SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[Odysseus]

The whole sequence is probably my favorite scene in the game. In any other story Tifa would have reassured Cloud, proved Sephiroth wrong, and saved the day. That's not what happens though; Cloud's story is inconsistent, Sephiroth is RIGHT as far as she knows. She has no idea what to do, she's stressed and scared and uncertain. All she can do is say "shut your eyes, don't listen!" It's a very human moment.

 

[Graymouse]

Boy, this thread swings wide!

Just the other day we were talking about Tifa's panties, and today we are talking about hypotheticals of Aerith surviving the Temple of the Ancient!

God I love this thread! I guess the thread title really hits home, It is my daily "coke"

 

[Odysseus]

Aw man, did I miss the panties discussion?

 

[Graymouse]

The whole sequence us probably my favorite scene in the game. In any other story Tifa would have reassured Cloud, proved Sephiroth wrong, and saved the day. That's not what happens though; Cloud's story is inconsistent, Sephiroth is RIGHT as far as she knows. She has no idea what to do, she's stressed and scared and uncertain. All she can do is say "shut your eyes, don't listen!" It's a very human moment.

This very thing is what makes the life-stream sequence such a great payoff. It is pure genius in storytelling. Where Tifa and Cloud finally opens up with each other and find themselves in love this entire time. It is at that moment I think is where I finally see these two being soul mates.

Throughout the first part of the game, I think their feelings were there but the "timing" and understanding just how each other felt was all off. This is the greatest payoff I think the game offered when you come to the understanding that they have been crazy for each other this entire time. That was my Eureka moment with them. Once I figured it out, the entire story just seemed to fall into place for me.

 

[Ruri]

For the Aerith alive argument. Well Tifa was created with the purpose so the 'hero would not be lonely' after the first heroine died. Aerith had dibs had she been a living heroine but Aerith living means the character Tifa had no reason to exist in the first place. The story was written for the second heroine to get the hero and they wrote it in such a way that Tifa's claim to him is rooted very, very deep in his actions and who he is and the story is impacted as such. It makes the 'if Aerith lived' argument, while Tifa exists also, very difficult

Tifa could still exist but with the intent she was created it just leaves one scratching their head had she been not been considered a main love interest because her significance to Cloud after her character was fully developed for the original game is huge.

The wiki calls it like this:

Designed by Tetsuya Nomura, the concept of Tifa was first created when the idea was suggested that, at some point within the game, a character would be permanently killed off. When it was decided to have Aerith die, attention went into developing her character and her relationships with the other characters; this resulted in the idea to introduce Tifa as a rival for Cloud's affections. The notion of having two concurrent heroines and the protagonist torn between them was something director Yoshinori Kitase liked, describing it as something new in the Final Fantasy games.[12]

It doesn't really back what I said up but I have heard the 'hero would not be lonely' tossed about for a while. Feel free to debunk.


Also, Kitase still having so much fun with the LTD after two decades. I think the novelty has worn off a bit now...

I'm telling you, we need to drop it and go out for drinks!

 

[minami758]

Creating Tifa was like the best decision SE ever made, she's made them so much money over the years. Her Play Arts Kai figure is selling like hotcakes apparently.

 

[Odysseus]

Creating Tifa was like the best decision SE ever made, she's made them so much money over the years. Her Play Arts Kai figure is selling like hotcakes apparently.

I know I got that shit on pre order... along with all the other ones.

Where's my Jessie PAK, square!?

 

[Eerie]

Oh someone pointed out earlier (ok way way earlier) that there's no clerith scene after Aerith's resolution scene (unless I'm missing some, feel free to correct me). It's to note too that the overarching plot takes place and so the ships in general take a step back but cloti still gets some after this. I find it interesting because it shows that Aerith is more tied to the overall plot, she has to act there as she did when her role as a Cetra was calling for it in the OG - the change from the Aerith from ch8 to 12 and 15+ is just... huge and leave the romantic scene, whereas Tifa's role, not being tied to that same plot, can still allows some shippy moments with Cloud, even in those dark times. The two ships are very much contrasted here.

