SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[eleamaya]

Yuki's part is supposed to be part of the reveal of her childhood memory regarding her hat boy love story. Hat boy is by her own admission her first love and the manga reveals hat boy is Yuki. Seeing her have the hat is his catalyst to confess his romantic feelings. And you think that's that until he basically family zones her and you later find out what happens with Tohru and Kyo. In an interview Takaya revealed that was always her intention from the start "Yuki and Tohru 's bond is family". And Kyo was always endgame.

Now I get why Takaya ship Clerith.

But in Japan marketing and the anime they heavily pushed Sakura and Naruto too.

There's more I can bring up if you want. But sometimes endgame canon really is not what is shown up front.

Is this same as Ichigo x Rukia from BLEACH?

 

[BioTeach]

Their problem is not about players quitting EC, but losing their hype for p3 in main game because that one, they want to sell. It's that bad. There are people who plan on not buying the game until they are sure that they'll do Tifa and CT justice, and others who are just leaving FFVII and al, point blank, because they lost faith in SE due to their bad PR.

That's what happens when a fanservice game doesn't fan service the heroine as such.

Really? I follow a lot of Cloti/Tifa fan accounts on twitter and everything I've seen there is pretty much the total opposite of this. There is so much hype for P3 with everyone practically gushing over how great it's going to be for Cloti after the feast of new content in Rebirth and all of Cloti's best original scenes still to come. If anything, this threat of boycotting if SE jilts their fave is coming from CAs. I can understand Tifa fans choosing to skip out on EC outfits they don't like, that's fair. But I find it hard to believe that that many of them would be butthurt enough from a non-canon gacha game to skip the final installment of the main game that has been extremely generous to Tifa so far. SE has a clear ending to the LTD in mind and I don't think CT is the side that's worried about it.

 

[Skilganon]

Honestly, they should just put 2B in EC, problem solved. No need to explain it, we're past that. have her show up at Seventh Heaven, go on dates with Cloud and all that.

Merch sales were very high because of Tifa and 2B figures. It's a sound strategy.

 

[lyingbanana]

They're the definition of torn apart BY fate. While CT are pushed TOGETHER by fate.

I would argue the story actually pulls CT apart, reuniting them until the very end.
Cloud and Tifa have feelings since childhood right? But the bridge incident happens, thus pulling them apart in those younger years.
Then Cloud leaves the village, so they are even further apart.
Then the Nibelheim incident happens, again tearing them apart.
Then the proper FF7 happens and Cloud's mental state plus Tifa's own confusion on their memories keep them inching closer and then pulling them apart.
Its a very concious decision on part of the characters to be together, Tifa at Mideel, and Cloud opening up in the Lifestream.

I guess you could say that because they keep finding one another is fate but then so would be being pulled apart by things outside of their control.

So honestly, what is pulling CA apart but the characters themselves?
(I mean death is a biggie lol, but before that, because like I listed there are many things pulling apart CT)

CA is an example of Ships In The Night where they're not exactly destined to be together but impact and change eachother anyway. Ships In The Night by definition are not usually the endgame. So it's not really about Destiny but about meeting regardless of it.

This sums it up quite well.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

I would argue the story actually pulls CT apart, reuniting them until the very end.
Cloud and Tifa have feelings since childhood right? But the bridge incident happens, thus pulling them apart in those younger years.
Then Cloud leaves the village, so they are even further apart.
Then the Nibelheim incident happens, again tearing them apart.
Then the proper FF7 happens and Cloud's mentalmstate plus Tifa's own confusion on their memories keep them inching closer and then pulling them apart.
Its a very concious decision on part of the characters to be together, Tifa at Mideel, and Cloud opening up in the Lifestream.

I guess you could say that because they keep finding one another is fate but then so would be being pulled apart by things outside of their control.

So honestly, what is pulling CA apart but the characters themselves?
(I mean death is a biggie lol, but before that, because like I listed there are many things pulling apart CT)

This sums it up quite well.

You said it yourself CA is pulled apart by death. But fate too because it's Aerith's fate to be a Cetra and have a responsibility to the planet no matter if she had lived this would be the same, hence they're Ships In The Night. They meet regardless of fate they meet from circumstance but then are torn apart because of fate. So as I said if they were endgame but everything stayed the same the fate aspect for them would be different where they'd be defying that fate.

This was a specific response to a specific question: "You can say it was destiny for them to end up together but if you flip it around, you could just as easily say that CA was destiny if they had been the intended endgame?" My answer is no I don't think so because CA's story would be about going against destiny.

CT is reunited yeah so they first have to be apart for them to reunite at all. But it's not really fate that pulls them apart in this case it's a series of tragic events sure and Cloud choosing to leave at first. But then they're brought together by fate and survive to the end. They are torn apart by circumstance but reunite through fate.

CT are not fighting destiny in order to be together or anything like that.
They don't need to defy a fate that literally works in their favor and let's them survive through to the end. They were always going to end up together eventually. And yes exactly they keep finding eachother. That's the fate aspect. Add the promise to it and there you have your destiny based romance.

And that's basically what I said. CT is the typical fated reunion of childhood friends who have a promise. It completely revolves around the concept of fate. Working for them though to bring them to their reunion. Not around actively defying fate.

Also my point being the childhood promise aspect guarantees a reunion just by default. So it really doesn't matter to my point how torn apart they are when they're going to reunite anyway.

 

[Eerie]

Really? I follow a lot of Cloti/Tifa fan accounts on twitter and everything I've seen there is pretty much the total opposite of this. There is so much hype for P3 with everyone practically gushing over how great it's going to be for Cloti after the feast of new content in Rebirth and all of Cloti's best original scenes still to come. If anything, this threat of boycotting if SE jilts their fave is coming from CAs. I can understand Tifa fans choosing to skip out on EC outfits they don't like, that's fair. But I find it hard to believe that that many of them would be butthurt enough from a non-canon gacha game to skip the final installment of the main game that has been extremely generous to Tifa so far. SE has a clear ending to the LTD in mind and I don't think CT is the side that's worried about it.

