SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

Ryushikaze

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
AKA
Tim, Ryu
One thing I liked in this game is how Elmyra finally warmed up to Zack some, she even tells him to hurry back for dinner. It would be sad to lose this development if this world is only fakes.
It makes no narrative sense for Terri-verse to be just fakes, especially given that we know of two people who ought to be dead who are there, and there are apparently two Clouds in that universe, since there was one who went through the events of Remake as well as the one Zack dragged in. Marlene also remembers the events of Remake, so we can probably assume that this timeline went pretty much identical to the one we're in right up until the whisper fight or thereabouts.
This is also not the first Final Fantasy to deal with numerous slightly branching timelines (FF12-2 and Crystal Chronicles DS did so as well), and Gilgamesh gives us ample reason to think we're dealing with the existing multiverse.

It takes less effort to assume that we're dealing with genuine articles genuinely in their own worlds of displaced from them than various simulactra of people both living and dead.
 

Stiggie

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Stiggie
The way Cloud and Aerith entered and exited the ride was lovely and fulfilling, and something I personally enjoyed, it was very sweet. Wall Market warriors you and me was cute.
I don't like it, and this is essentially why: Aerith is looking for the real Cloud, but we know what the real Cloud would be like, it's essentially how he ends the date with Tifa, shy and slightly embarrassed. Which means that the way he ends the date with Aerith is essentially him putting on a act, which makes it less endearing to me.
 

thetriplerhyme

Pro Adventurer
AKA
thetriplerhyme
I don't like it, and this is essentially why: Aerith is looking for the real Cloud, but we know what the real Cloud would be like, it's essentially how he ends the date with Tifa, shy and slightly embarrassed. Which means that the way he ends the date with Aerith is essentially him putting on a act, which makes it less endearing to me.

Are you referring to the line " I'm looking for you.. trying hard to see you?" Even back in OG I know this not in reference to Real Cloud. But the symbolism of it yes ( he's not himself). Aerith cannot see that there is "REAL CLOUD" inside she don't know him.

In Aerith's word she meant again herself- she wants to see Cloud as himself and not as shadow of Zack. "the way you walk the way you carried yourself" she wants to focus on person in front of her but can't help but remember Zack eitherway.

of course diehard C/A wont notice

Cloud says " But I'm right here.." he said it with confidence ( again sounds like Zack)
'Yeah but.."

Remembering 'him' no one knows he's gone aside from Aerith ( and Cloud but he deleted that memory ) of course and unknown sadness as come to her hence why he clings to Cloud and says "Just until the rides over" the hand-holding is a genuine gesture from Cloud to Aerith as "he cares"
but of course shippers can't help themselves.

what I read on Aerith is there is always an effort to move forward but she will still always step back.
 
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Stiggie

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Stiggie
Are you referring to the line " I'm looking for you.. trying hard to see you?" Even back in OG I know this not in reference to Real Cloud. But the symbolism of it yes ( he's not himself). Aerith cannot see that there is "REAL CLOUD" inside she don't know him.

In Aerith's word she meant again herself- she wants to see Cloud as himself and not as shadow of Zack. "the way you walk the way you carried yourself" she wants to focus on person in front of her but can't help but remember Zack eitherway.

of course diehard C/A wont notice

Cloud says " But I'm right here.." he said it with confidence ( again sounds like Zack)
'Yeah but.."

what I read on Aerith is there is always an effort to move forward but she will still always step back.
I think it's both, yes she trying to see Cloud for Cloud, but she's also aware that there is something weird about him and he's not acting like himself.
She doesn't know the truth of it, sure, but I do think she understands that he's not truly himself. Hell, she'd probably have heard so from Tifa, who was told so by Cloud in gongaga.
Aerith also reiterates it in the dream date if I remember correctly when she talks about the "the real Cloud, the one I've been trying to find". Even if finding the real Cloud is just a reference to figuring out what he's really like, rather than seeing him for Zack, then it still highlights that that's not what she got. She still got an act, which is tragic, but also not as romantic.
 

Eerie

Fire and Blood
One reason why i don't like the other timeline theories are "Aerith will save him this time.. its not TIFA anymore.."
That's because of Aerith's line that's been mistranslated when she gives him Holy at the church: normally she just says that this materia will save the world.
 