Now that they have defeated destiny itself though, will Aerith still have this feeling about her death, or will she feel more free like she used to be in the OG? That remains to be seen in the next game, but I'm guessing that to develop clerith, they would have to revert her a bit. Because at the end of Remake, she looked like the leading hero more than the hero himself. That struck me very deep, and probably added to that feeling that she was not as interested in Cloud as she used to be in the OG.

 

[Ruri]

Creating Tifa was like the best decision SE ever made, she's made them so much money over the years. Her Play Arts Kai figure is selling like hotcakes apparently.

Tifa is a very beloved character and the fire of her popularity has both persisted since OG and been re-lit anew with remake. While Aerith remains one of the few characters to exist that is loved unconditionally by all.

I love my double heroines, personally, they are my favourite decision of SE. The LT often clouds *cough* what they both bring to the table for this game and the appreciation this double duo is probably owed. They are both pulling massive weight for this game and I like to stop and admire it every now and then.

 

[RhinoKart]

Oh someone pointed out earlier (ok way way earlier) that there's no clerith scene after Aerith's resolution scene (unless I'm missing some, feel free to correct me). It's to note too that the overarching plot takes place and so the ships in general take a step back but cloti still gets some after this. I find it interesting because it shows that Aerith is more tied to the overall plot, she has to act there as she did when her role as a Cetra was calling for it in the OG - the change from the Aerith from ch8 to 12 and 15+ is just... huge and leave the romantic scene, whereas Tifa's role, not being tied to that same plot, can still allows some shippy moments with Cloud, even in those dark times. The two ships are very much contrasted here.

Now that they have defeated destiny itself though, will Aerith still have this feeling about her death, or will she feel more free like she used to be in the OG? That remains to be seen in the next game, but I'm guessing that to develop clerith, they would have to revert her a bit. Because at the end of Remake, she looked like the leading hero more than the hero himself. That struck me very deep, and probably added to that feeling that she was not as interested in Cloud as she used to be in the OG.

Currently writing a long analysis on this (don't judge to harshly I'm in month 3 of quarantine where I live and going insane), it won't be ready in time for posting to relevant discussion here but basically there are almost no Clerith scenes after chapter 14.

I've seen a few people claim that there are, so here is a summery of the moments I've seen posted on tumbr/twitter:

The look/smile between Cloud and Aerith in her bedroom following Wedge telling them to get to the roof

Her grabbing his arm at Destiny's crossroads

After you beat the Whispers Cloud asks Aerith where they are and then looks at her when he hears Sephiroth's voice

The ending scene where Cloud says he has to go after Sephiroth and Aerith tells Cloud that they can beat him

Edited to add: There are a good number of both "ship" moments and subtle C/T moments after Chapter 14, which is really interesting. The big ones being Cloud saving Tifa after the heligunner fight, Tifa going to Cloud during his headache in front of Jenova, Tifa by Cloud's bedside, Tifa saving Cloud on the roof, Cloud saving Tifa when the Whisper Rubrum attacks her.

 

[Maidenofwar]

I've also seen "you came for me", Cloud checking on Aerith in the truck during the Midgar highway escape, "Barret, do this for me- please." Cloud checking on Aerith while on the bike while in the Shinra Building entrance, mentioned.

 

[LNK]

I know I got that shit on pre order... along with all the other ones.

Where's my Jessie PAK, square!?

I ordered all of em too Then shook my head when I saw my credit card statement lol

 

[Graymouse]

Currently writing a long analysis on this (don't judge to harshly I'm in month 3 of quarantine where I live and going insane), it won't be ready in time for posting to relevant discussion here but basically there are almost no Clerith scenes after chapter 14.