Yeah I know too some big CT who are very excited for p3 (and I mean I am also very excited too, but I’m no big accounts). But I know others who leave the fandom and games because as I said, the marketing leads them to believe that only Aerith matters. And others who see Rebirth’s ending and see two timings cheater Cloud (thanks the EN translation I guess, but also remember they probably saw the CT kiss), and they don’t like it, so they leave. Especially because there is an harassment push from CAs to make CT content creators leave the fandom space (or even just streamers who play the game and see CT and enjoy it).

So yeah the fandom is literally cut in half, with people who are very excited on one side, and others getting caught on the bad Rebirth PR and CA narrative about the ending on the other side. And the PR is actually what makes them believe that what CAs say is true. And EC is part of the PR, CA keep saying the CA GS date is the canon one, even though the devs disagree there is no canon date, and then EC pushes this stupid event. There is no winning against bad arguments when they do this honestly.

 

[Hellenic]

Nah this event is shit for any Tifa fan, it's absolutely infuriating how they're ignoring one of the heroine for a FFVII CROSSOVER (don't remind me of last year where she was barely present and it was all about Sephiroth). There's zero fairness and the bias that both Toriyama and Ishikawa have towards Aerith shows. Not only that but it's also somehow half arsed, with Cloud not even getting the recognition he should have.

And WORST, they treat Barret like SHIT for HIS month. I'm super mad at them.

I'm personally glad they didn't bombard me with another Tifa limited banner. I feel more bad for the Aerith pullers who had to jump into yet another limited banner right away after the NY one. I tend to pull for Aerith stuff too but i skipped this time couse it didn't feel that necessary for my account or anything.

Barret did get his UW and about to get an actual limited banner to finally use his weapon parts on though so that's already a major win for him even if the event his stuff comes with isn't centered on him.

 

[Hellenic]

You have to wonder, after Aerith dies in the EC storyline, what are they going to do? Are they going to just stop updates? If they continue, then there's no more excuses for dates and costumes and such. We have to assume they've thought that far ahead, but then again maybe they haven't.

EC isn't developed by SE, it's outsourced to a company called Aplibot. Therefore, they don't have as much oversight as an in-house team. It pretty much creates a third timeline(together with the OG and Remake).

But are they really going to just completely cut Aerith out of the game and all future seasonal events and stories?!

I mean you have for example Zack, a character already dead appearing in these event stories so there is literally no reason they couldn't portal gimmick Aerith to appear in later ones too and you best bet they won't stop giving her more banners and have her appear in some events past her story sections end. This is a gacha game afterall where none of that really matters.

About EC: they have been pushing Aerith since the beginning, and people are tired of her and more importantly, of how the game is evolving (limited banner after limited banner, characters and weapons that get unusable because they don't get updates...). They give Aerith the best weapons just to make sure people are forced to buy her. (even then they sometimes miss, proof is that Aerith is skip this month for whales). Anyway this game is doing pretty badly rn, and it's not only Aerith's fault lol.

I do hate how they keep giving her all the great tools while other supports like Matt, Red and Barret get left to the side with barely getting anything. I'm basically having an Aerith limited banner fatique at this point and i can't reasonably keep pulling for her OP tools any further when i already have to focus on Tifa stuff too, so i'm basically done pulling hard for Aerith too couse i just can't keep up with that.

Really? I follow a lot of Cloti/Tifa fan accounts on twitter and everything I've seen there is pretty much the total opposite of this. There is so much hype for P3 with everyone practically gushing over how great it's going to be for Cloti after the feast of new content in Rebirth and all of Cloti's best original scenes still to come. If anything, this threat of boycotting if SE jilts their fave is coming from CAs. I can understand Tifa fans choosing to skip out on EC outfits they don't like, that's fair. But I find it hard to believe that that many of them would be butthurt enough from a non-canon gacha game to skip the final installment of the main game that has been extremely generous to Tifa so far. SE has a clear ending to the LTD in mind and I don't think CT is the side that's worried about it.

I honestly don't know why so many people put so much importance to whatever the hell EC does with it's characters when you have the games themselves telling you the actual story and not some gacha game banner favorism being an indicator of anything.

Also I want to comment on EC. I don't play it and I don't think I ever will but I play gacha games. I know gacha games and basically Applibot is pulling the oldest trick in the gacha company book. It has zero to do with canon or shipping or the story or love for certain characters. If you think they care about anything besides money you're going to be disappointed.

Aerith's being pushed for very simple reasons. Aerith's an iconic recognizable character people will spend money on and now is the best time for them to push her.

It's the best time to push her because Rebirth was supposed to be her tribute game. Now they have the attention of not just CAs but Aerith fans in general. Now they can get all the money from her fans very easily. And after part 3 comes out this chance of getting their money especially if they disappoint the fans that want her to live will go down significantly. By running her so much now they're convincing her fans "No, no we really love Aerith in this house" so they can keep them as customers for as long as possible.

Meanwhile they know Tifa sells. They know any time that they put out a Tifa banner they will get money. So why on Earth would they give Tifa fans what they want when they can drain the Aerith fans wallets now and run Tifa at any time and still make profit? And they can then push Tifa later when Pt 3 comes out and make double that because her fans would have been waiting for her even more. It's false scarcity, if you think they're shunning your favorite character there's a chance you'll spend more to see them.

Genshin just did this with Wish Chronicle after almost 2 years of not running several characters they are now on a banner that won't save your wishes so it's higher risk for rewards (meaning more incentive to spend now for a guaranteed) running alongside two others as a triple banner. Everyone in the community feels these characters have been "shunned" when all that it is they will grab triple the money now because they're now considered "rare".

Meanwhile they keep the other characters in their back pocket, by making running them rarer this ensures that there is demand for them. So any time they run them they will also get money.

This is about the money. They're doing what makes them the most money like how some gacha games won't run certain units for a whole year. While everyone is getting mad they are "shunning" the units they're just increasing the demand for them so when they do run they can run them aside a triple banner or something and guarantee profits.

