LTD, round 3: This time, we settle it with Jello Wrestling

[Makoeyes987]

Exactly. How much more fucked up could he have been if Tifa would have nudged him in the direction of what really happened? He was reading her mind and her memories at that moment to build his illusion, ergo his illusion was not complete at that time. She could have influenced it.

Fucked up enough to not even be able to function, regardless of whether or not it was based on the truth or not? Again, if Cloud's false persona and lie were confronted right then, he'd have no other reality or sense of self to fall back on. He'd go back to being mentally shattered. If Tifa had confronted him about the truth right there and proved his ideal persona wrong, he'd be left broken. There wouldn't be any lifestream or magical means to get into Cloud's mind to help him find the truth within his broken mind. He'd just end up like all the other Sephiroth copies who had no idea who they were.

 

[Ryushikaze]

I agree with Drake on this one. Tifa's reserved to the point of it being a problem a lot of times.

A lot of times? Only in Cloud's ID, in which being blunt would have been a problem too.

It can be when it gets in the way. I mean if she had just confronted Cloud about about stuff he was remembering from the Nibelheim incident instead of just feeling unsure about herself and they had talked that out instead, there's a chance Cloud wouldn't have gone so nuts.

And a chance he would have gone insane too.

AND NO I'M NOT BLAMING TIFA SO STFU

No, but you do seem to be mistaking the conditions of Coud's identity disorder.

Just saying in that case it became a weakness and a problem.

But confronting him with it is ALSO a problem. Prodding him is the safest she can do, really.

And then he remembers eventually doesn't he?

Only after having a total breakdown.

My bad. I read somewhere where it was supposed to be a year. My point is, two months or two years, Cloud managed on his own for a while, in which time he needed to eat and find shelter.

A time which was probably little more than a day or so.

My logic shows that Tifa had all the kids in the neighborhood that wanted to play with her, and excluded Cloud. They blamed Cloud for her going into the mountains and getting herself injured.

Your logic is wrong. Cloud excluded himself even as he wanted in. Cloud was a stupid kid in that respect.

Aerith on the other hand, had to endure a young life growing up in a slum. She knew what kind of place the honeybee inn was - doesn't that tell you anything?

Not really. She's 22. You telling me you didn't know what a brothel was by 22? There's different ways to be sheltered.
And she lived in the slums, but she was loved by pretty much everyone there, had her adoptive mother, and a nice house.

Aerith's mother was seen as a thing. Aerith was persued by the Shinra her entire life, and when they caught her, they treated her the same way as her mother, and tried to breed her with an animal. They treated her as less than human. To me, that counts as being persecuted.

ShinRa is not a singular entity. The Turks 'pursuing' her were giving only the appearance of taking her in until their hand was forced.
Hojo considers everything 'a thing'

She also hears dead people and is actively pursued by the government. I wouldn't really call that sheltered.

Except she's NOT 'actively pursued.' The turks aren't trying to catch her. The opposite, really. They're even under orders.

Looneymoon's entire post was actually what I was pretty much coming in here to say. I completely agree, and that's honestly how I feel on the whole matter. I felt like Tifa and Aerith almost played the foil for each other; one was strong physically, the other strong emotionally.

I think that's oversimplifying things considerably. Both women have their emotional strengths and weaknesses.

I'm curious; what was she supposed to do, by your logic? Cloud beat the shit out of her, she couldn't just stay with the party.

Ask Tifa, Barret, Cid, Vincent, Yuffie, or Red (Hell, Cait Sith) for backup.

 

[Fighter]

Looneymoon's entire post was actually what I was pretty much coming in here to say. I completely agree, and that's honestly how I feel on the whole matter. I felt like Tifa and Aerith almost played the foil for each other; one was strong physically, the other strong emotionally.

If "forthright" and "demure" is your yardstick for emotional strength. Because that's how they played foil for each other.

I'm curious; what was she supposed to do, by your logic? Cloud beat the shit out of her, she couldn't just stay with the party.

I was answering a silly comment with a silly reply.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

A lot of times? Only in Cloud's ID, in which being blunt would have been a problem too.

