SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[Maidenofwar]

The thing is the writer also does not say NPTK isn't a love song, if I remember right he said there's nothing wrong with love songs and there are elements of that but it's not only that, her feelings for Cloud, for Zack, but it's not only that. Loren and Uematsu seem to regard it as a love song, Loren was coached by SE about Cloud and Aerith's relationship and told what to look for about them. As for Hollow Kitase said Cloud had a hole from the loss of Aerith. If you go Aerith path it seems like she is singing to Cloud and he catches the flower petal.

The EC title change also doesn't change anything. Special Friend can still have romantic connotations and while it's not as quite as rigid as the original JP the meaning isn't entirely different. The event itself remains and Cloud and Aerith agree to go out again regardless of which answer the player picks. Aerith even flat out says it's Cloud she wants to find in the most recent version of the GS date. The original translation they went with for the title was rigid and unbending in a way that could be read as the One and only. However the JP (約束の相手/yakusoku no aite) for Promise-Promised Partner/someone I made a promise to/Companion of the promise essentially remains the same (the subject matter referred to)

So I don't think Kitase, Nojima, etc are failing in their execution, they simply want people to enjoy and explore all aspects.

Anyway I don't like infighting, I still try to stick to myself for the most part, though I've trying to engage a bit more without getting too personally involved, I try and avoid extremists.

 

[Sacky]

This is actually getting out of hand you have clerith content creators encouraging harrasement with messages like this??? Which sound like it would be about any other issue but in the replies its about that Damn Title. First off its scary how many people believe the devs where harassed with zero evidence over the title. Which would cause them to change it instantly. While the Tifa sabin skin wasn't changed, and Barret doesn't have any more skins. But evidence isn't required because thats the only way a translation can be changed? They seriously need to be held accountable for this. Its straight up encouraging harrasement this is crazy

 

[Skilganon]

You don't need to be a shipper to see that those initial english titles were horribly translated. When CA shippers claim SE "back-pedals" it's like they want the obvious mistake to be declared canon.

 

[Ryushikaze]

You don't need to be a shipper to see that those initial english titles were horribly translated. When CA shippers claim SE "back-pedals" it's like they want the obvious mistake to be declared canon.

That's exactly what they want. They want the erroneous title because despite it being wrong, it made it seem for a moment like CA was endgame. And that's all they want out of FF7. For "Aerith" to "Win" even if that's not what Aerith wants because it means they didn't back the wrong horse.

 

[Ryeleigh]

This is what worries me about how part 3 handles the ending. If it goes the way of the OG, I don't know how people are going to react. A lot of the hardcore CA shippers are going to feel like they were baited/burned, and to a degree, I think they would be correct. The theme songs to Remake and Rebirth, as well as the dream date, give very strong Clerith vibes. If Clerith doesn't happen in part 3, it's all going to seem like fan service and create a lot of resentment.

Perception is what matters. Most people, even neutral shippers look at these songs as CA songs.

You know, I'm genuinely asking if you've ever observed any other ships or so-called ship wars outside of FF7? SE could've removed every single "CA moment" and I guarantee you, those two would still get shipped just because Cloud is the main character and main characters get shipped with everyone in that same story, and Aerith is also one of the main female characters who isn't underage (not that that stops shippers either). People are shipping Noctis and Tifa, and those two aren't even in the same game.

In another fandom, people literally ripped their "perception" from wallpaper, lighting, clothes, cakes, cucumber water etc, even as the writers and actors repeatedly told them that "The ship is not a thing. It is not happening. Stop harassing and suicide-baiting the actors". And yet they still had a complete meltdown when, unsurprisingly, the fanon ship remained fanon and since then they've spent their online presence calling the creators and other fans toxic homophobes.

In yet another fandom, people ripped their "perception" from nonexistent and wrongly applied symbolism where, if those things were symbolic, they were symbolic of violation, trauma and isolation, not proof of romance for their ship. In this same fandom, people took an adult character entertaining underage girls like they were toddlers as proof of "flirting" and both shippers called the author a problematic homophobe for not making their ships canon.