"But giving other characters more and being fair will make them more money!"

Actually no it won't. Basically "shunning" your favorite characters makes them seem more valuable and increases incentives to pull on all their banners not just the ones you can afford.
And they can also increase the chances of selling other characters in this same way while getting money from the fans of the characters they are pushing. Being unfair gets them more profit that's why gacha is never about fairness.

I'm sorry to say gacha companies are gacha companies and they have the scummiest practices because it actually really works for them.

As for Barrett a lot of gacha companies tend to have an issue with racism. No surprise there sadly but true.

Anyone who thinks their choices are about anything such as love for their characters or the story or anything else besides making as much money as possible is going to be severely disappointed.

Basically what Lunar here said. They're just out there to make money with these characters here and not trying to respect the characters in any way shape or form.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

Now I get why Takaya ship Clerith.


Is this same as Ichigo x Rukia from BLEACH?

I don't understand what you mean about Clerith can you explain lol?

It's funny cause for the longest time I thought she shipped Yuki and Tohru because she gave him so many scenes. I literally fell for it myself until endgame. With Naruto too. Specifically with the anime because Studio Pierrot added lots of filler pushing Sakura that's not even in the manga.

I actually have no idea because I know nothing of Bleach. But this is very often the case with long running manga where they want to put some sort of misleading twist.

Making things misleading by showing things not as they seem apparently looks to be a favorite go to story tactic. I've read it from multiple writers at this point. Also when it comes to marketing I see it often. They take two iconic characters and just put them on everything.

 

[Ryeleigh]

Fruits Basket. Takaya made a triangle between Tohru Yuki and Kyo in the manga where he confesses and realized it's a family bond. Before this they had every romantic imagery you can think of. She revealed later on she almost meant for Yuki and Tohru to have a family like bond not a romantic one. But Yuki is introduced as a love interest and he has feelings for her and teased till about halfway through the manga. Endgame was actually Kyo and it was a twist because Yuki's part is supposed to be part of the reveal of her childhood memory regarding her hat boy love story. Hat boy is by her own admission her first love and the manga reveals hat boy is Yuki. Seeing her have the hat is his catalyst to confess his romantic feelings. And you think that's that until he basically family zones her and you later find out what happens with Tohru and Kyo. In an interview Takaya revealed that was always her intention from the start "Yuki and Tohru 's bond is family". And Kyo was always endgame.

Sasuke and Sakura, Naruto and Hinata. Kishimoto admitted he decided these were endgame pretty early on but decided to make it "misleading" his own words and in the manga Naruto's mom tells him "to marry a girl like her". And it's hinted the entire time to be Sakura who is based on Kishimoto's wife as per his own words. His wife also shipped them. But he decided it was just a cool red herring. Naruto spends the entire first half of the manga in love with Sakura while Hinata looks on from afar. Sakura confesses to Naruto as a way of letting her go after Sasuke to kill him before he gets killed by the Kages but he calls her out on her still loving Sasuke and not him and that was the end of that. But in Japan marketing and the anime they heavily pushed Sakura and Naruto too.

There's more I can bring up if you want. But sometimes endgame canon really is not what is shown up front.

Edit: Added spoiler tag just in case despite these being well known

I haven't yet read or seen Fruits Basket.

As for Naruto, I personally never got that vibe from those two.

Though, funny enough and kind of keeping on the topic:

G.O.D: Mezameyo to Yobu Koe ga Kikoe: Has a blond soldier character who falls in love with a female character who just so happens to have a pink character sprite, lol. It's implied they have sex at an inn one night and then you lose the female character as a party member when you find out she's pregnant. I was so innocent, I was all, "oh that's so cool, I've never lost a party member because of pregnancy before." And then she gets killed in an attack and the blond soldier goes immediately berserk and leaves the party to chase after the character who killed her. At one point, the characters talk about meeting God™ and I thought that maybe this meant we could get the female character back! But when the game introduced another love interest for the blond soldier I realized it wasn't happening, alas. I missed that female character, she was so much better than the character who replaced her. Well, at least the blond soldier didn't spend his whole life alone.

This is why I find it a bit funny when thinking about the LTD because FF7 does nothing like this. Instead, Cloud says that only another female character's opinion matters and eventually confesses that she's always been the raison d'être of his character.

Shadow Hearts 1 and 2: The main character's love interest dies in the first game and then in the second game he meets another female main character. He repeatedly ogles her body, imagines her naked, or in revealing (....well, more revealing) clothes. She's shown to be one to worry about him the most, have faith him in, nurse him, and eventually she outright confesses to him. They also have a lot of private moments of bonding. And you might at this point think that the game is building her up as a second love interest? And you would be dead wrong because PLOT TWIST: she turns out to be the main character's mother through time travel/paradox shenanigans. The lesson here is that sometimes a story might give the illusion of a love interest, only for that love interest to turn out to be the mother.

I actually kind of guessed the mother twist when the main character said his mother must've named him after her first love but I dismissed the intuition as implausible.

Shadow Hearts was honestly one of the more bizarre games I've played in a while.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Fruits Basket. Takaya made a triangle between Tohru Yuki and Kyo in the manga where he confesses and realized it's a family bond. Before this they had every romantic imagery you can think of. She revealed later on she almost meant for Yuki and Tohru to have a family like bond not a romantic one. But Yuki is introduced as a love interest and he has feelings for her and teased till about halfway through the manga. Endgame was actually Kyo and it was a twist because Yuki's part is supposed to be part of the reveal of her childhood memory regarding her hat boy love story. Hat boy is by her own admission her first love and the manga reveals hat boy is Yuki. Seeing her have the hat is his catalyst to confess his romantic feelings. And you think that's that until he basically family zones her and you later find out what happens with Tohru and Kyo. In an interview Takaya revealed that was always her intention from the start "Yuki and Tohru 's bond is family". And Kyo was always endgame.

