SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[pxl_pushr]

View attachment 16995

You mean that one? From the FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania?

@Ryeleigh
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I have long tried to make people understand this, here even. Tifa is the sole proof to Cloud that he exists. I can't stress how much she is important to him, because it's when he looks at her that he can see a reflection of his true self.

Btw this is why I think the HW scene is shot the way it is, with Tifa facing towards the camera so Cloud can’t see her face. I always took it as her having this knowing look on her face, well aware what Cloud wants to say but still wants him to express it.

 

[abzy1200]

I know I said I wouldn't be an ass when part 3 comes out, but I couldn't help but make this while I feel a bit heated right now, and as of now, I will 100% be posting it when part 3 comes around.

 

[abzy1200]

Btw this is why I think the HW scene is shot the way it is, with Tifa facing towards the camera so Cloud can’t see her face. I always took it as her having this knowing look on her face, well aware what Cloud wants to say but still wants him to express it.

“Words aren’t the only thing that tell people what you’re thinking……”
—Said to Cloud, when he is at a loss for words while they’re alone

If Tifa’s affection regarding Cloud is high, when the two stay behind at the airship, they will confirm their feelings of desire/wanting for one another together. This line is said by Tifa at the conversation’s end. Immediately after saying it, Tifa forms a striking smile that summarizes everything.

yeah, it's already canon that this is kinda what happened.

 

[Sacky]

That thread is really still going on in twitter its now back to the Koi Bito Argument with Aeirth being described as Clouds lover which means
that is also Cloud's feelinds?

 

[Yoru]

That thread is really still going on in twitter its now back to the Koi Bito Argument with Aeirth being described as Clouds lover which means
that is also Cloud's feelinds?

Me for the last 20 years.

 

[Sacky]

This the translation they keep using and this 2005 interview

 

[nars305]

That thread is really still going on in twitter its now back to the Koi Bito Argument with Aeirth being described as Clouds lover which means
that is also Cloud's feelinds?

Well, as far as Rebirth goes, it’s just not true. I mean, how can they be lovers when Aerith herself can’t say she likes Cloud in that way? Even if she was just saying that to feel him out, he deflected.

If they were lovers the dream date would have shown that.

None of that matters though. There is no discussion with certain people, they refuse the narrative.

 

[nars305]

This the translation they keep using and this 2005 interviewView attachment 17002View attachment 17001

So one sentence from 19 years ago is better evidence than way more recent novels and remake.

Makes sense.

 

[Yoru]

This the translation they keep using and this 2005 interviewView attachment 17002View attachment 17001

I have bad news for them.

New material > Old material.

Yeah I know it's sad, but that's how works long running media. You can't use 20 years old itw to argue about FF7.

Old Tifa's profile describe her as waiting her knight. Something they changed. Because it's 2024.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Love bomb people to draw them further in, tell them to sever from friends and family who do not support the cult 100%, anyone who leaves or doubts the cult never believed and is in fact worse than a non believer, etc. etc. etc.
This also applies to online movements like conspiracy theories. If you see any group using this sort of methodology, you have found a cult of some sort and do your best to extricate yourself.

That is the general guide to cult recruitment and retention indeed. Avoid these behaviors at all costs, from both sides. Those flags aren't just red, they're arterial gush crimson.

Good. I'm going to insist you get more of those.

I truly wish it were that easy. At least last night was just sleepless, the recent sleep paralysis has been worse.

For those paying attention, this joke is an excellent parody of an introduction to the motte and bailey strategy, which while not a fallacy in and of itself is disingenuous argumentation.
Much like a motte and bailey fortification, you have your larger, desirable land or the argument the person actually believes but which isn't actually defensible, and then you have the much smaller, more robust structure or argument to fall back on when pressed.

I'd have sat through this lecture in college and taken notes.

Taosist philosophy was about Australia and New Zealand all along.

Now what do we have for Scout? And do we do the joke where Pyro seems exactly the same?