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c.lupara

Pro Adventurer
I hope the devs don't make the mistake of extending the LS scene to Aerith too;
that is, this must remain Cloud and Tifa's MOMENT and absolutely must not be changed in terms of participating characters.
LTD at this moment is 90% dead and rightly so also for the story which would otherwise be fallacious.
 

Yoru

Pro Adventurer
Hi everyone, first time posting here. Loved the conversations so I decided to join the party.
I'd like to know what the consensus is on Aerith in Rebirth. Am I the only one thinking she's written super akwardly ? They're pushing the "Roomates" relation with Tifa to the max and I love that. It's so much better in my opinion than the OG which was kinda cringe from time to time. But her attitude with Cloud is really bothering me in the last two chapters. Basically all the party knows there's something between Tifa and Cloud. Even Yuffie is talking about it (so this means the girls are talking about it offscreen with each other). Aerith has always been pushy and flirty. Always seen it as a game for her (and testing this Zack persona in front of her of course) but it feels very weird to me. It's good all the "shippers" have their moment I guess...
... But when i see all this LTD nonsense and how the new timeline thing should allow her to take Tifa's place in the Cloud comeback... yeah no. For me, that's not understanding FF7.
 

CldS7

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Luffy76
Hi everyone, first time posting here. Loved the conversations so I decided to join the party.
I'd like to know what the consensus is on Aerith in Rebirth. Am I the only one thinking she's written super akwardly ? They're pushing the "Roomates" relation with Tifa to the max and I love that. It's so much better in my opinion than the OG which was kinda cringe from time to time. But her attitude with Cloud is really bothering me in the last two chapters. Basically all the party knows there's something between Tifa and Cloud. Even Yuffie is talking about it (so this means the girls are talking about it offscreen with each other). Aerith has always been pushy and flirty. Always seen it as a game for her (and testing this Zack persona in front of her of course) but it feels very weird to me. It's good all the "shippers" have their moment I guess...
... But when i see all this LTD nonsense and how the new timeline thing should allow her to take Tifa's place in the Cloud comeback... yeah no. For me, that's not understanding FF7.

My issue is that it's like we have 12-13 chapters of constant build up of Tifa and Cloud and their dynamic and relationship. Then suddenly we have 1 last chapter where we get 1 single dialogue line between them which is the complete opposite to Aerith where I think she did absolutely nothing for about 5/6 of the journey in Rebirth only to force the player to do shit with her at the very end

I don't think it works at all well and her character ends up looking really shallow because of it
 

thetriplerhyme

Pro Adventurer
AKA
thetriplerhyme
That's because of Aerith's line that's been mistranslated when she giveshim Holy at the church: normally she just says that this materia will save the world.

I always ask anyone who says otherwise what willl happened if we go to the part on why did Cloud wanted to be a soldier? HE would say to Aerith..

" I was desparate I wanted to be notice."
"Notice by who?
"Tifa.. that's who.."

they're all saying Tifa is not reason ( this is in OG ) lmao
 

CldS7

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Luffy76
I always ask anyone who says otherwise what willl happened if we go to the part on why did Cloud wanted to be a soldier? HE would say to Aerith..

" I was desparate I wanted to be notice."
"Notice by who?
"Tifa.. that's who.."

they're all saying Tifa is not reason ( this is in OG ) lmao

I think they're clearly making that moment be the most important section in the lifestream segment in the next game. Whilst Cloud saving Tifa on the bridge was the most important in the OG, it makes sense that changing it to be that Cloud did all those things for Tifa is the most important thing about the whole sequence. Which is why we just got a new Cloud novel on the subject as well
 

Yoru

Pro Adventurer
My issue is that it's like we have 12-13 chapters of constant build up of Tifa and Cloud and their dynamic and relationship. Then suddenly we have 1 last chapter where we get 1 single dialogue line between them which is the complete opposite to Aerith where I think she did absolutely nothing for about 5/6 of the journey in Rebirth only to force the player to do shit with her at the very end

I don't think it works at all well and her character ends up looking really shallow because of it
Yeah exactly ! It's so strange !