I say "a lot of times" because of:

1) Giving Sephiroth the Black Materia the first time
2) Beating the shit out of Aerith
3) Almost killing Aerith himself at the Ancients' city
4) Giving Sephiroth the Black Materia again

I don't disagree that telling him, "Okay, you know what? You're off your fucking rocker" would have been a bad choice, but it's not inconceivable that things might have played out differently with her offering her own recollection of events and comparing notes, so to speak.

In other words, not accusing him outright of being wrong, but saying, "You know, honestly, I don't remember it like that. This is what I remember. Help me figure out what I'm getting wrong."

Obviously, of course, it's not her fault, as it was a shitty situation and you can't prevent what you can't predict. For that matter, none of us know that the way she did it didn't lead to the best possible outcome. I'm just saying that it's not entirely unreasonable to suggest that things might have gone differently at critical moments otherwise.

In any event, in the end, the world was saved and Sephiroth was beaten. Sounds like victory.

 

[Isabella]

Not so fast. We haven't pinned global warming and the global recession on Tifa yet. Try harder, folks.

 

[Fighter]

But her boobs already ooze geostigma. It's all her fault.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

Wow, I had a lot to catch up on. So, apparently, Aerith is the be-all-end-all in emotional strength, whereas Tifa needs to chin up and tell-it-like-it-is to someone she immediately recognizes is in need of help? Ooookay.

If Hojo was such a fucking nightmare for Aerith WHY does she not recognize him--and hell, for that matter, why does he not her. "Aerith!" "Oh, is that her name?" Has he had sooooo many Cetra to experiment on that he's forgotten their names? Or maybe his focus was Ilfana and not the wee one--who as far as we know, at the time--showed no signs of having inherited her mother's powers. Just sayin'... Something seemks a bit frikkin' odd there.

And while Aerith watched her mother die in the train yard--presumably from injuries--we have no idea how Tifa's mother died. Was it a long, grueling illness? A sudden brain aneurysm? What? What we do know, is that it affected Tifa so much that she marched her 8 year old ass up Mt. Nibel to where it was 'fabled' you could meet the dead (or something like that) and on that journey she falls and is COMATOSE for 2 weeks. Lingering on life and death probably has an affect on a person, yeah?

Then comes the grand teen years where you get to smell the skin of your neighbors charring off and watch your Daddy's blood stain the ground. Yes, you confront the fucking madman slaughtering your town--especially if your trained/brash/pissed/devastated. What should she have done? Turned tail and ran? Who was she gonna get for help? the entire fucking village was a morbid s'more...

Then, after being sliced open and tossed away like unwanted roadkill, she wakes alone in Midgar...having to fend for herself and find a way to survive at the ripe old age of 15...

Yeah, she was so dependent on people...

Meanwhile, Aerith is...oh, right, dating a SOLDIER First Class, wearing nice, clean clothes, making friends with the Turks, and having Zack build her multiple flower carts (to sell flowers that weren't even her idea to sell...).

Elmyra is a constant in her life. A parent that loves her.

Her home is a happy one.

Why do we not want that for her? It doesn't make her weak to not come from a shitload of disfunction. Aerith is a trooper--emotionally strong, and determined. Not saying otherwise, but the comparing of adversities is ridiculous. Yes, Aerith is a speshul snowflake that ShinRa is 'interested' in. But even they aren't sure she can manifest her Cetra powers, and therefore, aren't 'pursuing her'. (well, maybe Tseng is, but that's for her flowers...)

And as for Tifa's shyness--What? The ONLY person Tifa is 'reserved and demure' around is CLOUD. You know, the guy she was waiting for back in Nibleheim...the guy that when she sees again is wacked out and exhibiting some bizarre behaviors....

She goes to Corneo's on her own--faces down Barret on more than one occasion--is well liked by the other members of AVALANCHE and their neighbors in Sector 7. She is not some wallflower that is too shy to say how she feels--except with ONE person. And the reasons for that don't make her 'weak' or some sort of 'accomplice' to Cloud's insanity. She cares for someone enough to not want to hurt them. How dare she?!? Bitch.

