SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

Ryeleigh

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Rye
I know the ATLA LTDs are Katara vs Toph for Aang and Aang vs Zuko for Katara, but that's the Supernatural one?
Oh, the Supernatural one is hilarious. In Supernatural you have two big ships: Sam/Dean (the brothers) and for all that the show depicted them as the central "romance", so to speak, it was never going to be romantic or sexual, which most of its shippers understood and were fine with. And then Dean/Cass which was, frankly, made up wholesale by its shippers who then started demanding everyone that it be made canon, lol. The show has been over for a few years and the active Supernatural fandom is tired of still debunking bad Dean/Cass takes. But considering ATLA fandom is still doing that with Zutara (sorry, Zutara shippers in this thread) after almost twenty years, and FF7 is still doing it after almost thirty years, I'd say that SPN fandom just has to get used to it, lol.

As such, it can't be called an LTD in the traditional sense since neither ship was ever going to be canon (although you could say that Sam/Dean is platonically canon). But it's still the funniest example that I know of.
 

eleamaya

Pro Adventurer
You know, Dairanger has a romance that's sort of like what C/A apparently want in a relationship (Shishi ranger and Kujaku the Peacock Bhudda). What it definitely lacks is another woman for the man was interested in from childhood, and even HE moves on when he sees Kujaku in heaven.
Man the ending of Dairanger was a fucking trip.
I dont remember, you must be older than me. Black Ranger like White Ranger but she likes Red Ranger who wanna rescue his brainwashed lover from the enemy. But his lover dies and he marries White Ranger. Poor Black Ranger who is heartbroken and dies too.
 

liuliuliu

Pro Adventurer
I think in the game Tifa’s character is almost exactly the same with how she is in ACC and CoT.
Cloud’s changed a lot though. Honestly I don’t think the Cloud we have right now in Rebirth will ever be that depressed like ACC Cloud.
But Cloud will go through another change in pt3 where his real self is restored. They could emphasized more on his insecurities to make it eventually lead to ACC cloud
 

Sacky

Pro Adventurer
AKA
SackyBoy
Advent Children is strange; i cant imagine the characters in Rebirth acting this way for example Cloud and Tifa communicate a lot better XD and depending on part 3 if Aerith and Zack get to talk to Cloud then i can't see it going the exact way as advent. Though maybe changing fate just means that we wont end up with Geostigma and the events of Advent but will still have the same fates and living conditions for all the characters? Rufus has a much larger role so i can see his fake death being changed completely. My dream is a playable epilogue in city of edge with the motorbike speaking to all the characters as Cloud and then placing the buster sword in the church then credits roll.

When you look at remake and the whispers visions when fighting them they were the burial scene and advent children stuff so maybe that future was destroyed XD
 

shady

Pro Adventurer
To me ACC's take, as much as I think it's not really well written (due to Nomura wanting visuals first in AC, and the characterisations being wonky as the result), proves that no matter what, Cloud and Tifa can resolve their problems.

However I will say it, Rebirth alone has put the characterisations in the OtWaS and ACC a bit off, especially for Cloud and Tifa. Seeing them talking that much, it's hard to connect to Cloud completely disappearing without a word. In short I feel that if it was done after the Re-trilogy, I don't feel like Cloud would be running away, although that has been his characterisation since ACC (=running away from his light Tifa).
Part of me is starting to believe we'll get bits of ACC, and bits of it remade, in P3 in the sense of AC still happens... but we'll get a sort of alternate version of it where instead people are happier. Like you said the characterisations are way off already with Cloud and Tifa's progression as a "couple" in Rebirth is well and above what we get in OG at this point and looks even more developed and touchy feely than it was in ACC
 

Stiggie

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Stiggie
Advent Children is strange; i cant imagine the characters in Rebirth acting this way for example Cloud and Tifa communicate a lot better XD and depending on part 3 if Aerith and Zack get to talk to Cloud then i can't see it going the exact way as advent. Though maybe changing fate just means that we wont end up with Geostigma and the events of Advent but will still have the same fates and living conditions for all the characters? Rufus has a much larger role so i can see his fake death being changed completely. My dream is a playable epilogue in city of edge with the motorbike speaking to all the characters as Cloud and then placing the buster sword in the church then credits roll.