Personally, I thought it would be her game. Like, yeah the poor soul is dying at the end, let her shine. And quite honestly, I was surprised at how much they pushed all this Tifa content. Maybe I did the game wrong and missed something ? But from my POV she was kinda absent when Tifa wasn't here with her. And without even a warning, the last two chapter comes and it's like they're not a part of the same game I'm playing right.
 

CldS7

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Luffy76
Yeah exactly ! It's so strange !

Personally, I thought it would be her game. Like, yeah the poor soul is dying at the end, let her shine. And quite honestly, I was surprised at how much they pushed all this Tifa content. Maybe I did the game wrong and missed something ? But from my POV she was kinda absent when Tifa wasn't here with her. And without even a warning, the last two chapter comes and it's like they're not a part of the same game I'm playing right.

I feel like the last chapter is some metaphorical discourse in the idea of having 0 choice as a player but I cant really explain it well. It's not like we have a say on anything in it as well. Cloud can barely do anything to.

I get what they were going for but it's just not Final Fantasy VII the critically acclaimed RPG from 1997.

Tbh I really think they ended this game at the wrong place and wrong moment just to encourage discourse
 

thetriplerhyme

Pro Adventurer
AKA
thetriplerhyme
. But her attitude with Cloud is really bothering me in the last two chapters. Basically all the party knows there's something between Tifa and Cloud.

A lot of people even those who I know just playing the game is actually a bit complaining how 'pushy' Aerith can be. ( just to be fair some says could be translation issues i heard she's not that annoying in JP ).

Honestly I hate it too finishing the game and that costa del sol sidequest( seriously annoys me to max ) - we did Aerith's i regret it why am i doing this again??

I think on her defense although not all people will agree I think she just genuinely wants to express how she feels. Regretting she wasnt able to do it with Zack and not knowing that 'phone call' and that 'date' is the very last time she will see him. Yeah she should be considerate but in my case Tifa's not reacting jealous and Cloud's ( he didn understand or he didn't care) - if they're not then so am I ( that's how I take it )


I think she did absolutely nothing for about 5/6 of the journey in Rebirth only to force the player to do shit with her at the very end

I don't think it works at all well and her character ends up looking really shallow because of it

Sorry are you referring to the last date??

btw welcome
 

CldS7

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Luffy76
A lot of people even those who I know just playing the game is actually a bit complaining how 'pushy' Aerith can be. ( just to be fair some says could be translation issues i heard she's not that annoying in JP ).

Honestly I hate it too finishing the game and that costa del sol sidequest( seriously annoys me to max ) - we did Aerith's i regret it why am i doing this again??

I think on her defense although not all people will agree I think she just genuinely wants to express how she feels. Regretting she wasnt able to do it with Zack and not knowing that 'phone call' and that 'date' is the very last time she will see him. Yeah she should be considerate but in my case Tifa's not reacting jealous and Cloud's ( he didn understand or he didn't care) - if they're not then so am I ( that's how I take it )




Sorry are you referring to the last date??

btw welcome
Hi:mon:

not even just the last date but I guess that is the main part. Just how little focus Aerith is given for development right up until then

Aerith is constantly forcing the player to do meaningless shit throughout the whole game and most of the time it's not something that will even get you attached to her as a character or develop her further. It just juxtaposes how Cloud and Tifa interact in side quests in a completely different manner.

Honestly I dont really understand what the devs were going for. If they were doing this to make us feel more sorry for her and for her inevitable demise I dont think it worked at all well, when literally nearly all the reviews focused on how one of the best parts of the game was Cloud and Tifas dynamic
 

thetriplerhyme

Pro Adventurer
AKA
thetriplerhyme
Aerith is constantly forcing the player to do meaningless shit throughout the whole game and most of the time it's not something that will even get you attached to her as a character or develop her further. It just juxtaposes how Cloud and Tifa interact in side quests in a completely different manner.

- I think the point on it to the story is to show 'how different the interactions there will be for Cloud and Aerith than Cloud and Tifa". But the side quest and details like this are Hamaguchi's job right? If I'm not mistaken you know he can be -- ummm..

you know what I mean..
 

Maidenofwar

They/Them
No, people just want to think of Aerith that way is all. If you think that negatively of Aerith it's because you want to, simple as.

