I'd like to respond
this post that FFG made at CxA. Obviously that can't be done there, but I think it warranted a response somewhere.
So, FFG. Hi.
What up?
You and I are both known for breeding
teal dears, so expect this post to be much the same. Having read
your most recent teal dear, I wanted to offer a response. I think you have missed the point of the Cloti perspective -- and, perhaps, the original game, Compilation, and creator statements as well.
I'll be responding to your post pretty much line-by-line here, so put on your hiking boots. We're going on a walk.
---
FFG said:
Oorah! :drinks:
FFG said:
They confess that they love each other and always have, even though they didn't know each other at all as kids.
Oo ... rah?
Or they confess that they love each other period -- but while we're on the topic, yes, they pretty much have had a thing since they were kids. Pg. 24 of the Crisis Core Ultimania says that Cloud "secretly fell in love with her":
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v132/Squ...ed/ccuscan1.jpg
The Japanese word I've translated as "secretly" here was "honoka," meaning "to
be seen dimly/faintly," as well as "subtle" or "indistinct."
I'm aware that it's been argued that "honoka" refers to the potency of something, but it does not. A simple
Google search for "honoka means" will give you an array of meanings related to the clarity with which something is perceived, not to its strength.
Further, the Japanese word processor, JWPce quite straightforwardly provides the meaning, "be seen dimly":
http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/5810/honokameans.jpg
Further still, in the original game, we find Cloud's subconscious telling Tifa this when she admits to having thought about Cloud a lot after he left Nibelheim: "Thanks, Tifa. Tell him what you told me, later. He'll probably be so happy." The original Japanese line -- which can be read
here -- had him actually even say, "Thanks, Tifa. Later, tell him. He'll be delighted for sure!" (ありがとう、ティファ。後で、こいつに言ってやって。きっと喜ぶよ
. The word "kitto" (きっと
was used in the Japanese script, meaning "for sure," "certainly" or "udoubtedly."
Why might the adult Cloud be "delighted for sure" to hear that Tifa had been thinking about him as well? Perhaps because he liked her, no?
FFG said:
Tifa, not wanting to die a virgin, propositions Cloud ...
Or perhaps she didn't want to die without showing him how she felt? And perhaps neither did he?
FFG said:
... and they have sex out in plain sight on a group of pointy rocks ...
I see grass in this picture:
http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/6929/pointyrockswhere.jpg
A lot of it.
I also see a small undulation in the ground that is
somewhat pointy, but apparently still comfortable enough to sleep on considering that they do, in fact, sleep on it.
FFG said:
... while their friends watch.
And by "their friends" you mean the people who Cloud had sent away to do their own things for their last night alive? The people who didn't even see them until the next morning, when they saw them asleep?:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v132/Squ...u20highwind.jpg
(Last sentence from the box on the upper-right in the scan above)
"As well, the sight of the two seen by their companions the next morning will lead to an embarassing scene for Tifa, and she blushes greatly."
FFG said:
Later, on the Highwind, their friends tease them about the porno they put on under the Highwind. Tifa is mortified, but Cloud, being used to people watch him have sex on pointy rocks, doesn't even flinch. He leaves Tifa to be teased and says nothing to defend her.
"Defend" would imply that she was under some form of attack. As near as I can tell, she was not.
FFG said:
After the fight with Sephiroth, Cloud finds himself surrounded by Lifestream. He thinks only of another woman he once knew who died (rather than the one he just last night confessed to love) ...
Do you have an Ultimania quote that lends itself to the notion that Cloud was thinking about Aerith then?
FFG said:
... and reaches toward the Lifestream, hoping to see her again.
Or perhaps because her hand appeared there?
FFG said:
He is rewarded by a glimpse of her hand and reaches for it ...
So he reaches toward the Lifestream, hoping to see her again,
and then her hand appears,
and then he reaches for it? Something is amiss in this description of the order of events.
Her hand appears. He reaches for it. Not the other way around.
Her hand didn't appear because he was thinking of her or something if that's what you're going for.
FFG said:
... only to realize that the crater around him is crumbling. He grabs the hand only to discover it is Tifa's hand, and that they are in mortal danger.
He doesn't grab anyone's hand at all, actually. The ground falls out from under Tifa and he catches her instead.
