SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

odekopeko

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Peko
I thought even the Japanese VAs do not get much insight into the direction of the story. I'm always surprised by how little they know until they start recording. How would the English VAs know?

I forgot to welcome you, @Elyssis.

I'm kinda new here too. :)

Btw, I will read over your response and will respond later as well. But because you got me looking at Aerith's Resolution scene again, I was a bit weirded out by it. By the camera angle, that is. Particularly when she says, "Even if you do, it's only in your imagination." Not sure what the English version says. I think it's "not real."

Why in the world did they place the camera angle in front, but Aerith is looking at Cloud who is to the far right of the frame instead? Am I just imagining things?
IMG_20200613_225232.jpg
I'm saying this because when the camera is in front and Cloud is looking at the character, we are also seeing the same angle he is seeing, like here:
Screenshot_20200613-233545(1).png
Just for aesthetic purposes?
 

Maidenofwar

They/Them
Given I suffer from a mental illness I find even feelings that come from when not always being in the right frame of mind still extremely valid.

Also-


Article talks about night time date and staff confirms (again) that section of the game was made with a flow in mind from the beginning, such as the date atmosphere with Aerith so it is a good review (in other words, probably, accurate) Since multiple members of staff, I'm not just referring to Bri or EN team, but the at least three or so others so far, keep talking about the CxA romantic things in the game I think it stands.
 
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loozzer

Pro Adventurer
Given I suffer from a mental illness I find even feelings that come from when not always being in the right frame of mind still extremely valid.

Also-


i don't think anyone is denying that there's a romantic element to cloud/aerith interactions in the game. i thought several scenes were very romantic. their relationship was romantic in the OG as well. but personally, i don't see how the game will deviate away from cloud/tifa as endgame. so far, everything is playing out as it did in the OG.
 

Final_Heaven

Pro Adventurer
Given I suffer from a mental illness I find even feelings that come from when not always being in the right frame of mind still extremely valid.

Also-


I wouldn't really equate what Cloud has to mental illness tbh.

There are some parts equivalent to that but not the "alien cells in your body creating a new personality for you out of your crush's memories of you, a dead best friend and your ideal self after your personality shatters".

It's almost not even the same person.

Almost like "The Narrator and Tyler Durden"
 

Elyssis

Lv. 1 Adventurer
No worries, I still haven't figured out how to format things properly. I realized I never welcomed you so let me do that first!

You have some interesting points and I'd like to respond to all of them properly, but it is 2am for me so that will have to wait till tomorrow so my post will be coherent.
Haha, thank you so much!
One thing I am curious about though, is even if the sewer and Tifa resolution scene are about pushing Clerith (we'll agree to disagree on this one for now), do you feel that the rest of the game was pushing Clerith as well? The general impression many of us got was that it was pushing Cloti, and I'd just really love to hear another perspective!
I feel that it was pushing both Clerith and Cloti, but that Clerith came out slightly ahead due to things like the blatant romantic resolution scene and having the main theme Hollow almost certainly be about Cloud’s feelings for Aerith. After conversing with several of you, I already feel that things are more balanced than I initially perceived. And of course, I have a preference for Clerith so that may just be my bias speaking.
You know you don't have to spoil your comments. You can just leave them. Spoilering them actually make it harder to respond to. Anyways, I'll just respond to these comments
Thank you for the tip, I will keep that in mind in the future.
Yes, it ties into her fate. Aerith dies and she never gets to meet the real Cloud. She never gets past the illusion. The reason that I say it sinks the ship if we take her words at face value is because we're meant to be aware here that Aerith knows she dies early and that Cloud is not who he says he is. If she's calling any potential romantic feelings from Cloud for her invalid then that feeds into what people have been saying about Cloud x Aerith for ages.

So those romantic feelings don't currently stem from the real Cloud. They stem from the artificial personality. Cloud's feelings for Tifa predate the current fabrication. That's not to say he won't have any romantic feelings for Aerith once the real Cloud comes back but they would inevitably change and it won't be the same.

There's a pretty good rant on this from another Tumblr user:

We may have to agree to disagree on this one. Aerith knowing she is going to die is a separate issue from Cloud’s muddled memories. Remake Aerith has some level of knowledge of the events of the OG. The Ultimania Omega says that Aerith “saw through to the essence of Cloud” before she died, so I believe that Aerith did see through to the real Cloud beneath the facade. Even if she did not, OG Aerith’s existence did not stop with her death. She observed Cloud from the Lifestream at least until after Sephiroth was defeated, so even if she didn’t know the real him before she died in the OG, she certainly did by the end of the OG; thus Remake Aerith knows the real Cloud.

As I stated to another user, I don’t agree that Cloud’s muddled memory prevented him from from developing legitimate relationships with others. The proof of this is that after the Lifestream sequence in the OG, Cloud does not act as though he has no knowledge of AVALANCHE despite having met all of them while under his false persona. He doesn’t treat them as strangers. The feelings he developed for them over the course of the game remain, even if his manner of expressing himself has changed. Therefore, I think it stands to reason that whatever feelings Cloud developed for Aerith while under his false persona are completely legitimate and his own. It’s not as though there is no truth at all in Cloud’s false persona - his standoffish defense mechanism and awkwardness and kindness are all part of his real personality.

If you reject Aerith's flower, Aerith tells Cloud that his girlfriend would like it which leads to Cloud trying to buy it from Aerith while thinking of Tifa.
Fair enough. I agree that Cloud giving Tifa the flower is evidence of Cloud’s romantic interest in Tifa. I still believe that Tifa’s conversation in her resolution scene weakens the romantic implications therein, but doesn’t erase it entirely. Again, it may be a subject we have to agree to disagree on.
I feel like the argument is just a variation of "Tifa's apparent jealousy as indicative of Cloud's having feelings for Aerith because they're part of the LTD". We've been thru this angle before with BB.