Aerith doesn't force you to do anything, you're the one that did the side quests.

For all the Cloud is so seriously uncomfortable with Aerith talk, he sure does think fondly of her in the end.
 
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Yoru

Pro Adventurer
A lot of people even those who I know just playing the game is actually a bit complaining how 'pushy' Aerith can be. ( just to be fair some says could be translation issues i heard she's not that annoying in JP ).

Honestly I hate it too finishing the game and that costa del sol sidequest( seriously annoys me to max ) - we did Aerith's i regret it why am i doing this again??

I think on her defense although not all people will agree I think she just genuinely wants to express how she feels. Regretting she wasnt able to do it with Zack and not knowing that 'phone call' and that 'date' is the very last time she will see him. Yeah she should be considerate but in my case Tifa's not reacting jealous and Cloud's ( he didn understand or he didn't care) - if they're not then so am I ( that's how I take it )




Sorry are you referring to the last date??

btw welcome

Well, my first run was in Japanese/French and my second one in English/English. Definitely in the japanese script (that the french translation is using) she's less "out of bounds" and more enigmatic than flirty I guess ? English is pushing so much the romance it's kinda uncomfortable.

Don't get me wrong. She has the right to fall in love with Cloud. I'm not gatekeeping. But Remake and even more Rebirth are pushing so strong CloTi that it feels really strange. This last chapter is schizophrenic. It's out of sync with almost the entire game. Aerith is borderline disrespectful to Tifa and Cloud is strangely super Lovey-Dovey.
 

CldS7

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Luffy76
- I think the point on it to the story is to show 'how different the interactions there will be for Cloud and Aerith than Cloud and Tifa". But the side quest and details like this are Hamaguchi's job right? If I'm not mistaken you know he can be -- ummm..

you know what I mean..

then I feel like they should have done them during the main scenario instead

so you have a few with Aerith and a few with Tifa

what ends up happening is Aerith dragging the player around, Cloud just being nonchalant and its like what are we doing here, it doesnt feel like its servicing anyone or making us believe Aerith is even actually really interested in Cloud. It just makes her look shallow

Just like everything in the chapter 11-12
  • proceeds to get jealous that Cloud and Tifa were childhood friends
  • Tifa tells Aerith Zack is dead after Cloud 'remembers'
  • Aerith proceeds to randomly write a song
  • Aerith proceeds to write and sing romantic song 'for Cloud'
  • Cloud proceeds to stand next to Tifa, hold hands whilst we simultaneously watch Aerith sing a song 'for him'
  • Cloud says he wants to hear Tifa sing next directly after this all happens
  • Then a whole ass final chapter of Aerith implying she has some sort feelings for Cloud but at the end doesnt know if its like or 'like'

I just dont think the game does a good job at even being remotely convincing that Aerith is actually interested in Cloud in a romantic sense and it makes her 'look shallow' in quotation marks because of it whilst we simultaneously see how Tifa Cloud and Zack

this is what happens when her entire character this game is related to 'date' 'date' 'date' 'date' 'date' 'date' 'date' 'date'
 

CldS7

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Luffy76
Well, my first run was in Japanese/French and my second one in English/English. Definitely in the japanese script (that the french translation is using) she's less "out of bounds" and more enigmatic than flirty I guess ? English is pushing so much the romance it's kinda uncomfortable.

Don't get me wrong. She has the right to fall in love with Cloud. I'm not gatekeeping. But Remake and even more Rebirth are pushing so strong CloTi that it feels really strange. This last chapter is schizophrenic. It's out of sync with almost the entire game. Aerith is borderline disrespectful to Tifa and Cloud is strangely super Lovey-Dovey.

my issue is I genuinely dont think the game does justice or even is good at showing why Aerith might be interested in Cloud in a romantic sense at all well. So it makes everything else look worse because of it
 

Maidenofwar

They/Them
Also it does work in reverse, if Aerith is being disrespectful to Tifa, then Tifa would be doing the same (I don't believe either)
 

Hix

Pro Adventurer
My issue is that it's like we have 12-13 chapters of constant build up of Tifa and Cloud and their dynamic and relationship. Then suddenly we have 1 last chapter where we get 1 single dialogue line between them which is the complete opposite to Aerith where I think she did absolutely nothing for about 5/6 of the journey in Rebirth only to force the player to do shit with her at the very end

I don't think it works at all well and her character ends up looking really shallow because of it

It's jarring because it's supposed to be, it feels wrong by design. The devs went out of their way to be less ambiguous - and it really does not get any more overt than a kiss - about who Cloud likes but also about who Aerith really likes as well, and by the end it's hard to argue much in favour of the answer being each other.

