SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[minami758]

I think what annoys most people is the somehow enduring train of thought that Tifa is the "second woman" or that Cloud only chooses her because she has a heartbeat — as if she's some sort of leftover woman whom Cloud actually wishes were Aerith. It's a blatant misreading of the plot and themes, but many people still believe it even if it's complete character assassination for everyone involved.

Edit to add: That's why I'm glad the Remake is already taking pains to get rid of those assumptions. That interpretation was always the most frustrating part of the LTD to me.

 

[Graymouse]

I think what annoys most people is the somehow enduring train of thought that Tifa is the "second woman" or that Cloud only chooses her because she has a heartbeat — as if she's some sort of leftover woman whom Cloud actually wishes were Aerith. It's a blatant misreading of the plot and themes, but many people still believe it even if it's complete character assassination for everyone involved.

I think this hits the nail on the head with my thought process about this entire thing. Thanks for articulating that!

It is funny that most C/T people can accept the fact that Cloud might have at one time or does love Aerith. However, most C/A people can't accept the fact that Cloud has and continues to have a special place in Tifa's heart ever since their childhood and that Tifa is a precious person to Cloud. Also, not to mention that Cloud has loved Tifa since the beginning.

 

[Final_Heaven]

I think what annoys most people is the somehow enduring train of thought that Tifa is the "second woman" or that Cloud only chooses her because she has a heartbeat — as if she's some sort of leftover woman whom Cloud actually wishes were Aerith. It's a blatant misreading of the plot and themes, but many people still believe it even if it's complete character assassination for everyone involved.

Edit to add: That's why I'm glad the Remake is already taking pains to get rid of those assumptions. That interpretation was always the most frustrating part of the LTD to me.

Well Nojima did say that the Remake will have less things to interpret. Romance is definitely part of it.

 

[Final_Heaven]

It always seemed to me that Cloud had feelings for both the grills, and there isn't such a definite answer to the LTD as people would like.

Cloud ends up with Tifa, yes, but he's obviously still got hang ups about Aerith, as does Tifa in her own way. Those feelings don't just go away.

I think that's the answer.

He has feelings for both girls, Aerith dies and he ends up with Tifa.

 

[Odysseus]

I think what annoys most people is the somehow enduring train of thought that Tifa is the "second woman" or that Cloud only chooses her because she has a heartbeat — as if she's some sort of leftover woman whom Cloud actually wishes were Aerith. It's a blatant misreading of the plot and themes, but many people still believe it even if it's complete character assassination for everyone involved.

Edit to add: That's why I'm glad the Remake is already taking pains to get rid of those assumptions. That interpretation was always the most frustrating part of the LTD to me.

That is the thing though. If Aerith hadn't died there's no telling what might have happened instead. Cloud and Tifa's connection runs deeper than just "she is other grill" to be sure, but the feelings he never got to process for Aerith still linger. That's why I don't think the LTD has a winner. The remake might change everything though, so we'll see.

 

[Graymouse]

I think that's the answer.

He has feelings for both girls, Aerith dies and he ends up with Tifa.

Sorry but what you said, it makes it feel that Tifa, didn't mean anything to Cloud and makes Tifa out to be a second rate character that won Clouds affection by the default of Aerith dying. I know that wasn't your intention, but this happens all the time and a go to argument on the C/A side.

It just isn't that easy. I would think that if Aerith would have lived and Cloud would have got his memories back that he would end up with Tifa anyways. Again, while Aerith was alive, Cloud was not in his right mind. Cloud is only his true self in front of Tifa.

 

[minami758]

That is the thing though. If Aerith hadn't died there's no telling what might have happened instead. Cloud and Tifa's connection runs deeper than just "she is other grill" to be sure, but the feelings he never got to process for Aerith still linger. That's why I don't think the LTD has a winner. The remake might change everything though, so we'll see.

I somewhat disagree with this. Obviously we won't ever know for sure what would happen if Aerith lived (unless she somehow does in the Remake), but if we're going by narrative intent and logic, then Cloud and Tifa would still end up together by the end of the story. In fact, Aerith living would actually improve Cloud and Tifa's relationship, because then they'd have no guilt to deal with post-game.