And if we go back to FF7 Re-Trilogy, why is no one calling out SE for baiting Sephiroth/Cloud shippers? Do you know what "perception" their moments give? That of a stalker ex-boyfriend. (I'm only half-kidding.) But because of the story, genre and aimed demographic, most people understand that Sephiroth/Cloud isn't canon and it isn't going to be canon.

So why is that when it comes to CA, it's suddenly "baiting" just because CA is more plausible than Sephiroth/Cloud?

Aerith falling for Cloud or at least thinking she does was always a part of her character arc. And even sans that, they're friends. One of the themes of FF7 (at least to me) is that no matter how introverted you are, no matter how much you think you're "better" than others, you still need other people and bonds to survive. So yes, they were going to get moments together and those moments could always be perceived as shippy just because they're both beautiful twenty-somethings and friends.

That said, I still kind of wanted more moments with everyone, not just Cloud and one other character. And I'm still hoping for that Zack/Cloud date in P3. I don't care, give me a total fanservice DLC, I'll take it.

The other fandoms and ships are not named so as not to derail the conversation.

 

[Eerie]

I think people would approach the LTD better if they realised that Cloud cherishes the same way Zack and Aerith. Cloud's theme song is 100% about Zack, maybe about his own identity too that he loses when he loses Zack. The game and the devs could not be clearer, the song starts when they cross Zack's memory, the reason why we hear it without the lyrics (!!!!) is because... AERITH TOO MISSES ZACK (and there are no lyrics because they would've been different there). Zack links Cloud and Aerith in ways people are just not getting.

Aerith's theme song does have her feelings for Cloud and Zack but NOT ONLY. This is not a love song though it does sound like one: because Aerith cherishes all the connections she has had the occasion to make - because her life didn't allow her to make a lot of them, she feels lucky she has them and cherishes them. The Nojima interpretation 1000% makes Aerith the better character and I don't understand why people are hung onto it's for Cloud! No it's not. He's part of it, sure, but not only.

I beg people to look at those characters and understands them OUTSIDE of this freaking LT that just dirties everything it touches - the characters, their motivations, their relationships.

 

[Ryeleigh]

Zack links Cloud and Aerith in ways people are just not getting.

You know, it's both funny and frustrating how Zack gets ignored in these discussions. Like, he's a part of the LTD too! Especially now in Re-Trilogy! xD

 

[Maidenofwar]

If they removed all scenes between Cloud and Aerith then no, I (probably) wouldn't ship them, not seriously anyway and I wouldn't feel very real feelings whenever things happen. Like I ship aeriseph but I know there's not a snowballs chance in hell of them regularly holding hands or hugging in game (inb4 SE does a group hug in pt3) and I would be on slim pickings and lean food as far as official content goes, no snowballs chance in hell apart from "how can you want this Sephiroth ... how can you want an entirety of loneliness..." I don't have that talent so I doubt I would be making CA content since I wouldn't know if I could for something I wasn't that invested in.

Whereas something like EC I know they're going to put real work in, I don't have to do anything. It might not be a console game but it was a labour of love and homage to OG making all four original dates match so closely.

I don't think EC can be completely dismissed because it has story (Glenn, Matt, Lucia, young Sephiroth, etc) that ties into the trilogy, I think the devs want people to play it or at least watch the scenes, because they mentioned spoilers for pt3 and things like there will be part 3 news by EC 2nd anniversary, etc.

Edit; Zack can't be ignored because the devs said there will be much more Zack in pt3. Zack apparently thinks Aerith likes Cloud and is seemingly supportive of them, this is something that has to be addressed in pt3. This goes for Cloud stans as much as anyone else, Zack maybe only had two lines or whatever in the OG, but he has much more content now and will continue to be given it. So I don't know but being anti Zack and seemingly resentful or hateful of him because you think he's taken over or something ... might as well let it go. I mainly think of this one Cloud stan in streams I keep seeing, that always seems unhappy with Zack. Not a shipper, they always seem to try and shut down ship talk but yeah.

I realise this might seem hypocritical of me, but especially after Rebirth, and the devs saying even more Zack pt3, might as well enjoy the ride?

