SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[Graymouse]

Not to go too far off topic here, but I just want to say, as someone who has just joined these forums not more than 2 weeks ago, I actually find this thread to be extremely inviting for all. That is the reason I have become a regular poster on this thread and on this forums for the most part. The community, even if I disagree with their opinion is great!

Although, I am the type of person who really enjoys having my point of view challenged. Which it has been several times already and I will admit that I have been knocked down a couple of pegs in some of these discussions. Like I said before, I enjoy this. Because having the same view points as everyone else would make for a really boring world. This is just my personality.

However, I know that there are people out there that are not used to having their view points pushed, or challenged, and it could be very off putting if this is the first time where you are being challenged. I got that, but like a few of the staff member have so delicately put it, it comes with the territory of this thread in general. I am not trying to discourage anyone here, I am just saying that having a different view point be prepared to "defend" your view point.

Last but certainly not least, this topic has been and probably will always be a touchy subject.

Edited to fix sentence structure on a couple of items.

 

[Cat on Mars]

It's only a touchy subject because some people want to "win". Win what? I have no idea.

Ships can be debated as long as:

• No disparaging remarks about characters are made. I remember "hysterical" and "toxic" being directed at Tifa and Aerith.
• No disparaging remarks toward posters are made. "I'm right and you're wrong because you're stupid and my biases are good and yours are bad" is an awful way to engage people.
• People remembered more often that being pro-CxT doesn't mean being anti-CxA, and vice versa.

If these conditions aren't met, people will disengage because the very nature of the debate is twarthed. It's not rocket science.

 

[eleamaya]

Funny, I just scroll back what I ever posted in this forum 7 years ago in my profile page and I find I said this in old LTD thread:

I don't think SE would remake Original Game, but if they did it and seeing what they revise in AC and CoT because of CC, I'm sure they would edit and emphasize some OG scenes to make all the compilation fit each other.

 

[Yumelinh]

Eugh... Probably I post via mobile a lot of the time, and it's a constant struggle because I have big boomer energy.

I was more responding because I guess I understand where Enthralled is coming from, though I think their tone is more heated than I care for. Whenever I take a look at this thread, it does look like it's full of shippers squee-ing about stuff. Which I don't think I'd find so off-putting if I was more into shipping like I used to be. Not trying to be a buzzkill (though I probably am ). I guess lately I can kinda see why someone who is partial to the Cloud/Aerith ship might find this thread/forum unwelcoming, though I don't think that's anyone's fault per se.

It's fine! It was easy to notice, but I just wanted to be sure in case I wasn't getting your point across

You're right on that! I can see how this thread may seem unwelcomed sometimes due to having more people leaning towards a certain opinion maybe, and that's why It's very nice we have their opinions here or else this thread would become pointless if it was just full of people with similar mindsets.

However, I think that just as much important as to be prepared to defend your viewpoint as @Graymouse nicely stated, and as much as we have some things we may be very passionate about to let them go easily ( well, at least I do have mine lol), we should also be open-minded enough to understand not everyone will agree with you and learn to let it go once an argument started to hit a wall aka our old and good "Agree to disagree!". Everyone is allowed to have their own beliefs, but it's a completely different thing to keep beating someone with the same arguments over and over again in hopes they will magically agree with you. Sometimes they don't. And that's okay!

 

[MasterMoogle]

Hi, new here. The flower and its meaning is for both girls. It's Aerith's flower and it will always pertain to her more. In this instance, it does not matter.

It also does not matter whether if Tifa hadn't had asked about it she wouldn't have got it or not. That's steering the perspective of the scenario into a certain bias and picking out details that wasn't really intended. You can dig even deeper and ponder on the thought that Tifa didn't see and Cloud realized he was still wearing it. So what would he do with it? Lie down in bed and look at it thinking about the cute flower girl he ran into or make a beeline for Tifa to give to her? We can take this to all kinds of places. Once you start measuring stuff like this, the obvious message becomes invisible.

The developers decided this; on both first interactions with the girls, Aerith gave it to Cloud, Cloud gave it to Tifa. Aerith made it crystal clear what the flowers meaning was when she gave it. The remake started with a flower meaning lovers reunited being passed between from one love interest and to the other. There are two girls that are related to a flower described as love that Cloud owned for a short while. I think the message was pretty clear. Ok, story go.

The flower doesn't mean "lovers reunited." That's just english dubbing, I believe. The flower just means "reunion."