Tifa's feelings are her own; Cloud's feelings are his. Tifa's apprehension are indicative of her feelings of insecurity. It does not necessarily inform us of Cloud's romantic feelings for either girls. In this Remake, Cloud is portrayed to be developing feelings for Aerith (whatever those feelings are). Whereas his feelings for Tifa are made even more palpable than it was during the Midgar part of the OG to create an even better foundation for what's to come.

You can say the Remake is pushing for Clerith more, but I disagree. I just couldn't see it.
I see where you are coming from, but I do think that Tifa’s jealousy is more than just her insecurity speaking (though I agree that certainly exacerbates the issue) since we know Cloud canonically has romantic feelings for both girls. It may be an issue of bias on my part, but after the scenes in chapter 3, I thought Cloud’s romantic interest in Tifa was not as strongly presented as his romantic interest in Aerith. I fully admit I could be reading things wrong, especially since I seem to be in the minority on this. We’ll have to see what future episodes bring.
That said, SE is not killing off Cloud. He's the protagonist of a Final "Fantasy" game. He is not dying for both Watsonian and Doylistic reasons (thanks for the words, Theo).
Noctis is also the protagonist of a Final Fantasy game, and they still killed him. Regardless, it’s not really important. Just a possibility I thought worth considering.
 

Final_Heaven

Pro Adventurer
We may have to agree to disagree on this one. Aerith knowing she is going to die is a separate issue from Cloud’s muddled memories. Remake Aerith has some level of knowledge of the events of the OG. The Ultimania Omega says that Aerith “saw through to the essence of Cloud” before she died, so I believe that Aerith did see through to the real Cloud beneath the facade. Even if she did not, OG Aerith’s existence did not stop with her death. She observed Cloud from the Lifestream at least until after Sephiroth was defeated, so even if she didn’t know the real him before she died in the OG, she certainly did by the end of the OG; thus Remake Aerith knows the real Cloud.

As I stated to another user, I don’t agree that Cloud’s muddled memory prevented him from from developing legitimate relationships with others. The proof of this is that after the Lifestream sequence in the OG, Cloud does not act as though he has no knowledge of AVALANCHE despite having met all of them while under his false persona. He doesn’t treat them as strangers. The feelings he developed for them over the course of the game remain, even if his manner of expressing himself has changed. Therefore, I think it stands to reason that whatever feelings Cloud developed for Aerith while under his false persona are completely legitimate and his own. It’s not as though there is no truth at all in Cloud’s false persona - his standoffish defense mechanism and awkwardness and kindness are all part of his real personality.

Well if we go by "Maiden of the Planet", Aerith admits there that she never really knew Cloud.

The Ultimania Omega only states that she knew something was off with Cloud not that she knew the real Cloud.

“I’m looking for you.“…"So you won’t have a breakdown.” - what Aerith told Cloud had many deep meanings. Aerith detected that the present Cloud is not the real him during their encounters. She knows it because of her mysterious, inherent ability. -pg. 29, FFVII Ultimania Omega

And I don't think Remake! Aerith knows everything OG! Aerith knows by the end.

Remake! Aerith seems to have big snippets not full knowledge or else she wouldn't be talking about some of the things she does if she knew.

Anyways, Real Cloud and Cloud don't really fuse personalities. Post Mideel Cloud doesn't seem to be a chimera between Cloud and Real Cloud. It's all Real Cloud.

So even with Real Cloud inheriting all the memories and feelings of Cloud, he's going to have his own perspective on things. How can he not? He has full knowledge of himself. His identity is back.

He's not going to feel the exact same way about things that Cloud did.

So I think that's kinda why I see this scene as adding validating that train of thought:

Aerith.png
 
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odekopeko

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Peko
do think that Tifa’s jealousy is more than just her insecurity speaking (though I agree that certainly exacerbates the issue) since we know Cloud canonically has romantic feelings for both girls. It may be an issue of bias on my part, but after the scenes in chapter 3, I thought Cloud’s romantic interest in Tifa was not as strongly presented as his romantic interest in Aerith

Let's say she felt jealous or insecure with Aerith? Cloud still manages to do stuff like this after that sewer bit and she's not the one grabbing onto him:
IMG_20200614_002736.jpgIMG_20200614_002739.jpgIMG_20200614_002743.jpg

I really don't think her insecurities have anything to do with Cloud's feelings or pushes Clerith. Or that it wasn't as strongly presented. I never understood that line of reasoning. He obviously cares for both girls and displays that over and over again.

I do think there was less romance/date stuff after Aerith and Tifa meet up in general. We got way more AerTi than we did Clerith or Cloti. I'd say +1 for AerTi, and equally balanced for the other pairings.
 

Final_Heaven

Pro Adventurer
Haha, thank you so much!

I feel that it was pushing both Clerith and Cloti, but that Clerith came out slightly ahead due to things like the blatant romantic resolution scene and having the main theme Hollow almost certainly be about Cloud’s feelings for Aerith. After conversing with several of you, I already feel that things are more balanced than I initially perceived. And of course, I have a preference for Clerith so that may just be my bias speaking.

I shall counter Hollow with Midgar Blues which while being a smaller song is also textually more romantic and has some big implications embedded within it on Cloud and Tifa's relationship.

English translation:

vlmxtb92f6151.jpg


Literal JP version:

In the blue night, I struck out from my hometown

On the ticket, I gripped on one hand

It said Midgar-bound

The good-byes we couldn't say melt into the Lifestream

The stars fall into the unseen sky

I look up to see the starry sky of my hometown

The shooting star I watched with you

Pained by the unshrinking distance that keeps us from connecting

I heard the stirrings in my chest

The soft air between us

 

looneymoon

they/them
AKA
Rishi
Why in the world did they place the camera angle in front, but Aerith is looking at Cloud who is to the far right of the frame instead? Am I just imagining things?
View attachment 6681
I'm saying this because when the camera is in front and Cloud is looking at the character, we are also seeing the same angle he is seeing, like here:
View attachment 6682
Just for aesthetic purposes?