There is no comparison between them, because they don't come from any similar set of circumstances. Narratively is one better than the other? Not so much. Personally? Aerith is a shallow twat that should have been run through a few more times for the lulz... but hey, doesn't mean I can't recognize her strengths and attributes.

 

[Madame Mayor]

This is starting to sound like the clerii "how many eggs do we have in our basket compared to you guys" arguments. They are both emotionally strong and weak in different aspects, like a normal human being.

The independant thing is a bit more black and white and I'd say Tifa shows more independance than Aerith, but more because she has to. Aerith has her foster mother and I don't see a reason why she would move out. Whereas Tifa needs to become completely independant rather quickly, and she shows she's able to do that and more.

(well, maybe Tseng is, but that's for her flowers...)

ilu

 

[Winter]

If Hojo was such a fucking nightmare for Aerith WHY does she not recognize him--and hell, for that matter, why does he not her. "Aerith!" "Oh, is that her name?" Has he had sooooo many Cetra to experiment on that he's forgotten their names? Or maybe his focus was Ilfana and not the wee one--who as far as we know, at the time--showed no signs of having inherited her mother's powers. Just sayin'... Something seemks a bit frikkin' odd there.

Yeah, Aerith is so much better off since she got to watch her mother die slowly while strange men stuck needles in her. Besides, laboratories are hard to run. I'm pretty sure Hojo had at LEAST a couple of assistants.

He didn't even CALL her Aerith when she was in his lab; why the hell would he? She was an EXPERIMENT to him, not a friend or a human being.

Meanwhile, Aerith is...oh, right, dating a SOLDIER First Class, wearing nice, clean clothes, making friends with the Turks, and having Zack build her multiple flower carts (to sell flowers that weren't even her idea to sell...).

Elmyra is a constant in her life. A parent that loves her.

Her home is a happy one.

Which is why she's so incredibly happy and bouncy ALL THE TIME. Come on, even in Crisis Core you can sense her underlying sadness; she deals with death every single day.

Seriously, you really worked hard to make sure every aspect of Aerith's life made her seem like a princess just because YOU don't like her. There's some stuff in there that's not even close to logical given the information the canon has given us.

Like, for instance, no Aerith's clothes were NOT clean and neat, she lived in the damn slums. Where is the logic there? Just because everyone's clothes are clean in the game doesn't mean that this overrides the narrative that says multiple times that people in the slums are often dirty and poor. Even Dezel, in Case of Denzel I believe, talks with his parents about how the people under the plate are dirty and eat rats.

I'm pretty sure Aerith wasn't living in the lap of luxury.

 

[Zee]

Didn't Tifa say something along the lines of, "If it was Aeris, she would have just come out and said it."

O U TIFA, BASHING YOURSELF. DON'T YOU REALIZE THAT'S EXACTLY THE SAME AS SAYING YOU'RE EMOTIONALLY DEPENDENT AND WEAK WILLED?

If Hojo was such a fucking nightmare for Aerith WHY does she not recognize him-

lol what what, he may not have directly experimented on her (lab assistant, anyone?) and second of all doesn't she point him out on the beach? It's either her or Tifa, I remember because if you choose to ignore him and check out the chick in the bikini you get in trouble.

Elmyra is a constant in her life. A parent that loves her.

Her home is a happy one.

It's actually stated (I think the Japanese version of the game guide) says she has a strained relationship with her foster mother. I'm not saying they didn't love each other, but you're not exactly taking into account her stepmom probably wasn't thrilled with government agents showing up at her house, nor was she hopping for joy at her nine year old adopted daughter talking to dead people and going on about how her husband returned to the planet. Aeris also tends to come and go as she pleases and it seems like she spends more time at the church than she does at her own house.

Then there is that whole thing about being able to still hear her dead mother, but that's a whooole other tangent.

Why do we not want that for her? It doesn't make her weak to not come from a shitload of disfunction.