I've seen a few people claim that there are, so here is a summery of the moments I've seen posted on tumbr/twitter:

The look/smile between Cloud and Aerith in her bedroom following Wedge telling them to get to the roof

Her grabbing his arm at Destiny's crossroads

After you beat the Whispers Cloud asks Aerith where they are and then looks at her when he hears Sephiroth's voice

The ending scene where Cloud says he has to go after Sephiroth and Aerith tells Cloud that they can beat him

Edited to add: There are a good number of both "ship" moments and subtle C/T moments after Chapter 14, which is really interesting. The big ones being Cloud saving Tifa after the heligunner fight, Tifa going to Cloud during his headache in front of Jenova, Tifa by Cloud's bedside, Tifa saving Cloud on the roof, Cloud saving Tifa when the Whisper Rubrum attacks her.

The C/A moments that you listed seems like they are grasping for straws at this point.

I am not so sure how grabbing Clouds arm is a ship moment in this contex at that moment in the game. In an earlier sequence at the end of the game Aerith puts her hand on Barrets chest to hold him back. It was the same when Aerith grabbed onto Clouds arm. Is that now a shipping moment? Under the same pretex it should be?

Bareith anybody?

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I somewhat disagree with this. Obviously we won't ever know for sure what would happen if Aerith lived (unless she somehow does in the Remake), but if we're going by narrative intent and logic, then Cloud and Tifa would still end up together by the end of the story. In fact, Aerith living would actually improve Cloud and Tifa's relationship, because then they'd have no guilt to deal with post-game.

Say Aerith did live, but everything else in the game plays out in the same way. At some point, Sephiroth still breaks Cloud, Cloud falls into the Lifestream, and winds up catatonic in Mideel. Tifa is still the one to stay by his side (maybe Aerith does too, but she has more planetary issues to take care of, so I doubt it) and falls into the Lifestream with him. Tifa puts Cloud's mind back together in the most intimate sequence in the story, and Cloud realizes he left Nibelheim to impress Tifa and that he's liked her since childhood.

Post-Lifestream sequence, I don’t see a route for Cloud and Aerith to develop a relationship. What, Cloud's going to remember his past, realize Tifa reciprocates his feelings, and then he's going to tell her, "Well, I've loved you for a long time and left town to impress you, but I've actually realized that we're better off being friends and I love Aerith now so bye."

If we're being indulgent, maybe they date for a bit, but at that point, Cloud and Tifa’s bond is so strong and entangled that — narratively speaking — it wouldn’t make sense for Aerith and Cloud to be together. Aerith wouldn’t be able to breach that same level of understanding that Cloud and Tifa have with each other; there would always be a barrier. When Cloud’s memories return, so does his old flame for Tifa. There's no "moving on" with Tifa, because Tifa was always the one Cloud loved in the first place — he just couldn't remember that for a short 2 months.

This is all under the assumption that the writers of the story understand basic story structure and character development, which they definitely do. The Lifestream sequence kills any ambiguity in my opinion — everything after that is just gravy.

You're good people, minami, so I want to be clear while I can that this isn't meant as a critique of you or even your POV alone, but this is the sort of overly self-indulgent, predetermined-destination shipping dissertation that makes me just cringe from my mouth to my ass crack. XD

Like, I can't even tell you how many times I've read both anti- and pro-Clerith proposals that began with some form of "Obviously we won't ever know for sure what would happen if Aerith lived ... but if we're going by narrative intent and logic ..." before presenting a rather firm offering in line with the speaker's prior known conclusions.

I'm reminded of the many occasions I've seen arguments begin with something to the effect of "It's clear that the developers intended there to be no answer ... but here's the reasons we know Cloud loved Aerith yet was barely even able to contently share roommate status with Tifa -- which, by the way, we also know would have been the case with or without Geostigma."

Sorry, I know I'm being an asshole. =(

Cloud breaking is the crux of his character arc — it's the lowest point of his hero's journey, it would happen regardless. Aerith's death is a large part of his decline, yes, but the actual thing that breaks Cloud is Sephiroth telling him that he's just a clone and that his memories of his childhood are all fake. That revelation is independent of Aerith.

What is Aerith going to say in that moment to comfort Cloud? She doesn't know his past, she doesn't know if he's a clone or not. Any words coming from her would sound empty to Cloud's ears. Tifa's the only one who can corroborate that Cloud actually existed as a human being before the whole Jenova situation.