 

[Eerie]

is seemingly supportive of them

I really don't think he is supportive of them. I'm not sure what makes you think that, but I think Zack feels helpless; he wants to save Aerith despite her loving someone else, and he's clearly annoyed at Cloud when he encounters him at the end too. But, it's not like he has a choice, he doesn't understand how Cloud and Aerith know each other in the first place so...

 

[Maidenofwar]

He might want to save Aerith but Cloud's the one he tells to save her. In JP he makes the lovebird sounds when Marlene says Aerith likes Cloud. I've seen a few different translations for this (couple of love birds huh/isn't that sweet/etc)

I think Zack would be annoyed or say I kind of hate you a little Cloud, but ultimately wouldn't try and jeopardise what he might think is going on because ... Zack's not a bad guy. I think he still treasures the time he spent with Cloud and Aerith too.

Maybe I'm wrong but I don't think Zack is going to proactively or assertively pursue Aerith again. I think it might be something more like Maiden where they were teasing over whether Cloud or Zack performed the limit better, they will be helping in the lifestream and have awareness of what's going on with Cloud and Tifa even if they don't see every detail. Zack will be gentle and let Aerith come to her realisations in her own time. I think there might be some initial awkwardness and confusion between them as they rediscover and build on things.

I want to address Cissnei also. One of her lines (Woodland Vigil) is something like she would be sad if Cloud couldn't remember how they knew each other, then she addresses Aerith "don't worry it's not like that" as if she thought Aerith might have got the wrong impression about her designs. It's such lines that make people think CA are couply.

 

[Eerie]

He might want to save Aerith but Cloud's the one he tells to save her. In JP he makes the lovebird sounds when Marlene says Aerith likes Cloud. I've seen a few different translations for this (couple of love birds huh/isn't that sweet/etc)

I think you're way off. The fact that he says that, whatever the translation, is the information sinking in. It doesn't mean he's supportive, if you look at his face, he's clearly pained.

I think Zack would be annoyed or say I kind of hate you a little Cloud, but ultimately wouldn't try and jeopardise what he might think is going on because ... Zack's not a bad guy. I think he still treasures the time he spent with Cloud and Aerith too.

Of course Zack's not a bad guy, that's why if he thinks Aerith doesn't love him anymore, then he certainly will not act like an abusive boyfriend.

Maybe I'm wrong but I don't think Zack is going to proactively or assertively pursue Aerith again. I think it might be something more like Maiden where they were teasing over whether Cloud or Zack performed the limit better, they will be helping in the lifestream and have awareness of what's going on with Cloud and Tifa even if they don't see every detail. Zack will be gentle and let Aerith come to her realisations in her own time. I think there might be some initial awkwardness and confusion between them as they rediscover and build on things.

I am not sure, but I think we may get the answer during their reunion. Personally, I think it's something he will ask right away, because he's that kind of guy, and I expect Aerith to actually be the one to run towards him and hug him. Or they will look at each other from a distance but it will fade away; I expect Aerith's introspection about her feelings for Cloud and Zack to happen before she meets up with Zack - she definitely has the information now about the dream date, which she hadn't when she died, so I think this will come into play for her introspection. She is not in her church yet, and I believe their reunion will be there, as well as their kiss. Zack has done everything in his power to save her, now it's going to be her turn to walk towards him.

I want to address Cissnei also. One of her lines (Woodland Vigil) is something like she would be sad if Cloud couldn't remember how they knew each other, then she addresses Aerith "don't worry it's not like that" as if she thought Aerith might have got the wrong impression about her designs. It's such lines that make people think CA are couply.

... I don't think Cissnei is part of the equation at all. Zack and Aerith and Cloud and Tifa will have their own resolution each that will answer the LT, I am pretty sure about that. If Cloud confesses to Tifa as I suspect, then what will CA say? I'm sorry but at some point, CAs have to understand that the kiss absolutely did kill the LT because Cloud made his choice before Aerith even died. SE will have Cloud only kiss and confess to one girl, because it is how they present their stories. This is their answer to the LT, just as the LSS was the answer in the OG: Cloud only loved one girl, and that girl is Tifa. There is simply no place for Aerith in his heart as a romance partner as the story is written. The LSS shows exactly that, his important memories, his core character is about those memories.