It doesn't, but not recognizing some of the dysfunction that is actually there is to ignore certain aspects of her character. For example, why she is so secretive and emotionally distant from people. Or why she is socially awkward -- not in the quiet loner type of way, but more in the I'm so excited to be around people that I don't realize I just stuck my foot in my mouth. Oh well, LET'S GO PLAY GAMES..

Yes, Aeris is brave, opinionated, and strong emotionally in the sense that she is one of the most self assured people in the group, but she has these faults that are completely overlooked because she's wearing pink and seemingly always happy.

Tifa is a total smartass (something that's more apparent in the first game than the movie) but the reason why people say she is not emotionally as strong as Aeris is because she is so unsure of herself. This isn't a bad thing, and while it might seem like an oversimplification it's not inaccurate (people just hear the word "weak" and bristle without actually thinking about it in context). She's strong in the sense that she keeps it together under pressure, but her biggest character flaw is her inability to speak up. This is why the Lifestream scene is just a big climatic turn for both characters because she finally gets the guts to say, "Hey, you're wrong."

I know there's the argument of, "But if she's told him earlier, he'd be more messed up!" That may be true, but we're all looking at it from an outside perspective (and one that's been skewed by several replays through the story).

I mean really, I like to ramble about both girls 'cause I love 'em, but the Tifa & Aeris discussion always turns into a giant pissing contest about who's the most tortured. Seriously, neither one of them had a great childhood. I'm pretty sure if Aeris was like, "Hey, I'll swap childhood experimentation and dead voices for being orphaned and almost sliced in half!" Tifa would be like wtf no.

 

[crack]

Meanwhile, Aerith is...oh, right, dating a SOLDIER First Class, wearing nice, clean clothes, making friends with the Turks, and having Zack build her multiple flower carts (to sell flowers that weren't even her idea to sell...).

Just because she was happy and fortunate at one point in her life doesn't mean she always was.

Tifa is a total smartass (something that's more apparent in the first game than the movie) but the reason why people say she is not emotionally as strong as Aeris is because she is so unsure of herself. This isn't a bad thing, and while it might seem like an oversimplification it's not inaccurate (people just hear the word "weak" and bristle without actually thinking about it in context). She's strong in the sense that she keeps it together under pressure, but her biggest character flaw is her inability to speak up. This is why the Lifestream scene is just a big climatic turn for both characters because she finally gets the guts to say, "Hey, you're wrong."

Agreed, and I don't necessarily think that this makes Tifa a bad character as well, because she does tend to think of others before herself, and while I don't think she's a smartass, she's not as outspoken as Aerith is, and more reserved and cautious about what she says. That ass whopping speech she gave to Cloud was very much needed though because he needed to stop bitching like a little baby. Of course, Aerith's flaw can also be seen as being too outspoken for her own good. But that doesn't make one character worse than the other.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Didn't Tifa say something along the lines of, "If it was Aeris, she would have just come out and said it."

O U TIFA, BASHING YOURSELF. DON'T YOU REALIZE THAT'S EXACTLY THE SAME AS SAYING YOU'RE EMOTIONALLY DEPENDENT AND WEAK WILLED?

I realize this is a mocking of an argument, but it's also a strawman.
LV did say Aerith was stronger and more independent compared to Tifa. OWD is not saying that LV said Tifa was weak or overly dependent, she just wants to know how LV arrived at the conclusion that Aerith was 'moreso' on those counts.

lol what what, he may not have directly experimented on her (lab assistant, anyone?) and second of all doesn't she point him out on the beach? It's either her or Tifa, I remember because if you choose to ignore him and check out the chick in the bikini you get in trouble.

Actually, anyone can point out Hojo.
Not that anyone would have trouble pointing him out after the incidents in ShinRa tower during the game.

It's actually stated (I think the Japanese version of the game guide) says she has a strained relationship with her foster mother. I'm not saying they didn't love each other, but you're not exactly taking into account her stepmom probably wasn't thrilled with government agents showing up at her house, nor was she hopping for joy at her nine year old adopted daughter talking to dead people and going on about how her husband returned to the planet. Aeris also tends to come and go as she pleases and it seems like she spends more time at the church than she does at her own house.