Just wanted to comment an insight on this!

I just rewatched the scene and I don't think the camera work was a mistake. Cloud's eyes are shifting at this point (look at her shoes, look over there). Advent Children created a narrative motif where he is not able to look her in the eye, so to speak.

In the pre production hype for AC, Aerith's eyes were never shown. This was because its a pretty pivotal moment when Cloud is able to face her, guiltlessly. I recently rewatched ACC, and Zack isn't given quite the same treatment. We fully see his face, and the reveal is not framed quite so dramatically.

So, what I am offering is this: the camera work is probably meant to provide a metanarrative context. On one hand, Aerith is breaking the 4th wall - she's addressing the player as much as she is addressing Cloud. On top of that, this is a narrative piece that calls directly to Advent Children. This line, and Cloud looking her squarely in the eye, relates directly to the special sort of guilt he feels for her, as well as the long form story telling Square Enix has in mind.

By contrast, the Tifa scene is a bit more literal. When I say that, I mean that the things that it's speaking to are a bit more self contained within the original story's scope.

I haven't read any of the novellas in a hot minute though, so there's probably some stuff I might not be including :oscar:
 
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Eerie

Fire and Blood
First, if you want to quote properly, you have to highlight what you want to quote, hit the quote and then "Insert quote" in your message. Repeat ad nauseam. Also, it's good to have another clerith because we have very few of you. I'm sorry it seems us cloti are so numerous :x

Second, Ultimania quote:

Ultimania said:
—In particular, during the nighttime flower field scene in Chapter 14, Aerith tells Cloud “You can’t fall in love with me. Even if you do, it’s not real.” For those who are familiar with the original story, this line carries a lot of meaning.

Nojima: To be honest, some staff actually told me that this line made it seem like Aerith was looking down on Cloud, so it got rejected a few times. If you know Aerith’s fate, then this line would really pull at your heart strings, but if you did not know what happens to Aerith, then you might interpret the scene in a completely different way. I thought the gap between the two interpretations was very interesting. On another note, in Tifa’s scene in the flower field, I wanted Cloud to not look cool in this scene. Even though Cloud and Tifa are close in age, he has a 5 year blank slate, and he doesn’t have enough life experience to consider himself an adult. Even though most of the characters are around 20 years old, there’s one guy, Cloud, who has the mentality of a 16 year old, and that person tries to be like an adult. I really wanted to write that into the story. After the Sector 7 plate fell, Barret comforted Tifa with the temperament of an adult, and Cloud saw that and wanted to do the same for her [in the flower scene], but it didn’t go as planned. I wanted to try writing him as being awkward.

Nomura: On that same note, when recording Cloud’s voice, we had his voice actor perform his lines slightly differently depending on who he was talking to. For example, when Cloud speaks with Aerith, he stands up and tries to act cool, with Tifa he loosens up a bit, with Jessie he sounds confused. When Cloud speaks with Aerith, he’s too self-conscious and gives weird replies.

The source is Audrey as she has translated all the important and juicy stuff.

Cloud is more like himself around Tifa, but he also is... a 16 years old, emotionally, and in his lack of general experience. That explains a lot of things when you look at Remake with this kind of mindset. He tries to play it cool with Aerith because it's more his Zack side that gets out. BTW read my entire post before replying, because I'll be back to his fake persona in a bit lol.

But when you read Nojima, then yeah, you see true Cloud that emerges with Tifa (which is also why he's got some of his locked memories showing with her). When he looks at his hand in ch4 right after the promise flashback, that's already a prelude to him thinking he must help Tifa. This is also why Cloud is extremely puppy-like around Tifa, because it's his true self that surfaces (very different from his SOLDIER persona).

I bring up that particular portion of Tifa’s resolution scene as pushing Clerith because:
  1. Why is Tifa unhappy that Cloud got the flower from Aerith unless she saw it as some indication of romantic feelings between the two?
  2. If Cloud originally getting the flower from Aerith was insignificant, then why didn’t Cloud just confirm that yes, he got the flower from Aerith? Instead, he is silent and averts his eyes.
  3. Why does Tifa laugh unhappily after Cloud’s silence to her initial statement about the flower? What do you think she means when she says, “I knew there was something weird going on. You, buying flowers.” Is she not unhappy about the effect Aerith has on Cloud?
  4. Why is Cloud silent, again, instead of saying something to effect of, “It’s not like that.”?
  5. Why is the source of the flower being brought up at all? Why bring it up in Tifa’s resolution scene?

The flower is a motif that they used throughout Remake to connect Aerith, Cloud and Tifa. It's not limited to Cloud and Aerith, as I've seen people arguing - you can see the flower's motif on Tifa's rug in her room when she is there with Cloud for example. It's a nice addition, but through this flower, Cloud hurts both girls by lying to them - Tifa he doesn't explain, mainly I think because he wants to look cool while giving her the flower, Aerith by lying and saying he doesn't remember. Why does he lie to Aerith? IMHO, it's because he doesn't want to talk about Tifa. Not especially to Aerith, but simply because his relationship with Tifa is still blurry to him. She is important, special as Aerith stresses twice (in sector 5, but also when she presses Cloud to run after Tifa in front of the Wall Market, the fact that they erased it in English is spooky, but it exists in both JP and French so...). But Cloud is unable to pinpoint why she is important to him, and he even physically can't or he'd break down on the spot ala Northern Crater style (just like Zack's memories are locked to him, most of his own memories are locked out).

On your point 2 and 4, Cloud is 16, emotionally speaking. What does a teen do when he's caught red handed? Either he lies, either he shuts up and bathes in his own shame. Cloud's the second kind lol. He also doesn't really know how to express himself, plus he's obviously hurt her when he vowed to protect her. That has to sting.