But this does not mean that Aerith doesn't have any importance in Cloud's heart: she is a cherished friend, as much as Zack is. He carries post OG and before ACC a lot of heavy feelings towards those two: Zack died for him, and he failed to protect Aerith. He will always cherish them, yes, but neither are the ones he cherishes as his romance partner. As for the fact that people think of CA as a couple yes! That's part of the illusion itself.

 

[GamerSkull]

There’s no way Zack is supportive of CA. He’s very clearly bothered by it.

That being said, Zack is a good person and he still loves Aerith so he will still do everything he can to save her even if his love is unrequited in the end. This is why he tells Cloud to save her as well… because to Zack, Aerith’s well-being matters more than his personal feelings. So if Cloud has a better shot at making her both happy and safe than he can… then he will pass the torch. But he still loves Aerith and probably never give up on being with her either.

I think the only thing that would make Zack truly give up on Aerith is if she rejects him to his face (but I dunno if she would do that).

By the way, stories tend to also reward those kinds of characters in the end so I definitely would not count him out of the equation of this LTD yet. But I guess only Part 3 will tell…

 

[Skilganon]

The thing is the writer also does not say NPTK isn't a love song, if I remember right he said there's nothing wrong with love songs and there are elements of that but it's not only that, her feelings for Cloud, for Zack, but it's not only that. Loren and Uematsu seem to regard it as a love song, Loren was coached by SE about Cloud and Aerith's relationship and told what to look for about them. As for Hollow Kitase said Cloud had a hole from the loss of Aerith. If you go Aerith path it seems like she is singing to Cloud and he catches the flower petal.

This is the sort of thing I'm talking about. It's likely someone told Loren Alred the song was about the CA relationship, which is why she said this in interviews. Similar with Uematsu. But then Nojima gets on Twitter months later and says the song is about everyone. This makes it look like the meaning of the song was changed retro-actively. If NPTK was always about everyone, why wasn't Loren told about this? It seems like there's some miscommunication within the company.

I never said I wanted CA moments removed, aside from the Dream Date and the theme song. NPTK is the most important song in the game. It has meta significance. When the singer herself says it's about CA, how can anyone say the shippers are wrong? How can anyone be considered delusional if they think the theme of reunion is going to pay off at some point in the CA relationship after they hear it? It's completely reasonable for one to conclude this if they don't have any previous knowledge of FFVII. Thus, reasonable they would feel baited later on if it doesn't go that way.

@Ryeleigh I've never been a part of any other shipping community, or followed any other media with a large shipper following. A lot of the examples you reference seem pretty dire, so maybe I am over-reacting. Maybe it's just a symptom of the Internet, anonymity, social media.

I think the focus should be less on the misconceptions held by CA shippers, and more about how SE is handling things. Whether intentionally or unintentionally, they are deliberately feeding the fire that is the LTD.

 

[eleamaya]

Maybe I'm wrong but I don't think Zack is going to proactively or assertively pursue Aerith again. I think it might be something more like Maiden where they were teasing over whether Cloud

You know, Maiden only works because the Zack portrayed in this non-canon novel is OOC. Even all of my mutual Zeriths agree that he deserves to be rejected by Aerith. I mean, do you think the canon Zack we know from Rebirth would say this line knowing she's dead?

"You died too? At least you held out longer than me. What am I supposed to say? 'I'm sorry for your loss'? Something like that, I guess."​

This line too, after how desperate he wanted to return to her in CC and how faithful he is shown in Rebirth, do you think he could say something like this?

"Of all the girls I got close with, you're the best one, Aerith. If I'd been able to return to Midgar after that mission, maybe we could've gone steady."​

CRAP.

This is funny and frustrated me because whenever CTs talk about Maiden, they tend to blame Aerith rejecting him without addressing how OOC Zack character is. CAs too, because they always love this version of Zack, advocating how playboy he is, and hate how CC change it. Canon Zack is someone who doesnt give Aerith reason not to love him (even though she isn't sure she's the only one, Zack can prove it if they reunited... because the devs had said in CCFF7 interview back then that the scene in the beach between Zack & Cissnei is made to allude to Aerith's line in OG about he had another girlfriend, and it's proved they made him canonically faithful).