 

[Eerie]

It does, and Tifa mentions it too in her chapter 14 scene.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I never really got into that line of thinking. I feel like it's a really weird take away from the story to look at the layers of Cloud/Aerith's relationship, and say "yeah all this romantic tension is slowly built up but because of later twists we realize he's actually sad about how his really awesome galpal got merked." Somehow, I don't think that's the line of thinking the writers had when they came to conceive these two characters.

Then again, I just read the summary of that FFX-2.5 novella and hoo-boy

I know I am being reductive here, but it's more of an effort to keep the convo lighthearted I know it's more complicated than that, I would describe it in a more nuanced way as well. I do think it's a bit of a disservice to the story to obfuscate the romantic nature of Cloud and Aerith's relationship though.

Just want to co-sign this. As I always try to remind everyone, it's really unnecessary to reduce one ship to build up the other ... and reframing decidedly romantic things about Cloud and Aerith's relation to one another in nice-yet-platonic terms is still a form of doing that.

 

[Ruri]

The flower doesn't mean "lovers reunited." That's just english dubbing, I believe. The flower just means "reunion."

Ah right!, Blast the English dubbing! Still misleading us for time eternal. So, I guess the meaning of reunion still stands. The romantic connotations are just removed from it and everyone involved. Thank you!

 

[Yumelinh]

Just want to co-sign this. As I always try to remind everyone, it's really unnecessary to reduce one ship to build up the other ... and reframing decidedly romantic things about Cloud and Aerith's relation to one another in nice-yet-platonic terms is still a form of doing that.

I'm aware your post was probably more as a general call out to the thread, but since it all started from a post of mine I'd like to let things very clear here to everyone: I wasn't discussing, diminish or denying Cloud and Aerith's relationship or even the nature of their feelings. I was simply saying that Aerith's importance to the story and Cloud's reaction to her death wouldn't have changed a single bit whether his feelings for her were romantic or not. Maybe because I needed to repeat myself so many times here, my point may have been lost along the way, but that's where it all started.

To me, I think these two things are much more related to Aerith as a character and her impact on the team than to anything ship related.

 

[Ruri]

I am fully on board with Cloud being in love with Aerith. It's not exactly hard for me to believe, I just never felt their chemistry. But that's ok. People don't vibe with the chemistry with Tifa either. It's important to know when the line stand between ones own perspective and what is the truth. Clerith I accept because but the developers have reminded us over the years that Clerith is a romance. I think you can argue the depth of the those feelings to the cows come home but not the validity of them. Like spend your energy on something more worthwhile of a discussion in the LTD?

As a passionate CloTi even I have to raise an eyebrow to claims that there was nothing romantic between Cloud and Aerith.

 

[eleamaya]

Y'know why LTD exist? Based on Early Development Chart; Cloud/Zack, Aerith/Tifa, Sephiroth/Vincent are basically the same characters. Love Triangle revolves only around 'em LOL.

Originally, it was Cloud & Tifa, the hero & heroine.
But then, Tifa gets a new role still tied to Cloud as her original role is given to Aerith.
Sephiroth's old design is given a new role still tied to him, named Vincent.
Cloud's role is also split to Zack.

We get any combination between Zack/Aerith/Cloud, Aerith/Cloud/Tifa, and Hojo/Lucrecia/Vincent (Sephiroth is their son). Heck, even after Aerith gets the heroine role but Cloud wasn't split yet... LTD is Cloud/Aerith/Sephiroth.

But well, that's why they're called the heroes, the heroines, and the villain.
How silly, so much energy in the LTD exists over characters who all existed as the same characters in concept. Though, look at the first concept. It started with Cloti. Waver a bit to Clerith. End with Cloti. Zerith is the additional one.

 

[Graymouse]

Y'know why LTD exist? Based on Early Development Chart; Cloud/Zack, Aerith/Tifa, Sephiroth/Vincent are basically the same characters. Love Triangle revolves only around 'em LOL.

Originally, it was Cloud & Tifa, the hero & heroine.
But then, Tifa gets a new role still tied to Cloud as her original role is given to Aerith.
Sephiroth's old design is given a new role still tied to him, named Vincent.
Cloud's role is also split to Zack.

We get any combination between Zack/Aerith/Cloud, Aerith/Cloud/Tifa, and Hojo/Lucrecia/Vincent (Sephiroth is their son). Heck, even after Aerith gets the heroine role but Cloud wasn't split yet... LTD is Cloud/Aerith/Sephiroth.

But well, that's why they're called the heroes, the heroines, and the villain.

It pains me to say this, (haha) that actually Tifa, was the second thought here. She was created to fill the gap after the main heroine died in the OG. That is why in the OG there are strong Cloud X Aerith vibes in the first disc or so. That is why there was a rivalry. In order to flesh out Tifa'a backstory the Devs had to think of something that made Tifa tie into Cloud. What better way then the tried and true Japanese storytelling troupe than "childhood" friends?

What I think the real reason why there is a LTD is because SE is too much of a wimp to say which group is canon. We are way too far down the rabbit hole for them to ever say something definitive now. Besides, I think it should be Barret and Cloud. I kid! I Kid!

 

[eleamaya]

It pains me to say this, (haha) that actually Tifa, was the second thought here. She was created to fill the gap after the main heroine died in the OG. That is why in the OG there are strong Cloud X Aerith vibes in the first disc or so. That is why there was a rivalry. In order to flesh out Tifa'a backstory the Devs had to think of something that made Tifa tie into Cloud. What better way then the tried and true Japanese storytelling troupe than "childhood" friends?

Sorry, I edited my previous post before you reply me. It started with Tifa. Waver a bit to Clerith. End with Cloti. Zerith is the additional one.

 

[Eerie]

Eh, for the OG they have said plenty of times that Cloud and Tifa is an item. Plentyyyyyyyyy of time in various Ultimanias. The fact that people are denying it is, as I reflected some pages back, more a problem of writing itself - they did not write it in the first part and pushed Aerith too hard, so people completely missed that the Lifestream reveals that Cloud is in love with Tifa, has always been, still is, and that they act upon their feelings under the Highwind, because why push Aerith so hard if the ending is like this?

What they don't get is that cloti doesn't really diminish clerith,, it's its own ship, with different tropes to rely on and that's perfectly fine. But people will fight forever on who Cloud loves more when there's no anwser to that. The dev's answer is that Cloud and Tifa settled down together, and they have reinstated this many times already for the OG+compilation. But did he love Aerith? Certainly so!

What they do with the Remake remains to be seen, but they sure are laying down the path HARD for cloti this time around - especially since I think the graphics are way more realists, they cannot rely on players' imagination anymore.

Within the Lifestream with Cloud. While verifying Cloud and her own memories, the two both realize the feelings the other held inside their hearts.

[FF7 The Night Before the Final Battle]
Before the last battle with Sephiroth, Cloud - who regained himself thanks to Tifa - confirm his feelings with her, feelings that cannot be conveyed with words."

I mean at some point, what else can they say?

Edit: @eleamaya, this is what Tres called "proto-Tifa", ergo a mix between Tifa and Aerith.

 

[CrashOuch]

@eleamaya and @Graymouse and @Eerie please keep discussion in this thread relevant to the Remake

 

[Graymouse]

@eleamaya and @Graymouse and @Eerie please keep discussion in this thread relevant to the Remake

But it is so easy to go OT, especially when discussing the all important question of who Cloud really loves thread.

 

[eleamaya]

@eleamaya and @Graymouse and @Eerie please keep discussion in this thread relevant to the Remake

It's relevant yo!
Original Dev: It started with Cloti.
Next Dev (marketing/ads): Clerith
OG: Waver strongly to Clerith (disk 1). End with Cloti. Zerith? Zack exists but.... Never thought haha. It's the real LTD.
Last Dev aka Compilation (CC, AC, FF7R): My wish is Cloti & Zerith are gonna be emphasized. And LTD ended it here.

 

[CrashOuch]

I understand! But the rules for this subforum are very strict and we have a lot of threads for discussing the various iterations of the ltd. This thread is Remake only, but if you have a look at the first post there's a link to the compilation thread, as well as the rules. Please do your best to stick to them so you don't get any warnings!

 

[Lex]

I'm agreeing with Crash here, the past few posts (and a bunch of others) could easily be moved to other threads because they're specifically not discussing content from the remake (which is what this thread is supposed to be for). Just try to keep that in mind before you post please <3

 

[eleamaya]

@Lex Okay, can you move it all, please. It's OG + Remake + Compilation then.

 

[Lex]

The posts (and our responses) will stay here for now to keep others from taking the thread off topic - but feel free to quote them in the other thread if you'd like to continue the discussion you were having

 

[MasterMoogle]

Aerith bringing the REAL Cloud to the surface (ie: slowly giving her high-five’s), peaking when he vows to rescue her from Shinra HQ, fulfilling his romantic agreement to be her Bodyguard.

And of course...

Cloud saying that he wants his OWN SAY on loving Aerith.

I couldn’t pick just one. As my original post clearly suggests ^.^

This sounds to me like you're either misunderstanding Cloud's personality, or misinterpreting what the characters said.

- Cloud choosing to be more receptive by high-fiving more has nothing to do with him becoming his real self. It's just him getting over his social awkwardness. Cloud's real self isn't held back by social awkwardness. Social awkwardness is ironically one of the things he carried from his childhood personality. A symptom of his inability to make friends in Nibelheim.
- There was no "romantic agreement" to be her bodyguard. That was just an excuse for Aerith to spend more time with him. Cloud went after her because he cared about her safety. This isn't necessarily romantic.
- Cloud never said he wanted to love Aerith "his own way." He's just contradicting her presumptuousness.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Actually I was quoting/paraphrasing the sewer scene with Tifa this time around. @Ryushikaze. It's well beyond an OG moment if it makes its way into AC and informs her character now. And you kind of were saying she's just seeing something that isn't there and letting it get to her with your example (after claiming Cloud does have feelings for Aerith which would mean it is there). Whether you wanna class that as hysteria or not is beside the point.

You did not make that clear at all, and what sewer scene are you referring to specifically? Most of a chapter takes place in a sewer with the two women.
In any case, I shall quote Tres and Myself regarding the subject from the other topic which you do not seem to have read.

@Enthralled
@Ryushikaze

So, yes, let's put the "peevish feelings" and "complicated feelings" things to rest here.

Ryu's point remains in either case that one person's insecurities don't dictate another's affections. Neither the presence of them for someone else nor a lack of them for the one feeling insecure.

And the more important point remains to begin with, of course, that having affection for one person doesn't diminish it for another. Proving that the sun is out doesn't indicate that there aren't also other stars in the firmament.

Exactly, so Tifa feeling jealous of Aerith getting along well with Cloud immediately doesn't mean Cloud loves Aerith, EVEN IF that is exactly what Tifa was afraid of (I do not think it is, mind. I really do think it's much more being jealous of the ease with which Aerith can approach people and break down barriers, something she has trouble with)


See also: You don't prove Cloud proves one woman by attempting to prove he doesn't love the other. You wanna prove he loves someone, present a coherent argument, don't focus on tearing down evidence for the other woman. Or the other woman, for that matter.

Only tangentially related, but since Tres mentioned firmament, don't be a flat earther. Bad idea all around.

The point is, Tifa's insecurities, her moment of Jealous are not hysterics, and do not dictate Cloud's emotions any more than Aerith's later jealousy dictate them. Cloud's words, actions, and developer commentary on the thoughts and emotions behind those actions do. But as always, that's for the topics that allow the OG and the compilation. Not this one.

 

[Graymouse]

Was there a time in the Remake where Tifa was jealous of Aerith? I didn't really pick up on that all. Are you guys talking about if you picked Tifa over Aerith to check up on first in the sewers? If that is the case, I didn't really feel that was jealousy. I took it has a genuine question?

"How do you know each other?" That doesn't mean that Tifa was jealous. To fill in the blanks a bit, Tifa is a smart women who probably could figure out on her own that Cloud and Aerith just recently met. Why would Tifa be jealous of that. That really makes Tifa out to be a one dimensional character.

I am trying to find the Japanese dialog for when Tifa asks Cloud "are you sure something else is going on" but I can't find it at the moment. I think it is along the lines of "Are you sure it just about helping each other out" I have to look at the Japanese dialog in order to know for sure.

Even so, I don't see it as Tifa being jealous of Aerith, because Cloud just met her like a day or two ago, and on top of that there is nothing in the Remake that indicates that any of the two girls were jealous of one another.

Sorry Edited to add better sentence structure.

 

[Master Bates]

I believe it's fairly reasonable to say that Tifa felt jealousy in that moment, whether it be because she suspects of a hint of romance between Cloud and Aerith or because she's envious at how easily Aerith got close to Cloud where the latter seems to be comfortable around her. It could be a mix of the both. Of course, it's also reasonable to say Tifa's question to Cloud was propounded due to her genuine curiosity. These feelings can co-exist, you know. They're not mutually exclusive, and Tifa having those feelings simultaneously doesn't make her one-dimensional at all. In fact, I support this reading of the scene because it is consistent with Tifa's insecurities during this part of the story. I say this as someone who stans Tifa: she IS insecure---in her motivations, in her actions with AVALANCHE, in her place in the world, in her memories, and in her relationship with Cloud. It is part of who she is right now and it is her character arc to grow out of those insecurities.

But Tifa feeling insecure does not really confirm anything romantic between Cloud and Aerith, at all (it can only be inferred). It only informs us about Tifa.

View attachment 6044

I know this has been shared numerous times before (between this thread and in former LTD threads) and I didn't say anything, but I just want to point out now that proto-Rude and proto-Reno designs really amuse me considering how different their final versions became. And of course, there is Tseng the Eternal. He has always looked the same even way back the game's development period.