When you look at remake and the whispers visions when fighting them they were the burial scene and advent children stuff so maybe that future was destroyed XD
My dream ending is a shot of Could sitting down on a blanket in a field of flowers with Marlene, Denzel, and a very obviously pregnant Tifa
 

Jane Fane

Rookie Adventurer
Now this is a fascinating discussion. Did Rebirth develop Cloud and Tifa's communication skills and relationship too well and too early, perhaps to the point that their AC characterizations now seem like an unrealistic regression? I'll have to sit on that one.

In general though, I think it's good to remember that mental health isn't a linear journey, as much as we would like it to be, especially in a narrative story. Therefore it's not completely out of pocket that Cloud would relapse to the degree that he did. How "good" and "resolved" he is at any point doesn't mean he's fixed there forever. He's only 23 in AC, after all. I saw someone say on Twitter once that the devs think depressed Cloud is the only Cloud that will sell. :P Maybe they were right.
 

LNK

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Nate
To me ACC's take, as much as I think it's not really well written (due to Nomura wanting visuals first in AC, and the characterisations being wonky as the result), proves that no matter what, Cloud and Tifa can resolve their problems.

However I will say it, Rebirth alone has put the characterisations in the OtWaS and ACC a bit off, especially for Cloud and Tifa. Seeing them talking that much, it's hard to connect to Cloud completely disappearing without a word. In short I feel that if it was done after the Re-trilogy, I don't feel like Cloud would be running away, although that has been his characterisation since ACC (=running away from his light Tifa).
We also should take into account Cloud hasn't totally broken yet.
 

Eerie

Fire and Blood
Now this is a fascinating discussion. Did Rebirth develop Cloud and Tifa's communication skills and relationship too well and too early, perhaps to the point that their AC characterizations now seem like an unrealistic regression? I'll have to sit on that one.

In general though, I think it's good to remember that mental health isn't a linear journey, as much as we would like it to be, especially in a narrative story. Therefore it's not completely out of pocket that Cloud would relapse to the degree that he did. How "good" and "resolved" he is at any point doesn't mean he's fixed there forever. He's only 23 in AC, after all. I saw someone say on Twitter once that the devs think depressed Cloud is the only Cloud that will sell. :P Maybe they were right.
Yep, I was thinking about relapse and al... but still: usually when Tifa reaches out, he makes the effort of answering her (minus when he's being controlled by an alien sat in his veins). I think it could be done, but most probably a bit differently. I guess we'll have to see what p3 gives us, in terms of CT interactions; AC/C was heavily based on their OG characterisations (and quite frankly lacked the gang...), the Re-trilogy is something else altogether.
 

Rin

Pro Adventurer
Now this is a fascinating discussion. Did Rebirth develop Cloud and Tifa's communication skills and relationship too well and too early, perhaps to the point that their AC characterizations now seem like an unrealistic regression? I'll have to sit on that one.

In general though, I think it's good to remember that mental health isn't a linear journey, as much as we would like it to be, especially in a narrative story. Therefore it's not completely out of pocket that Cloud would relapse to the degree that he did. How "good" and "resolved" he is at any point doesn't mean he's fixed there forever. He's only 23 in AC, after all. I saw someone say on Twitter once that the devs think depressed Cloud is the only Cloud that will sell. :P Maybe they were right.
I'm okay with their communication going south tbh. I think what I find less believable is Cloud being able to stay away from her and avoid her calls for 2 weeks. This man would come running to her at the drop of a dime in retrilogy, so that's my only complaint. I mean, we do see a snippet of that when he finds her in the church but I just feel like his "Omg is Tifa okay?" anxiety wouldn't allow him to avoid picking up the phone when she calls.
 

insanehobbit

Pro Adventurer
I think a major issue with CoT/ACC-era Cloti is that we're only really seeing what's happening from Tifa's perspective. We pretty much only get Cloud's POV in a few brief scenes in ACC and through developer interviews. If we had a novella from Cloud's POV set during those two years, I think his behavior would be a lot easier to understand, and their relationship would come off a lot better.

Just imagine if we only saw the events of Rebirth through Tifa's POV. Cloud would seem like an asshole/their relationship would come off so much worse if we didn't immediately see the regret on Cloud's face after their fight in Kalm/how he's acting the morning after. Or in Junon, if the game cut away with Tifa sighing against the door. One might assume her feelings are unrequited if we didn't see Cloud yearning on the other side, and then going to his room to do situps right after (lmao).
 