Sasuke and Sakura, Naruto and Hinata. Kishimoto admitted he decided these were endgame pretty early on but decided to make it "misleading" his own words and in the manga Naruto's mom tells him "to marry a girl like her". And it's hinted the entire time to be Sakura who is based on Kishimoto's wife as per his own words. His wife also shipped them. But he decided it was just a cool red herring. Naruto spends the entire first half of the manga in love with Sakura while Hinata looks on from afar. Sakura confesses to Naruto as a way of letting her go after Sasuke to kill him before he gets killed by the Kages but he calls her out on her still loving Sasuke and not him and that was the end of that. But in Japan marketing and the anime they heavily pushed Sakura and Naruto too.

There's more I can bring up if you want. But sometimes endgame canon really is not what is shown up front.

Edit: Added spoiler tag just in case despite these being well known

It's funny you say that because from the earliest days of Naturo I figured Hinata was endgame and Sakura was a red herring. Likewise Kyo seemed to be the one most framed by the narrative as Tohru's endgame.

You said it yourself CA is pulled apart by death. But fate too because it's Aerith's fate to be a Cetra and have a responsibility to the planet no matter if she had lived this would be the same, hence they're Ships In The Night. They meet regardless of fate they meet from circumstance but then are torn apart because of fate. So as I said if they were endgame but everything stayed the same the fate aspect for them would be different where they'd be defying that fate.

This was a specific response to a specific question: "You can say it was destiny for them to end up together but if you flip it around, you could just as easily say that CA was destiny if they had been the intended endgame?" My answer is no I don't think so because CA's story would be about going against destiny.

CT is reunited yeah so they first have to be apart for them to reunite at all. But it's not really fate that pulls them apart in this case it's a series of tragic events sure and Cloud choosing to leave at first. But then they're brought together by fate and survive to the end. They are torn apart by circumstance but reunite through fate.

CT are not fighting destiny in order to be together or anything like that.
They don't need to defy a fate that literally works in their favor and let's them survive through to the end. They were always going to end up together eventually. And yes exactly they keep finding eachother. That's the fate aspect. Add the promise to it and there you have your destiny based romance.

And that's basically what I said. CT is the typical fated reunion of childhood friends who have a promise. It completely revolves around the concept of fate. Working for them though to bring them to their reunion. Not around actively defying fate.

Also my point being the childhood promise aspect guarantees a reunion just by default. So it really doesn't matter to my point how torn apart they are when they're going to reunite anyway.

Honestly, from this end there doesn't seem to be much difference between circumstance and destiny. Is it just the existence of the promise to protect her if she's in a pinch that makes it "fated" here?

Shadow Hearts was honestly one of the more bizarre games I've played in a while.

Likewise Koudelka, the prequel.

 

[Ryeleigh]

Likewise Koudelka, the prequel.

No, I'm in denial about that, lol.

I liked Koudelka, I thought she was such an interesting female character.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

It's funny you say that because from the earliest days of Naturo I figured Hinata was endgame and Sakura was a red herring. Likewise Kyo seemed to be the one most framed by the narrative as Tohru's endgame.

So did I for Hinata but then for years they pushed Sakura and Naruto and I figured okay I guess I was wrong. Only to be right in the end.

Kyo is that in the anime but in the manga it confused a lot of people. The manga focuses on the boy with the hat for the first half. And that boy was Yuki. She calls him (the boy with the hat) her first love and Yuki falls for her. You later find out how the hat connects Tohru and Yuki and also Kyo and Yuki because it's tied to their history. After this we get more scenes with Kyo as romantic but before then the narrative sets up Yuki. The hat is not even brought up in the anime and there's more equal scenes that established Kyo more obviously especially the season finale. I say this while Kyo is my favorite character and Yuki and Maki are one of my favorite endgame couples. Takaya had to say something because a lot of people expected a romance with Yuki. Especially because they build up to him needing to confess no one expected his answer.

Honestly, from this end there doesn't seem to be much difference between circumstance and destiny. Is it just the existence of the promise to protect her if she's in a pinch that makes it "fated" here?



Likewise Koudelka, the prequel.

If you want to you can treat both similar. I don't personally see circumstance and destiny as the same thing at all. Circumstances are random events, destiny is a charted course. But let's say okay destiny pulled them apart. Then destiny also reunited them. My point is the same.
Either way CT's story is based on destiny charted course that favors them. You can say oh it separates them but then it reunites them. And that's a guaranteed reunion. At no point is it not guaranteed. People might say the opposite but when you look at all the themes of reunion and promises in their story that much cannot be more "fated reunion" if it tried. I don't see anything regarding them as random or lucky or coincidence.

And it's just through the themes of their story throughout. I can't unsee it. It's just way too obvious to me. Especially now with Remake and ReTrilogy. With CT standing on a huge reunion flower rug when the camera zooms out. In what other way am I supposed to see it besides "fated reunion"? It's definitely not random.

That's my point. Following the above:
One CT is reunited through the blessing of fate after tragedy separates them. One CA meets through "fate" (fated encounter) but then is separated by tragedy. One character whose entire arc is now being linked to "defying" fate. Themes wise these two dynamics are opposites with how they address the theme of fate. Which has always been part of FF7 since OG it's not some new thing added in ReTrilogy.

This is similar with ZA too both literally torn apart by fate. And both meet a terrible fate. With Zack literally currently "defying fate." So yeah. Fate. It's definitely a thing in this story.

Not just the promise. You have the reunion after 7 years and everything else that is framed on reuniting in their story such as Cloud being in Nibelheim 5 years ago to spending the night together at the literal end of the world. If we go by the Tanabata symbolism with making a promise under a starry sky that too is another symbol of reunion. And not any random one.

Edit: Erased mistakes. Made it clearer

 

[eleamaya]

I don't understand what you mean about Clerith can you explain lol?

It's funny cause for the longest time I thought she shipped Yuki and Tohru because she gave him so many scenes. I literally fell for it myself until endgame.