Could you be more specific? Where does it say any of this, because it's entirely news to me.

Then there is that whole thing about being able to still hear her dead mother, but that's a whooole other tangent.

Which might make her seem wierd, IF she tells people about it.

It doesn't, but not recognizing some of the dysfunction that is actually there is to ignore certain aspects of her character. For example, why she is so secretive and emotionally distant from people. Or why she is socially awkward -- not in the quiet loner type of way, but more in the I'm so excited to be around people that I don't realize I just stuck my foot in my mouth. Oh well, LET'S GO PLAY GAMES..

The thing is, though, even with some of that awkwardness, she's still extremely well liked by the people of Sec 5. They all know and like her, and threaten Zack to treat her right, for example.

Yes, Aeris is brave, opinionated, and strong emotionally in the sense that she is one of the most self assured people in the group, but she has these faults that are completely overlooked because she's wearing pink and seemingly always happy.

One of those being that she's not actually as self assured as she lets on.

Tifa is a total smartass (something that's more apparent in the first game than the movie) but the reason why people say she is not emotionally as strong as Aeris is because she is so unsure of herself. This isn't a bad thing, and while it might seem like an oversimplification it's not inaccurate (people just hear the word "weak" and bristle without actually thinking about it in context). She's strong in the sense that she keeps it together under pressure, but her biggest character flaw is her inability to speak up. This is why the Lifestream scene is just a big climatic turn for both characters because she finally gets the guts to say, "Hey, you're wrong."

'Total smartass' is definitely an exaggeration- and Aerith has her own smartass moments, too, though I will agree.
The thing is, Aerith and Tifa have largely the same flaws and insecurities, and deal with them in different ways. Aerith barrels headlong into them, Tifa tries to make she gets it right before making a move. Both approaches have their ups and downs.

I know there's the argument of, "But if she's told him earlier, he'd be more messed up!" That may be true, but we're all looking at it from an outside perspective (and one that's been skewed by several replays through the story).

Even from a single perspective, from a psychological perspective, it's generally better to hold back with dissasociative disorders and multiple personalities. Being overly confrontive is just a bad plan.

I mean really, I like to ramble about both girls 'cause I love 'em, but the Tifa & Aeris discussion always turns into a giant pissing contest about who's the most tortured. Seriously, neither one of them had a great childhood. I'm pretty sure if Aeris was like, "Hey, I'll swap childhood experimentation and dead voices for being orphaned and almost sliced in half!" Tifa would be like wtf no.

I'm pretty sure Tifa would actually be extremely sympathetic and angry on Aerith's behalf, same as Aerith would be if Tifa relayed her history.

 

[Zee]

lol, maybe it's just me, but Tifa makes the most smartass remarks out of anyone in the game. I love her for it.

"You sure are messed up, Cloud!"
"Cloud, your hair looks like a chocobo."
"Will you quit acting like a retard and climb?!"

etc etc.

Which might make her seem wierd, IF she tells people about it.

Well she does, in FF7. But it's not about making her weird, it's more about the strain on her relationship with her stepmom (she can hear voices in the church better, and this is going into headcanon territory, but I got the sense that running off to listen to your dead mom and ignoring the living one can kiiiinda cause tension in the relationship.)

The thing is, though, even with some of that awkwardness, she's still extremely well liked by the people of Sec 5. They all know and like her, and threaten Zack to treat her right, for example.

This is one of 8957823490532475 problems I have with retconning. In FF7 it's made quite clear she has no friends. She even says the person who knows her best is Tseng, which is really fucking pathetic.

I'm pretty sure Tifa would actually be extremely sympathetic and angry on Aerith's behalf, same as Aerith would be if Tifa relayed her history.

....

The love triangle thread, where your sense of humor goes to die.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

[/COLOR]
Yeah, Aerith is so much better off since she got to watch her mother die slowly while strange men stuck needles in her. Besides, laboratories are hard to run. I'm pretty sure Hojo had at LEAST a couple of assistants.