Here's a link to the ending:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4_sw0trdNc
FFG said:
While he and Tifa are being hoisted to safety ...
They were just hanging from a ledge, actually. Link to ending is right above.
FFG said:
... Cloud can only think of this other dead woman and meeting her again in the Promised Land, a place of supreme happiness.
Most people would have thoughts about a dead person only seconds after seeing their hand appear and reach toward them. Especially if they blamed theirself for that person's death and wanted to hear that person say "I forgive you."
And, yes, Cloud was already blaming himself and feeling that he needed atonement. Check out
Case of Tifa, where Cloud is saying he wants forgiveness on the same night that he spoke of wanting to see Aerith again.
FFG said:
Tifa, who he confessed to love just last night, is completely ignored as she clings to him.
Talking to a person counts as completely ignoring them?
FFG said:
During CoT, Cloud moves into the new and improved Seventh Heaven with Barret, Tifa, and Marlene. He makes sure to have his own room, not wanting to share a bed with the woman he confessed to love and has already had sex with once.
He makes sure to have a room that has only ever been identified as an office. Meanwhile, the room where Tifa sleeps has never been depicted visually.
FFG said:
He also fixes up a motorcycle and starts staying gone all the time, leaving his "true love" by herself most days.
::skims through official translation of Case of Tifa that was included with the North American Limited Edition release of Advent Children::
Nope. Doesn't say that anywhere.
Says he often left Midgar to collect provisions -- you know, for their livelihood? -- most frequently in Kalm, and had to rent chocobos and bikes until he got his own bike, which him working on is described as a sight that reassured Tifa that, "We, as a family, are becoming part of this world."
All of which is said to be "several months after opening the bar," which would also be several months after Barret left since he is said to have left "the first week after opening."
Anyway, back to Cloud's bike. The story says, "On the way home from securing provisions, he was often asked to make deliveries to Midgar." When Tifa found out about it, Cloud apologized for doing it without consulting her about it, and Tifa then encouraged him to turn it into an actual business -- which "Cloud was hesitant" to do, but "went along with the suggestion after sleeping on it."
Which, yes, kept him away from home except at night -- while he did his job during the day. Which actually sounds like what most people's jobs do, even if he was gone a few hours longer than most because of the traveling involved.
FFG said:
Later in the story, Tifa's feelings for Cloud begin to change into "those a mother would have".
Actually, it's at the same point in the story, and these feelings are described as "a new emotion" -- not the transformation of existing ones.
Besides which, Tifa's interest is clearly still one of romance throughout the rest of the story, and on into Advent Children as well, what with her pondering whether they're a normal family.
FFG said:
After all, Tifa is a pedophile and dressing up Cloud like a little boy has always been her fantasy. Nothing turns her on like incest.
Well, in that case, I suppose the prior point stands.
Let Tifa have her fetish, and the rest of us can have ours
or share them with Tifa. Live and let live.
FFG said:
One night, Tifa steals into Cloud's room.
An action never described within the story.
FFG said:
He's been treating her so badly that she actually has to ask him if he loves her.
The story also never says he was treating her badly.
FFG said:
Cloud just stares at her and doesn't answer.
Actually, what's said is that, "Cloud opened his eyes. He looked perplexed" -- as one might after being awoken, especially by a question that they weren't able to make out given that they were asleep when it was asked.
The amount of time he spent looking perplexed is also never identified. The very next line is simply, "Hey, Cloud. Do you love Marlene?" It could have been one second or five -- but it was probably one.
FFG said:
Embarrassed, she quickly changes her question, asking him if he loves Marlene. He easily answers 'yes' to that particular question.
An interesting observation. Barret
had been suspecting for quite some time that Cloud had his eye on Marlene. It's nice to have that confirmed.
This is great news for the family dynamic! Tifa and Cloud share pedophiliac tendencies, and if they both have the interest in incest, Cloud's in a position to pretend to be Marlene's daddy or her big brother depending on the day. With Tifa as the mom!
Man, this shit just got kinky as fuck. Looks like I've got some new bedtime reading material.
FFG said:
However, when Tifa invites herself to the dead girl's church and refuses to believe Cloud's idea that Denzel was led to him by that dead girl ...
Hmm:
Official translation of Case of Tifa said:
"And Cloud, you're wrong."