No one is sure if it's a cute name or if she thinks it's actually her son.

It would be rude to ask.

There was a great spider-man / wolverine crossover one shot that was making fun of this. He was convinced people in his life turned evil and he had to be the source of it somehow, and also that a random jobber villain who existed for that one fight sounded a lot like his dentist for some reason.

Yep, that's my boy Pete.

For as much as the recent arc has been piling BS on pete, the sequence where he stops playing around and just casually incaps Captain America and others because he was in a fucking hurry to save MJ was well done.

That was in fact epic. The look on poor Cap's face as he remembers just how out of his league Spider-Man really is during his trip through that brick wall is instant classic.

That will never happen.

Nope. Absolutely not.

I always gave that honor to the golem that did the splat, but Angelus is definitely up there.

Golem is worthy too. Though considering what OG Drakengard is all about, Fairy needs props for being such an awful little shit.

There are so many fallacies and so many examples.

I wonder what an actual moderated debate would look like between a CAltist and yourself.

In a way the nonsense is an indicator of their desperation. They're backed into a corner.

They are near the "chew off a leg" level of desperate.

Like Cloud, they just see and hear static at the parts that would disrupt the worldview.

This could offer a window into some of their wackier behaviors if they showed any understanding of Cloud's character.

Yeah, none of them have any bearing on the narrative of FF7, but even then S-E wants to make sure these two are thought of as a unit, always.

Exactly. Elseworlds type stuff, imaginary stories. We could throw Clerith a bone, let 'em have their ship in this non-canon setting... but Cloud loves Tifa, so nah.

Maiden doesn't help the CA cause at all, really. S-E just never considered it worth mentioning in the first place.

Maiden is a silly hill to die on indeed, since the only benefit a CAltist could get is making Zerith look bad.

Tifa is referred to as both important woman and as a koibito, so what's the hangup? Other than Aerith... not?

I believe you've put your finger on it.

We only see the kid's bedroom. Cloud's office has a cot but is always referred to as just his office. Logically there has to be one more.

Yes but that logic leads to Cloud and Tifa sharing a bed. And that way lies nightmares and spooky carnival death, so said logic must be denied.

 

[Yoru]

This the translation they keep using and this 2005 interviewView attachment 17002View attachment 17001

And again... I don't see where it's saying "Cloud and Tifa is not a thing"

I think everyone and their mother understood Aerith is kinda falling in love with Cloud. No shit Sherlock.

But beware, big plot twist incoming : She's dead.

And Cloud never confessed anything. Not before, not now.

She can call him daddy it won't change anything in the difficult equation that is : dead people can't date alive people.

 

[pxl_pushr]

And again... I don't see where it's saying "Cloud and Tifa is not a thing"

I think everyone and their mother understood Aerith is kinda falling in love with Cloud. No shit Sherlock.

But beware, big plot twist incoming : She's dead.

And Cloud never confessed anything. Not before, not now.

She can call him daddy it won't change anything in the difficult equation that is : dead people can't date alive people.

It’s also kinda odd.

I can see her viewing Cloud as a symbol of all her precious friends. He’s kinda the first one she made, so I can see that being special… but calling him beloved when he’s in a committed relationship in the living world? Just doesn’t read well.

 

[Yoru]

It’s also kinda odd.

I can see her viewing Cloud as a symbol of all her precious friends. He’s kinda the first one she made, so I can see that being special… but calling him beloved when he’s in a committed relationship in the living world? Just doesn’t read well.

Because it's PR talk + first AC is a shame and they had to retcon it with ACC...

Nomura is not Nojima. He pushed with this weird emo Cloud and this Aerith centric movie. I don't know, maybe he likes this tragic kind of tale. But now we have to deal with this "shit" because they made this movie like a one shot. And of course these people won't mind the more updated version...