Honestly, knowing canon Zack's character, if Aerith didn't address the issue first when they finally reunite, Zack would ask. "I heard you like Cloud." As @GamerSkull said, if she rejects him to his face, then he would truly give up on her. And if this happened, I couldn't imagine they would do teasing or banter after that, like Maiden (because Maiden!Zack isn't even serious about his feelings as fuck to be broken). But if she relly did it, it would mark her bad, even for casual gamers, for rejecting a first love (not someone who is completely stranger or just friends) who is devoted to her. I dont want this to happen to her. Aerith can admit she loves Cloud in extend degree and Zack would understand after learning the reason and the situatiun, but it doesnt mean she's compeletely over him to reject him. She loves him.

 

[Heartstation]

@Eerie, we've had this conversation before. Perception is what matters. Most people, even neutral shippers look at these songs as CA songs.

If the writer of the song has to intervene to tell people what the song is actually about, and CA shippers respond by saying he's "back-pedalling", well then those CA shippers may be wrong, but it's still a failure of execution from the very beginning that anyone had this impression.

I'm simply acknowledging there has been a failure to communicate on SE's part. The EC title change is just the latest example. I just wish they would fail less at this.

Also, SE has used both Hollow and NPTK in marketing around Cloud and Aerith, so some people at the company view them as CA songs. The Rebirth concert shows CA date scenes while these songs play. This sort of thing creates an expectation. It's not story or canon related, it's the perception.

Anyone saying Hollow or even the Rebirth Orchestra is generally perceived as Clerith is incredibly disingenuous, as so many of us have actually been to the orchestra ourselves and know that there isn’t a Clerith slant there whether during or outside of NPTK playing. Truly neutral fans going in do not come away with the idea that CA was favored in any purposeful way, just that Aerith was particularly honored.

I also disagree that most people look at these songs as CA songs.

At this point, CA revisionists have crafted their own explanations for several canon story beats to make sense of why Tifa gets unambiguously romantic moments, and are primarily responsible for driving up their own expectations. At this point, devs coming out & clarifying things—as nice as that would be—will likely not change their minds. Their reasoning is now that SE is being actively pressured by CTs to depict the game through a CT lens & so commentary from Square is clearly not respected by them anymore. This explanation is positioned in a way that can be used to undermine anything said by devs now.

It’s happening as we speak, CA revisionists are now claiming the change of date titles were due to fan pressure & completely ignoring the literal notification text detailing the initial titles were incorrect to begin with (literally described as “contain expressions different from the original intention”).

There are many revisionists who refuse to take the devs/officials at their own word because those words do not slot with their preferred interpretations of the game. If the writer of the song comes out and says exactly what many of us deduced, that the song was not a love song about any one person, then there is no way to logically validate anyone arguing that. Perceptions can be wrong and formed through disingenuous means too.

I also find it inaccurate to call Nojima’s statement about the nature of NPTK “interven[ing]” on his part, the video he says this in was pre-recorded and featured multiple devs discussing the song’s creation process at length. The purpose of his conversation wasn’t to intervene due to a misconception he had witnessed in the fandom, but was part of a video dedicated to sharing how the song came to be and its journey of production. It’s meaningful and important for us to understand that the song is not in fact a romantic song for one person, but a song for everyone Aerith loved. So I’d argue it’s disingenuous to say it was in any way an intervention that he had to do to clarify to the fans because they were currently misinterpreting it as CA—it was something they were always intent on sharing.

That isn’t to say I believe SE aren’t sometimes shooting themselves in the foot with their preference to stay out of the way of fandom and let people interpret things without intervening or clarifying, I think for certain topics that would actually help considering how long this dilemma has existed (Whether ppl listen to them or not).

But for the songs specifically, and even mistakes made by the team for the gacha game, I’d have to disagree that this is in any way a failure of execution or communication.

 

[Heartstation]

I’m not sure how to edit or add on to my previous post, but I do want to clarify that I don’t think it’s harmful to view NPTK or even Hollow as having romantic elements within it, just that it’s ultimately not the intent by the writers/devs & shouldn’t be used to criticize SE for misleading people if they chose to see it that way.