GamerSkull

Pro Adventurer
I think a major issue with CoT/ACC-era Cloti is that we're only really seeing what's happening from Tifa's perspective. We pretty much only get Cloud's POV in a few brief scenes in ACC and through developer interviews. If we had a novella from Cloud's POV set during those two years, I think his behavior would be a lot easier to understand, and their relationship would come off a lot better.

Just imagine if we only saw the events of Rebirth through Tifa's POV. Cloud would seem like an asshole/their relationship would come off so much worse if we didn't immediately see the regret on Cloud's face after their fight in Kalm/how he's acting the morning after. Or in Junon, if the game cut away with Tifa sighing against the door. One might assume her feelings are unrequited if we didn't see Cloud yearning on the other side, and then going to his room to do situps right after (lmao).
Yeah, I think not seeing Cloud’s POV contributed to the misconception that Cloud was unhappy being with Tifa. When I think what they were going for is the opposite, which is the reason he left.
 

Jane Fane

Rookie Adventurer
... AC/C was heavily based on their OG characterisations (and quite frankly lacked the gang...), the Re-trilogy is something else altogether.

Yeah, it's tough because usually only villains relapse (or never learn in the first place). We're not used to seeing heroes fall back into bad patterns. Once the heroes have learned a lesson or been through a trial, we expect them to be permanently progressed, never again betraying their newfound wisdom. Watching AC for the first time, I do remember thinking, "Man, didn't you [Cloud] work through this already?"

(Oh, and clarifying my earlier post about depressed Cloud being the only Cloud that can sell -- I certainly don't believe that, I want to see healthy Cloud as much as possible. I was just remarking on the snark that the devs seem to believe that.)
 

Eerie

Fire and Blood
(Oh, and clarifying my earlier post about depressed Cloud being the only Cloud that can sell -- I certainly don't believe that, I want to see healthy Cloud as much as possible. I was just remarking on the snark that the devs seem to believe that.)
I think it was definitely true in AC days, Nomura went with this plot because he thought fans remembered Cloud like this. It's my hope that the 3rd game will correct this.
 

liuliuliu

Pro Adventurer
Yeah, it's tough because usually only villains relapse (or never learn in the first place). We're not used to seeing heroes fall back into bad patterns. Once the heroes have learned a lesson or been through a trial, we expect them to be permanently progressed, never again betraying their newfound wisdom. Watching AC for the first time, I do remember thinking, "Man, didn't you [Cloud] work through this already?"

(Oh, and clarifying my earlier post about depressed Cloud being the only Cloud that can sell -- I certainly don't believe that, I want to see healthy Cloud as much as possible. I was just remarking on the snark that the devs seem to believe that.)
It was their believe in early 2000
 
D

Deleted member 26496

Guest
I feel like they focused so much on clotis amazing story and angst that they neglected showing them actually be happy and in love. The Re trilogy definitely adresses this but before the Re trilogy there was only like a handfull of evidence to suggest that they are really happy together. Like Cloud buying her exotic fruit and trying to ease her insecurities.
 

thetriplerhyme

Pro Adventurer
AKA
thetriplerhyme
I have to be honest;
What worries me, scares me and makes my skin crawl is seeing Aerith's death romanticized...

I mean really? How deeply perverted can a human being be and find that whole scene romantic?

It's extremely disturbing just to think that it could be (and fortunately it isn't... at least I pray for it).

Another disturbing thought is the fact that Cloud would be so selfish to go off and die in a dead women's church so that they can be together in the afterlife.

Pretty much saying screw the family who is alive and worried sick about him, and that a dead girl is more important to Cloud is preposterous.

the necromancer love they claim is still the most disgusting ever they have been doing this for years but I guess we wouldnt know context until you literally see it and I'm not sure if Square has made it more literally by creating that 'ending scene' though.. :mon::mon::mon:

To me ACC's take, as much as I think it's not really well written (due to Nomura wanting visuals first in AC, and the characterisations being wonky as the result), proves that no matter what, Cloud and Tifa can resolve their problems.