 

[Ryushikaze]

That thread is really still going on in twitter its now back to the Koi Bito Argument with Aeirth being described as Clouds lover which means
that is also Cloud's feelinds?

Again, she's never been described as his lover. He has been described as her beloved.

This the translation they keep using and this 2005 interviewView attachment 17002View attachment 17001

And like a lot of the other interviews he gave at the time, the thrust was "I don't want to just give you the answers, because that's no fun. I want you to put the pieces together and figure it out."
Nojima, thankfully, was a bit more "Nomura--san, that is not how writing works"

That is the general guide to cult recruitment and retention indeed. Avoid these behaviors at all costs, from both sides. Those flags aren't just red, they're arterial gush crimson.

Avoid them from friends, family, religions, governments, even people who proclaim to be marginalized identities. There's solidarity and there's exploitation.

I truly wish it were that easy. At least last night was just sleepless, the recent sleep paralysis has been worse.

Sympathies, my man.

I'd have sat through this lecture in college and taken notes.

You flatter me.

Now what do we have for Scout? And do we do the joke where Pyro seems exactly the same?

From Rhode Island, perhaps?
And Manners "Pyro" is the main character of Power Wash Simulator.
I hope we get a Rebirth DLC for that like we did for Remake.

It would be rude to ask.

And we believe in being polite here at Manner Co. It's why we say please before shooting you and apologize for your death once the killing's done.

Yep, that's my boy Pete.

There was a time when Nate Grey was asking Pete for advice on "how to normal human" and the joke was that compared to Nate, even Pete's life seemed mundane.

That was in fact epic. The look on poor Cap's face as he remembers just how out of his league Spider-Man really is during his trip through that brick wall is instant classic.

Pete actively nerfs himself to avoid casualties. Like, when you play his video games, he's doing lots of light baby taps to try and safely KO people who are shooting him.

Nope. Absolutely not.

Far too many editorial mishaps they need covered up.

Golem is worthy too. Though considering what OG Drakengard is all about, Fairy needs props for being such an awful little shit.

Fairy is the biggest shit in the tiniest form.

I wonder what an actual moderated debate would look like between a CAltist and yourself.

Extremely long and drawn out. There's calling out the fallacies, correcting fake and wrong sources. Very little actual pro-CA argument, I suspect.

They are near the "chew off a leg" level of desperate.

I saw people turning to Anastar's old site on the CA subreddit. That's going to be a shitshow in the coming weeks.

This could offer a window into some of their wackier behaviors if they showed any understanding of Cloud's character.

Invites too many chances to arrive at the actual conclusion.

[qutoe]Exactly. Elseworlds type stuff, imaginary stories. We could throw Clerith a bone, let 'em have their ship in this non-canon setting... but Cloud loves Tifa, so nah.[/quote]
In Itadaki/ Fortune Street, all three show up. C/T have cute banter with each other. Aerith flirts with Angelo from Dragon Quest 8.

Maiden is a silly hill to die on indeed, since the only benefit a CAltist could get is making Zerith look bad.

That seems to be part of the strategy nowadays, so...

I believe you've put your finger on it.

It's why those quotes need to be mangled and ignored.

Yes but that logic leads to Cloud and Tifa sharing a bed. And that way lies nightmares and spooky carnival death, so said logic must be denied.

It's fascinating seeing some of them come very close to a realization and then deliberately avoid it.

 

[Yoru]

You know, I think it was really a period where they didn't care about FF7. They just wanted to make money with it.

Why did they push for the CA narrative for AC marketing ? I don't know. Maybe the ones deciding wanted their weird Romeo x Juliet piece.

I'm pretty sure Nojima himself didn't care that much. I don't remember but I think he was already working outside of SE at the time. So yeah... they went with this and now that we're being serious again with the FF7 brand... there's a lot of damage control to do...

 

[Hellenic]

The story is going to where it seems to have always been.

I’ll just go ahead and officially call myself a Cloti now.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Again, she's never been described as his lover. He has been described as her beloved.