Cloud looked at Tifa with a puzzled expression.
"Aerith didn't bring Denzel to you."
"Right...Just what I thought."
"You're not listening to me. Aerith brought that boy to us.
I suppose if you separate her second line from the third, and then ... no, no your claim still doesn't sound like a reflection of what the story actually shows, where Tifa
reaffirms Cloud's belief that Aerith brought the kid to him, but adds that she brought him to both of them.
Seeing as how, like him, she saw taking care of the kid as redemption:
Official translation of Case of Tifa said:
Denzel was supposed to come here. He was a victim when Sector Seven was destroyed—and we're the reason it's gone. So we need to take responsibility and raise this boy right.
Official translation of Case of Tifa said:
Cloud was clearly deep in thought.
"If you don't want to tell me, don't."
"I can't explain it well..." Cloud searched for the right words. "I didn't fix the problem. I don't think I'll ever fix the problem. I can't make somebody unlose their life."
Tifa nodded.
"But now, maybe I got a chance to save a life that's on the brink. Maybe that's something even I can do."
"Denzel?"
"Yeah."
FFG said:
Cloud leaves and goes to live in the dead girl's church. Knowing that he has a terminal disease, Cloud stays in a place that reminds him of the dead girl rather than remaining close to his "true love" for the time he has left.
Hmm:
Cloud's profile in the FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania; pg. 38 said:
Now running a delivery business while helping out Tifa with the newly opened “Seventh Heaven” bar, Cloud, Tifa, Marlene and Denzel lived together like a family. However, when Cloud contracts Geostigma he disappears. Behind these actions lies feelings of guilt towards his past failure to protect people who were important to him ...
Maybe if I ... no. Nope. No amount of twisting this one around gets it to say he stayed away because of something other than Geostigma and his own guilt. Oh well.
FFG said:
By the time AC rolls around, Cloud is content to die ...
Yeah, remember that scene in the first 10 minutes where he let the Shadow Creepers maul him instead of putting his sword through their faces? Yeah, I don't either.
FFG said:
Apparently, the forgiveness of that dead girl means more to him than the happiness of the woman he loves.
I'm glad you brought this up. I'd forgotten about that subplot where Cloud explained to Tifa at length these two things were mutually exclusive.
"Forgotten," of course, meaning "-- due it to not being present in the work -- never heard."
FFG said:
After beating all the bad guys, Cloud ends up back at the church. His "true love" invites him back to her room with a sexy look. Cloud ignores it ...
So not just talking to a person, but returning their smile now equals "completely ignoring" as well.
I learn so much from the LTD. I really feel I've grown.
FFG said:
In the bonus video, "Calling", Cloud is seen riding out into a flower field where that dead girl is waiting.
You mean he's seen driving down a road that has flower fields beside it, where no one else is visible, and where an apparition that has only ever been described in any official capacity as "nothing with any presence in reality" was shown earlier, but without any indication that Cloud takes notice of it at all.
FFG said:
Squee! :hyper:
FFG said:
Cloud and Tifa are left alone at the Highwind. They discuss their past mistakes and the healing process begins. They come to realize how close they are and, while they didn't know one another as children, they are very close friends now. They agree to support one another and stay in touch no matter what happens in the future.
Tifa tells Cloud that "words aren't the only thing" to let someone know how you feel. Cloud, embarrassed, realizes that Tifa has been there all along, showing him how much she loves him with her actions. However, he doesn't feel the same way. Tifa's smile seems to be one of acceptance as Cloud's silence tells her all she needs to know. Tifa goes to sit next to Cloud, and falls asleep on his shoulder.
Hmm:
FF 20th Anniversary Ultimania File 2: Scenario said:
And when Cloud and Tifa remain behind alone, in their final hours, they disclose that their feelings for each other match.
FFVII Ultimania Omega said:
If Tifa's affection regarding Cloud is high, when the two stay behind at the airship, they will confirm that their feelings of desire/wanting for one another match. This line is said by Tifa at the conversation's end. Immediately after saying it, Tifa forms a striking smile that summarizes everything.
FFVII Ultimania Omega said:
... disclose their mutual feelings for each other ...
FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania said:
... disclose their mutual feelings for each other...