For the 3rd part, it's simply because she would have loved it if Cloud would bring her flowers ON HIS OWN, if it was his own idea, not because he got flowers somewhere random and gave them to her as an afterthought. I think this hits Cloud right in the feels lol, because he understands perfectly her reaction.

The source of the flower is mentioned because they are standing in those same flowers' bed, and that's what made Tifa realise where the flower came from. Yet they still comfort each other and "reunite" in this very same bed of flowers, with a big allusion to the Highwind scene (I only talk about the HA version since it's the canon one). I've even seen people arguing that the water running by, and the long pan out to it was a reference to the Lifestream scene too, which is possible, but not 100% sure about it.

Either way, I disagree that Cloud’s muddled memories have any effect on his feelings or his ability to make genuine, lasting bonds with people.

I agree, he has feelings for Aerith. His bonds are important to him, but the thing is, right now, during the ch14 resolution, you have to take into account that he's known Aerith for a grand TWO days. I don't think it's romantic yet, just like I don't think Cloud understands his feelings for Tifa (they're locked away for again a good part of Remake). So he wavers between the two because the connections are being made, but he's inexperienced, and doesn't understand his own self yet.

The thing is, Aerith knows he's not his true self, as referenced in her resolution scene. And she also has her own love for Zack, whom she is clearly not over yet, even though she's finally trying to move on from, at this point of the story. What Zack being alive in an AU timeline is yet to remain being understood, I guess we'll just have to wait.

In the scene with Leslie, Cloud is thinking about Aerith. Leslie says “Was it a message? What was she trying to tell me?” then the camera pans to Cloud’s surprised, then pensive expression. Cloud is clearly wondering what Aerith was trying to tell him with the flower and then Tifa, being empathetic, chimes in about it meaning “we’ll meet again” giving hope to both Leslie and Cloud that they will be reunited with their respective missing persons.

I think that's a little bit a stretch? We don't know what he's thinking at that moment, but the significance of the flower finally hits him. The reunion between Cloud and Aerith has been lackluster, so to me, I think that he just finally understood the symbol of hope the 3 (! with Leslie's fiancée) put on this flower. I don't know if I can venture in more territory, based on what we saw, because we know it's important to him to go save Aerith.

Why in the world did they place the camera angle in front, but Aerith is looking at Cloud who is to the far right of the frame instead? Am I just imagining things?

She looks SO SAD in this frame. So so sad. She knows it's not the real him, that she doesn't know the real him, and that those feelings he's beginning to nurture don't have a solid foundation enough. That pains her, but when he says that he's going to come and save her, that makes her happier. There's a lot of sadness in Aerith's resolution, IMHO, more than romance.
 

Ruri

Pro Adventurer
Welcome @Elyssis!

Like @Maidenofwar pointed out, there are a ton of references to SE staff talking about C/A interactions in a positive light/using the word romantic so if there's any doubt in anyone's mind that C/A could be read as a romantic dynamic in part one, well, you're wrong. Not that it needs verbal proof.

I'm trying to see people who see C/A as being the predominant pairing and it's easy when you base it on this pairing has a confident leader, who is honestly just interested in the getting to know and spending time with the main male character. C/T are alike in equal footing in contrast, cautiously enthusiastic when agreeing to a date/spending time together, and then they are interrupted mostly by circumstances. Aerith and Cloud just had a genuine good day hauling about the sector 5 slums and that was Aerith's transparent intention.

I'm not sure I agree on Tifa's resolution pushing C/A. It's dismissive of Tifa's pain. The plate just dropped, thousands were killed, her home is gone. Don't make it about romance, the story is more than nitpicking at scenes to allot more points in the direction of another pairing. Cloud and Aerith have a pretty romantic resolution to themselves and it is getting a bit grating to see people use Tifa's trait of being insecure to further a narrative in the other direction. Especially using a scene where she is distraught.

Don't forget that in the OG, Tifa getting the flower is entirely at the mercy of the player. Remake she gets it, no buts about it. There is also a pretty significant camera pan on Aerith and the flower when she rescues Marlene. Even if the flower was destroyed with every thing, I feel the story reminded you that Cloud giving the flower to Tifa is pretty significant.

Just taking from that change from the OG to the remake, it was a clear move on SE's part to keep things equal between the girls, and the flower is now dead for all three of them.

As for Cloud being killed off, the first thing I thought of was Nojima saying 'Cloud is still young, I could write more for the compilation with this in mind' not exactly his words, someone correct them, but you get the gist. Nojima would be interested in writing more in Cloud's story because he's still early 20's. That plus, Kitase saying:

I can’t give you full details exactly how many times, where they’re referenced, or anything like that, but what I want to let you know is that all of the lore from the works created after the original game, the Compilation of Final Fantasy 7, that’s all very much in the base of the canon for the remake, and going forward it will be too

Just comprehending the entirety of Cloud's story and development in the compilation, plus Nojima entertaining the thought of writing more for Cloud, it makes it a little difficult to allow any inch of belief they will off him for... remake dramatic effect?
 
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Master Bates

Do you enjoy your life?
AKA
Mr. Koiwai
Elyssis said:
I see where you are coming from, but I do think that Tifa’s jealousy is more than just her insecurity speaking (though I agree that certainly exacerbates the issue) since we know Cloud canonically has romantic feelings for both girls. It may be an issue of bias on my part, but after the scenes in chapter 3, I thought Cloud’s romantic interest in Tifa was not as strongly presented as his romantic interest in Aerith. I fully admit I could be reading things wrong, especially since I seem to be in the minority on this. We’ll have to see what future episodes bring.

I strongly disagree, especially with the bolded part.