Except by CAltists and those they've misinformed, of course. They've described her as Cloud's lover at great length. Incessantly. Even when corrected and asked to stop.

And like a lot of the other interviews he gave at the time, the thrust was "I don't want to just give you the answers, because that's no fun. I want you to put the pieces together and figure it out."

NOMURRRRAAAAA!!!!!

Nojima, thankfully, was a bit more "Nomura--san, that is not how writing works"

Truly Nojima is the hero we need.

Avoid them from friends, family, religions, governments, even people who proclaim to be marginalized identities. There's solidarity and there's exploitation.

And in case you missed what I meant by "from both sides" avoid doing these things yourself. You'd be surprised how eerily easy it can be to slip into cultish behaviors by sheer accident.

Sympathies, my man.

Appreciated. It comes and goes, we're just waiting for go. I can at least say it's not like my early twenties where there was no go for months at a time.

You flatter me.

I only speak truth. If the truth feels flattering, bonus.

From Rhode Island, perhaps?

Hmmm... Might work. I can't recall any real Rhode Island stereotypes to work with though.

And Manners "Pyro" is the main character of Power Wash Simulator.
I hope we get a Rebirth DLC for that like we did for Remake.

Fingers crossed.

And we believe in being polite here at Manner Co. It's why we say please before shooting you and apologize for your death once the killing's done.

Does Helen secretly run Manner Co. too? If so I imagine the politeness is slowly killing her.

There was a time when Nate Grey was asking Pete for advice on "how to normal human" and the joke was that compared to Nate, even Pete's life seemed mundane.

I mean, he's right though. And Peter is a well of good advice for balancing normal human with super antics, he just rarely takes his own advice.

Pete actively nerfs himself to avoid casualties. Like, when you play his video games, he's doing lots of light baby taps to try and safely KO people who are shooting him.

A punch from Spidey giving it his all would more or less liquefy a normal human. Especially thanks to his sticking powers letting him brace for the equal but opposite reaction better than any other strong boy Marvel throws at you.

One of my favorite things about Pete is how much he benefits from people forgetting just how strong, fast, skilled and intelligent he is... and yet is still annoyed they forgot

Far too many editorial mishaps they need covered up.

She-Hulk sleeping with Juggernaut really is the least of it.

Fairy is the biggest shit in the tiniest form.

Fairy is damn lucky she hitched her wagon to Caim's merry band. We all saw how Zero handles fairies.

Extremely long and drawn out. There's calling out the fallacies, correcting fake and wrong sources. Very little actual pro-CA argument, I suspect.

Hence the need for real moderation. Someone to just pop-in and say "So you elect to not answer the question?" when they go off.

I saw people turning to Anastar's old site on the CA subreddit. That's going to be a shitshow in the coming weeks.

Oh Anastar, your garbage takes continue to haunt us after all this time.

Invites too many chances to arrive at the actual conclusion.

Too true.

In Itadaki/ Fortune Street, all three show up. C/T have cute banter with each other. Aerith flirts with Angelo from Dragon Quest 8.

Yep. She'd be a third wheel hanging with the peeps from her own game. Might as well get out there and meet new people.

That seems to be part of the strategy nowadays, so...

I seem to recall most of the modern anti-Zerith shit from the long long ago, but they definitely got louder and angrier post Rebirth. As if CC didn't cause enough ruckus in their poor little brains.

It's why those quotes need to be mangled and ignored.

Put 'em through the shredder and burn 'em?

It's fascinating seeing some of them come very close to a realization and then deliberately avoid it.

The active choice not to follow the evidence to the end is baffling.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Except by CAltists and those they've misinformed, of course. They've described her as Cloud's lover at great length. Incessantly. Even when corrected and asked to stop.

It's actually fascinating how many words turn out to mean lover but only when in reference to Aerith.

Truly Nojima is the hero we need.

I think he's just as suck of fandom bullshit as a lot of us are, really.