Say Aerith did live, but everything else in the game plays out in the same way. At some point, Sephiroth still breaks Cloud, Cloud falls into the Lifestream, and winds up catatonic in Mideel. Tifa is still the one to stay by his side (maybe Aerith does too, but she has more planetary issues to take care of, so I doubt it) and falls into the Lifestream with him. Tifa puts Cloud's mind back together in the most intimate sequence in the story, and Cloud realizes he left Nibelheim to impress Tifa and that he's liked her since childhood.

Post-Lifestream sequence, I don’t see a route for Cloud and Aerith to develop a relationship. What, Cloud's going to remember his past, realize Tifa reciprocates his feelings, and then he's going to tell her, "Well, I've loved you for a long time and left town to impress you, but I've actually realized that we're better off being friends and I love Aerith now so bye."

If we're being indulgent, maybe they date for a bit, but at that point, Cloud and Tifa’s bond is so strong and entangled that — narratively speaking — it wouldn’t make sense for Aerith and Cloud to be together. Aerith wouldn’t be able to breach that same level of understanding that Cloud and Tifa have with each other; there would always be a barrier. When Cloud’s memories return, so does his old flame for Tifa. There's no "moving on" with Tifa, because Tifa was always the one Cloud loved in the first place — he just couldn't remember that for a short 2 months.

This is all under the assumption that the writers of the story understand basic story structure and character development, which they definitely do. The Lifestream sequence kills any ambiguity in my opinion — everything after that is just gravy.

 

[Odysseus]

If we're gonna talk purely hypothetically. I don't think Cloud would have even broken if Aerith was still alive. She probably would have been there for Cloud where tifa succumbed to her self doubt. Such a scenario would bring them closer like the lifestream sequence did for cloud and Tifa. Who knows what would happen then.

Man you guys are starting to make me sound like a Clerith here. I'm really not.

 

[looneymoon]

I kinda get it in the sense that, the last thing we hear Cloud say is meeting Aerith in the promised land, then all these subsequent AU portrayals of him seem to imply him doing just that? It's been debunked, but that reading certainly had some legs at some point. I don't think The Compilation was written to be congruent with that, but it was definitely something Square had consideration for once upon a time.

I remember seeing S-E post a special Valentine's Day render of Noctis and Luna driving around happily in the Regalia. I remember seeing that and thinking, ohhh that stings because that can't actually happen within the narrative of FFXV, huh. I think that's just the type of appeal for those types pairings /shrug

 

[youffie]

Imho, the huge elephant in the room in an actual relationship between Cloud and Aerith is called Zack Fair. I think Aerith could get past it, maybe the remake even implies that she is starting to get past it, but I’m not so sure about Cloud. Especially considering the Compilation, I always thought that Cloud could never let himself be okay with being with the girlfriend of the guy who died saving his life while going to her. Not the Cloud we see in AC, at least.

 

[Graymouse]

If we're gonna talk purely hypothetically. I don't think Cloud would have even broken if Aerith was still alive. She probably would have been there for Cloud where tifa succumbed to her self doubt. Such a scenario would bring them closer like the lifestream sequence did for cloud and Tifa. Who knows what would happen then.

Man you guys are starting to make me sound like a Clerith here. I'm really not.

That is an interesting point. However, I don't think that was Cloud's breaking point. I would have thought his breaking point was when he gave Sephiroth the black material at the Northern Crater sequence and how Sephiroth manipulated Cloud and Tifa's memories together. I am not saying that Aerith dying wasn't a part of it, but I don't think it was the sole reason why Cloud reached that breaking point.

I could be misremembering stuff. Please correct me if I am way off course.

 

[minami758]

If we're gonna talk purely hypothetically. I don't think Cloud would have even broken if Aerith was still alive. She probably would have been there for Cloud where tifa succumbed to her self doubt. Such a scenario would bring them closer like the lifestream sequence did for cloud and Tifa. Who knows what would happen then.

Man you guys are starting to make me sound like a Clerith here. I'm really not.

Cloud breaking is the crux of his character arc — it's the lowest point of his hero's journey, it would happen regardless. Aerith's death is a large part of his decline, yes, but the actual thing that breaks Cloud is Sephiroth telling him that he's just a clone and that his memories of his childhood are all fake. That revelation is independent of Aerith.

What is Aerith going to say in that moment to comfort Cloud? She doesn't know his past, she doesn't know if he's a clone or not. Any words coming from her would sound empty to Cloud's ears. Tifa's the only one who can corroborate that Cloud actually existed as a human being before the whole Jenova situation.

Also yeah we know you're not, we're just engaging in some healthy debate.

 

[Odysseus]

That is an interesting point. However, I don't think that was Cloud's breaking point. I would have thought his breaking point was when he gave Sephiroth the black material at the Northern Crater sequence and how Sephiroth manipulated Cloud and Tifa's memories together. I am not saying that Aerith dying wasn't a part of it, but I don't think it was the sole reason why Cloud reached that breaking point.

I could be misremembering stuff. Please correct me if I am way off course.

Cloud losing his mind was a bit of a process. It starts at the temple with him beating her, is worsened by Aerith's death, especially because he almost does it, "there's someone in me that isn't me." Sephiroth seeks the deal by showing him that he was never st nibelheim 5 years ago, and Tifa can't muster a word in his defense. After that point cloud is putty in Sephiroth's hands, and willingly gives him the black materia.

 

[Graymouse]

Cloud losing his mind was a bit of a process. It starts at the temple with him beating her, is worsened by Aerith's death, especially because he almost does it, "there's someone in me that isn't me." Sephiroth seeks the deal by showing him that he was never st nibelheim 5 years ago, and Tifa can't muster a word in his defense. After that point cloud is putty in Sephiroth's hands, and willingly gives him the black materia.

Right, but as @minami758 mentioned in their post what you are not taking into consideration is:

What is Aerith going to say in that moment to comfort Cloud? She doesn't know his past, she doesn't know if he's a clone or not. Any words coming from her would sound empty to Cloud's ears. Tifa's the only one who can corroborate that Cloud actually existed as a human being before the whole Jenova situation.

Aerith just can't be the anchor to Cloud at this point because she just doesn't know Cloud the way Tifa does.

ETA:

Also btw Shame on Tifa for not speaking up at that point! Honestly!

 

[Odysseus]

Cloud breaking is the crux of his character arc — it's the lowest point of his hero's journey, it would happen regardless. Aerith's death is a large part of his decline, yes, but the actual thing that breaks Cloud is Sephiroth telling him that he's just a clone and that his memories of his childhood are all fake. That revelation is independent of Aerith.

What is Aerith going to say in that moment to comfort Cloud? She doesn't know his past, she doesn't know if he's a clone or not. Any words coming from her would sound empty to Cloud's ears. Tifa's the only one who can corroborate that Cloud actually existed as a human being before the whole Jenova situation.

Also yeah we know you're not, we're just engaging in some healthy debate.

Aerith at this point in the plot already knows cloud is full of shit. "I want to meet the real you" and all. That's why I don't think the "she actually just likes Zack" arguement is as sound as people think, too.

If she was still around for the "yer a clone bruv" scene, she'd step up and tell cloud it doesn't matter what he is. Cloud is still Cloud. She's strong willed like that. His breakdown is the crux of his arc, but it's not necessarily going to happen in this fake universe we're making up where Aerith isn't a shishkebab.

 

[LNK]

I think what annoys most people is the somehow enduring train of thought that Tifa is the "second woman" or that Cloud only chooses her because she has a heartbeat — as if she's some sort of leftover woman whom Cloud actually wishes were Aerith

Yeah, that's dumb. The counter to that, is there is no proof Cloud would even be with Aerith if she didn't die

 

[minami758]

@Odysseus I never agreed with the "she actually just likes Zack" argument either so I won't disagree with you there. (She started with liking Zack, then desired to meet the real Cloud.)

But in this hypothetical universe, would Cloud actually listen to her? Cloud knows something is wrong with him at this point, regardless of Aerith living. Sephiroth is a master of manipulation, and it's actually why in that moment Sephiroth blocks out Tifa's words to Cloud. He can't hear her; he can't really hear anyone. It's why I don't think Aerith saying anything would do much for Cloud's psyche, but we could argue about this all day lol. At the end of the day it isn't what happens.

 

[Odysseus]

Oh yeah and by no means am I trying to be reductive towards Tifa here. She's still my favorite between the two.

 

[Odysseus]

@Odysseus I never agreed with the "she actually just likes Zack" argument either so I won't disagree with you there. (She started with liking Zack, then desired to meet the real Cloud.)

But in this hypothetical universe, would Cloud actually listen to her? Cloud knows something is wrong with him at this point, regardless of Aerith living. Sephiroth is a master of manipulation, and it's actually why in that moment Sephiroth blocks out Tifa's words to Cloud. He can't hear her; he can't really hear anyone. It's why I don't think Aerith saying anything would do much for Cloud's psyche, but we could argue about this all day lol. At the end of the day it isn't what happens.

Yeah if we keep going this is gonna turn into an AU fan fic. My point was just that things could be different if she lived, but who know how different. Cloud sure doesn't know, and that's why her memory still haunts him.

 

[Eerie]

Cloud breaks down in the OG because Tifa can't tell him that he's the real Cloud. That's the thing that made him hang onto his self image, that he truly was Cloud, because she was there to reassure him that he was. Aerith's demise is part of his breakdown, but hadn't she died, he still would break down - we still see him beating her up and giving the materia to Sephiroth, he's still being manipulated and as Tifa is unable to tell right from wrong anymore, he breaks down.

As I was saying earlier in the FC, what would Aerith do once in Cloud's mind to help Cloud? She'd see that everything that ties him together IS Tifa. I don't know why anyone would wish for her to see this and think "wow this is my bf's mind, full of another woman". Yikes. The fact that she knows that Cloud is full of shit doesn't diminish the fact that she cannot act as Tifa, because Tifa is the only one who can reassure him about who he is. She's the only one who can see just how much he does love her. This scene is so important narratively, that it cannot work with any other character than Cloud and Tifa.

This is why, even in the Remake, this scene will have to happen, even if Aerith is still alive, with still Cloud and Tifa who reunite and confirm their past and feelings together. Honestly to me, this is why Aerith cannot win, because Tifa is anchored in Cloud's soul just that much, and it's not something I'd wish to any woman to really feel that... you're not the most important person to your lover. Honestly.

 

[minami758]

Cloud sure doesn't know, and that's why her memory still haunts him.

I guess I just disagree that the memory that haunts him is romantic in nature. There was attraction there while Aerith was alive, but then he realizes his feelings for Tifa. I think he suffers from a lot of guilt due to both Aerith and Zack's deaths, and that's completely normal. I just don't think part of that guilt is, "oh what if she were still alive, would we be in love and living happily ever after" in nature. Partly given the point made by @youffie earlier regarding Zack's role in everything. But that's just my opinion.

 

[odekopeko]

You guys are confusing me about the breakdown thing. I got past that part recently, when he hands over the Black Materia. It's still fresh in my mind. Tifa can't defend Cloud because his story is inconsistent with hers. She's had doubts the whole way through. In the Remake she seriously freaks out because he almost kills Johnny and the Shinra guards. It's not his "eyes" that scare her. But she couldn't bring herself to say it.

I know it's not that deep and Cloud isn't schizo, but my brother suffers from paranoid schizophrenia. There was one time, while he was in the hospital, when he asked me if something had happened, if he had injured my dad, and when I told him he did, he completely broke down in front of me. Istg that scene in FF7 gave me chills, it felt so real.

In that situation, it's a damned if you do, damned if you don't. Why should she be ashamed? Regardless, I think he would have broke down eventually anyway.

 

[Odysseus]

I didn't mean so much in a romantic way as just more plainly not knowing "what could have been."

If there is one big way the remake differs from the OG. it's how Aerith views Tifa. I feel like Remake Aerith would end up pushing Cloud an Tifa together even if she did live, OG Aerith seemed more selfish in that regard. Can't say I hate the change.

 

[Graymouse]

I can't wait to see this in the remake! Sephiroth is brutal here!

During this sequence Tifa tried to reason with Cloud on several occasions. Her words fell on deaf ears though, because Cloud was convinced that Tifa and Cloud had memories together and that this was all just Sephiroth's illusions. I am not so sure if Aerith was alive during this scene that she could convince Cloud otherwise. I mean if Tifa couldn't do it, I am not sure anyone could have.

Sephiroth ended up winning the day of course.

 

[minami758]

Why should she be ashamed?

Yeah, I don't think Tifa should be ashamed for not speaking up. She'd been manipulated and gaslit herself, nothing that happened there was her fault.