But let's take a step back. Quite often I see people on the outside ask a simple question that gets somewhat overlooked by veterans of the franchise - "Why does Aerith like Cloud?" - what's really being asked here is, "why in a hypothetical situation would either of them actually have romantic feelings for each other?"

The reality for most neutral observers is that Cloud and Aerith barely get time to know each other. In the two short weeks of awareness of each other's existence, the priority is Sephiroth, saving the world and shlepping Johnny's sorry ass out of trouble. Further, in the moments they do seem to spend together, Cloud isn't particularly nice to Aerith. In Remake and Rebirth he's both dismissive and even rude to her, yet she keeps trying. But why?

Ah, but you'll say, Cloud acts a bit of a dick to everyone and you're not so far off the truth. He's bigging up his tough guy, SOLDIER fantasy persona and really the only time (and this is straight from the devs) that he ever really is able to connect with his normal self is when he talks to Tifa - as an aside, there's a good foreshadowing here of the Lifestream sequence and Tifa's centrality to it.

But that only even more begs the question, why is Aerith even remotely bothered with him? She doesn't have the past connection that Tifa does, she doesn't know the real Cloud even if she is aware of his facade and he doesn't exactly endear himself to her during their short time together.

The answer is Zack. No, not just at the beginning, but in the middle and at the end too. Aerith cannot get over him, she still loves him, pines for him and waits for him. But yet here there is an all-too-similar guy that so happens to arrive into her life in exactly the same manner with the same eyes and the same sword. She relates to him in the way she would relate to Zack, feeding him the same energy that Zack would have bounced back, only to hit a brick wall in Cloud's inability to reciprocate.

She tries and tries until the Sector 5 Dream Date, the moment of clarity and resolution for her character ahead of said character exiting the stage.

All her attempts to recreate that relationship with Zack are brought to a head here and the answer of her own subconscious, her own dream, is that "it's not right because it's not what I want." - as we said before, it's meant to feel wrong. NPCs commenting how they don't look like a couple, Aerith not getting the things she wanted, Cloud unable to treat the moment as anything more than friends hanging out, Aerith admitting her feelings for Cloud are ultimately not so clear cut.

This doesn't step on the toes of two full games of CT build up, it only comes to rubber stamp it. There exists not even a modicum of the romantic tension that is present when Cloud is with Tifa, when with Aerith instead. He cares about her, no doubt, but he made his choice many, many years before she even knew he existed.

Aerith, for her part, would be shown to be a bad faith actor to both Cloud and Tifa knowing their mutual affection yet pursuing him regardless - but now that we know he was merely a stand-in for Zack it can be rationalised as nothing so insidious, but rather the desperate attempts of an exceedingly lonely girl to recreate a lost love.
 
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Maidenofwar

They/Them
You know none of this is facts at all, and the narrative does in fact make sense if you get Aerith as Rosa. It doesn't feel "wrong" if you do, the rest of the game feels natural.

More so if you don't get Tifa in Chapter 8 also.

For the record you're not being neutral if you try to undermine the nice moments Cloud and Aerith have, like language of flowers quest throwback, Wall Market memories, Cloud holding his hand open to take in Sector 5, or tightening his grasp in Kalm, and others either. Not every physical or skinship moment they have is a Zack insert.
 
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LunarTarotGirl

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Lunarae
That's because of Aerith's line that's been mistranslated when she gives him Holy at the church: normally she just says that this materia will save the world.
Honestly I thought of what she says in OG when she leaves to pray for Holy "So you won't have a breakdown...." Except now they added that she gives him Holy but that's essentially similar to her Sleeping Forest scene with more drama and a dream date added.
 
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