And in case you missed what I meant by "from both sides" avoid doing these things yourself. You'd be surprised how eerily easy it can be to slip into cultish behaviors by sheer accident.

Yes. Avoid cultish thinking and falling into mental traps.

Appreciated. It comes and goes, we're just waiting for go. I can at least say it's not like my early twenties where there was no go for months at a time.

I can't say as I ever had anything quite so bad as that, but in my youth I suffered migraines that often required total darkness to alleviate, and would leave me with my sense of touch so jacked up that just sitting around doing nothing was interminable because everything felt like it was being scoured with a wire brush.

I only speak truth. If the truth feels flattering, bonus.

I suppose I shall take it.

Hmmm... Might work. I can't recall any real Rhode Island stereotypes to work with though.

"Excessively bland and inoffensive" was the thought there.

Fingers crossed.

The Buggy, Tiny Bronco, Part of Gold Saucer, part of the cruise liner, what else would make for a good level? Chocobo race track?

Does Helen secretly run Manner Co. too? If so I imagine the politeness is slowly killing her.

That's an excellent question. I can't decide if it's funnier if she does or doesn't.

I mean, he's right though. And Peter is a well of good advice for balancing normal human with super antics, he just rarely takes his own advice.

True, true.

A punch from Spidey giving it his all would more or less liquefy a normal human. Especially thanks to his sticking powers letting him brace for the equal but opposite reaction better than any other strong boy Marvel throws at you.

One of my favorite things about Pete is how much he benefits from people forgetting just how strong, fast, skilled and intelligent he is... and yet is still annoyed they forgot

It's the angry nerd from the early issues peeking back out, really.

She-Hulk sleeping with Juggernaut really is the least of it.

Honestly, She-Hulk fucking Juggsy is fairly minor in the grand scheme of things, even for fuckups involving either Jennifer or Cain. Probably the biggest one involving them both, but I could always be convinced otherwise.

Fairy is damn lucky she hitched her wagon to Caim's merry band. We all saw how Zero handles fairies.

Zero's the reason we basically only see Fairy in Drakengard.

Hence the need for real moderation. Someone to just pop-in and say "So you elect to not answer the question?" when they go off.

Now you have me remembering typing with ever increasing frustration "Shall I take your continued avoidance of this topic as a concession that you cannot address it?" and similar words.

Oh Anastar, your garbage takes continue to haunt us after all this time.

And her willingness to believe literally anything that sounded pro-Clerith, even if it was a complete and utter pile of bullshit. She believed the wacdonald's interview and "Koibito means one who loves when you write it in Kanji" which we've come to know as the undying Koi Bito argument.

Too true.

It's sort of interesting, I've seen it on several occasions, and please believe that this is not an exaggeration, I have seen a Clerith ask for backup because Cloti arguments were making too much sense and they were worried they were being brainwashed.
And for that matter I have literally been accused of brainwashing people by a Clerith.

Yep. She'd be a third wheel hanging with the peeps from her own game. Might as well get out there and meet new people.

It'll do her good. She can chat with Veronica about being dead. Difference there is that Veronica's death was undone through time Travel. Aerith wasn't designed by Akira Toriyama though, so she's SOL there.

I seem to recall most of the modern anti-Zerith shit from the long long ago, but they definitely got louder and angrier post Rebirth. As if CC didn't cause enough ruckus in their poor little brains.

CC Reunion and Rebirth back to back made them really scared about Zack. Almost like the writing was on the wall regarding his being Aerith's actual love interest.

Put 'em through the shredder and burn 'em?

They absolutely are trying. Those quotes are devastating to the CA narrative. I mean, plenty of quotes about Tifa are, hence why they all see some mangling from time to time, but those especially.

The active choice not to follow the evidence to the end is baffling.

It would hurt to much to admit to being wrong, for their chosen ship to be sunk.

It's an emotional sunk cost fallacy, in a way.