Cloud's whole schtick is his inability to verbally express himself, thus he expresses his feelings thru his body language---the CloTi motif ("words aren't the only way to tell you how you feel"). This gimmick also applies to Tifa. Throughout the entire Remake, from the beginning to the end, he is shown to be most physically intimate with Tifa. Very blatantly, I might add, that they're impossible to miss unless one is deliberate in missing them. This is their language. He saves her numerous times, and she returns the favor shortly after the Rufus fight. This goes on even after Cloud becomes properly acquainted with Aerith (and even in scenes when he is with Aerith) and even up to the very final fight with Sephiroth. Many of Cloud and Tifa's physical communication occurs in non-optional scenes. Given that this Cloud is not wholly himself, the fact that he keeps on running to Tifa's aid as if his body is in automatic mode is pretty telling enough of the feelings that the RealCloud has towards her and is currently hidden in his subconscious, bursting at the seams in certain instances and trying to be set free. This also serves as a call back to their promise, which is very very important to Cloud. Their story is told thru their actions, and there is much tension there---sexual and otherwise---that needs to be resolved. I can surmise that this is a deliberate move by SE.

On the contrary, his romantic moments with Aerith have declined after Chapter 14. They barely had any romantic tension in the Shinra Tower, at least from my impression. And even during Cloud's scenes with Aerith prior to Shinra infiltration, there were instances when Cloud brings up the subject of Tifa himself---unprompted. He never did this same favor for Aerith when he's with Tifa. After the plate drops when you talk to Rhodea, he asks Cloud if he was able to "get back the thing that was important to him". Cloud answers "yes", to which Rhodea responds with "never lose it again" (or something like that). Considering that his whole meeting with Rhodea was him asking for assistance in trying to get back Tifa (the "something important"), it is fairly reasonable to assume that the conversation was referring to Tifa. It couldn't be Aerith because she was with him the entire Wall Market sequence, and he lost Aerith by this time.

If we're going to put stock on Tifa's insecurities as proof of Clerith, then it should be fair to consider Aerith's reactions towards Cloud's relationship with Tifa. The most telling are her reaction upon seeing the flower at Seventh Heaven, where she showed a peaceful, knowing smile. The other is when she told Tifa to "follow her heart" (which I still find cheesy), after which Tifa ran to---guess who?---Cloud. Until now I still don't know why SE decided to slow-mo their hand grab scene. Seriously, why? What's the significance? There has to be. I don't know, I think this one's worth mentioning. Still, I'd say these reactions from our girls aren't definite indications of Cloud's feelings to either of them. As already said, Cloud's feelings are his and the only way we'll know what they are is to examine his actions and not glean it from the impressions of those around him, especially in this time when he is not truly himself. And from my assessment, his entire body language screams Tifa.

SE is dropping lots of not-so-subtle clues towards a Cloud-Tifa resolution. I doubt they're gonna drop the ball on them and not provide payoff. On the other hand, SE is providing itself an exit route for Cloud-Aerith in their Chapter 14 resolution scene.

Just to be clear. I'm not saying Cloud has no romantic tension with Aerith. He has. It's not just as strong and as sexually charged as his tension with Tifa. So I cannot agree with the notion that Remake Part 1 is pushing Clerith more because after examining it while taking into account both Cloti and Clerith moments, that is not the impression and conclusion that I arrived at.

Elyssis said:
Noctis is also the protagonist of a Final Fantasy game, and they still killed him. Regardless, it’s not really important. Just a possibility I thought worth considering.

I don't know. I never played FFXV. Regardless, FFXV is telling a different story than FFVII. I don't know how popular XV is compared to VII, but SE is just not killing Cloud, who (aside from other numerous reasons) is a major cash cow. They'd be shooting themselves on the foot if they do so. Not only that, they'd be betraying FFVII's narrative. It will come back to bite them in the ass.

looneymoon said:
So, what I am offering is this: the camera work is probably meant to provide a metanarrative context. On one hand, Aerith is breaking the 4th wall - she's addressing the player as much as she is addressing Cloud. On top of that, this is a narrative piece that calls directly to Advent Children. This line, and Cloud looking her squarely in the eye, relates directly to the special sort of guilt he feels for her, as well as the long form story telling Square Enix has in mind.

Honeymoon, that was definitely what I got from the scene. I felt that Aerith was talking to me because I genuinely fell in love with this Aerith, but I know of her upcoming fate. I know she's also talking to Cloud, but her resolution scene is definitely more layered than Tifa's and Barret's. The illusion of her speaking directly to me was just my first and strongest impression. I actually felt my heart beat faster in that part, both because she's cute and because I'm anxious of what's to come for her.

With Tifa's, I feel like I'm a voyeur watching an intimate exchange between two people. It was simultaneously uncomfortable and slightly exciting, not to mention heartbreaking (when you get to hear about Tifa's losses).
 
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Yeji738494

Lv. 1 Adventurer
AKA
Yeji
Cloud not being able to explain what Tifa is to him is a thing in the game. I don’t think he likes talking about Tifa to other people. And about tifa’s resolution... he doesn’t respond when she says the flower is from aerith because he’s kind of embarrassed. When he gave the flower to Tifa he was smooth about it, as if he planned it. In tifa’s resolution she obviously finds that wasn’t the case. That was not tifa’s focus at all anyway. She’s in pain because her home was destroyed.
 

looneymoon

they/them
AKA
Rishi
Welcome @Elyssis!

Like @Maidenofwar pointed out, there are a ton of references to SE staff talking about C/A interactions in a positive light/using the word romantic so if there's any doubt in anyone's mind that C/A could be read as a romantic dynamic in part one, well, you're wrong. Not that is needs verbal proof.

I just wanted to single this statement out, because this is something I agree with, but it also brings into question something I always felt a little strange about with regard to this discussion:

The applicable use of the word "canon."

Without going into too much detail, the way fandoms use the term is much different from what its intended purpose is in the literary world. FF7 has used the term in a kind of way that I haven't really seen in other active fandoms, at least in a good while. I always understood it as referring to everything that's in the story, rather than the point of the story at its conclusion.