Natsuki Takaya, the author of Fruit Basket, ships Clerith. She draw few Clerith fanarts on her Twitter account. You give me the reason why that it does sound very intentional she doesnt root to childhood memory of the first love revealation to be endgame because she doesnt ship Cloti. Or maybe she feels the game also misleaded her, thus she wants to mislead her reader half way too.

I drop Fruit Basket because it's boring to me, sorry, so I dont remember the rest. At first, I love the premise about the characters being the animal of Chinese Lunar Year, so I see the fantasy potential plot in it. I dont like pure romance lol. But I remember I ship Kyo with Tohru because Kyo is like an outcast since cat doesnt exist. and I dont like the way Yuki is kinda bullying him as a loser, and usually shoujo will let the girl fell with this 'bad boy' type. Since I love tragedy, the ship that stuck in my head is Tohru's parents lol.

NOTE: When I talk about Japanese titles of anime such as Fruit Basket, Naruto, Bleach, etc; it's all the manga. I'm manga reader, not anime watcher.

I actually have no idea because I know nothing of Bleach. But this is very often the case with long running manga where they want to put some sort of misleading twist.

I heard from my friend who ship Ichigo x Rukia that the anime pushed this pair so bad. I read manga only so I already root to Ichigo x Orihime, who are childhood friends, that Ichigo even had been watching her since her older brother died. I see it as there's protective nature in Ichigo towards Orihime, especially because he sorta blame himself for his mother's death who protect him from a soul monster called Hollow. But since the story is focus more on Shinigami universe where Orihime isn't part of it and tend to be sideline despite her crush, Ichigo and Rukia is the duo who protect their realm from Hollow, especially because Rukia, a Shinigami, gave him her power for Ichigo to be Shinigami.... and this is loooong before it's revealed that Ichigo's dad is Shinigami too, so people can say "See? Human can marry Shinigami and have children". But Orihime is always there to support Ichigo, even when Ichigo want to save Rukia because she's punished by the court for giving a human (him) a Shinigami power. People may see it's romance but I always see it as Ichigo's gratitude towards Rukia that he has responsibility too. And finally, in the middle arc, Orihime become more significant, as the new villain 'kidnap' her.

Dont worry about my friend, she still ship that pair but accept that it ain't canon. BLEACH anime is running again after long hiatus, and despite the endgame couple (Ichigo x Orihime), it's still marketed with Ichigo and Rukia since they are the duo. So my friend has reason to keep fangirling over it, regardless the canon. Kubo Tite, the author, said Ichigo and Rukia's bond is "more than a friend, less than lover". And actually, I never have problem with this "more than a friend" since it's shounen--I'm used to it very much, and most male authors feel they arent good portray romance and tend to separate which important comrade, and which romantic partner. The problem is always the readers' lens because " if their friendship is so good then why they aren't endgame??"

 

[Ryushikaze]

So did I for Hinata but then for years they pushed Sakura and Naruto and I figured okay I guess I was wrong. Only to be right in the end.

Kyo is that in the anime but in the manga it confused a lot of people. The manga focuses on the boy with the hat for the first half. And that boy was Yuki. She calls him (the boy with the hat) her first love and Yuki falls for her. You later find out how the hat connects Tohru and Yuki and also Kyo and Yuki because it's tied to their history. After this we get more scenes with Kyo as romantic but before then the narrative sets up Yuki. The hat is not even brought up in the anime and there's more equal scenes that established Kyo more obviously especially the season finale. I say this while Kyo is my favorite character and Yuki and Maki are one of my favorite endgame couples. Takaya had to say something because a lot of people expected a romance with Yuki. Especially because they build up to him needing to confess no one expected his answer.

If you want to you can treat both similar. I don't personally see circumstance and destiny as the same thing at all. Circumstances are random events, destiny is a charted course. But let's say okay destiny pulled them apart. Then destiny also reunited them. My point is the same.
Either way CT's story is based on destiny charted course that favors them. You can say oh it separates them but then it reunites them. And that's a guaranteed reunion. At no point is it not guaranteed. People might say the opposite but when you look at all the themes of reunion and promises in their story that much cannot be more "fated reunion" if it tried. I don't see anything regarding them as random or lucky or coincidence.

And it's just through the themes of their story throughout. I can't unsee it. It's just way too obvious to me. Especially now with Remake and ReTrilogy. With CT standing on a huge reunion flower rug when the camera zooms out. In what other way am I supposed to see it besides "fated reunion"? It's definitely not random.

That's my point. Following the above:
One CT is reunited through the blessing of fate after tragedy separates them. One CA meets through "fate" (fated encounter) but then is separated by tragedy. One character whose entire arc is now being linked to "defying" fate. Themes wise these two dynamics are opposites with how they address the theme of fate. Which has always been part of FF7 since OG it's not some new thing added in ReTrilogy.

This is similar with ZA too both literally torn apart by fate. And both meet a terrible fate. With Zack literally currently "defying fate." So yeah. Fate. It's definitely a thing in this story.

Not just the promise. You have the reunion after 7 years and everything else that is framed on reuniting in their story such as Cloud being in Nibelheim 5 years ago to spending the night together at the literal end of the world. If we go by the Tanabata symbolism with making a promise under a starry sky that too is another symbol of reunion. And not any random one.

Edit: Erased mistakes. Made it clearer

My point is more that it feels like it's a distinction without a difference. You talk about the blessing of fate reuniting CT, but how is it functionally different than them meeting by chance? How is CT's reunion fate, but Aerith's death not also fate and thus the CA separation fate.

I understand you like stuff that feels like chance instead of fated, but you haven't explained what distinguishes fate from chance in a functional narrative sense (and that's setting aside the hand of the author making it that chance is fate in a very real way)

 

[Eerie]

Good lord Ichigo and Ori aren’t childhood friends, it’s Tatsuki who’s his childhood friend. It’s all I’m gonna say about that manga because uh. And yes Kubo himself pushed IR on his own twitter account lol back then. If you think Nojima pushes CT, then you haven’t seen Kubo back in the day. There’s a reason why some feel IO is badly written and I’m sure if she ever reads it @LunarTarotGirl will be able to tell lol.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

My point is more that it feels like it's a distinction without a difference. You talk about the blessing of fate reuniting CT, but how is it functionally different than them meeting by chance? How is CT's reunion fate, but Aerith's death not also fate and thus the CA separation fate.

