous they can discuss their views in the meantimes.

 

[Rose Alive]

If there is ever made to be canon ships for the LTD, imo that would weaken the overall story and experience.

Cloud joined the army to impress Tifa, snapped out of his mako poisioning by just seeing her face, in Rebirth he went back into his catatonic state until he realized Tifa was still alive after the mako pool incident. Only one girl gets a kiss at the GS. Tifa realizes he loves her in the Lifestream, they have sex under the highwind, they live together, sleep in the same bed and raise children while Aerith and Zack are shown to be together in the Lifestream.

How are there no canon couples? And how would it weaken the story to confirm the couples? Romance absolutely can have no place in a story, but when you base the hero's adventure off impressing a girl he is over the moon for, and then he continues the story by her side, well, the romance has its place and it matters.

 

[SilverSisu]

You guys really do hate clerith fans.

No we don't hate Clerith fans. I'll tell you a secret. I actually enjoy seeing Cloud and Aerith having their little moments because it gives depth to these characters. Cloud being mentally broken Zack wannabe and having a major crush on Aerith and Aerith having a major crush on Cloud because he reminds her of Zack are important pieces of their character arcs.

Also Aerith realizing that Cloud is not Zack 2.0 and that he could never replace her true love Zack and Tifa fixing Cloud's broken psyche and helping Cloud finding himself and his lost feelings towards Tifa are what finishes their character arcs.

I actually pick Aerith as Gold saucer date because

1) It fits the storyline the best. Aerith singing would feel out of place if she is not going to be starring as Rosa.

2) Aerith admitting that she sees Zack in Cloud is a big red flag and even though Aerith claims that she is over Zack she clearly isn't.

3) i feel this game should be a swan song for Cloud and Aerith. I want to let them have this one last moment.

4) Cloud and Tifa are eventually going to get the lifestream experience where Tifa fixes Cloud's psyche and Cloud finds his true self and his lost romantic feelings towards Tifa.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

I get that. But my question is why have that narrative happen during the GS dates? Maybe place that somewhere else, so people wouldn't get confused as to why Cloud is asking this now.

Because this was also the same narrative happening in the dates in OG. Those dates are about that mystery. Except now they added that Cloud knows about Zack and is confused thinking he was the grunt soldier.

 

[Suffi]

Not any single date "happened" per se, but the relationship and emotions portrayed between Cloud and the characters are accurate.

I'm really sorry, I don't think i'm getting across what I'm trying to say. Let me try this again.
During either Tifa or Aerith's GS date - Cloud mentions about Zack - What I found really odd about this interaction is that Cloud is either on a date with Aerith or Tifa (whoever you had high affinity with) and mentions about 'Aerith's feelings for Zack' according to the Tifa date or if Tifa mentioned Zack during the Aerith date. Because he on a date with one of these girls, why are you bringing up someone else's relationship? I was watching the streamer Rogerbase when he was watching the Tifa GS date and he was yelling at Cloud, 'don't you bring up Aerith ...' It was really funny to watch. But he is right, Cloud you idiot you are on a date with Tifa why are you bringing up Aerith.

So my point is why did the writer decided to add this line of dialogue here on the gondola? Why not add it while they were walking or something? Or do this in another scene? It was just a really odd choice to have it during the GS date and not somewhere different.

 

[Suffi]

Because this was also the same narrative happening in the dates in OG. Those dates are about that mystery. Except now they added that Cloud knows about Zack and is confused thinking he was the grunt soldier.

yeah you are right, that would make sense as to why that conversation happens there during Aerith's date. Still confused why Cloud wanted to talk about Aerith's relationship on Tifa date. Unless he was scared and didn't know what to talk about.

 

[Yoru]

Yeah don't get me wrong. I'm not accusing you of being bias. Our experiences in fandom are all different. And depending on what side we are, how long we've been in fandom the circles we hang out in we can definitely have different perspectives.

But yeah the story is just the story. I don't really think it needs to be proven. CTs already have debated in the past long enough and I think it's definitely time to just enjoy how far they have come like there is even a kiss scene and Tifa is now extremely well loved worldwide.

My belief is the writers need to finish their story and we can see then where we stand. Once every piece is in our hands to figure out.

As long as people are courteous they can discuss their views in the meantimes.

As we've both already discussed.

I'm convinced that there wasn't a single right answer when we only had FF7 OG as a reference. Nor did the developers. The game was designed to leave the choice up to the player. Even if the story was the same for everyone, your choices could change your interpretation.

Then came the compilation. I personally saw several signs of a change in direction. And that's when I chose my "camp".

And the more time goes by, the harder it is for me to give credit to Clerith (not the fans, I'm talking about those who aren't here to debate) because, in my opinion, it's not at all what this FF7 universe is telling us in 2024.

But I love Aerith. And yes I ship her with Zack. Not because I want her out of the way. It's just that's how I've been attached to her with the years.

So yes, we have to disagree some times but I'm more than happy to have you around to talk about FF7 !

 

[Sacky]

I'm really sorry, I don't think i'm getting across what I'm trying to say. Let me try this again.
During either Tifa or Aerith's GS date - Cloud mentions about Zack - What I found really odd about this interaction is that Cloud is either on a date with Aerith or Tifa (whoever you had high affinity with) and mentions about 'Aerith's feelings for Zack' according to the Tifa date or if Tifa mentioned Zack during the Aerith date. Because he on a date with one of these girls, why are you bringing up someone else's relationship? I was watching the streamer Rogerbase when he was watching the Tifa GS date and he was yelling at Cloud, 'don't you bring up Aerith ...' It was really funny to watch. But he is right, Cloud you idiot you are on a date with Tifa why are you bringing up Aerith.

So my point is why did the writer decided to add this line of dialogue here on the gondola? Why not add it while they were walking or something? Or do this in another scene? It was just a really odd choice to have it during the GS date and not somewhere different.

I think its meant to be funny to see Cloud fumble on Both dates mentioning the other Girl. The still has feelings for Zack is for Tifa to say actually its more complicated. Just a hint for players that its not just her feelings. Its Cloud remembering the death wrong, them not knowing what happened to Zack, and Tifa knowing that Zack was at Nibelhiem and wondering why Cloud can't remember or even knows the events. Its just a fun thing to be like its a lot more complicated than her just having feelings. It would have been nice in the main story but i guess afterwards its temple and he starts going crazy anyway.