Discussing the whole flower situation. Let's step back into real life, When you buy flowers from the flower shop and lets say a handsome man, or beautiful women works there. Going by what people are discussing, does that means that you are in love or in a relationship with those people in the flower shop? No, you just bought the flower from the florist.
Lets bring that concept back into the Remake. Now an argument could be made that Tifa prompted Cloud to give her the flower, but Tifa kinda did that in the OG as well. So, I don't think that holds too much value. Just this time it was not an option of who to give the flower to. Was Tifa a bit insecure when she ascertained that the flower came from Aerith. Yeah, more than likely. This plays into what we know of her character. So, her reaction makes sense.
So, with that said, I am not so sure if Tifa really cared about where the flower came from in so much as that it was Cloud who gave it to her. The thing is that Tifa was so curious that she had to look up what the flower was. (I guess they have the Shinra-net in Midgar) Regardless, I believe that Tifa felt it was a precious gift from Cloud, when he returned back to her after all these years. This has a special meaning in Tifa's heart. Just like @Yumelinh mentioned earlier, about what Tifa said, "us going our separate ways, thinking that must be it...that we'd never meet again - and then here of all place we do."
After all, Cloud did buy the flower nonetheless. The proof in this is the emphasis that Tifa herself placed on the flower, IE: being that it is "dead" along with their village, the bar, and everyone that was in Sector 7. I feel that placing emphasis only on where the flower came from, kinda diminishes the scene. It is not about the flower, it never was about the flower, it is about Tifa mourning the loss of everything that she has ever known up until that point of the game. It was brilliantly used by the Devs to illustrate the loss that both Tifa and Cloud share together.
After all, Cloud did buy the flower nonetheless. The proof in this is the emphasis that Tifa herself placed on the flower, IE: being that it is "dead" along with their village, the bar, and everyone that was in Sector 7. I feel that placing emphasis only on where the flower came from, kinda diminishes the scene. It is not about the flower, it never was about the flower, it is about Tifa mourning the loss of everything that she has ever known up until that point of the game. It was brilliantly used by the Devs to illustrate the loss that both Tifa and Cloud share together.
This is such a good point! She does use the flower (something she cherished but ultimately lost) as a way to make a connection with what was really hurting her at that moment. This was a woman that after losing everything was able to rebuild a new life only to lose it all over again in a tragic way, and it's such a great thing that Cloud, prob the only person who knows and understand both of her past and present pain, was there to console her (in his own way).
Tbh, Remake did such a great job in highlighting both Tifa and Barret during the whole plate dropping sequence. It was their home and their people that perished there ='(
I feel as if the CxA scene was meant to destroy CxA the VA wouldn't be so positive about it and it would be I don't know noted somewhere the narrative was not to expect more in the future, like if the direction was supposed to be hopeless, etc. Sorry but when the staff, etc do nothing but talk about how romantic CxA are in this game, even again referring to their date in the park I have a hard time not looking forward to the future.
I've actually wanted to talk about Brianna's response because I watched it live and was totally shocked by what she said. When talking about her favourite line "you can't fall in love with me" she mentions how powerful that line is because of how it ties into Cloud's backstory and Aerith's backstory. What surprised me was the use of the word "backstory" because to me it made the implication on the Zack connection (ie. Aerith's backstory of dating Zack, and Cloud's backstory of mimicking Zack) instead of on what happens to Aerith in the future (which is what I know people assume this line is about). On top of that, when someone in the chat mentioned how the line felt if you know what happens to Aerith in the future, her response was "ya that too". (just want to note I'm doing this from memory so I'm sorry if my wording is slightly off but I encourage anyone interested to go watch the video on her twitch stream!).
Now as others have pointed out, the VA's probably don't get as much information about the lines as I'm assuming she had, so maybe this means nothing. Also just to be clear, I do think Cloud cares about Aerith, I'm not trying to say this scene meant nothing, just the implication of that line changed for me after watching Brianna's stream.
Discussing the whole flower situation. Let's step back into real life, When you buy flowers from the flower shop and lets say a handsome man, or beautiful women works there. Going by what people are discussing, does that means that you are in love or in a relationship with those people in the flower shop? No, you just bought the flower from the florist.
Well technically Cloud didn't buy the flower at all, Aerith gave it to him as a gift, so in this case it might actually mean something that the florist gave it to him for free.
@Elyssis I'm sorry for not writing a proper response but everything I was going to say has been said and I didn't want to just endlessly repeat things at you. Glad to have you around though!
Brianna probably has to be somewhat careful about certain things she can say. Not saying she knows everything about future installments, but she's probably been clued into more stuff than a regular fan. Her NDA is still binding after all.
What looney said. I watched that stream too and remember Brianna also saying 'Now I can't join in with your theory-crafting, guys' can't exactly remember what she said immediately afterwards but that I did, so she did care to remind us that she was restricted to a certain degree, for obvious reasons.
Btw an OP who is Japanese received this music sheet for Tifa's theme. It's says next to "playing point" that the theme was created with the image of Cloud and Tifa's reunion, and the promise they made that day in their youth. It's suggested to be played with gentle feelings/emotions. Hope this is from an official source, but I can't confirm. If it is, I really think it is meant to be a duet. View attachment 6606
All this reunion flower theme reminds me of this that was shared by @odekopeko earlier in the cloti FC: it's been created with the image of their reunion, it's a duet, and it plays during the ch14 resolution. Amusing comparison, since we are talking about a flower that means "reunion" too but has been destroyed, yet Tifa's theme plays in the background and it's a moment where Cloud and Tifa do reunite in their hurt feelings, yet are able to comfort each other. I mean, Tifa's theme was created for the OG so they did not have this on their mind, but to use it here is brilliant, IMHO. I don't remember, but I don't think Aerith's theme plays during her resolution, or do I misremember?
All this reunion flower theme reminds me of this that was shared by @odekopeko earlier in the cloti FC: it's been created with the image of their reunion, it's a duet, and it plays during the ch14 resolution. Amusing comparison, since we are talking about a flower that means "reunion" too but has been destroyed, yet Tifa's theme plays in the background and it's a moment where Cloud and Tifa do reunite in their hurt feelings, yet are able to comfort each other. I mean, Tifa's theme was created for the OG so they did not have this on their mind, but to use it here is brilliant, IMHO. I don't remember, but I don't think Aerith's theme plays during her resolution, or do I misremember?
In Aerith's resolution scene her theme plays throughout. Although, during some parts you can't really tell it is her theme, there are some ominous sounds, especially when she talks about "Everyone dies eventually" part that kinda breaks apart her theme song. Which is kinda interesting honestly.
Thanks, I wasn't sure anymore! And too lazy since it's late here to go and search haha (sorry XD). So it's an amusing coincidence, with all that flower of reunion talk, that Tifa's theme plays here (still, it's well done, at least she hasn't lost that reunion) - and yeah I'm sure the devs remember what's behind each theme. I'm really interested to know the other characters' themes and their "image". I guess we'll never know unless someone buys the music sheets though ;_; (in Japan, none the less hahaha...).
Isn't that Barret's theme playing during his scene though? Like I just assumed that the theme playing just had to do with who's scene it was and not anything more than that.
Cool observation about Aerith's theme having something else interspersed with it, does anyone recognize the music?
The Devs use of music in these scenes are intrinsically a part of the scene themselves. For example.
The part where Aerith tells Cloud not to fall in love with her, the Devs used that moment to really turn up the feels in Aeriths theme music. The timing of the most iconic part of her theme song crescendos at that very moment is done perfectly, to draw out the emotion of the viewer.
Same goes for Tifa's resolution. You have a slow build up of her theme song as the scene progresses, and crescendo perfectly at the moment Cloud gives Tifa a crushing hug.
A lot of people forget that music, especially in video games play a vital role in storytelling, just as much as written dialog in some cases, you can also argue the point that sometimes music is even more important than the dialog itself. I would go as far as saying that the music itself is also a character in the game. One thing for sure I have always had an appreciation for music in the Remake! The sound track is just that awesome!
I thought even the Japanese VAs do not get much insight into the direction of the story. I'm always surprised by how little they know until they start recording. How would the English VAs know?
I'm sorry that I missed this earlier - thanks for the welcome!
Btw, I will read over your response and will respond later as well. But because you got me looking at Aerith's Resolution scene again, I was a bit weirded out by it. By the camera angle, that is. Particularly when she says, "Even if you do, it's only in your imagination." Not sure what the English version says. I think it's "not real."
Why in the world did they place the camera angle in front, but Aerith is looking at Cloud who is to the far right of the frame instead? Am I just imagining things? View attachment 6681
I'm saying this because when the camera is in front and Cloud is looking at the character, we are also seeing the same angle he is seeing, like here: View attachment 6682
Just for aesthetic purposes?
I never saw that myself; Aerith seems to be looking directly at Cloud to me. I think this angle just makes it easier to show one of her arms is outstretched (holding Cloud’s cheek).
Assuming I found an accurate translation for MotP, I have to disagree:
"How can I save Cloud? How can I stop Meteor? I didn't think that Holy would be held back. At this rate, the Planet's going to end up the way Sephiroth wants it... What can I do? Tell me, Cloud..."
Aerith cried as she thought about the shattered Cloud that even her prayers wouldn't reach. His wrecked character could no longer be fixed. If he wasn't Cloud in the first place then, who was he? Knowing him only as a former member of Soldier, there was no way she could guess. She embraced the feeling of helplessness that she couldn't put into words.
"Cloud... I miss you. I miss the real you..."
Her whispers and thoughts became expanded into waves and spread out in the Mako.
Her memories of being with Cloud came to mind again. Her impression was that even though he wasn't very social, there was some cheerfulness about him.
"I felt something odd about him but, was everything really just made up and part of his false character? Cloud wasn't real at all? ...No, that can't be true. There were things that only Cloud could think of. Things that he done because he was Cloud. He was never an empty vessel to begin with!"
But she couldn't figure out the truth. Her thoughts just went in circles. Aerith delved into her memories again. Memories that showed Cloud's individuality. The way he walked. She remembered all his actions one by one...
Most of those thoughts merged into the Sea of Mako and awakened a character. The character recognized the image she recalled and "he" woke up.
Aerith starts to doubt Cloud's identity upon Sephiroth’s revelation, and she starts thinking of everything that knows about Cloud. Zack, who knew the real Cloud, recognizes Cloud from Aerith's recollections and ‘woke up’. That in and of itself is proof that even if Aerith didn’t have the full picture, she knew enough of the real Cloud to legitimately love him.
So this later quote, which is what I assume you are referring to:
She was happy. She was happy that she now knew the real Cloud and was able to watch over him, even though it was just for a short while.
I take to mean that Aerith didn’t have the complete picture before and now she does, rather than her realizing she didn't know the real Cloud at all before this moment.
The Ultimania Omega only states that she knew something was off with Cloud not that she knew the real Cloud.
I was referring to a different quote from that book, actually:
“So you won’t have a breakdown..”
Aerith appears in Cloud’s dream, and she seems to console him with such advice. This line can infer that Aerith has seen through to the essence of Cloud.
PG.156 FFVII ULTIMANIA OMEGA
I’ll concede that Remake Aerith doesn’t seem to know everything OG Aerith knew, but she does seem to know quite a bit about Cloud (that they would meet again after their initial meeting – giving him a flower that meant ‘we’ll meet again’ by Tifa’s words in chapter 14-, that he was a mercenary and would be her bodyguard, that he didn’t know the way to Sector 7 and wouldn’t admit if he got lost out of embarrassment, etc. If we go by your argument, that Aerith is already referring to the fact he’s not his true self, that would place her at the same level of knowledge OG Aerith had at the time of her death (which again, was enough for Zack to recognize who Aerith was thinking of).
We should probably just agree to disagree on this point, as at this point, neither of us have enough information to prove definitely what Remake Aerith knows.
Anyways, Real Cloud and Cloud don't really fuse personalities. Post Mideel Cloud doesn't seem to be a chimera between Cloud and Real Cloud. It's all Real Cloud.
So even with Real Cloud inheriting all the memories and feelings of Cloud, he's going to have his own perspective on things. How can he not? He has full knowledge of himself. His identity is back.
He's not going to feel the exact same way about things that Cloud did.
Respectfully, I strongly disagree. I don’t see any proof that Cloud post lifestream felt any differently about his companions, including Aerith, then he did prior to the lifestream sequence.
You speak as though pre-lifestream Cloud was an entirely different person, like someone with multiple personalities or someone living in a fugue state. It’s not as though Cloud ever thought of himself as someone else – he is still Cloud from Nibelheim. True Cloud is awkward and bad at socializing (we see this in his inability to make friends as a child) and covers up his insecurities with anger or aloofness. We see all of this in Cloud in the first part of the remake in his interactions with both Tifa and Aerith. The only difference is false persona Cloud is more confident in his physical abilities and believes he was a successful SOLDIER. He hasn’t been able to accept the failures in his past yet, from failing to help Tifa as a child, to failing to make it as a SOLDIER or failing to save Zack. Accepting those failures and still being able to move forward makes him stronger emotionally, but doesn’t change his feelings for the companions he’s met while under said false persona.
Let's say she felt jealous or insecure with Aerith? Cloud still manages to do stuff like this after that sewer bit and she's not the one grabbing onto him:
I really don't think her insecurities have anything to do with Cloud's feelings or pushes Clerith. Or that it wasn't as strongly presented. I never understood that line of reasoning. He obviously cares for both girls and displays that over and over again.
I’m sorry, but I don’t really see how Cloud saving Tifa in battle negates Tifa being jealous or insecure over Cloud and Aerith’s relationship? My argument was never that Cloud doesn’t have romantic feelings for Tifa (it seems pretty silly to argue his feelings for Tifa are solely platonic even just looking at the remake in a vacuum), but rather that Tifa’s jealousy is evidence that she sees something romantic between Cloud and Aerith and that it’s odd that the developers would add in evidence of a romantic connection between Cloud and Aerith in scenes where the player has chosen to favor Tifa romantically.
I do think there was less romance/date stuff after Aerith and Tifa meet up in general. We got way more AerTi than we did Clerith or Cloti. I'd say +1 for AerTi, and equally balanced for the other pairings.
I shall counter Hollow with Midgar Blues which while being a smaller song is also textually more romantic and has some big implications embedded within it on Cloud and Tifa's relationship.
English translation:
Literal JP version:
In the blue night, I struck out from my hometown
On the ticket, I gripped on one hand
It said Midgar-bound
The good-byes we couldn't say melt into the Lifestream
The stars fall into the unseen sky
I look up to see the starry sky of my hometown
The shooting star I watched with you
Pained by the unshrinking distance that keeps us from connecting
I think it is fair and objective to favor the original Japanese version over the English version where there are discrepancies, and the English version took a lot of liberties in translating. I don’t see a lot of proof of current or future romantic feelings in the original Japanese Midgar Blues. I think this line especially is not very great for Cloud and Tifa’s relationship: “Pained by the unshrinking distance that keeps us from connecting.”
Hollow’s lyrics have romantic elements and I respectfully disagree that the Japanese Midgar Blues is more romantic. “Had I realized, Had I thought it through, Would you be here in my embrace?” and “Shine bright once more, Guide me to you, Smile bright once more, This time I will never let you go.” Given the emphasis on changing fate and all the visions of Aerith’s death that Cloud has received, the implications of Cloud being able to save Aerith are very big.