I understand you like stuff that feels like chance instead of fated, but you haven't explained what distinguishes fate from chance in a functional narrative sense (and that's setting aside the hand of the author making it that chance is fate in a very real way)

I don't really mind if something is by chance or by fate. I just don't see these two concepts as the same. That was never the issue.

I think you misunderstood. I don't like stories revolving around fate if by fate it means I know the outcome will be guaranteed because the characters are meant to be together from the beginning and all signs point to it. If I figure out the ending of the story I won't usually stick around to see the rest. Unless something else is keeping me there. If they met by chance and their life is a series of random circumstances and this was still the case I still would have the exact same opinion.

I haven't explained the difference between the two because it doesn't exactly matter to me if it's by fate or by chance to dissect that. I know the ending of the story because it's obvious that's the issue. My issue with tropes of Childhood Friends To Lovers is not fate alone, is that it's obvious. But someone asked me if I think CT is feels fated and yes I see them as such and I can't unsee it because of the symbolism I described.

If you say that CT actually met by chance I definitely don't see it because of the Tanabata symbolism of the starry sky and a promise that binds them but sure I can live with that. If you say CA is fated too I can also live with that. My opinion is still the same though.

The "advantage" CA has here in winning my interest was not only do they not get together, one of them dies. ZA too has this "advantage." Now because of this there is uncertainty in the will they ever see each other again? How will that turn out aspect. It gives it the impression of not being so clear cut a story as one of about people I know will reunite.

 

[Ryeleigh]

I heard from my friend who ship Ichigo x Rukia that the anime pushed this pair so bad. I read manga only so I already root to Ichigo x Orihime, who are childhood friends, that Ichigo even had been watching her since her older brother died.

I want to make two corrections if you don't mind, lol.

One) It wasn't just the anime that pushed Ichigo x Rukia. Most Ichigo x Rukia shippers actually started shipping it because of the manga. But for some reason, this "it was only because of the anime" misconception is pushed by Ichigo x Orihime shippers. I don't know why? Because it doesn't matter or change anything?

Two) Another misconception Ichigo x Orihime shippers often push is that Ichigo and Orihime were childhood friends. But "met once" and "went into the same school" really aren't the same as "childhood friends" even if Japanese manga often have a kind of loose definition of "friends". I don't know why people do this either?

Good lord Ichigo and Ori aren’t childhood friends, it’s Tatsuki who’s his childhood friend.

And this.

And that shall also be all I will say about Bleach, lol.

Carry on with the super vague Only One Girl Got a Kiss and The Other Girl's Boyfriend is Back From the Dead LT debate, lol.

 

[AncientGrim]

Yeah I know too some big CT who are very excited for p3 (and I mean I am also very excited too, but I’m no big accounts). But I know others who leave the fandom and games because as I said, the marketing leads them to believe that only Aerith matters. And others who see Rebirth’s ending and see two timings cheater Cloud (thanks the EN translation I guess, but also remember they probably saw the CT kiss), and they don’t like it, so they leave. Especially because there is an harassment push from CAs to make CT content creators leave the fandom space (or even just streamers who play the game and see CT and enjoy it).

So yeah the fandom is literally cut in half, with people who are very excited on one side, and others getting caught on the bad Rebirth PR and CA narrative about the ending on the other side. And the PR is actually what makes them believe that what CAs say is true. And EC is part of the PR, CA keep saying the CA GS date is the canon one, even though the devs disagree there is no canon date, and then EC pushes this stupid event. There is no winning against bad arguments when they do this honestly.

Sorry in advance for what’s probably going to be a bit of a lengthy post.

I know what the feeling is like to lose confidence in what you initially believed to be both certain and true. You don’t need to be a public face in the fandom as either a content creator, influencer, or streamer to bear witness to the clearly coordinated campaign of harassment, along with seeking to both control the narrative, and spread a false one in its place.


Before I go any further, yes, there is harassment too from the extremes on the CT side. That goes without saying. It is important to acknowledge that there is some extremely toxic behaviour from extreme CTs, and harassment from them towards CAs, and yes even the developers as well. No one side should take the sole role of victim, not when there is so much hostility being directed and expressed, and from both sides.

It also goes without saying that this is deeply, deeply damaging, outright wrong, and problematic for the community and wider fandom at large that we still have an eternal flame war between the two extremes on either side. To the point that I’m starting to hope that the shippers on both sides, the ones who both ship and DON’T get involved in the fandom infighting, might someday seek to open communication and dialogue between each other.

If only to hopefully one day show that there can be civil discussions and healthy debate between both CTs and CAs in the fandom, even if it’s something as light as just talking about what various aspects of their ship that they like. Positive discourse.
But alas…


As you said, there is a widespread narrative going around about both the content of Part 3, its ending, and specifically its romantic endgame.

This alone, when it is as widespread as it has been, is enough to create doubt. It’s proven nearly every week here and in other online spaces that there is still actual discussion about What If for part 3.

What if Cloud and Tifa AREN’T endgame?

What if Cloud and Aerith are?!

What if Zack really is rejected?

What if there are multiple endings, where the one with Cloud and Aerith is shown in the credits and thus it’s the canon one?!

What if Cloud does defy space and time to find his one true love Aerith in “their place”?

And really at the end of the day, the only thing that these arguments have going for it are that it’s CA that’s saying it.

That’s it.

They don’t have anything in the writing to back this up. Nothing in the games. Nothing in the characters themselves.

Because the same CAs making these arguments about Part 3 are the same ones saying that Aerith’s GS is the “Canon One”.

And?!

That’s still ignoring the context of their date. But then they see the date as a mutual love confession.

They see the church dream date as one big love confession.

They see the ending at the Tiny Bronco as a romantic Squall and Rinoa like romantic promise to find each other again and return to “their spot”.