He didn't even CALL her Aerith when she was in his lab; why the hell would he? She was an EXPERIMENT to him, not a friend or a human being.

You try naming all the rats in a lab. That shit gets tiring after a while, and you can only have so many Mrs. Frisbys.

But yeah, an experiment is an experiment. You never try to humanize any organisms you're working with, that'd be pointless and bias you as a scientist. Probably even worse if you're a human experiment.

btw I love Zee's and LV's posts. *shunned*

 

[Loxetta]

This is one of 8957823490532475 problems I have with retconning. In FF7 it's made quite clear she has no friends. She even says the person who knows her best is Tseng, which is really fucking pathetic.

THIS. Good god, this thing being said that Aerith having friends and knowing a lot of people in the slums? Sure, maybe acquaintances, but the guy that knows her best is her stalker-with-a-crush.

But she's not lonely. Nope.

 

[Tennyo]

lol, maybe it's just me, but Tifa makes the most smartass remarks out of anyone in the game. I love her for it.

"You sure are messed up, Cloud!"
"Cloud, your hair looks like a chocobo."
"Will you quit acting like a retard and climb?!"

Wait, Tifa called someone a retard? I missed this?

This is one of 8957823490532475 problems I have with retconning. In FF7 it's made quite clear she has no friends. She even says the person who knows her best is Tseng, which is really fucking pathetic.

I never got this impression, at least not 100%. Aerith may have known people, and people knew her, and they all got along fairly well, but did anyone really know her know her? Probably not. Aerith may have been the pretty girl on the block that everyone knew, yet she was probably also the mysterious girl on the black that no one knew all that well. She had no one to confide in because she was afraid to let her secret out. This is why Tseng knows her best. He's always been there, as I'm sure most people came and went in the slums, and he knows her secret despite her denying it.

You make it sound like Aerith never interacted with anyone. Is it really that odd to think she'd be on friendly terms with the people in the neighborhood without spilling all her deepest darkest secrets to them?

THIS. Good god, this thing being said that Aerith having friends and knowing a lot of people in the slums? Sure, maybe acquaintances, but the guy that knows her best is her stalker-with-a-crush.

But she's not lonely. Nope.

This is a bit closer how I view it. Sure Aerith knew people, but she didn't have anyone to connect with on a huge friendship level. Also, having special powers nobody knows about and also being the last of her kind? That would make anyone feel lonely.

 

[Ryushikaze]

lol, maybe it's just me, but Tifa makes the most smartass remarks out of anyone in the game. I love her for it.

"You sure are messed up, Cloud!"
"Cloud, your hair looks like a chocobo."
"Will you quit acting like a retard and climb?!"

etc etc.

I don't see one and two as smartass, and as for three, honestly, Barret was acting very stupid there. Calling a spade a spade and all.

Well she does, in FF7. But it's not about making her weird, it's more about the strain on her relationship with her stepmom (she can hear voices in the church better, and this is going into headcanon territory, but I got the sense that running off to listen to your dead mom and ignoring the living one can kiiiinda cause tension in the relationship.)

But nothing really suggests that it did. Where are you getting these 'headcanon' ideas from? You mentioned a Japanese source that mentioned it. Do you have a name for this source?

This is one of 8957823490532475 problems I have with retconning. In FF7 it's made quite clear she has no friends. She even says the person who knows her best is Tseng, which is really fucking pathetic.

I always took that not to mean 'I have no friends' but 'I have no one who really understands me, even though I'm well liked' Which is a different angst entirely.
Aerith's situation in FF7 is ironically like that of Cloud in AC. Water water everywhere and not a drop to drink. All sorts of people that could solve her angst, if only she'd let them, only she won't, because she's worried of what letting them might do.

Also, that 'stalker with a crush' is still the same person she's known for the vast majority of her life and moreover knows the secret she doesn't want to tell many people, so that probably does explain why she feels he knows her best.

....

The love triangle thread, where your sense of humor goes to die.