That is to say, when taking everything as it is, I think C/T and C/A are both "canon." I mean that in the sense that both romances are part of creator intent. I think both are demonstratably true to the storyline. Maybe its because the FF7 LTD started before I saw the widespread use of the word "end game." I mention that term because it might be better wording. Perhaps instead of thinking of C/T as "canon" and C/A as a "fanon" antithesis, there maybe a more palatable phrasing in describing C/T as "end game" vs C/A as "not endgame."

Thoughts? I realize this is just semantic hullabaloo, but I was still curious about the response. I haven't been super knee deep in any fandoms for quite some time, so I might be missing something here. This is something that's crossed my mind years ago, but ridiculous shipping antics kinda obfuscated the need to bring it up :P
 
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Ruri

Pro Adventurer
I think the 'c' word is now lost in the mire for the VII fandom personally. It was rife in the weeks after remake release and that is what made me think on it. One C/T positive scene = C/T is canon. Positive C/A scene = C/A is canon. I remember just being baffled to see obvious statements that are intentional to imply an argument to the opposite side but personally read as other 'c' words like 'checkmate C/* fans!' and 'competition' to me.

I appreciate you bringing up the semantics on it @looneymoon because some of the looks I have given my computer screen after seeing its use recently made me think that the word is manifesting itself differently for our fandom. Perhaps it has already manifested differently but I wish shipping fans would think twice on how they use it. New fans are coming in blindingly ignorant in all innocence after all.
 

Master Bates

Do you enjoy your life?
AKA
Mr. Koiwai
I just wanted to single this statement out, because this is something I agree with, but it also brings into question something I always felt a little strange about with regard to this discussion.

The applicable use of the word "canon."

Without going into too much detail, the way fandoms use the term is much different from what its intended purpose is in the literary world. FF7 had used the term in a kind of way that I haven't really seen other active fandoms, at least in a good while. I always understood it referring to everything that's in the story, rather than the point of the story at its conclusion.

That is to say, when taking everything as it is, I think C/T and C/A are both "canon" in the sense that romance for both is part of creator intent. I think both are demonstratably true to the storyline. Maybe its because the FF7 LTD started before I saw the widespread use of the word "end game." I mention that because it might be better wording. Perhaps instead of thinking of C/T as "canon" and C/A as its"fanon" antithesis, there maybe a more palatable phrasing in describing C/T as "end game" vs C/A as "not endgame."

Thoughts? I realize this is just semantic hullabaloo, but I was still curious about the response. I haven't been super knee deep in any fandoms for quite some time, so I might be missing something here. This is something that's crossed my mind years ago, but ridiculous shipping antics kinda obfuscated the need to bring it up :P

You bring up an interesting point.

Methinks it's because of the origin and history of this debate. Back then, it was either 'this' or 'that' with no in-between. It was either Cloud is only in love with Aerith and wants to follow her to the "Promised Land" (and that he only views Tifa as a 'sibling' or that his love for her is nothing but a childhood crush) or he is only ever in love with Tifa and his feelings for Aerith weren't romantic. That, and the original contention being "Who does Cloud end up with?" If the pairing checks out both boxes then it is the one true canon pairing.

Over the years, people have been more accepting of the notion that he may indeed romantically loved both, but the word 'canon' just stuck and so we simply rolled with it without consciously knowing. Or maybe the word's meaning, in the context of the FFVII LTD, has also evolved to mean something else: the pairing that came to fruition (endgame?), with deliberate creator intent?

Anyway, maybe we can say that the romance in both C/T and C/A are canon and that C/T is the canon endgame? Gotta admit I never really thought about this before until you brought it up.
 

Eerie

Fire and Blood
Haha funny, because I was making the observation lately that while cloti is the canon end pair, it doesn’t diminish what clerith has which is also valid. But I think many here at least have problems with more extreme fans trying to deny the cloti endgame and pretending that only clerith matters. At least here. I think also because we tend to be a lot of cloti fans here, we should be wary of our interpretations as to not fall in the same pitfall where clerith doesn’t exist, that’s why I’m thankful that new cleriths join the discussion! ?
 

Graymouse

Pro Adventurer
I just wanted to single this statement out, because this is something I agree with, but it also brings into question something I always felt a little strange about with regard to this discussion:

The applicable use of the word "canon."

Without going into too much detail, the way fandoms use the term is much different from what its intended purpose is in the literary world. FF7 has used the term in a kind of way that I haven't really seen in other active fandoms, at least in a good while. I always understood it as referring to everything that's in the story, rather than the point of the story at its conclusion.

That is to say, when taking everything as it is, I think C/T and C/A are both "canon." I mean that in the sense that both romances are part of creator intent. I think both are demonstratably true to the storyline. Maybe its because the FF7 LTD started before I saw the widespread use of the word "end game." I mention that term because it might be better wording. Perhaps instead of thinking of C/T as "canon" and C/A as a "fanon" antithesis, there maybe a more palatable phrasing in describing C/T as "end game" vs C/A as "not endgame."

Thoughts? I realize this is just semantic hullabaloo, but I was still curious about the response. I haven't been super knee deep in any fandoms for quite some time, so I might be missing something here. This is something that's crossed my mind years ago, but ridiculous shipping antics kinda obfuscated the need to bring it up :P


I think you bring up an awesome question. I never really liked the word canon to begin with. In all honestly, I think that during the game both Cloud X Aerith and Cloud X TIfa are both canon. I think where a lot of the problems are for fans is the age old question of who ends up with who at the end of the FF7 story arc.
 