When this is what they see as the text, it’s no wonder they are so confident about what Part 3 has in store for them.


But these moments don’t exist in a Clerith tinted glasses vacuum, and they exist beyond just their view of them as romantic affirmations, ignoring all exterior and even interior context that explains that it is not as simple as they perceive it to be.

The Cloud and Tifa moments also don’t exist in a vacuum. But they also certainly don’t owe themselves to the readings of the CA is endgame camp, who have the usual array of explanations to handwave these moments away, that honestly make their interpretations of Advent Children seem quaint by comparison.

Everything from Tifa is taking advantage of Cloud. That their relationship romanticises abuse.
That the Gold Saucer kiss is a jealousy kiss. A pity kiss.
That Cloud kisses her on the cheek.

And so on and so forth.

And what? Because they say so. That’s it. The important context being that they have to say these things so that their head canon of what’s actually happening can work.

Cloud and Tifa can’t be romantic. It can’t be a positive relationship. It has to be twisted into something dark. Tifa has to be villainised.

Cloud has to become an awful, manipulative jerk.

“Tifa deserves better!”

But Aerith, their supposed favourite, the pure, perfect, princess who can do no wrong, is worthy of the affections of a man who jealously kisses another girl he knows has feelings for him.

And they think Cloud and Tifa’s relationship is dark?!


None of these arguments are done in good faith or spirit, not when they damage their own credibility and ship in the process, nor with any other intent than to seek to completely turn the narrative around on its head, and to spread it far and wide on the internet, on socials, on fandom sites, so that despite plenty of people seeing the relationships as they are, seeing the intent of the writers, they are made to think that the CA interpretation is the right one.


Speaking of things existing, and not existing, in bubbles or vacuums or spaces devoid of context, imagine a scenario where, the toxic CAs weren’t doing what they are doing now.

I sincerely don’t believe we’d be having so much, if anything, to doubt. Ever Crisis for all that’s contributed (or hasn’t) wouldn’t be as big a driver of controversy as it has been. Because the moments it puts Cloud and Aerith on a banner wouldn’t illicit anything more than appreciation for two of FFVII’s most iconic characters, who do have an important and special relationship, being promoted for an event.

Ever Crisis using Cloud and Aerith’s Gold Saucer and Loveless event from Rebirth wouldn’t cause anyone to bat an eye. Said event is still the same as what Rebirth depicts after all, with all of its context of what said moment actually conveys.

We don’t need to have Cloud and Tifa’s GS date to make us feel confident about canonicity or any such thing because the context of their date remains unchanged.

Cloud and Tifa have had their moments in Ever Crisis too, and I don’t think these have been heralded as victorious “wins” in so much as they don’t NEED to be. We have the main games and all of their important story and context to remind us that we don’t need constant, monthly affirmations from this mobile game to keep us confident in Part 3.

But outside of this extreme CA-less bubble, we do have a group of people who DO need constant affirmation. Assurance. Weekly “wins”.

They need dev statements, Ultimania quotes, translations.

Because they can’t rely just on their bad faith readings of the games because the games don’t favour their view at all. Despite their warped interpretations, they need more to keep their narrative in the race, to give it legs.

Which is why they harass and seek to silence any and all big names who go against the grain of what they perceive to be the endgame here.

They can’t have their narrative be made to be seen as the wrong one. Which is why they’ve rallied around Ever Crisis as much as they have because it’s an easy game to quickly twist in their favour. Cloud and Aerith are in an event together, immediately adds to this. No Tifa in sight?! That works for them too.


I can’t explain all this away, nor can I do more to quell the doubts of others (nor even my own, despite all I’m saying here)

But when you take a step away, and with an objective view see it all in the wider and necessary context of the entire Retrilogy, the picture becomes clear.

Both the story for Part 3, and what’s going on within the fandom.

I hate that there are those who have been pushed away. I myself needed a long break away (and no doubt will need another one before Part 3 lol) because it is without a doubt one of the most exhausting and emotionally draining things to do, to constantly hold your ground in this fandom and in particular this “debate”.

But when Rebirth came out, I think it’s fair to say, it exceeded our expectations. In a game all of us were expecting to be heavy on the focus on Cloud and Aerith, it instead did more to reinforce and make explicit the nature of Cloud and Tifa’s relationship, while at the same time greater defining the nature of what Cloud and Aerith’s relationship is. While it certainly hasn’t cleared up the questions surrounding Zack and Aerith’s relationship (yet) it’s certainly more than laid down the groundwork to deliver and maybe even exceed our expectations once again.

While I am sure for many CAs, those who love the characters as they are and the ship itself, there was nothing to be disappointed over, because any and all interactions, irrespective of context, between Cloud and Aerith is enough to make them happy and content.

Without a doubt though, there was significant disappointment about what Rebirth delivered for Clerith, especially the ones we now see so feverishly crying endgame for them.

You wouldn’t think it I know given what we are seeing now.

But when their argument about Tifa taking advantage of Cloud in Gongaga started spreading, that was one of the signs that just expressed both how hugely disappointed they were that Cloud and Aerith didn’t have such a moment, and how furious they were, otherwise they wouldn’t have sunk to such a low level as to even suggest Tifa doing this.

For YEARS have CA wanted nothing more than for Clerith to get the Lifestream, even Aerith appearing in whatever form or context in that sequence would be a huge victory for them. They have desperately wanted the Highwind, despite their assertions that nothing worthy of note happens in that scene.

And now they want all of Cloti’s moments in Rebirth too.

The kiss being a jealous kiss is perhaps the biggest Neon Flashing Sign that they were devastated by Rebirth not giving them a Clerith kiss (remember both before and after the Game Awards trailer, the dead set confidence that Clerith would kiss in Rebirth) because by using this argument, it’s not only the biggest admission of how angry they were that this was a Cloti moment and not a Clerith one, it was also the clearest admission they don’t care about Cloud or Aerith as characters at all.

They only care about the projected idea of what they both want and see in Cloud and Aerith.