I also think that in terms of significance, having the main theme song be about Cloud’s feelings for Aerith is pretty big. In comparison, Midgar Blues is a song that is extremely easy to miss, mixed in with NPC chatter and only plays in one restaurant in Wall Market in one (?) chapter.
First, if you want to quote properly, you have to highlight what you want to quote, hit the quote and then "Insert quote" in your message. Repeat ad nauseam. Also, it's good to have another clerith because we have very few of you. I'm sorry it seems us cloti are so numerous :x
Thanks! I’ll admit, it’s a bit intimidating to be so outnumbered, but everyone here seems very nice regardless of ship preference. :-D
Second, Ultimania quote:
The source is Audrey as she has translated all the important and juicy stuff.
Cloud is more like himself around Tifa, but he also is... a 16 years old, emotionally, and in his lack of general experience. That explains a lot of things when you look at Remake with this kind of mindset. He tries to play it cool with Aerith because it's more his Zack side that gets out. BTW read my entire post before replying, because I'll be back to his fake persona in a bit lol.
But when you read Nojima, then yeah, you see true Cloud that emerges with Tifa (which is also why he's got some of his locked memories showing with her). When he looks at his hand in ch4 right after the promise flashback, that's already a prelude to him thinking he must help Tifa. This is also why Cloud is extremely puppy-like around Tifa, because it's his true self that surfaces (very different from his SOLDIER persona).
I disagree. I don’t see any “Zack-side” in Cloud outside of behaving with more bluster/confidence in his physical abilities. Zack was charismatic and outgoing and Cloud is awkward and bad with people (which both Tifa and Aerith point out in chapter 3 and 9 respectively). Cloud behaves equally soft with Aerith and Tifa in the first part of the remake and he caves to both of their wishes pretty easily. I believe Cloud’s true personality is surfacing with both Tifa and Aerith. Spending the day with Aerith triggered Cloud to dream about a real conversation with his mother in Nibelheim and the Ultimania pointed out with regards to the OG dream that it pulled forth true memories.
The flower is a motif that they used throughout Remake to connect Aerith, Cloud and Tifa. It's not limited to Cloud and Aerith, as I've seen people arguing - you can see the flower's motif on Tifa's rug in her room when she is there with Cloud for example. It's a nice addition, but through this flower, Cloud hurts both girls by lying to them - Tifa he doesn't explain, mainly I think because he wants to look cool while giving her the flower, Aerith by lying and saying he doesn't remember.
I’ll agree that Tifa has some connection to the flower, but I don't see it as strong as Cloud and Aerith’s connection. It started with Cloud and Aerith in chapter 2, Cloud and Aerith’s chapter was titled after said flower of Reunion in Japanese, and it came back to Cloud and Aerith in chapter 14 by paralleling Aerith giving the flower to Cloud in 2 to Leslie’s fiancee giving the flower to Leslie and the message the girls were giving to the guys in this scenario. To be fair though, there is a fair bit of my interpretation mixed into fact here. It may just be I see it this way due to my preference for Clerith despite my best attempts to be objective.
Why does he lie to Aerith? IMHO, it's because he doesn't want to talk about Tifa. Not especially to Aerith, but simply because his relationship with Tifa is still blurry to him. She is important, special as Aerith stresses twice (in sector 5, but also when she presses Cloud to run after Tifa in front of the Wall Market, the fact that they erased it in English is spooky, but it exists in both JP and French so...). But Cloud is unable to pinpoint why she is important to him, and he even physically can't or he'd break down on the spot ala Northern Crater style (just like Zack's memories are locked to him, most of his own memories are locked out).
That’s fair, but he does still deny a romantic connection to Tifa without hesitation, even if he does go on to state he can’t really explain what she is to him.
And while I do agree Tifa is special to Cloud, the bit in Sector 5 was mistranslated. In Japanese, Aerith’s dialogue basically matches what she said in the OG when you chose to tell her Tifa is not Cloud’s girlfriend, which basically amounts to “You don’t have to get that upset.” The phrase used is ムキになる.
On your point 2 and 4, Cloud is 16, emotionally speaking. What does a teen do when he's caught red handed? Either he lies, either he shuts up and bathes in his own shame. Cloud's the second kind lol. He also doesn't really know how to express himself, plus he's obviously hurt her when he vowed to protect her. That has to sting.
For the 3rd part, it's simply because she would have loved it if Cloud would bring her flowers ON HIS OWN, if it was his own idea, not because he got flowers somewhere random and gave them to her as an afterthought. I think this hits Cloud right in the feels lol, because he understands perfectly her reaction.
Fair enough, this seems to be a perfectly valid explanation for their reactions without making it a hint towards a romantic connection between Cloud and Aerith.
The source of the flower is mentioned because they are standing in those same flowers' bed, and that's what made Tifa realise where the flower came from.
I still think it was an odd choice narratively to have Tifa bring up Aerith being the source of the flowers in her resolution scene and when she definitely has bigger losses and worries after the destruction of Sector 7 and the loss of Biggs and Jessie.
Yet they still comfort each other and "reunite" in this very same bed of flowers, with a big allusion to the Highwind scene (I only talk about the HA version since it's the canon one). I've even seen people arguing that the water running by, and the long pan out to it was a reference to the Lifestream scene too, which is possible, but not 100% sure about it.
I disagree that the hug is a reunion or an allusion to the Highwind scene (I don’t see any connection between the two scenes). I also disagree that the high affection version of the Highwind scene is canon (why would Tifa ask Cloud if he loves her in Case of Tifa if they’ve already confessed mutual romantic feelings to one another and have consummated their feelings?). I think a reference to lifestream scene is more plausible, but is still a stretch. There are pans to the stream in Barret and Cloud’s scene as well, and pans to the lifestream in the sky and Elmyra’s house during Aerith and Cloud’s scene. I think it was simply meant to be for aesthetic variation.
I agree, he has feelings for Aerith. His bonds are important to him, but the thing is, right now, during the ch14 resolution, you have to take into account that he's known Aerith for a grand TWO days. I don't think it's romantic yet, just like I don't think Cloud understands his feelings for Tifa (they're locked away for again a good part of Remake). So he wavers between the two because the connections are being made, but he's inexperienced, and doesn't understand his own self yet.
I’ll just say that there is evidence that Cloud’s feelings from the OG are bleeding through to Remake Cloud – Cloud sheds a tear after watching Aerith walk away from him at the beginning of chapter 9. This was a clear allusion to Cloud watching Aerith walk away from him in the sleeping forest dream from the OG and an instance in which OG Cloud’s feelings were felt by Remake Cloud. I think it’s quite possible, then, that the same can be said for their feelings in Cloud and Aerith’s resolution scene.
Otherwise, I agree that Cloud is still trying to understand what he feels for Tifa but he seems to have at least realized that his feelings for Aerith are romantic in nature (that he is falling for her, maybe, rather than that he’s already completely in love with her).
On a side note, this is fiction and real life standards aren’t always going to apply. It may just be a scenario where the characters fall in love in short periods of time for the sake of moving the story forward (e.g., Aladdin and Jasmine falling in love at first sight/after 1-2 conversations, or Jack and Rose from Titanic falling in love in 4 days).
The thing is, Aerith knows he's not his true self, as referenced in her resolution scene. And she also has her own love for Zack, whom she is clearly not over yet, even though she's finally trying to move on from, at this point of the story. What Zack being alive in an AU timeline is yet to remain being understood, I guess we'll just have to wait.
I don’t think she was referencing Cloud not being his true self in her resolution scene, as I’ve explained to other posters. The Remake Ultimania only mentioned those lines were about Aerith’s fate and if they were willing to allude to that spoiler, I don’t see why they wouldn’t allude to Cloud’s screwed up memories if that was what she was really talking about.
I don’t place as much narrative importance on Aerith’s love for Zack in terms of arguing the LTD since SE has already said point blank that Aerith loves Cloud more than Zack. Yes, Zack was Aerith’s first love and he’ll always hold a special place in her heart, but Maiden of the Planet pretty definitively showed Aerith is not going to resume a romantic relationship with Zack at this point. I’m not sure what their purpose or plans are for Zack in his alternate timeline, but I’m fairly confident it won’t be ending in Zerith. After all, Nojima confirmed Aerith’s romantic feelings for Cloud in Case of Lifestream White two years after Crisis Core was released. That being said, I’m not completely discounting the possibility of Zerith, even if I don’t think it’s all that likely.
I think that's a little bit a stretch? We don't know what he's thinking at that moment, but the significance of the flower finally hits him. The reunion between Cloud and Aerith has been lackluster, so to me, I think that he just finally understood the symbol of hope the 3 (! with Leslie's fiancée) put on this flower. I don't know if I can venture in more territory, based on what we saw, because we know it's important to him to go save Aerith.
I thought it was pretty obvious Cloud was thinking about Aerith based on the flow of the conversation and the fact that the story description talks about them wishing each other luck on reuniting with their respective lost loved ones:
Aerith is the one that is missing, the one who gave him the flower regarding reunion and was speaking cryptically about flowers to him. It seems to be a very specific call back to Cloud and Tifa’s conversation about the flowers and Aerith in her resolution scene.
Like @Maidenofwar pointed out, there are a ton of references to SE staff talking about C/A interactions in a positive light/using the word romantic so if there's any doubt in anyone's mind that C/A could be read as a romantic dynamic in part one, well, you're wrong. Not that it needs verbal proof.
I'm trying to see people who see C/A as being the predominant pairing and it's easy when you base it on this pairing has a confident leader, who is honestly just interested in the getting to know and spending time with the main male character. C/T are alike in equal footing in contrast, cautiously enthusiastic when agreeing to a date/spending time together, and then they are interrupted mostly by circumstances. Aerith and Cloud just had a genuine good day hauling about the sector 5 slums and that was Aerith's transparent intention.
I wouldn’t say that Clerith is the predominant pairing overall, I simply think that there is more blatant romantic proof for Clerith in this first part of the remake and that this could either signify that Cloud and Aerith may end up together in the end this time around or it could simply just be SE trying to heighten the impact of Aerith’s death before having it end with Cloud and Tifa together in the end.
I'm not sure I agree on Tifa's resolution pushing C/A. It's dismissive of Tifa's pain. The plate just dropped, thousands were killed, her home is gone. Don't make it about romance, the story is more than nitpicking at scenes to allot more points in the direction of another pairing. Cloud and Aerith have a pretty romantic resolution to themselves and it is getting a bit grating to see people use Tifa's trait of being insecure to further a narrative in the other direction. Especially using a scene where she is distraught.
I apologize if I came off as dismissive of Tifa’s pain or the significance of Cloud and Tifa’s resolution scene in general. That wasn’t my intention.
The resolution scenes are the culmination of this game’s affection points, so I don’t think it’s unreasonable to look at what they mean for the LTD even if they have other purposes outside of romance. I’m struggling a bit to see why it’s unfair to mention Tifa’s jealousy (not specifically her insecurity) of Cloud’s relationship with Aerith when it is evidence of Cloud’s romantic interest in/feelings for Aerith. It doesn’t mean that Tifa is necessarily correct in her assessment of their relationship or that Cloud doesn’t have romantic feelings for Tifa. I just found it odd that Aerith would be brought up at all in this particular scene and didn’t see the need for it narratively outside of nodding towards that pairing. If you see it differently, I respect that.
Don't forget that in the OG, Tifa getting the flower is entirely at the mercy of the player. Remake she gets it, no buts about it. There is also a pretty significant camera pan on Aerith and the flower when she rescues Marlene. Even if the flower was destroyed with every thing, I feel the story reminded you that Cloud giving the flower to Tifa is pretty significant.
I took the moment in chapter 12 to be more significant in terms of Aerith seeing her flower wasn’t thrown away and that it found a place where is was clearly cared for (fitting in with the scene in chapter 11 where Cloud and Tifa found Aerith), especially since Marlene calls it “our flower” rather than “Tifa’s flower”. However, your point is very valid as well. It’s pretty fascinating that we can take away different things from these scenes.
Just taking from that change from the OG to the remake, it was a clear move on SE's part to keep things equal between the girls, and the flower is now dead for all three of them.
As for Cloud being killed off, the first thing I thought of was Nojima saying 'Cloud is still young, I could write more for the compilation with this in mind' not exactly his words, someone correct them, but you get the gist. Nojima would be interested in writing more in Cloud's story because he's still early 20's. That plus, Kitase saying:
Just comprehending the entirety of Cloud's story and development in the compilation, plus Nojima entertaining the thought of writing more for Cloud, it makes it a little difficult to allow any inch of belief they will off him for... remake dramatic effect?
I was under the impression that the remake series was going to be the final entry into the compilation and that this was the final thing that they would be doing with FFVII (heaven knows they’ve milked this series a lot already). If I was wrong about that, then I agree, the likelihood of them killing Cloud off becomes close to nil.
Cloud's whole schtick is his inability to verbally express himself, thus he expresses his feelings thru his body language---the CloTi motif ("words aren't the only way to tell you how you feel"). This gimmick also applies to Tifa. Throughout the entire Remake, from the beginning to the end, he is shown to be most physically intimate with Tifa. Very blatantly, I might add, that they're impossible to miss unless one is deliberate in missing them. This is their language. He saves her numerous times, and she returns the favor shortly after the Rufus fight. This goes on even after Cloud becomes properly acquainted with Aerith (and even in scenes when he is with Aerith) and even up to the very final fight with Sephiroth. Many of Cloud and Tifa's physical communication occurs in non-optional scenes. Given that this Cloud is not wholly himself, the fact that he keeps on running to Tifa's aid as if his body is in automatic mode is pretty telling enough of the feelings that the RealCloud has towards her and is currently hidden in his subconscious, bursting at the seams in certain instances and trying to be set free. This also serves as a call back to their promise, which is very very important to Cloud. Their story is told thru their actions, and there is much tension there---sexual and otherwise---that needs to be resolved. I can surmise that this is a deliberate move by SE.
I understand your point of view, however, I don’t see Cloud and Tifa saving each other or having physical contact when saving each other in battle as demonstrations of Cloud or Tifa’s romantic interest in one another. It isn’t any different from Cloud being concerned for Aerith in the train graveyard and holding her as they fell, or Cloud’s physical contact with Jessie while helping her, or Tifa holding Barret’s arm or hands. Did I enjoy seeing Cloud save and hold Aerith as a shipper? Absolutely. Do I put much stock in the scene for purposes of debating? Not really.
On the contrary, his romantic moments with Aerith have declined after Chapter 14. They barely had any romantic tension in the Shinra Tower, at least from my impression.
I can agree that there isn’t really any blatantly romantic moments with Cloud and Aerith after chapter 14, but we still get some small moments, such as:
Cloud continually reminding the rest of the cast to focus on saving Aerith
Cloud pleading with Barret to take Aerith and get out before the fight with Rufus
Aerith grabbing Cloud’s arm before he walks into the portal in chapter 18 and Cloud giving her a soft concerned look
Cloud and Aerith’s shared looks in the cinematic before the Sephiroth fight begins
Cloud and Aerith’s shared looks in the final cinematic
These aren’t nearly as strong as their earlier moments, but I enjoy them nonetheless.
And even during Cloud's scenes with Aerith prior to Shinra infiltration, there were instances when Cloud brings up the subject of Tifa himself---unprompted. He never did this same favor for Aerith when he's with Tifa.
I can only think of one instance in which he brings up Tifa with Aerith unprompted and that was the conversation where Aerith asks him if Tifa is his girlfriend.
After the plate drops when you talk to Rhodea, he asks Cloud if he was able to "get back the thing that was important to him". Cloud answers "yes", to which Rhodea responds with "never lose it again" (or something like that). Considering that his whole meeting with Rhodea was him asking for assistance in trying to get back Tifa (the "something important"), it is fairly reasonable to assume that the conversation was referring to Tifa. It couldn't be Aerith because she was with him the entire Wall Market sequence, and he lost Aerith by this time.
This is a reasonable assumption, I agree, which would balance out with Cloud thinking about Aerith during Leslie’s conversation where he wonders what his fiancé was trying to tell him with the flower pendant. Barret is saying “Don’t give up on her” and Tifa is saying “we’ll meet again.” It’s clear both women are very important to Cloud.
If we're going to put stock on Tifa's insecurities as proof of Clerith, then it should be fair to consider Aerith's reactions towards Cloud's relationship with Tifa. The most telling are her reaction upon seeing the flower at Seventh Heaven, where she showed a peaceful, knowing smile.
I’ll repeat what I said to another user earlier: “I took the moment in chapter 12 to be more significant in terms of Aerith seeing her flower wasn’t thrown away and that it found a place where is was clearly cared for (fitting in with the scene in chapter 11 where Cloud and Tifa found Aerith), especially since Marlene calls it “our flower” rather than “Tifa’s flower”. However, your point is very valid as well. It’s pretty fascinating that we can take away different things from these scenes.”
The other is when she told Tifa to "follow her heart" (which I still find cheesy), after which Tifa ran to---guess who?---Cloud.
Tifa said right before Aerith’s line that “I have to help them.” I really don’t think that this was meant romantically.
Until now I still don't know why SE decided to slow-mo their hand grab scene. Seriously, why? What's the significance? There has to be. I don't know, I think this one's worth mentioning.
I think it was just a cool action scene, honestly. They used slow mo for other actions scenes as well. Two instances I can think of off the top of my head was during the Chapter 4 reactor battle, they use slow mo when Cloud slices the first officer and also when he’s dodging guard dogs.
Still, I'd say these reactions from our girls aren't definite indications of Cloud's feelings to either of them. As already said, Cloud's feelings are his and the only way we'll know what they are is to examine his actions and not glean it from the impressions of those around him, especially in this time when he is not truly himself. And from my assessment, his entire body language screams Tifa.
Well, if we go by what Cloud says, his words in chapter 14 seem pretty solid confirmation of a romantic interest in Aerith, supported by his reaction in two out of three dress reveal scenes in chapter 9 and the fact that he didn’t want to part ways with Aerith at the end of park scene. But yes, there’s definitely romantic interest from Cloud to Tifa as well, though I don’t think that them saving one another in battle are particularly good examples of it.
SE is dropping lots of not-so-subtle clues towards a Cloud-Tifa resolution. I doubt they're gonna drop the ball on them and not provide payoff. On the other hand, SE is providing itself an exit route for Cloud-Aerith in their Chapter 14 resolution scene.
I don’t think that a Cloud and Tifa resolution in the remake necessarily needs to end up with them together romantically, especially if they allow Aerith to live this time around. I think if anything is an exit-route for Cloud and Aerith, Aerith’s death would be it. I don’t believe that the resolution scene is negative for the relationship. I think it’s highly unlikely that SE would choose to show Cloud’s and Aerith’s resolution scene in the end credits over Cloud and Tifa’s if Cloud and Aerith’s scene was meant to sink the ship, especially why they chose the best/most romantic versions for all of the other optional scenes they showed in the end credits (the Cloti train tumble, Jessie kissing Cloud on the cheek and Aerith’s red dress reveal).
Just to be clear. I'm not saying Cloud has no romantic tension with Aerith. He has. It's not just as strong and as sexually charged as his tension with Tifa. So I cannot agree with the notion that Remake Part 1 is pushing Clerith more because after examining it while taking into account both Cloti and Clerith moments, that is not the impression and conclusion that I arrived at.
I just wanted to single this statement out, because this is something I agree with, but it also brings into question something I always felt a little strange about with regard to this discussion:
The applicable use of the word "canon."
Without going into too much detail, the way fandoms use the term is much different from what its intended purpose is in the literary world. FF7 has used the term in a kind of way that I haven't really seen in other active fandoms, at least in a good while. I always understood it as referring to everything that's in the story, rather than the point of the story at its conclusion.
I see Cloti and Clerith as both canon in the sense that both women have canon romantic feelings for Cloud and Cloud has canon romantic feelings for both women in return.
I agree that the train tumble is a romantic cliché in action movies, but I don’t think that all of their interactions or physical contact is sexually coded. Again, it might just be my preference for Clerith though.
Back to Chapter 3+4 interactions though, Tifa and Cloud have quite the flirtatious rapport while they're running around Sector 7 and during the reactor mission, as much as Cloud and Aerith do. Cloud being impressed at Tifa's abilities and vice versa, Tifa teaching Cloud the ropes and him telling her, "I had a patient teacher," and Tifa joking about "not being patient next time/(Jpn) being more strict next time," to which his response is, "Hoo boy/(Jpn) Please do." Cloud calls Tifa "beautiful," he calls her "light" after they jump off the train, compliments her balance, etc. They're just as flirty with each other in those chapters as Aerith is with Cloud in Sector 5.
I agree that chapters 3 and bits of 4 are very Cloti centric, where chapter 8 and a good chunk of chapter 9 are very Clerith centric.
Cloud takes stock in Tifa's "lessons for life on the ground floor," and remembers them all the way up until the sewers (after the Abzu fight, where Tifa mentions the pipe system, he asks if it's another "lesson.") Cloud and Tifa have an intimate conversation in Cloud's bedroom after he remembers the Promise, wherein Cloud offers to listen to Tifa's worries and troubles. Hell, he says "Goodnight, Tifa," and continues to stare at his door well after she's already left his room.
These are certainly positive moments for Cloud and Tifa's relationship in general, but they are not instances where Cloud or Tifa's romantic feelings (which I acknowledge exist) are being openly demonstrated, as these are things that close friends would do as well.
Like @Yeji738494 said, Cloud simply doesn't want Aerith prying into his personal life and relationships when he lies to her about the flower. And Cloud denies that Tifa is his girlfriend because it's true, she's not. But you're also forgetting the last part of that conversation, when he says "I don't know how to explain [our relationship]." If they were simply friends, he'd have no issue saying that. But he doesn't, he basically equivocates their bond to the "it's complicated" relationship status. They're not dating, but they're also not just friends.
Fair enough. I agree that Cloud and Tifa’s relationship is complicated, but I saw Cloud’s later phrasing as a hint towards Tifa’s connection to his muddled memories. What prompted this entire conversation in the first place was a green-tinted static filled flashback to child Tifa walking off with her three friends that never allowed Cloud to play with them. There is a contradiction between Jenova recollections and the truth. The Jenova cells copied Tifa’s memories of child Cloud, but Tifa mistakenly recalled she and Cloud were close as children when in actuality they weren’t.
Since you said Hollow has already been discussed and you didn’t care to debate it further, I’ll just leave it at us agreeing to disagree on the issue. :-)
This might also just be me, but I put exactly zero stock into what appears in the end credits. Different dress combinations also appear in the end credits, I don't think they're a good meter for "canonicity." None of the resolutions cancel each other out, I think it's safe to say all of them happened in one night.
I wasn’t arguing that the scenes that appear in the end credits are the canon outcomes, rather they seem to reflect the best of the possible outcomes available for that particular scene, so showing a scene that sinks Clerith over the Cloti hug doesn’t make a lot of sense to me, nor does it fit with the pattern of scenes they chosen to show for optional moments.
I 100% agree that all three resolution scenes are canon and only optional in the same sense that Zack and Cloud’s escape from the labs was optional in the OG. Regardless of whether it is viewed, it’s still canon.
Can I just say that you and @Maidenofwar are probably the first Cleriths I've met so far (it's only been 2 months for me) that have admitted to some degree of romantic connection between Cloud and Tifa, and I know it doesn't mean anything, but I really appreciate seeing that.
I started off liking both pairings, and I just could not see them as siblings, and having people try to convince me that any of the girls are just like siblings to him felt weird and awkward af.
I have brothers and I would probably throw up in my mouth a bit if I had to do that train roll scene with them, or have them gasp for air if I came looking gorgeous in my dress.
Nothing to add to the discussion. Just wanted to take a moment to appreciate you guys. I had to sit through some weird debates on Twitter, so it feels kinda nice here.
Thank you so much! I understand the frustration, when people get emotionally invested in something they don't often like to cede ground to anything. I personally think it's been plainly stated that Cloud has romantic feelings for both and I also don't believe that Cloti invalidates Clerith or vice versa (my take on OG/compilation is Zerith moved on to Clerith moved on to Cloti). Thank you to everyone in here debating politely with me despite me being on the few Clerith-shippers in the thread!
@Elyssis Like, everyone before me has said. Welcome to the forums. I am also new to the forums! Seems like since the Remake, there has been a lot of new accounts! This is always a good thing!
I have never understood the concept of deciding what is canon just by what scenes are placed in the end credits. Either way, I feel that the end credits are just the epilogue of the the game. I don't think that the Devs would intentionally leave out certain scenes because they prefer a certain pairing. I don't think that is the case. Unless someone can find a Dev interview that states otherwise, I am sure that the Devs just put in some of their favorite scenes from the game.
The whole idea of Scene A is in the credits but scene B isn't, so that means that scene A gets more credit and therefore scene A is canon and scene B isn't concept, I am not so sure that is a valid argument or a way to determine what is and what isn't canon. I genuine would like to know why so much emphasis of what scenes are in the end credits validate or invalidate what is and what isn't canon.
I'll just reiterate what I told a previous user here: "
I wasn’t arguing that the scenes that appear in the end credits are the canon outcomes, rather they seem to reflect the best of the possible outcomes available for that particular scene, so showing a scene that sinks Clerith over the Cloti hug doesn’t make a lot of sense to me, nor does it fit with the pattern of scenes they chosen to show for optional moments.
I 100% agree that all three resolution scenes are canon and only optional in the same sense that Zack and Cloud’s escape from the labs was optional in the OG. Regardless of whether it is viewed, it’s still canon."
@Elyssis I'm giving you my answer to your post, but since these points have already been previously debated here, feel free to just ignore it ( it's Sunday, I'm in quarantine and I have nothing better to do, so bear w/ me for a while lol)
Aerith was brought up because they were literally standing in a field of the same flower Cloud gave Tifa, outside of Aerith's house. Yes, the devs could have avoided it altogether if they wanted, but it just seems right that Tifa was able to make the obvious connection since the flower was something special to her. And yes, she was disappointed that it wasn't something Cloud intentionally bought with her in mind, especially because of the meaning behind it, hence her sad expression afterward.
That said, while I can understand your line of thought here, I think it's a bit of stretch to read Tifa's disappointment there as a nod to C/A. Even more, when said scene was more about grieving and comfort than romance itself.
All in all, Tifa seems to have put a lot of 'weight' into the flower she later learns to mean "Reunion", something she got right after her own usual reunion w/ Cloud, after years apart ( she even goes on about this in her 'Alone at Last Discovery': "us going our separate ways, thinking that must be it...that we'd never meet again - and then here of all place we do) and probably thought "It must have been fate!" only to, later on, learn that the flower wasn't something he got specifically for her, but that he actually got it from someone else. This is more about Tifa and her own doubts and insecurities regarding their relationship than her thinking "oh, there must be something going on with Cloud and Aerith!".
Furthermore, the Sewer scene is simply not enough evidence to back up Tifa's disappointment as jealously of Aerith because, as you saw in your research, that scene was more about Tifa questioning if they could trust her/who Aerith was than her questioning if there's any romantic relationship btw them there (even if we go by the English translation). The girls jealously of each other was (thankfully) almost fully erased in Remake.
Plus, Tifa learning that the flower came from Aerith could be easily the equivalent to Aerith finding out that Cloud gave the flower to Tifa, but differently from Tifa, Aerith's expression wasn't sad but a knowing/peaceful one.
The 'Flower/Reunion' motif is so intricately sewn onto each pairing interactions that I don't think one can simply claim it as their own at this point: Cloud gets the flower from Aerith, but then gives it to Tifa, who later on finds out that he got it from Aerith, who before that finds out Cloud gave it to Tifa and so on ( this whole thing is getting more complicated than the LTD itself lol).
Even in the 'Leslie quest' you mentioned, he draws out a connection btw Tifa and his fiancee by saying he decided to help Cloud (and Aerith) in saving Tifa bc he didn't want the same thing to happen again ( when he himself couldn't save his loved one from Corneo).
Honestly, the more I think of it the more I realize the devs made sure we wouldn't be able to draw a conclusion out of this flower/reunion thing as we are now in the Remake lol..why are they always like this???
Lmao YES the more I debate this the more I find myself getting confused. The developers clearly just wanted to mess with the shippers heads for the next 'X' amount of years until the next episode where they will just give us new issues to dissect and turn on its head. "Less open to interpretation" my butt haha.
Fair! But don't worry! I don't think people here are trying to be dismissive of anyone's feelings. Cloud needs wave btw both girls or else it wouldn't be a love triangle after all, right?! But I guess we're all trying to speculate if these interactions are there just to further the LT agenda or if they will mean something more later on.
Anyway, as I said, feel free to ignore this, as most of these points have already been answered by other people here. You are just one and it must be overwhelming to have so many people responding to you at the same time. Sorry about that! /o\
Discussing the whole flower situation. Let's step back into real life, When you buy flowers from the flower shop and lets say a handsome man, or beautiful women works there. Going by what people are discussing, does that means that you are in love or in a relationship with those people in the flower shop? No, you just bought the flower from the florist.
Lets bring that concept back into the Remake. Now an argument could be made that Tifa prompted Cloud to give her the flower, but Tifa kinda did that in the OG as well. So, I don't think that holds too much value. Just this time it was not an option of who to give the flower to. Was Tifa a bit insecure when she ascertained that the flower came from Aerith. Yeah, more than likely. This plays into what we know of her character. So, her reaction makes sense.
If I had to guess what would bother Tifa about the flower coming from Aerith at the point she made the connection, it's that when she asked Cloud how he knew her, he didn't simply say "She's the florist I bought your flower from."
Obviously Cloud's answer would make sense at that point regardless of who he was into, or if he wasn't into anyone at all, but I have to imagine how that would tie into Tifa's insecurities as she assessed the matter.
If I had to guess what would bother Tifa about the flower coming from Aerith at the point she made the connection, it's that when she asked Cloud how he knew her, he didn't simply say "She's the florist I bought your flower from."
Obviously Cloud's answer would make sense at that point regardless of who he was into, or if he wasn't into anyone at all, but I have to imagine how that would tie into Tifa's insecurities as she assessed the matter.
I agree, wasn't that during the sewer scene when Tifa asked how Cloud knew Aerith? Of course he wouldn't tell Tifa, "oh, her? She is just some flower paddler that I met topside during the first mission? That would be very degrading of Aerith. Besides, we know Cloud is aloof, but for him to say something like that would be even more out of character. It is in my opinion that one wouldn't have to imagine it too hard because I think Tifa's insecurities are the reason why she connected the dots.
Sector 5 was mistranslated. In Japanese, Aerith’s dialogue basically matches what she said in the OG when you chose to tell her Tifa is not Cloud’s girlfriend, which basically amounts to “You don’t have to get that upset.” The phrase used is ムキになる.
Actually, I covered this a bit in another thread but this line reads closer to, "No need to get so defensive," or "you're being so defensive", rather than "You don't have to get upset." https://eikaiwa.dmm.com/uknow/questions/17836/
There's a difference.
Just wanna note that I'm glad they didn't choose to keep Aerith's original line from the OG intact because she came off sounding super jealous there, and it's odd to me because she barely met Cloud a moment ago. The nuance in her tone of voice has completely changed in this scene in the Remake, and I'm glad. I wouldn't have noticed that, so thanks for providing the screenshots.
I guess the LT in the OG is a product of its time. Jealousy and cattiness was their way of showing female interest in the male character. People had me convinced it was only Tifa, but there I can clearly see they did it with Aerith as well. Good move to take that away here, when Aerith and Tifa first meet in Don Corneo's mansion, and when they were locked up at Shinra HQ. As someone going from the Remake to the OG FF7, I was really put off by both women's characterizations in those three scenes in particular.
So with that in mind, the reason why I see they made the curious choice to translate it into "But she's someone special" in English is exactly because his defensive nature when responding implies it, and Aerith knows it.
At least here, I'm glad the translator didn't translate literally, word for word, but understood subtext and nuance of what was being said to drive the point clearer. I do think this scene is meant to be read this way, as I came away from the Jp version feeling the same way.
Edited to add: Cloud saying he doesn't know how to explain it is also telling and furthers this notion that there's something more. Because in front of Tifa, when they were alone in his room, he called her, "an old friend of mine." He obviously could just tell Aerith what he told Tifa, but he chose not to. Why?
All this indicates to me that he views Tifa differently than just a friend, that deep down he is aware of this, but we all know he cannot express what he feels because those feelings, his crush on her, are currently locked away with his true self. Touching on it would trigger him. And I'm 100% sure Aerith picked up on his feelings, because in the scene at the end of CA's cute, little date at Evergreen Park, the moment Cloud spotted Tifa in the chocobo carriage, he immediately dashed off after her, and Aerith had to follow behind. Aerith then calls Tifa his "someone special"/his 大切な人.Cloud doesn't deny this. Instead, he makes it a point to change his mind on listening to Tifa's earlier instructions, and go save her.
Edited to add: People said he wasn't keen on saving Tifa, but these people forgot he actually fought Corneo's lackeys in Chapter 3, so he knows they're weaker than Tifa. He could not have imagined there would be Abzu in the Sewers.
Whether or not this Aerith has some basic knowledge of the OG, based on her words there, I feel it's safe to assume Aerith is now somewhat aware of his feelings for Tifa, as well as their special relationship, even if he can't understand it himself. Just like Tifa is aware of Cloud's developing feelings for Aerith, like you said, even if he does not completely understand it himself.
If Aerith's Resolution was meant to be overtly, blatantly showing us that Cloud already confessing his love to Aerith, I doubt we'd get that lackluster meeting at Shinra HQ. It's way too early in the story. I honestly think, at this point in the story, he seriously just doesn't understand what his feelings are yet.
I also disagree that the high affection version of the Highwind scene is canon (why would Tifa ask Cloud if he loves her in Case of Tifa if they’ve already confessed mutual romantic feelings to one another and have consummated their feelings?).
I know you're talking about the end credits here, but if we want to apply that logic across all scenes in all installments, then the Highwind scene should fall under that. Especially since it's been canonized in several Ultimanias. For what it's worth, most of us here consider Aerith's date at Gold Saucer to be the canon one, so I feel like that courtesy should also be extended to the Highwind scene. If you don't agree, that's fine, but it leads me to think that you're not putting the same stock in Cloud/Tifa scenes as you do with Cloud/Aerith scenes. (Maiden Who Travels the Planet is actually of dubious canonicity, but I won't argue that here since it's not Remake related.)
"Do you love me?" is not an uncommon question for couples going through rough spots in their relationships. I think most of us here who've been in long-term relationships can attest to that. Nothing about that question implicates that Cloud and Tifa's relationship is not romantic in nature. In fact, it actually reinforces that their relationship is romantic because why would she ask that question if their relationship is purely platonic and Tifa knows as such? They're also sleeping in the same bed there — Cloud is not at all surprised to see Tifa next to him when he wakes up in the middle of the night, which implies this is a normal thing.
I’ll agree that Tifa has some connection to the flower, but I don't see it as strong as Cloud and Aerith’s connection. It started with Cloud and Aerith in chapter 2, Cloud and Aerith’s chapter was titled after said flower of Reunion in Japanese, and it came back to Cloud and Aerith in chapter 14 by paralleling Aerith giving the flower to Cloud in 2 to Leslie’s fiancee giving the flower to Leslie and the message the girls were giving to the guys in this scenario. To be fair though, there is a fair bit of my interpretation mixed into fact here. It may just be I see it this way due to my preference for Clerith despite my best attempts to be objective.
Aerith is the one that is missing, the one who gave him the flower regarding reunion and was speaking cryptically about flowers to him. It seems to be a very specific call back to Cloud and Tifa’s conversation about the flowers and Aerith in her resolution scene.
This is a reasonable assumption, I agree, which would balance out with Cloud thinking about Aerith during Leslie’s conversation where he wonders what his fiancé was trying to tell him with the flower pendant. Barret is saying “Don’t give up on her” and Tifa is saying “we’ll meet again.” It’s clear both women are very important to Cloud.
So, I can see the Leslie scene interpreted as a CA moment given your arguments, but in my opinion it's not as cut and dry as you think. One of the most famous scenes of the OG has Cloud and Tifa reuniting with these exact words:
I'm not saying the Leslie scene is solely a CT scene either, but that it's a scene that can be applicable to either, depending on your preference.
For a separate Leslie scene, earlier in the sewers, Tifa asks Leslie why he helped Cloud at Corneo's mansion (referring to Wall Market shenanigans) and he says that he couldn't bear to see "it" happen again — being that he could not bear to see a man lose his girlfriend/loved one to being picked as Corneo's bride, which is obviously what happened to his fiancée. And that's exactly the same situation that Tifa was in when Cloud needed help. Leslie obviously doesn't know Tifa and Cloud are not bf/gf, but he equated that experience to his own.
I think given the ending of the Remake it's something you might have to consider cropping up in future installments, especially with the last scene being the way it is. Parallel timeline or not, they're not bringing Zack into the story arbitrarily, and his and Aerith's relationship is central to both of their characters.
What prompted this entire conversation in the first place was a green-tinted static filled flashback to child Tifa walking off with her three friends that never allowed Cloud to play with them. There is a contradiction between Jenova recollections and the truth. The Jenova cells copied Tifa’s memories of child Cloud, but Tifa mistakenly recalled she and Cloud were close as children when in actuality they weren’t.
We don't really know what the green-tinted flashbacks/flashforwards are caused by. I guess if we're theorizing they could be Jenova recollections, but then all of his headaches about Aerith are also green-tinted and static-filled. In my opinion, for the sake of argument, it's best to think those memories are real unless proven otherwise.
It falls in line with what we know anyway: Cloud was never bullied as a child, he was a loner with a superiority complex who didn't like Tifa's friends because he had a crush on her. He says as much in the Lifestream sequence. The English translation of that scene made it seem like they didn't let him in, but in the OG Japanese he says it was his problem; that he never got the nerve to ask them to play.
I understand your point of view, however, I don’t see Cloud and Tifa saving each other or having physical contact when saving each other in battle as demonstrations of Cloud or Tifa’s romantic interest in one another. It isn’t any different from Cloud being concerned for Aerith in the train graveyard and holding her as they fell, or Cloud’s physical contact with Jessie while helping her, or Tifa holding Barret’s arm or hands. Did I enjoy seeing Cloud save and hold Aerith as a shipper? Absolutely. Do I put much stock in the scene for purposes of debating? Not really.
But yes, there’s definitely romantic interest from Cloud to Tifa as well, though I don’t think that them saving one another in battle are particularly good examples of it.
but they are not instances where Cloud or Tifa's romantic feelings (which I acknowledge exist) are being openly demonstrated, as these are things that close friends would do as well.
I think this is a bit disingenuous. Like a few of us have said, the central theme of Cloud and Tifa's relationship is, "words aren't the only way to tell someone how you feel." If this weren't the case, then I'd put more stock in your argument, but as it is, these physical details are not placed arbitrarily. They're painstakingly written, mo-capped, rendered, and programmed — they are there for a reason.
Cloud touches and protects other characters, yes, but not to the same degree or volume that he and Tifa do with each other. Most of the time Cloud doesn't even have to save Tifa — she's more than capable of saving herself. However, Cloud made Tifa a promise that he'd save her, and every instance of him protecting her in battle is him fulfilling that promise over and over again. These physical moments are there with the intent for us to recognize that he instinctually takes this promise very seriously, and that actions speak louder than words. And she returns the favor several times, most notably at the top of Shinra tower post-Rufus fight, where she blatantly recalls their promise.
I have to say that arguing Cloud and Tifa's scenes as being platonic vs. Cloud and Aerith's scenes as being romantic feels a bit dismissive. I know you're using a method of, "what could be seen as platonic versus obviously romantic" meter, but I could also very easily make the argument that plenty of CA moments that you see as romantic could also be seen as platonic, or at the very least not an indicator of being/falling in love. I try not to do that though, as I think that ignores the intent behind such scenes.
I disagree that the hug is a reunion or an allusion to the Highwind scene (I don’t see any connection between the two scenes). I also disagree that the high affection version of the Highwind scene is canon (why would Tifa ask Cloud if he loves her in Case of Tifa if they’ve already confessed mutual romantic feelings to one another and have consummated their feelings?).
I'll leave it to someone more interested in getting into it why we can ascertain that the high affection version of the Highwind scene is established canon (preferably in this thread or this one), so I'm going to speak only to the "Do you love me?" thing. I'll do so at that first link.
I want to share my thoughs too in this place that I find so interesting.
I know things can be viewed different from everybody, and intérpreted on different ways. Being a FF7 follower since early 2000, is a very interesting narrative story plot, with a extremely complex love triangle lol.
I'm going to talked about the theme 'Midgar Blues' English version, I found out that even if the product needs to be reviewed and approved first, by the official company (Square Enix) , before being printed and reléase, part of the English lyrics also have a parallel with the JP versión of FF Mobius (another game made by Square Enix) , when 'Echo' is asking about Tifa to Cloud, she refers to Tifa as 'your one true love that you left behind' (talking about when Cloud left Nibelheim to Midgar) . I found it interesting taking into account that FF Mobius was being developed in parallel with Remake. Midgar Blues English versión took this same subject from the JP game. FF7_Mobius
I won't address most of your contention in your reply to my post because I can see that you're already answering a lot of people and I don't want to make you feel anymore swarmed. Let's just say I disagree with it.
What I will address though, is the physicality in the Cloti relationship. Physicality is important to them because, as already stated, it is their schtick. It is their language. This is brought to the forefront when Tifa said "words aren't the only way to tell how you feel", and even bolstered by the fact that the two of them are people who have trouble verbally expressing themselves, hence, it is important to acknowledge their physical communication, which is mostly initiated by Cloud I might add. I'm not saying we should take into account every little hand touches, shoulder taps, etc. in isolation, but rather contextualize them as a whole. I'm fairly certain there is deliberate intention there from SE. There is meaning and code there. We'd be remiss of putting attention to the storytelling if we simply dismiss their physicality as nothing.
I want to share my thoughs too in this place that I find so interesting.
I know things can be viewed different from everybody, and intérpreted on different ways. Being a FF7 follower since early 2000, is a very interesting narrative story plot, with a extremely complex love triangle lol.
I'm going to talked about the theme 'Midgar Blues' English version, I found out that even if the product needs to be reviewed and approved first, by the official company (Square Enix) , before being printed and reléase, part of the English lyrics also have a parallel with the JP versión of FF Mobius (another game made by Square Enix) , when 'Echo' is asking about Tifa to Cloud, she refers to Tifa as 'your one true love that you left behind' (talking about when Cloud left Nibelheim to Midgar) . I found it interesting taking into account that FF Mobius was being developed in parallel with Remake. Midgar Blues English versión took this same subject from the JP game. FF7_Mobius
Welcome to the forums! I was pleasantly surprised that the song was added to the remake. I think after the release of the English lyrics it brought it to the forefront of the discussion of who the song was about.
Welcome to the forums! I was pleasantly surprised that the song was added to the remake. I think after the release of the English lyrics it brought it to the forefront of the discussion of who the song was about.
The English lyrics is without doubt from Cloud pov. I just was surprise of the parallel between the English lyrics and the JP reference on Mobius.
I found also interesting that SE is putting some pieces of the compilation inside the Remake, like CC references, CoT (Tifa asking Cloud his help to rebuild the bar again, with a prior glimpse of the camara focusing on Tifa with Cloud standing behind her), also the reference to AC Sepiroth avatar in the final figth.
How much of the compilation will reach Remake? Time will tell.
The English lyrics is without doubt from Cloud pov. I just was surprise of the parallel between the English lyrics and the JP reference on Mobius.
I found also interesting that SE is putting some pieces of the compilation inside the Remake, like CC references, CoT (Tifa asking Cloud his help to rebuild the bar again, with a prior glimpse of the camara focusing on Tifa with Cloud standing behind her), also the reference to AC Sepiroth avatar in the final figth.
How much of the compilation will reach Remake? Time will tell.
I think that the FF7 Remake Project is SE last delve into the FF7 Universe and they want to include all the compilations, movies, and other medium up until this point in the story and add them to the Remake as one final "encyclopedia" of the entire FF7 story arc.
The English lyrics is without doubt from Cloud pov. I just was surprise of the parallel between the English lyrics and the JP reference on Mobius.
I found also interesting that SE is putting some pieces of the compilation inside the Remake, like CC references, CoT (Tifa asking Cloud his help to rebuild the bar again, with a prior glimpse of the camara focusing on Tifa with Cloud standing behind her), also the reference to AC Sepiroth avatar in the final figth.
How much of the compilation will reach Remake? Time will tell.
I understand the frustration, when people get emotionally invested in something they don't often like to cede ground to anything. I personally think it's been plainly stated that Cloud has romantic feelings for both and I also don't believe that Cloti invalidates Clerith or vice versa (my take on OG/compilation is Zerith moved on to Clerith moved on to Cloti). Thank you to everyone in here debating politely with me despite me being on the few Clerith-shippers in the thread!