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minami758

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Miiwoo
@looneymoon Lol I've thought about this a lot, which is why I tend to avoid using "canon" in LTD debates, and prefer to use "endgame." But I think if we view "endgame" as the goal, then most CA arguments tend to fall apart because, well, she's dead by the end of the game. And there's more than enough evidence to state that Cloud and Tifa sort out their issues and live happily together post-ACC. We've all argued beats of whether Cloud stays single to pine after Aerith while dragging Tifa along for the ride (I'm having BB flashbacks here), and I think most of us find that idea distasteful and out of character. So I guess we've all defaulted to "canon" because the question has sort of become "Who does Cloud love (and there's a silent [more] here)?" which I think is arbitrary anyway because it puts this weird quantity on "love." But I digress.

Welcome Elyssis! I'm relatively new to the forums too, though not particularly new to these debates. Hope you enjoy your time here!

It may be an issue of bias on my part, but after the scenes in chapter 3, I thought Cloud’s romantic interest in Tifa was not as strongly presented as his romantic interest in Aerith.

I don't know why we only see things like red, fireworks, and bridal carries as signs of obvious romantic interest, but yes, if we're talking about traditional romantic motifs, then you can say the romantic intent in Cloud and Aerith's scenes are more in-your-face. And if we want to go in this direction, you could say Cloud is being a good friend to Tifa by comforting her and that their scenes are only platonic. But that, imo, is a willful misreading of their scenes. Many of the CT scenes don't smack you in the face with the word "romance," because it's a slow build up to their climax later in the story.

This is a matter of personal preference, but I actually like that Cloud and Tifa's relationship is "show don't tell." To me, that's one of the key rules of visual storytelling — subtext is king. If you have to say something out loud to make it obvious, then maybe you're not showing it well enough in the story.

I'd actually argue that Cloud and Tifa's interactions are very sexually coded. Their physicality is something that smacks you in the face. Like @Master Bates said, that's their whole schtick. I don't know how someone can twist that train roll as anything other than sexual and/or romantic. That's not a platonic scene — not in its framing or in its content.

Back to Chapter 3+4 interactions though, Tifa and Cloud have quite the flirtatious rapport while they're running around Sector 7 and during the reactor mission, as much as Cloud and Aerith do. Cloud being impressed at Tifa's abilities and vice versa, Tifa teaching Cloud the ropes and him telling her, "I had a patient teacher," and Tifa joking about "not being patient next time/(Jpn) being more strict next time," to which his response is, "Hoo boy/(Jpn) Please do." Cloud calls Tifa "beautiful," he calls her "light" after they jump off the train, compliments her balance, etc. They're just as flirty with each other in those chapters as Aerith is with Cloud in Sector 5.

Cloud takes stock in Tifa's "lessons for life on the ground floor," and remembers them all the way up until the sewers (after the Abzu fight, where Tifa mentions the pipe system, he asks if it's another "lesson.") Cloud and Tifa have an intimate conversation in Cloud's bedroom after he remembers the Promise, wherein Cloud offers to listen to Tifa's worries and troubles. Hell, he says "Goodnight, Tifa," and continues to stare at his door well after she's already left his room.

Yes, they were both curious, however, Cloud lied to Aerith that he didn't recall who he gave the flower to and then later told her when asked that Tifa isn't his girlfriend and it wasn't like that.

Like @Yeji738494 said, Cloud simply doesn't want Aerith prying into his personal life and relationships when he lies to her about the flower. And Cloud denies that Tifa is his girlfriend because it's true, she's not. But you're also forgetting the last part of that conversation, when he says "I don't know how to explain [our relationship]." If they were simply friends, he'd have no issue saying that. But he doesn't, he basically equivocates their bond to the "it's complicated" relationship status. They're not dating, but they're also not just friends.

main theme Hollow almost certainly be about Cloud’s feelings for Aerith

I don't really care to debate about Hollow since I think we've exhausted that aspect, but Hollow is intended to be ambiguous, according to the devs. It's a theme song for Part 1 of the game (who knows if they'll have another theme song for Part 2) and the devs have stated it reflects a Cloud "standing in the rain on a barren wasteland." If you want to see it as being about Aerith alone, then that's your prerogative. For me, it's about a number of things, including but not limited to: Cloud's own identity, Aerith, and Zack. I just don't see the angle of making a theme song just about one person in a romantic sense when it's clear many things are important to the story — not just romance, and not just one person.

Also, given that SE chose to portray the best/most romantic outcomes of optional scenes in the end credits (Cloud and Tifa's train tumble, Jessie kissing Cloud's cheek after the racing minigame, Aerith's red dress reveal scene), it seems very unlikely that they would choose to show a version of the resolution scene that sinks a ship, when they could have shown Cloud and Tifa's hug instead.

This might also just be me, but I put exactly zero stock into what appears in the end credits. Different dress combinations also appear in the end credits, I don't think they're a good meter for "canonicity." None of the resolutions cancel each other out, I think it's safe to say all of them happened in one night.
 
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odekopeko

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Peko
am of the opinion that both Tifa and Aerith have romantic feelings for Cloud and Cloud has romantic feelings for both in return, but that the first episode of the remake favors Clerith.
Can I just say that you and @Maidenofwar are probably the first Cleriths I've met so far (it's only been 2 months for me) that have admitted to some degree of romantic connection between Cloud and Tifa, and I know it doesn't mean anything, but I really appreciate seeing that.

I started off liking both pairings, and I just could not see them as siblings, and having people try to convince me that any of the girls are just like siblings to him felt weird and awkward af.

I have brothers and I would probably throw up in my mouth a bit if I had to do that train roll scene with them, or have them gasp for air if I came looking gorgeous in my dress.

Nothing to add to the discussion. Just wanted to take a moment to appreciate you guys. I had to sit through some weird debates on Twitter, so it feels kinda nice here.
 

Graymouse

Pro Adventurer
@Elyssis Like, everyone before me has said. Welcome to the forums. I am also new to the forums! Seems like since the Remake, there has been a lot of new accounts! This is always a good thing!