I’ve said it before, but if this is a jealousy kiss, Cloud is an irredeemable asshole.

Tifa doesn’t deserve him, but Aerith does?!

Beyond that… there’s also Zack.

And nothing screams how terrified they are of how big a spanner in the works Zack is than their insistence that Zack both approves, and seeks to give Clerith their blessing.

And all because of the words of Marlene.

Because this is the last thing I think that’s worth mentioning in my intent to hopefully contribute to the dispelling of doubts.


And that the value or worth of any one thing in the entire compilation project is weighed in favour of what it either contributes (no matter how small) to supporting their idea of what Clerith means to be, vs whether it subtracts from it, or worse, adds to Cloud and Tifa’s relationship.

Marlene’s words are taken as gospel. Anything Yuffie says is dismissed because “she’s just an immature child”.

The Maiden That Travels The Planet is a sacred text.

Traces of Two Pasts, 2000 Gil (anything written by Nojima lol) is a banned text.

Ever Crisis showed Cloud and Aerith in the Loveless play. It’s canon.

Tifa also unlocks the titles of “Princess” and “Rosa”. Those were meant for Aerith.


I could go on but I’ve already written and rambled on way too much and whatever point I was attempting to aim for has likely been lost along the way.

I know I am repeating ad nauseam what’s already been said perhaps a hundred times over by now.


But I do want to say something, in any such way, to try and hopefully help make getting through this wait for Part 3 easier (other than IGNORE THE BAD ARGUMENTS). Even if it’s just to remind us of what are the facts.


Clerith is endgame is because CA says so.

Cloud and Tifa’s relationship has already revealed itself to be a deeply intimate and romantic one, in Remake AND Rebirth. In the OG, one could argue this was only made explicit from the Lifestream and Highwind onwards. We’ve still got all that to come.

But even without that, Cloud and Aerith had so many chances and opportunities for both characters to affirm something, anything romantic. They didn’t.

Zack isn’t going anywhere.


Ever Crisis is going to continue featuring Aerith prominently. Recent mistranslation issues aside, it isn’t just suddenly going to be the start of the beginning of the end for Cloti, and the start of the push towards Clerith and it being endgame.

As much as I know it’s hard given the context of what it’s like in this fandom, we should try to take the moments, the marketing, as for what it is.


I wish I had something more to say about how to deal and steel oneself against the toxicity and harassment. Hopefully SE’s new policy will help. Hopefully seeing more streamers take the right step and share their work and reactions and experiences will pave the way for others, showing that harassing people into silence won’t work. And from there the attempts at spreading a harmful false narrative won’t hold sway.


Because either way it certainly won’t come Part 3.

Lets hope whatever words they might have lined up ready, they get drowned out in the fireworks from the celebration of Part 3’s arrival, the grand conclusion to the Retrilogy, and a celebration of seeing moments such as the Lifestream, the Highwind, Zack and Aerith’s reunion beautifully and brilliantly brought to life, and in Kitase’s words, delivers an ending that leaves us and the greater fandom feeling happy and satisfied.

 

[Ryeleigh]

I don't actually have much to add because you said everything so comprehensively, but I just wanted to add to this:

Cloud and Tifa can’t be romantic. It can’t be a positive relationship. It has to be twisted into something dark. Tifa has to be villainised.

Cloud has to become an awful, manipulative jerk.

“Tifa deserves better!”

But Aerith, their supposed favourite, the pure, perfect, princess who can do no wrong, is worthy of the affections of a man who jealously kisses another girl he knows has feelings for him.

And they think Cloud and Tifa’s relationship is dark?!

Because this is one of those things I don't get? If you villainize a character and then say that you're totally fine shipping them with another character because X character would never let him/her get away with it, it's like? It's still the same character you're shipping-not-shipping the other characters with? A deadbeat would still be a deadbeat regardless of the person they're with?

"But Cloud's such a deadbeat with Tifa!"

And he wouldn't be a deadbeat with Aerith? C'mon.

I wonder how much of this is just people using characters as re-skinned tropes.

 

[Ryushikaze]

I don't actually have much to add because you said everything so comprehensively, but I just wanted to add to this:

Because this is one of those things I don't get? If you villainize a character and then say that you're totally fine shipping them with another character because X character would never let him/her get away with it, it's like? It's still the same character you're shipping-not-shipping the other characters with? A deadbeat would still be a deadbeat regardless of the person they're with?

"But Cloud's such a deadbeat with Tifa!"

And he wouldn't be a deadbeat with Aerith? C'mon.

I wonder how much of this is just people using characters as re-skinned tropes.

Not even as tropes. People are using these characters as paper dolls they like the appearance of to cast completely different characters onto. Not only is the CA Cloud nothing like narrative Cloud, he's not even the same Cloud moment to moment. He's whatever character is needed to claim victory at any given moment. To your point about being a villain, many CA say "he's only a womanizer if you go the Tifa route" as if Tifa coming to check on Cloud makes him a literal different character than if Barret, Yuffie, Cait or Aerith do it.

 

[Eerie]

@AncientGrim Personally, I entirely agree with you, make no mistake. I know the best is yet to come for us. But a lot are "new players", didn't play the OG, don't know the Compilation outside maybe CC, so it's harder for them to recontextualise I think. You also have to be used to the way this team tells its stories, which is again not something that's necessarily easy to understand. And it doesn't help that theorybros who are everywhere also demean Tifa's role and importance, giving her role to about everyone in the game and not really understanding what the Lifestream sequence is about. CAs have been going at it for a very long time, so long that when the singer of Aerith's song researched what this was about, she thought it was about a CA love song. This leaves marks on the fandom, definitely.

But I just know Nojima is going to clear out the LT, because he cannot stand it anymore (neither he nor Nomura). P3 will reveal true Cloud and I think people are just not ready to see what they're about to see with him. They conveniently forget about ToTP and 2K Gils but these have been written for a purpose and it's easy to see how it will influence the game in p3. I'm just waiting patiently for the PR to begin, and I hope they will do Tifa justice this time around.