FFVII Ultimania Omega said:
... communicate their feelings to each other ...
FFVII Ultimania Omega said:
... communicate their feelings to each other ...
Crisis Core Ultimania said:
... communicate their feelings to each other ...
FF 20th Anniversary Ultimania File 2: Scenario said:
For the One I Love
Through the long journeys, the love of the protagonists develop. Occasionally
they become separated, but the two’s value to one another gives them the great
strength to overcome whatever crisis may come.
III - The diligent soldier and the meek princess
The love between the soldier and princess of Sasune Castle was divided by social status; Ingus tried to supress his feelings, but Sara would not hide hers.
IV - World just for the two of us
When rescuing Roza, Cecil frankly declares his true feelings. The two reunited, they tightly embrace for all eyes to see.
VI - Result of the chance encounter
The imperial general and the anti-empire organization member -- Celes and Locke's relation to one another is like ships passing in the night; it's a long period before they get to communicate their feelings completely.
VII - Secret date
At the Gold Saucer, Cloud receives an invitation from one of his companions. Who comes around with the invitation is dependent on Cloud's behavior.
VII - The night before the final battle
Thanks to Tifa, Cloud regains himself, and before the final battle with Sephiroth, without using words, he confirms with her that their feelings match.
VIII - Witch Rinoa's knight
Just before she can be sealed due to being a witch, Squall retakes Rinoa. "I don't care that you're a witch" are his words to her, putting her mind at ease.
IX - For the one I must protect
Beatrix becomes the woman to whom Steiner will let no harm befall. For his homeland's protection and for hers, Steiner brandishes his sword.
IX - Guidance on an investigation of life
Zidane left the company of his companions in front of the Iifa Tree. He survived for the sake of going back to "the place I'll return to someday," where the one he loves was waiting for him.
X - Macalania Spring
Yuna is betrayed by the temples she had completely believed in and had made the foundation of her life. Tidus decides to comfort her in this way.
Extra Thread
Scenes involving "love" other than romantic love
In the "FF" series, there's not just the romantic love between men and women; there are various forms of love depicted. In "FFV," there's familial love between Galuf and Krile, as well as the brotherly love between Edgar and Sabin depicted in "FFVI"; and in "FFIX," there's an instance of love between Eiko and Mog that goes beyond race. Also, in "FFVI," there's the scene where Terra recovers her ability to fight and comes to understand the emotion called "love"; when talking about "love," this is a scene that shouldn't be left out.
[Screenshot caption beneath the screenshot of Terra after transforming into her Esper form in the World of Ruin]
During the event where Terra recovers her ability to fight, she regains her power and says "I'll fight to protect the people I love"; she then throws herself back into battle.
No.
FFG said:
The next morning, Tifa gets teased by their friends, who saw Tifa curled up asleep next to Cloud. Tifa, being naturally shy, is embarrassed, especially since their friends don't even know what really happened. Cloud says nothing, not embarrassed that they saw him allowing Tifa to sleep on his shoulder.
Point of interest. Cloud doesn't say anything when he really did boink Tifa, he's an asshole. He says nothing while letting their friends think he did, he's a-okay!
FFG said:
Willing to give it one last try, she works up the courage to ask him if he loves her.
Ah, I see. So the Tifa in Case of Tifa traveled back in time -- and is actually the Tifa we saw in Advent Children who said "I guess that only works for real families" and "Which is it? A memory or us?"
FFG said:
However, when Tifa refuses to accept that Denzel was led to Cloud by Aerith, declaring that Denzel was led to both of them, Cloud clams up.
But didn't she tell him he was wrong about Aerith bringing the kid to him? :cray:
FFG said:
LOL... Okay, I did take a few liberties with the CloTi one ...
No worries, it gets the message across as effectively as the theatrical release of "I Am Legend" got that story's idea across.
FFG said:
... but it was fun. I mean, their ideas just do not add up! Do you see how their interpretation doesn't make any sense when you take the rest of the story into account?
Thank you for telling us what we really think.
FFG said:
Now, take the ClAeris perspective into account. See how it simply flows better with the storyline and just makes more sense?
::looks at storyline of original game, all Compilation titles, creator commentary and Ultimania statements::
:lmao:
Which is roundabout speak popularized in the LTD for "No. No, I do not."
Good talk.