And also if someone did have that perception, there’s also nothing wrong with that, I know people who upon first listen believed the song to be about Zack, but once Nojima contextualized it through his commentary, you can see that there isn’t anything there that makes it undoubtedly romantic. Love songs or songs that incorporate elements of love songs do not have to be about romantic love anyway. I think that’s honestly where Nojima was going with his explanation.

 

[Ryeleigh]

@Ryeleigh I've never been a part of any other shipping community, or followed any other media with a large shipper following. A lot of the examples you reference seem pretty dire, so maybe I am over-reacting. Maybe it's just a symptom of the Internet, anonymity, social media.

I think the focus should be less on the misconceptions held by CA shippers, and more about how SE is handling things. Whether intentionally or unintentionally, they are deliberately feeding the fire that is the LTD.

And I'm trying to explain that regardless of how SE could've or should've handled things, ultimately it doesn't matter. XD Like, I'm sorry. FF7 has been clear since OG. It was clear when Aerith died and Cloud lived. It was clear when Cloud declared that only Tifa's opinion matters. It was clear when Tifa stayed behind to care for a mako-poisoned Cloud. It was clear when they fell into the Lifestream together and Cloud pulled Tifa into his most tender secret memories. It was clear when Cloud's raison d'être was revealed to be Tifa. It was clear when they spent their last night on earth planet together. It was clear when they were living and raising children together in ACC like any other shounen couple after a time-skip. It was clear when Aerith walked off into the light with Zack, the ex-boyfriend she saw in Cloud. And it's even clearer in Re-Trilogy since they can now depict expressions and tone of voices, not to mention motion capture. And I repeat: SE did not seriously bring Zack back just for him to watch the love of his life he died to see and the best friend he died to save hitch it up. Like, I'm truly sorry, but please.

Also, it can hardly be unintentional if you think they're deliberately feeding the LTD. But are they, though? Or are they just telling a story? Once shipping becomes about proving a ship's canonicity, it simply stops being about shipping. It's not shipping driving that behaviour. And there's nothing -- and I truly mean nothing -- creators can do to dissuade people like that. Including everyone telling them straight-out that "No, it's not a thing. It's never been a thing. It's not happening."

This is why I genuinely recommend that you get to know what shipping and ship wars are actually like. (Also, what actual harems are like because Cloud just doesn't encourage any of the other girls or get "swept up in the mood".) To be honest and I mean no offence with this, but you seem to have this strange mindset where the extreme CA shippers are somehow helpless victims who are strung and baited along because of SE's dastardly intentions? Instead of the extreme CAs just interpreting everything through a confirmation bias, regardless of SE's intentions? People can 100% have a wrong perception of something all on their own, particularly if that perception is cultivated in echo chambers. Like, I'm not explaining this well because English isn't my first language. But just the mere existence of perception doesn't mean that anyone did anything to encourage or even create that perception. To give a rather extreme example, it's like stalkers getting a perception of reciprocity even if the victim did nothing except maybe say 'hello'.

I’m not sure how to edit or add on to my previous post

I think you need to post a certain number of posts before you can edit them.

 

[GamerSkull]

The fact that one of the girls in the LTD got an optional kiss and the other didn’t is something that we all didn’t just dream.

It still was not enough to stop the ship war.

Cloud could bang Tifa every day after breakfast, lunch and dinner and raise a dozen kids with her… and the ship war would still rage on.

Unfortunately, it would just get recontextualized by the more hardcore CA shippers like the kiss was. They already tried by:

A) Explaining it away as a spur-of-the-moment jealous rebound
B) Interlocked Handholding being more romantic (somehow)

 

[Eerie]

This is the sort of thing I'm talking about. It's likely someone told Loren Alred the song was about the CA relationship, which is why she said this in interviews. Similar with Uematsu. But then Nojima gets on Twitter months later and says the song is about everyone. This makes it look like the meaning of the song was changed retro-actively. If NPTK was always about everyone, why wasn't Loren told about this? It seems like there's some miscommunication within the company.

I never said I wanted CA moments removed, aside from the Dream Date and the theme song. NPTK is the most important song in the game. It has meta significance. When the singer herself says it's about CA, how can anyone say the shippers are wrong? How can anyone be considered delusional if they think the theme of reunion is going to pay off at some point in the CA relationship after they hear it? It's completely reasonable for one to conclude this if they don't have any previous knowledge of FFVII. Thus, reasonable they would feel baited later on if it doesn't go that way.