ACC is much better but for me still wanting more though.. but yeah context of this movie is Cloud's getting over his 'guilt'
 
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Sacky

Pro Adventurer
AKA
SackyBoy
I think a major issue with CoT/ACC-era Cloti is that we're only really seeing what's happening from Tifa's perspective. We pretty much only get Cloud's POV in a few brief scenes in ACC and through developer interviews. If we had a novella from Cloud's POV set during those two years, I think his behavior would be a lot easier to understand, and their relationship would come off a lot better.

Just imagine if we only saw the events of Rebirth through Tifa's POV. Cloud would seem like an asshole/their relationship would come off so much worse if we didn't immediately see the regret on Cloud's face after their fight in Kalm/how he's acting the morning after. Or in Junon, if the game cut away with Tifa sighing against the door. One might assume her feelings are unrequited if we didn't see Cloud yearning on the other side, and then going to his room to do situps right after (lmao).
now you mention it, the real problem with advent era is we didn't get more novels from Clouds POV. We really should have more novels from
the main character like 2000 Gil however all Cloud Povs pretty much just say about him wanting to be a special person to Tifa or feeling like hes not strong enough
 

Ryushikaze

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
AKA
Tim, Ryu
Oh, the Supernatural one is hilarious. In Supernatural you have two big ships: Sam/Dean (the brothers) and for all that the show depicted them as the central "romance", so to speak, it was never going to be romantic or sexual, which most of its shippers understood and were fine with. And then Dean/Cass which was, frankly, made up wholesale by its shippers who then started demanding everyone that it be made canon, lol. The show has been over for a few years and the active Supernatural fandom is tired of still debunking bad Dean/Cass takes. But considering ATLA fandom is still doing that with Zutara (sorry, Zutara shippers in this thread) after almost twenty years, and FF7 is still doing it after almost thirty years, I'd say that SPN fandom just has to get used to it, lol.

As such, it can't be called an LTD in the traditional sense since neither ship was ever going to be canon (although you could say that Sam/Dean is platonically canon). But it's still the funniest example that I know of.
Ah yes, the "superhell" thing people were pissed about in the actually we really mean it this time for reals finale.

I dont remember, you must be older than me. Black Ranger like White Ranger but she likes Red Ranger who wanna rescue his brainwashed lover from the enemy. But his lover dies and he marries White Ranger. Poor Black Ranger who is heartbroken and dies too.
Yep, that's a basic summary of the romance plot in Jetman.

Dairanger- BTW, I find it fascinating that before Power Rangers, 1 and a half Sentai shows were called Ranger (Gorenger, the first one is the half, Turboranger is the proper one), and afterwards there was an almost decade straight of "ranger" teams and we've had a total of two since that don't end in 'ger' and it still ended in 'er.' The ways branding takes over, eh? It's not even Power ranger that started the trend, because Zyuranger was obviously there first, it's just fascinating.

Anyways, spoilers for the batshit ending of Dairanger just so everyone feels better about how nonsense FF plots can be.

Dairanger are taking the fight to the last few villains still alive, and they're fighting Shadam and his two leuitenants, one of whom, Gara the female lieutenant, was previously (5000 years ago, mind you) the best friend of Peacock Buddha Kujaku I mentioned earlier. So final showdown time, right?
Only Kujaku appears from heaven (she had previously died due to pollution. It's about as corny as it sounds) along with the real Gara and revealed the one the rangers had been fighting the entire time was a duplicate made of clay. And so was Shadam's other leuitenant. And so was the leader of the evil gorma tribe, and so was Shadam and all the other still fighting members of the gorma tribe.
That's batshit enough as is, but you also need to remember that two characters in the show- Kiba ranger (white tiger ranger) and his evil twin brother are Shadam's biological children and both were born to the same human woman (Played by the same woman as the commander in Jetman) TEN YEARS AGO. So did a clay doll impregnate this woman or did Shadam just fuck off sometime between ten years ago and the final battle and not tell anyone?
And then there's the 50 year time skip where all the ranger actors get to play themselves in old age makeup and also pretend to be their own eerily identical grandchildren as the battle against the gorma tribe starts up once again.
 

Hix

Pro Adventurer
Advent Children was a product of it's time, but also of it's medium. People try to gleam so much, too much, from a 100 minute movie that had to first and foremost introduce a brand new plot for a long established story - and somehow make it credible - and, secondly, have enough action scenes to make a genuine spectacle.

Nevertheless the movie tells you Cloud, Tifa and their adopted child Denzel live together as a family. Under normal circumstances, this would be about as unambiguous as the movie should have to be to get it's point across, so the film does little else to elaborate on the subject, instead moving ahead with the drama and ups and downs on personal and general levels that come with it. Just because some people believe CA's brief encounter constitutes the entirety of their characters and, as such, the entire franchise must be interpreted in light of Clerith - doesn't mean that more needs to be done to show Cloud and Tifa are together. After all, would this same group have even accepted it?

The movie delves deep into tackling Cloud's depression, a topic sadly romanticized by fans of CA. His struggles with coming to terms with the deaths of Zack/Aerith being compounded by Denzel catching geostigma, and his own helplessness as he succumbs to it also, are not some indication that he's out looking for a way to die to reunite with Aerith. Indeed, Cloud does reunite with Aerith anyway in ACC and it's as platonic as one would expect for any man seeing his best friend and his best friend's girlfriend together - he calls her mother, they joke about adopting him, he's sent on his way. All this is to say that, character relationships generally take a back seat to Cloud's own coming to terms with himself and his past, which is the key element of the film.

How many happy days has he spent with Tifa and the kids? Aye, he asks Tifa to close the bar so they can all spend time together by the end, but generally Advent Children doesn't say because it's not the thrust of the film. The plot, the action sequences, the graphical spectacle, the setting up a plot for the Compilation, these things come first and arguably define the experience. It's not ideal, but it's understandable.

That said, I will give ACC credit where it's due. It ends on a note that is suitably positive and hopeful for all. Aerith is lonely no longer, now shown explicitly being together with Zack seemingly for an eternity - which was all she ever really, truly wanted. Cloud meanwhile, finds his "Promised Land", as the 10th Anniversary Ultimania describes it, seeing out his days together with Tifa and the kids. Indeed, the Ultimania goes on to say;

"When Cloud awakens, he finds himself among his companions and children who've been freed from their deadly disease. His family is there waiting for him: Tifa, Marlene and Denzel, who asks to be cleansed of Geostigma by Cloud's hands. Surrounded by blessings, Cloud realizes this is the place he's meant to live"

It's not perfect, but you know what? This is a pretty damn good ending for the characters, all things considered.
 
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Ryushikaze

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
AKA
Tim, Ryu
- jetman right? Haha he died of robber while they were getting married ( i wanted a better ending for him too)
Gai died of not telling any of his very good friends about his open gut wound and bleeding out on a park bench because he didn't want to ruin Ryu and Kaori's day.
At least they named their kid after him.
 

c.lupara

Pro Adventurer
Small off topic...
I was replaying the final part of rebirth and a doubt arose in my mind:

Aerith ends up the way she does and that's ok but how do you think they will play the "funeral" part?
I mean right now Cloud isn't in him but I think he would remember having placed her in the water. If this part is not managed well, could becoming a sensational wtf. 🤔

Also because they could very well use this plot hole for an (unlikely) return of the LTD.
 

GamerSkull

Pro Adventurer
Small off topic...
I was replaying the final part of rebirth and a doubt arose in my mind:

Aerith ends up the way she does and that's ok but how do you think they will play the "funeral" part?
I mean right now Cloud isn't in him but I think he would remember having placed her in the water. If this part is not managed well, could becoming a sensational wtf. 🤔

Also because they could very well use this plot hole for an (unlikely) return of the LTD.
His memory is probably blocking it out. We also see him mouth the “eyes are burning, mouth is dry” speech but it almost seems like Jenova is blocking it out to make him believe he’s a puppet with no emotions,
 

Sacky

Pro Adventurer
AKA
SackyBoy
Small off topic...
I was replaying the final part of rebirth and a doubt arose in my mind:

Aerith ends up the way she does and that's ok but how do you think they will play the "funeral" part?
I mean right now Cloud isn't in him but I think he would remember having placed her in the water. If this part is not managed well, could becoming a sensational wtf. 🤔

Also because they could very well use this plot hole for an (unlikely) return of the LTD.
if people find burying someone romantic, then that is their major problem Devs cant focus on making scenes that
might upset a ship; they just want to tell a story hence why taking shipping goggles off and just enjoying the story you see things very differently than being worried on what the other side will think of this.
 
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