 

[Sacky]

https://www.reddit.com/r/FFVIIRemake/comments/1d7w4q3 Why do people try to say Aerith teen life was tragic and that she had no sunlight and grew up in a crime ridden sector compared to sector 7
How can people think this and have played Remake with kids running around in an orphanage. Can we not just say that Aerith had a bad childhood but good teen years compared to Tifa who had good childhood bad teen years. Can we not make it seem like Aerith is the most tragic character ever and celebrate her happy moments? which are not just to do with Cloud like some people think but also not Mafia boss Elymra XD who loved her?

 

[Ryeleigh]

https://www.reddit.com/r/FFVIIRemake/comments/1d7w4q3 Why do people try to say Aerith teen life was tragic and that she had no sunlight and grew up in a crime ridden sector compared to sector 7
How can people think this and have played Remake with kids running around in an orphanage. Can we not just say that Aerith had a bad childhood but good teen years compared to Tifa who had good childhood bad teen years. Can we not make it seem like Aerith is the most tragic character ever and celebrate her happy moments? which are not just to do with Cloud like some people think but also not Mafia boss Elymra XD who loved her?

One of the more ridiculous competitions that LTD spawned was if Aerith or Tifa was more privileged. Like, they're both basically princess characters with tragic pasts. Neither of them is privileged.

 

[Yoru]

https://www.reddit.com/r/FFVIIRemake/comments/1d7w4q3 Why do people try to say Aerith teen life was tragic and that she had no sunlight and grew up in a crime ridden sector compared to sector 7
How can people think this and have played Remake with kids running around in an orphanage. Can we not just say that Aerith had a bad childhood but good teen years compared to Tifa who had good childhood bad teen years. Can we not make it seem like Aerith is the most tragic character ever and celebrate her happy moments? which are not just to do with Cloud like some people think but also not Mafia boss Elymra XD who loved her?

One look at her house and it's clear she's not the worst off among the slum folks...

But then, that would require people to exercise moderation.

It's easier to portray her as the world's most unhappy person, to justify the fact that she's entitled to everything in FF7.

Because the team isn't made up of people broken by the Shinra's actions. Not at all. Tifa and Cloud are so lucky to no longer have a place to call home or family. It's so not fair that they're childhood friends. Clearly they can't understand what Aerith is going through.

 

[pxl_pushr]

One of the more ridiculous competitions that LTD spawned was if Aerith or Tifa was more privileged. Like, they're both basically princess characters with tragic pasts. Neither of them is privileged.

Aerith’s situation is very much a parallel to the princess of a foreign nation being held in a golden cage for reasons other than kindness. Her home very much resembles those villas you’d find said princess in, being monitored and guarded by those with who act as caretakers and prison wardens alike.

It’s not a great situation for its own reasons.

Also, tragedy isn’t a competition and it’s silly to treat it that way. If you laid out the cast’s tragedies and traumas you’d see they’re pretty even anyway with Reeve being the actual outlier ( as far as I can recall anyway ).

But it doesn’t matter at the end of the day. Petulant arguments to put one character over the other just expose that some people only pay attention to their favorite and little else.

 

[Yoru]

These people aren't Aerith fans it's not possible... how can you not understand a character that much.... She's the first one who doesn't want us to pity her... she's a character who's supposed to embody life. She's supposed to push you forward, to tell you that despite the tragedies of your past, the future can bring you moments of happiness. She's the first to be angry with herself when she starts to mope.

It's not as if we only learn in the final chapters of Remake what really happened to her as a child... and what she really is. And half the informations isn't even confided by her... because she values life and joy more than everything else.

Even more after her death.

 

[Sacky]

?????????????????????? im sorry we are talking about Remake here right?
theres white doves that fly out of that sector XD

 

[Yoru]

I think that after the so-called Cloud fans who want to make him look like a womanizer and a sentimental manipulator, it's time to gatekeep Aerith from her "fans" too...