@Ryeleigh I've never been a part of any other shipping community, or followed any other media with a large shipper following. A lot of the examples you reference seem pretty dire, so maybe I am over-reacting. Maybe it's just a symptom of the Internet, anonymity, social media.

I think the focus should be less on the misconceptions held by CA shippers, and more about how SE is handling things. Whether intentionally or unintentionally, they are deliberately feeding the fire that is the LTD.

I’m sorry but you do realise that Ultimanias interviews are done months ahead of release of the game and already there Nojima talked about NTPK the exact same way, before CA even heard about the song?

Instead of the extreme CAs just interpreting everything through a confirmation bias, regardless of SE's intentions?

It’s so funny to me they released an interview where they said exactly that: we’re giving you the story the best we can so you can understand it, but we can’t prevent people from interpreting it wrong lol. And this is about everyone, not only extreme CAs.

 

[Maidenofwar]

Eh, if Zack and Aerith aren't going to have any teasing and banter, I'm not sure I want it. Aerith grew into her more OG personality (though always retaining a hint of impetuous that's she's had even since small) I wouldn't want her to suppress her personality just because Zack's back. Let her be the woman she is. Zack loved a girl. Let him get to know the woman she became and let's see what happens from that angle. I know it's a mistranslation in Nibel but I don't want Aerith to be a mouse xD Or too matyr/materia Jesus, I really hope they don't incorporate her AC version too much.

 

[eleamaya]

Eh, if Zack and Aerith aren't going to have any teasing and banter, I'm not sure I want it. Aerith grew into her more OG personality (though always retaining a hint of impetuous that's she's had even since small) I wouldn't want her to suppress her personality just because Zack's back. Let her be the woman she is. Zack loved a girl. Let him get to know the woman she became and let's see what happens from that angle. I know it's a mistranslation in Nibel but I don't want Aerith to be a mouse xD Or too matyr/materia Jesus, I really hope they don't incorporate her AC version too much.

What I mean is, Zack would not do that, teasing and banter. I said Maiden works because Zack is OOC, his feelings isn't serious, to be as broken as canon!Zack so he can banter her back. This is a scenario if you want she reject him. Aerith & Zack always tease each other since CC though.

 

[AncientGrim]

It's not shipping driving that behaviour. And there's nothing -- and I truly mean nothing -- creators can do to dissuade people like that. Including everyone telling them straight-out that "No, it's not a thing. It's never been a thing. It's not happening."

I think this actually highlights quite well one of the things this recent Ever Crisis titles issue has brought into focus.

That SE could do exactly this, announce a press conference with all the developers, writers, voice actors etc. and say this verbatim:

"No, it's not a thing. It's never been a thing. It's not happening."

That Part 3 could fully depict in greater detail everything from the portions of the OG story it will adapt, from Northern Crater, to the Lifestream sequence, to Under the Highwind, all expanded upon, no room open to interpret in any other way, the Cloud and Tifa love story made explicit (if it wasn’t already explicit enough).

How would the extreme “CA is endgame” camp react?

Well this recent Ever Crisis update has shown exactly how they will react.

Because it’s no small thing that, with zero context, evidence, or proof that they’ve spread the false narrative far and wide that the recent titles in Ever Crisis were changed due to harassment from toxic CTs. That this was the narrative they so quickly picked up, about as quick as the update to the titles itself, certainly far quicker than it would have realistically taken for the so called CT harassers in this scenario of theirs, to have organised a campaign of harassment significant enough to actually make the developers and team at Ever Crisis change the titles.

To say it’s alarming just how reliant they are on these false narratives isn’t an understatement, it’s also I think a clear warning what they are likely already going to be doing not only when Part 3 comes around, but for any and all further situations down the line where if anything remotely favouring CT comes out, that it was because it’s a result of CT harassing the developers.

As one of the posts shared here also highlights, it’s not simply about spreading misinformation about CTs harassing developers into changing things. It’s about framing their side as victims, being mistreated, and forced into silence. It’s about clearly delineating what CTs do as harassment, and what they do as “fighting back”, “reclaiming power”, “holding others accountable”.