She doesn't necessarily need to know the specifics of his life before, though, to discern that he had one. Thanks to her Cetra power, she gathered enough to know that he wasn't himself at the time of the Gold Saucer date, but she still knew there was a real person under all that.

 

[Maidenofwar]

If every time Tifa touches Cloud is going to be used as a shipping moment of course people are going to do the same in the other case ?

Things like Cloud and Aerith sharing a non verbal exchange after the Domino and Wedge event I don't think are less than CxT things.

 

[minami758]

@The Twilight Mexican Hahahaha, I totally get it. I haven't been around in this neck of the woods long enough to know about all that. Speaking in hypotheticals doesn't really help anyone so that's why I kind of dropped the topic. Obviously I'm biased and the fact of the matter is is that we don't know (but maybe we will in the Remake?), it's just the whole characterization and narrative webs are compelling to me. I guess if I were the writer of FF7 that's what I'd do, but alas, I am not.

 

[Graymouse]

If every time Tifa touches Cloud is going to be used as a shipping moment of course people are going to do the same in the other case ?

Valid point indeed! I guess in that case the contex of the scene should play a role as well. I think what most C/T are talking about is the fact there is a large amount of the "unnecessary touching" that goes on between the two. Would that be considered ship moments?

 

[LNK]

If every time Tifa touches Cloud is going to be used as a shipping moment of course people are going to do the same in the other case ?

Please no lol. Do pro Tifa do that as well?

 

[RhinoKart]

Please no lol. Do pro Tifa do that as well?

Yes they do (and I am totally guilty of this lol). There are some arguments to be made in favour of it, but also it is very true that not every single touch between Characters is meant to be a ship moment.

There are also some arguments to be made about how frequent physical touching and looks are exchanged in establishing a relationship dynamic between specific characters as well, but more often then not both sides take moments out of context.

A good example might be, I saw an argument that when Cloud is on the bike and looks back at Tifa in the car and says "lets go" to be how he talks to Tifa before anyone else..... but like she is the one driving the car, of course he is going to be speaking to her right then.

Likewise Cloud looking at Aerith after the whispers battle, when he hears Sephiroth's voice is not a ship moment. Cause of course Cloud is going to look in the direction of the voice he just heard....

 

[Odysseus]

Didn't Aerith drive the car originally?

 

[minami758]

Does anyone watch streamer/Youtuber playthroughs? There's this one called Materwelonz on Youtube who did a blind playthrough of the Remake and has some really great insights to the story and characters. She's incredibly observant for someone who knows nothing about the OG.

She hit almost every plot note perfectly and a lot of her theories are in line with people who're familiar with the OG and Compilation. This is tangentially LTD-related because she makes a few characterization and relationship observations in her playthrough.

 

[Graymouse]

Didn't Aerith drive the car originally?

I think it has always been Tifa driving the truck.

Edited to add: The music!

 

[LNK]

Yes they do (and I am totally guilty of this lol). There are some arguments to be made in favour of it, but also it is very true that not every single touch between Characters is meant to be a ship moment.

There are also some arguments to be made about how frequent physical touching and looks are exchanged in establishing a relationship dynamic between specific characters as well, but more often then not both sides take moments out of context.

A good example might be, I saw an argument that when Cloud is on the bike and looks back at Tifa in the car and says "lets go" to be how he talks to Tifa before anyone else..... but like she is the one driving the car, of course he is going to be speaking to her right then.

Likewise Cloud looking at Aerith after the whispers battle, when he hears Sephiroth's voice is not a ship moment. Cause of course Cloud is going to look in the direction of the voice he just heard....

I can't believe people have that much of an inflated perspective when it comes to things like this. "OMG, Cloud looked at Tifa! That's such a ship moment!" Lol wtf?

 

[looneymoon]

I can't believe people have that much of an inflated perspective when it comes to things like this. "OMG, Cloud looked at Tifa! That's such a ship moment!" Lol wtf?

my yaoi porn folder will have you say otherwise

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I think it has always been Tifa driving the truck.

Yeah, original concept art has her doing the driving: