SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[The Twilight Mexican]

I've changed my mind. Personal anectotes make people weirdly defensive.

Is wanting one's sentiments to be accurately represented defensive (weirdly or otherwise)?

 

[a_apple 2.0]

I'm starting to think that maybe Cloud and Aeriths total lack of romantic interactions at Shinra HQ has something to do with Aerith going full Cetra? Like the more she accepts her role as a Ancient the further she becomes detached from the others?

 

[Cat on Mars]

Well, maybe I could have worded it better. Next time we have this convo in Spanish and you tell me how easy it is to convey perfect tone and meaning in another language, eh?

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Well, maybe I could have worded it better. Next time we have this convo in Spanish and you tell me how easy it is to convey perfect tone and meaning in another language, eh?

I wasn't chewing you out, though?

 

[Cat on Mars]

I wasn't chewing you out, though?

I get you were frustrated because you were arguing with MM's stubborness, but...

Is wanting one's sentiments to be accurately represented defensive (weirdly or otherwise)?

It looked like that.



I mean you are the cool, reasonable guy and I'm the stubborn hothead. This feels wrong.

 

[Master Bates]

I didn't even notice any romantic/"shippy" interactions between C/T and C/A during the Shinra HQ invasion because I was too busy trying to understand what was going on.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I get you were frustrated because you were arguing with MM's stubborness, but...

It looked like that.



I mean you are the cool, reasonable guy and I'm the stubborn hothead. This feels wrong.

Lol I can see how it looked that way. Sorry. Promise I wasn't trying to come off that way with you, though. I should have worded that more as "wanting to be accurately understood" or something to that effect.

 

[Final_Heaven]

I do think the shippy moments stop after Chapter 14 but with the Harbingers of Fate defeated, I get the feeling that Aerith is going to change her mind and feel like she has hope for a future with Cloud.

There's no way that she's not an option for the GC date.

Of course, she'll later realize that "no, it was always meant to be this way".

 

[MasterMoogle]

Generally not a good idea to cite a source whose observations refute your claim when speaking for themselves, and to then ignore that source when they say you're wrong. =P

Let us not pretend you weren't trying to speak to a general notion of "how people actually work" when bringing up the three-weeks thing. I really am going to insist you practice good faith discussion.

Anyway, we all know that's what you were attempting to speak to: how people actually work. Yet here's a real person telling you that you got how I work wrong -- and I'm not nearly so vain as to think I'm unique in this way.

I'm not going to insist, though, that everyone works the same either. Perhaps we could all do that.



So, the word doesn't mean Aerith had romantic feelings for Cloud (i.e. it doesn't mean ... what it means) in this particular instance ... because it would make you wrong? =|

Is it not a lot more likely a possibility that you're just wrong?



I have no idea what this is in response to, but debating any of this is probably as worthwhile as slamming one's own cock in a car door.



That's not a point I was making either, so ...



Who knows? More importantly, who cares? You suggested the developers may not have even intended a notion of wavering in the first place.

Again, I'm going to have to insist you start debating in good faith and practicing intellectual honesty.



My list of "Points I Wasn't Making That You Insist On Responding To" is getting long.


Really, that was her only intended purpose in Cloud's story?

A subject that didn't come up until the sequel released eight years later? A sequel the developers had no idea they would be making?

1) Is it operating in good faith to ignore the majority of someone's argument? As a rule of thumb I tend to ignore anecdotes in debates because they tend to lead to expressions of righteous indignation and drama. Again, not about you. Just personal experience. Trying to attach ulterior motives to me is not operating in good faith either.

2) So when was Cloud ever her "boyfriend/lover"? Because that is what the word means. I never said she doesn't have any romantic feelings for Cloud. But it's not love, as evidenced by what was actually shown in-game.

3) Not even gonna comment on that, LOL.

4) Cloud never agreed to Jessie's pizza either, but he still mentioned it during her death scene as if he agreed to it. Same situation with Aerith and being her bodyguard. Aerith's assertiveness dominated in that situation. He went along with it, and allowed her to dictate the nature of their partnership. Call it "implied consent" if you want, but no deal was struck.

5) I am being intellectually honest. Sometimes I'm not responding to you specifically. You were quoting Kitase rhetorically, and so I am responding to Kitase's quote. Sorry to say, but Kitase is wrong.

To claim that Cloud is "wavering" between two women is to imply that Cloud is actively pursuing these women. He's not. Cloud is never shown making use of his agency to that degree in the original game. The player is given the illusion of choice based on who he's nicer to, and then the player is stripped of that illusion when Aerith dies. At no point does Cloud "waver" or behave as if he's torn between two women. That's not how the mechanics or story of the original ff7 are setup.

And no, I don't treat quotes from the developers as overriding to what was actually shown in the game. Dumbledore isn't gay until there's little ambiguity left within the pages of the book, to use an analogy. If developers put out statements that outright contradict their own creation, I'll point it out, SUCH AS the "koibito" line from Nojima.