Using this kind of language and rhetoric is a further cause for alarm in my opinion, cause this sort of thing is being discussed now over these stupid Ever Crisis titles.

I think it’s safe to assume this is only going to get worse closer we get to Part 3, when marketing kicks up, and a clearer sign of which way the wind is blowing comes into view.

I’d like to hope that this tactic won’t hold sway. That some in that group regard this use of framing and language as problematic, and hopefully call it out. Because like others have said as well, this is not about shipping anymore.

Any who seriously gets joy from shipping Cloud and Aerith wouldn’t resort to these sorts of twisted kinds of deceit and manipulation of facts.

They wouldn’t have tried to twist the Cloti kiss as a jealous rebound kiss. Because by doing so, they harm their own ship and the characters in said ship. They make Cloud into an awful person. And still want Aerith to be with this warped version of Cloud. A guy who would out of jealousy take advantage of a girl who has feelings for him to get back at the other. At Aerith, who was the girlfriend of his best friend.

Luckily I don’t think that woefully poor misinterpretation has aged well at all, and the longer you look at it, the further the ridiculousness such a reading of this scene becomes.

“Tifa deserves better!” is also one of many unwitting admissions on their part in this case as well, because it’s showing they care as little for Aerith as they do for Tifa, if they seriously argue Tifa doesn’t deserve Cloud for the jealousy kiss, but their supposed favourite character does.

I think this has shown they maybe are aware of how foolish these interpretations of scenes like this have become. And that they haven’t held as much ground as they would have liked.

Which is why I think this recurring lie about CTs harassing the developers into changing the story into one that has CT as endgame is being so fervently spread.

I’d like to be wrong, I’d seriously like to hope that I’m wrong about this being what to expect. I don’t want more years of this nonsense.

But as I’ve said, if Ever Crisis title cards are capable of evoking this, I fear any and all things in FFVII can.

 

[Maidenofwar]

Yeah well, maybe if extreme CTs (and I mean prominent known ones with followings) hadn't previously posted things like that's it I'm done boycotting this game over Ever Crisis, or people commenting on Aerith cos players calling them the One slut, or harassing CA artists with mocking comments over it, people wouldn't be so quick to believe some extreme CTs would send in complaints behind the scenes/in private. I never really thought anybody made SE do anything about the titles, doesn't mean people weren't bothered. Should have been clearer earlier.

This morning I saw someone still wanting to cancel their Ever Crisis subscription, they still aren't happy with Aerith's current title even though it was changed, because it's not changed in Japan, I think it's the event itself some aren't happy with, that Aerith can't have anything even remotely romantic, even in EC. This worries me that they won't be able to use either of the girls separately for Valentines events without there being some kind of noise.

 

[AncientGrim]

Yeah well, maybe if extreme CTs (and I mean prominent known ones with followings) hadn't previously posted things like that's it I'm done boycotting this game over Ever Crisis, or people commenting on Aerith cos players calling them the One slut, or harassing CA artists with mocking comments over it, people wouldn't be so quick to believe some extreme CTs would send in complaints behind the scenes/in private. I never really thought anybody made SE do anything about the titles, doesn't mean people weren't bothered. Should have been clearer earlier.

None of which is enough to justify intentionally lying and seeking to spread false information that is damaging as well. Nor positioning oneself as victims in this situation when just as many CAs are capable of this behaviour as are CTs. It’s an ever repeating cycle on both sides with the extremes, in regards to this toxic behaviour yes, but only one side is seeking to flip the narrative on harassment, on one side getting the developers to change things, and now as it’s emerging, looking to make one side out to be the only ones guilty of harassment and toxic behaviour, while the other are victims being silenced.

This is another aspect of these seeking to spread false narratives, and framing themselves as fighting against the other side harassing people, when they are as equally guilty of it as them.

By using the examples you cited in relation to this it’s helping to perpetuate that very idea that CAs are always victims being constantly silenced and targeted, which just isn’t true.

 

[Maidenofwar]

There's nothing wrong with calling those people out or people blocking the perpetrators. I'm not saying Tifa cos players, artists or content creators don't get harassed.