I figured you were being sarcastic, Zee, but it did bring up a point I felt like addressing, even if it only brought it up incidentally.
That said, Poe's law.

 

[Madame Mayor]

This is one of 8957823490532475 problems I have with retconning. In FF7 it's made quite clear she has no friends. She even says the person who knows her best is Tseng, which is really fucking pathetic.

...Tseng's with our enemy, the Turks, but I've known him since we were little... There's not a lot of people I can say that about. In fact, there are probably only a handful of people in the world who really know me.

I don't really find this that unusual though. How many people can truly say more than a handful of people REALLY know them? However, Tseng doesn't know her best, he's just one of the people who knows who she really is, and this is her reason for feeling the way she does when he gets hurt even though he's been trying to capture her.

lol I know this coming from me seems weird but I know where my canon ends and my shipping begins.

 

[looneymoon]

Yes, Aeris is brave, opinionated, and strong emotionally in the sense that she is one of the most self assured people in the group, but she has these faults that are completely overlooked because she's wearing pink and seemingly always happy.

Tifa is a total smartass (something that's more apparent in the first game than the movie) but the reason why people say she is not emotionally as strong as Aeris is because she is so unsure of herself. This isn't a bad thing, and while it might seem like an oversimplification it's not inaccurate (people just hear the word "weak" and bristle without actually thinking about it in context). She's strong in the sense that she keeps it together under pressure, but her biggest character flaw is her inability to speak up. This is why the Lifestream scene is just a big climatic turn for both characters because she finally gets the guts to say, "Hey, you're wrong."

qft.

Also, on Tifa's dependancy on Cloud. I think her dedication to Cloud is probably one of her most admirable traits, but it often comes at the expence of her own well being. That's where I think people may percieve some sort of character derailment in a sense. I'd like to add that it may just a product of being young, as well. She's so in love with this man that nothing else matters. This ends up displaying a huge vulnerability in character who is usually so upbeat. For a character like this, the emotional turmoil she faces because of a man can be a little unnerving. From my first impressions of her, it didn't seem like she was the type who would let that sort of thing get her down. I can understand how people be annoyed by this characterization, especially if they were expecting an super confident bamf-like character from her. I personally do not have a problem with it, it makes her more interesting from the typical action girl (warning: TVtropes link).

The thing is, what I presume what LV was trying to say is that we do not see this side of Tifa in AC. When Cloud goes all wonky, she keeps it very together. She's still is supportive of Cloud, but she doesn't lose her composure. We don't see the same self sacrificing Tifa in AC - she has herself to worry about, and more importantly her kids.

 

[Zee]

Heavy sarcasm borderline rudeness is usually the sign of the smartass remark. If you forgot, she usually makes lines like that at Cloud's another's expense. But I'm not about to get into an argument about how much of a smartass she may or not be.

Anyway, I'll dig around for where I found that profile quote, but my sources are quite outdated--half of the ff7 sites I used to frequent aren't around anymore. If I can't find it then disregard that, I suck cocks, etc etc.

I always took that not to mean 'I have no friends' but 'I have no one who really understands me, even though I'm well liked' Which is a different angst entirely.

You make it sound like Aerith never interacted with anyone. Is it really that odd to think she'd be on friendly terms with the people in the neighborhood without spilling all her deepest darkest secrets to them?

Not at all; sure, she'd have to be friendly with people (that wouldn't hurt sales, and it's not like she's purposely anti social) but FF7 paints quite a different picture. She says she's used to danger and being chased all her life, and she's usually by herself in the church-- there's no hint in that game she's buddies with anyone in sector 5. Later on, we have that quote about Tseng coupled with her admission of loneliness at Cosmo Canyon. imo the depiction of her in Crisis Core does not really match up with the woman we meet up in ff7 who is friendless and lonely.

Quite frankly there's a lot of issues I have with CC's characterization of Aeris. :\

 

[crack]

Aerith's situation in FF7 is ironically like that of Cloud in AC. Water water everywhere and not a drop to drink. All sorts of people that could solve her angst, if only she'd let them, only she won't, because she's worried of what letting them might do.