6) After going back to some scenes in the original, I'll also mention Aerith's death is also meant to help Cloud reconnect with his emotions and realize he's not just a "puppet" as Seph calls him.

As for guilt:

 

[Cat on Mars]

To claim that Cloud is "wavering" between two women is to imply that Cloud is actively pursuing these women. He's not. Cloud is never shown making use of his agency to that degree in the original game. The player is given the illusion of choice based on who he's nicer to, and then the player is stripped of that illusion when Aerith dies. At no point does Cloud "waver" or behave as if he's torn between two women. That's not how the mechanics or story of the original ff7 are setup.

I think you're being too literal with Japanese phrasing and that's not advisable.
I don't agree with your interpretation that "wavering" means he's actively pursuing both girls. I always understood it as "Cloud favors both girls and that's why he can't just go after one of them, he's a mess". This doesn't mean he can't choose, this means he is not able to make that decision because he lacks the means and situation to do so. If that makes sense.


@The Twilight Mexican No problem, misunderstandings happen! But you've made me act all reasonable today and I'm not sure I can forgive you for that.

 

[minami758]

I do think the shippy moments stop after Chapter 14 but with the Harbingers of Fate defeated, I get the feeling that Aerith is going to change her mind and feel like she has hope for a future with Cloud.

I thought this too and then Zack showed up, so I don't know anymore.

 

[MasterMoogle]

I think you're being too literal with Japanese phrasing and that's not advisable.
I don't agree with your interpretation that "wavering" means he's actively pursuing both girls. I always understood it as "Cloud favors both girls and that's why he can't just go after one of them, he's a mess". This doesn't mean he can't choose, this means he is not able to ebcause he lacks teh means and situation to do so. If it makes sense.


@The Twilight Mexican No problem, misunderstandings happen! But you've made me act all reasonable today and I'm not sure I can't forgive you for that.

Yah, probably something got lost in translation. However, one has to ask, how much of Cloud's feelings/preferences are determined by the player?

You're nitpicking. Either way, the agreement happened. Cloud agreed to the general agreement thru implied consent, which also includes agreeing to the terms and conditions of the agreement by necessary implication (and by Cloud's non-dissent). The agreement, preceded by a meet-cute, was made with playful romantic connotations. It is a "shippy" moment.

Like I said before, it's no different than Cloud's agreement to Jessie's pizza. He went along with it passively, and only agreed to it retroactively on her deathbed.

The fact that Cloud doesn't mention the date at all is evidence of this. Not a shippy moment beyond it involving them interacting with eachother, IMO.

 

[Cat on Mars]

Why did you chose to quote my post befose I edited the typos?!

Yah, probably something got lost in translation. However, one has to ask, how much of Cloud's feelings are determined by the player?

Hmm. In the remake, I think choices don't matter much and all this LTD is a big nothingburger. In the OG, I've always felt that Cloud isn't himself and that's why you can make the choices for him. After he regains his sense of self, you can't really choose how he acts towards anybody, and the HW scene is more a testament to his previous state of mind than anything else.

 

[MasterMoogle]

Why did you chose to quote my post befose I edited the typos!

To preserve your shame for all eternity, of course.

Hmm. In the remake, I think choices don't matter much and all this LTD is a big nothingburger. In the OG, I've always felt that Cloud isn't himself and that's why you can make the choices for him. After he regains his sense of self, you can't really choose how he acts towards anybody, and the HW scene is more a testament to that than anything else.

To be fair, there are two versions of the highwind scene, one with high/low affection. However, I don't know when the cutoff point is for how you treat Tifa.

 

[Eerie]

I'm starting to think that maybe Cloud and Aeriths total lack of romantic interactions at Shinra HQ has something to do with Aerith going full Cetra? Like the more she accepts her role as a Ancient the further she becomes detached from the others?

Yeah that's what I was getting at earlier. I thought so too, too, but I don't really know clerith motifs because they don't really speak to me as romantic, hence the heated discussion right now. You're all welcome guys

@MasterMoogle I understand your train of thoughts there, especially regarding Aerith, Tifa and their respective roles in the story, however the fact that Aerith's role is tied to the overarching plot of the story doesn't mean she's to be written off the romance plot. She isn't meant to be Cloud's beloved, but that doesn't mean that there is nothing between the two. Love can blossom fast, especially in fighting adversity - an old, reused trope. Her role is less in the romance plot, but it's there, it's undeniable. I think that's what people are telling you. It's true that in the grand scheme of things, it has little bearing on the ending of the romance subplot, but feelings are still there, from both side. Even if nothing comes out of it - and it may be what makes their appeal to some people, because they can let their imagination run wild with it.

Also, because it was quoted here earlier, here is an interview with an interesting quote:

After all these years, we need to ask: who's a better fit for Cloud? Tifa or Aerith?

Kitase: We never talk about how characters relate with each other outside of what is depicted in the game. Our only focus has been how best to depict the characters in an appealing way as part of the remake.