Also, given that SE chose to portray the best/most romantic outcomes of optional scenes in the end credits (Cloud and Tifa's train tumble, Jessie kissing Cloud's cheek after the racing minigame, Aerith's red dress reveal scene), it seems very unlikely that they would choose to show a version of the resolution scene that sinks a ship, when they could have shown Cloud and Tifa's hug instead.

This might also just be me, but I put exactly zero stock into what appears in the end credits. Different dress combinations also appear in the end credits, I don't think they're a good meter for "canonicity." None of the resolutions cancel each other out, I think it's safe to say all of them happened in one night.

I have never understood the concept of deciding what is canon just by what scenes are placed in the end credits. Either way, I feel that the end credits are just the epilogue of the the game. I don't think that the Devs would intentionally leave out certain scenes because they prefer a certain pairing. I don't think that is the case. Unless someone can find a Dev interview that states otherwise, I am sure that the Devs just put in some of their favorite scenes from the game.

The whole idea of Scene A is in the credits but scene B isn't, so that means that scene A gets more credit and therefore scene A is canon and scene B isn't concept, I am not so sure that is a valid argument or a way to determine what is and what isn't canon. I genuine would like to know why so much emphasis of what scenes are in the end credits validate or invalidate what is and what isn't canon.
 

Yumelinh

Pro Adventurer
@Elyssis I'm giving you my answer to your post, but since these points have already been previously debated here, feel free to just ignore it ( it's Sunday, I'm in quarantine and I have nothing better to do, so bear w/ me for a while lol)

That's fair. I see it more as Tifa being upset that the flower was from Aerith specifically (given the conversation in the sewer where Tifa questions if Cloud is hiding something/avoiding something about how he knows Aerith, and Ultimania quotes regarding her jealousy over Cloud and Aerith's relationship from the OG and ACC). I also question why the developers would have Tifa bring Aerith up in connection to Cloud at all in her resolution scene? That could be skipped and have Tifa start talking immediately about the meaning of the flowers, triggered by the fact that they are standing in a field of them.

Aerith was brought up because they were literally standing in a field of the same flower Cloud gave Tifa, outside of Aerith's house. Yes, the devs could have avoided it altogether if they wanted, but it just seems right that Tifa was able to make the obvious connection since the flower was something special to her. And yes, she was disappointed that it wasn't something Cloud intentionally bought with her in mind, especially because of the meaning behind it, hence her sad expression afterward.

That said, while I can understand your line of thought here, I think it's a bit of stretch to read Tifa's disappointment there as a nod to C/A. Even more, when said scene was more about grieving and comfort than romance itself.

All in all, Tifa seems to have put a lot of 'weight' into the flower she later learns to mean "Reunion", something she got right after her own usual reunion w/ Cloud, after years apart ( she even goes on about this in her 'Alone at Last Discovery': "us going our separate ways, thinking that must be it...that we'd never meet again - and then here of all place we do) and probably thought "It must have been fate!" only to, later on, learn that the flower wasn't something he got specifically for her, but that he actually got it from someone else. This is more about Tifa and her own doubts and insecurities regarding their relationship than her thinking "oh, there must be something going on with Cloud and Aerith!".

Furthermore, the Sewer scene is simply not enough evidence to back up Tifa's disappointment as jealously of Aerith because, as you saw in your research, that scene was more about Tifa questioning if they could trust her/who Aerith was than her questioning if there's any romantic relationship btw them there (even if we go by the English translation). The girls jealously of each other was (thankfully) almost fully erased in Remake.

Plus, Tifa learning that the flower came from Aerith could be easily the equivalent to Aerith finding out that Cloud gave the flower to Tifa, but differently from Tifa, Aerith's expression wasn't sad but a knowing/peaceful one.

The bit about 'lovers used to give these' is only in the English version. In Japanese, Aerith simply says it means reunion, but yes, Cloud does end up giving the flower to Tifa. I think the romantic implications of that scene are weakened by the conversation in Tifa's resolution scene (since she is disappointed to learn it came from Aerith) and that ultimately, the flower comes back to Cloud and Aerith. Chapter 8 is titled "The Flower of Reunion" in Japanese and you receive a trophy in Chapter 9 called "Reunion" when Aerith joins up again with Cloud. Chapter 14 brings it back to Cloud and Aerith, if not in Tifa's Resolution scene then in the conversation with Leslie where Leslie wondering what his fiancee was trying to tell him with the flower pendant makes him think of Aerith and Tifa brings up that is means reunions and we'll meet again.

The 'Flower/Reunion' motif is so intricately sewn onto each pairing interactions that I don't think one can simply claim it as their own at this point: Cloud gets the flower from Aerith, but then gives it to Tifa, who later on finds out that he got it from Aerith, who before that finds out Cloud gave it to Tifa and so on ( this whole thing is getting more complicated than the LTD itself lol).

Even in the 'Leslie quest' you mentioned, he draws out a connection btw Tifa and his fiancee by saying he decided to help Cloud (and Aerith) in saving Tifa bc he didn't want the same thing to happen again ( when he himself couldn't save his loved one from Corneo).

Honestly, the more I think of it the more I realize the devs made sure we wouldn't be able to draw a conclusion out of this flower/reunion thing as we are now in the Remake lol..why are they always like this??? :rage:


Lol I've definitely seen shippers on both sides trying to completely dismiss romantic feelings for and/or from the other girl, so I felt that I needed to clarify.

Fair! But don't worry! I don't think people here are trying to be dismissive of anyone's feelings. Cloud needs wave btw both girls or else it wouldn't be a love triangle after all, right?! But I guess we're all trying to speculate if these interactions are there just to further the LT agenda or if they will mean something more later on.

Anyway, as I said, feel free to ignore this, as most of these points have already been answered by other people here. You are just one and it must be overwhelming to have so many people responding to you at the same time. Sorry about that! /o\
 
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