However, I also love to see the exciting discussions among the fans within the community and it’s something we’ve seen since the original game released!

So I think people shouldn't think too much that devs only think about the LTD when writing the Remake, it's clearly not the priority there.

 

[MasterMoogle]

Something I'm curious about, what does Aerith's line "follow the yellow flowers" mean? She said this in relation to mentioning how everytime the Whispers touch her, she loses a piece of herself, if that helps.

 

[Final_Heaven]

To preserve your shame for all eternity, of course.



To be fair, there are two versions of the highwind scene, one with high/low affection. However, I don't know when the cutoff point is for how you treat Tifa.

The cutoff point is Disc one.

 

[Cat on Mars]

To preserve your shame for all eternity, of course

I edited my post to be more specific (I had the last laugh!). I think it doesn't matter if you get the HA or the LA scene: either way, you're watching how Cloud wasn't himself and how that affected him and his relationships with other characters, and specially his relationship with Tifa.
And I think you can't win more points even before the Golden Saucer date so it kinda proves my point.

 

[Final_Heaven]

Something I'm curious about, what does Aerith's line "follow the yellow flowers" mean? She said this in relation to mentioning how everytime the Whispers touch her, she loses a piece of herself, if that helps.

Watch as we see yellows going up the path to where she's murdered

 

[LNK]

I don't agree with your interpretation that "wavering" means he's actively pursuing both girls. I always understood it as "Cloud favors both girls and that's why he can't just go after one of them, he's a mess". This doesn't mean he can't choose, this means he is not able to make that decision because he lacks the means and situation to do so. If that makes sense.

That's how I look at it too. I mean, Cloud did recently wake up from a years long Mako bath. He's got the mentality of a 16 year old.

 

[Graymouse]

@Purple for the highway scene it's after the team destroys the helicopter, Cloud and Aerith have a "You good?" "Somehow" exchange , similar to another moment from earlier in the game where Cloud asks "You okay" and Aerith replies with "All good! … I think"

When did this happen during the highway scene? , I mean the audio part, not the visual. The reason why I am saying asking this is because you can switch from both sides of the truck during the battle and take a picture and say that this happened very easily. I am not saying you or anyone did that. I just want to see the actual scene in the game. I don't remember Cloud checking specifically on Aerith during that part of the game. I could have missed it.

 

[RhinoKart]

When did this happen during the highway scene? , I mean the audio part, not the visual. The reason why I am saying asking this is because you can switch from both sides of the truck during the battle and take a picture and say that this happened very easily. I am not saying you or anyone did that. I just want to see the actual scene in the game. I don't remember Cloud checking specifically on Aerith during that part of the game. I could have missed it.

It is immedatly following the truck almost being destroyed by the helicoptor. It is a cutscene so you have no control over what side Cloud is on. He is on Aerith's side of the truck and asks them (or maybe just her depending on how you want to view it) if they are okay, and Aerith responds.

It does happen, I wouldn't say it is shippy but I think Maiden's point was that on both sides people claim every tiny little moment as being shippy, in which case this could count as a C/A moment.

 

[MasterMoogle]

I edited my post to be more specific (I had the last laugh!). I think it doesn't matter if you get the HA or the LA scene: either way, you're watching how Cloud wasn't himself and how that affected him and his relationships with other characters, and specially his relationship with Tifa.
And I think you can't win more points even before the Golden Saucer date so it kinda proves my point.

Doesn't that reinforce my original point(in response to Kitase's quote) though? It's not Cloud's agency being pulled between Aerith and Tifa's. It's the players. And as I said, it's ultimately merely the illusion of choice, because you end up with Tifa regardless.

 

[Cat on Mars]

Yes.
It's FFVII, it's meta, they wanted to fuck with our heads.

 

[Graymouse]

When did this happen during the highway scene? , I mean the audio part, not the visual. The reason why I am saying asking this is because you can switch from both sides of the truck during the battle and take a picture and say that this happened very easily. I am not saying you or anyone did that. I just want to see the actual scene in the game. I don't remember Cloud checking specifically on Aerith during that part of the game. I could have missed it.

It is immedatly following the truck almost being destroyed by the helicoptor. It is a cutscene so you have no control over what side Cloud is on. He is on Aerith's side of the truck and asks them (or maybe just her depending on how you want to view it) if they are okay, and Aerith responds.

It does happen, I wouldn't say it is shippy but I think Maiden's point was that on both sides people claim every tiny little moment as being shippy, in which case this could count as a C/A moment.

I found the video, I got what you are saying. My first time around, I didn't see it as a shippy moment, but I can see how it could be. I mainly saw it as Cloud checking on everyone that was in the truck and Aerith answering him. Also, and the reason I say this is because right after Red XIII ask if Cloud is alright. So, I could assume when Cloud asked it wasn't specially to Aerith but mostly to the group that was in the truck. Especailly after the Whispers "saved" them from dying back there.

Edited to fix the timing on the video.
PSS: Edited to add some more thoughts.