The difference though is that Cloud had Tifa and his close friends to reach out to and get help, but he never attempted to make contact because he was fearful what problems would arise; but for Tifa and the rest of AVALANCHE to judge him and mock him based on his problems is highly unlikely and OOC. On the other hand, Aerith actually had the risk of either receiving the help that she needed, or being considered mentally ill.

 

[Raquelborn]

Tifa's "if I ignore it enough hopefully it will go away" attitude.

I don't think this is Tifa's attitude at all. Sure, she pussyfoots a lot but it's because she tries to say the best thing possible for the situation and the esteem of anyone else involved. In the case of Red, it was much more sensitive to be positive and upbeat, even if it was forced, for his sake. Her judgement there actually shows strength of character, good emotional competence and while it was an indirect way of dealing with the problem, it certainly wasn't ignoring it.

Not to mention that plotwise, Aeris has a more independant arc while Tifa's entire character is basically dedicated to Cloud. While this does not make her a "lesser woman" in any regard, I can see how this may cloud some people's view of her (pun totally unintended). IMO AC!Tifa was a much more independant character than FF7!Tifa.

I don't disagree but I will add that every time we've seen her except for when she's with Cloud she's shown a strong independent streak. And really, if Cloud had shown up with a properly formed mind she wouldn't have been nearly as worried about him and therefore as dedicated.

lol, maybe it's just me, but Tifa makes the most smartass remarks out of anyone in the game. I love her for it.

"You sure are messed up, Cloud!"
"Cloud, your hair looks like a chocobo."
"Will you quit acting like a retard and climb?!"

She actually says that? Wow. I don't remember that one. I suddenly like her a whole lot more.
​

 

[Fairheartstrife]

[/COLOR]
Yeah, Aerith is so much better off since she got to watch her mother die slowly while strange men stuck needles in her. Besides, laboratories are hard to run. I'm pretty sure Hojo had at LEAST a couple of assistants.

Did I miss a point in the game where we see Ilfana being tortured with Aerith as witness? Because if I did, please fill me in as to where.

Hojo let his assistants deal with the Cetra? His life's frikkin' work--and he passes it to assistants? Yeah...Okay. Not to mention if he didn't know her by 'name' at the very least she would be sporting a frikkin' number if she was one of his precious experiments.

He didn't even CALL her Aerith when she was in his lab; why the hell would he? She was an EXPERIMENT to him, not a friend or a human being.

No one is to Hojo. Yet he took the time to name Red 13.

Which is why she's so incredibly happy and bouncy ALL THE TIME. Come on, even in Crisis Core you can sense her underlying sadness; she deals with death every single day.

No one is bouncy all the time--and I never said she was. I said she didn't come from a shit-pile of tortured dysfunction. Was she normal? Nope. Stable? More so than most people beneath the plate. Happy? A lot of the time, yes. These, again, are not bad things. She has coping skills, and uses them. She also sits down in a pool of denial when it suits her. Flaws be flaws.

Seriously, you really worked hard to make sure every aspect of Aerith's life made her seem like a princess just because YOU don't like her. There's some stuff in there that's not even close to logical given the information the canon has given us.

No hard work on my part at all. She's not a princess. I never even came close to implying that she was. I stated that she wasn't destitute or sleeping in filthy rags in a gutter like MANY of the beneath the plate dwellers. If you're upset because I don't like her, then I'm sorry you're that vested in a fictional character. **shrug** She ain't my cup of tea--but I don't actively dislike her either. Canon tells us that Aerith has a complicated life--for sure--but not an unhappy one.

Like, for instance, no Aerith's clothes were NOT clean and neat, she lived in the damn slums. Where is the logic there? Just because everyone's clothes are clean in the game doesn't mean that this overrides the narrative that says multiple times that people in the slums are often dirty and poor. Even Dezel, in Case of Denzel I believe, talks with his parents about how the people under the plate are dirty and eat rats.

Did I play a different game? Because, yeah, she was clean and neat complete with curled ringlets and pretty boots. I never saw her eat rats either--and also in CoD another kid corrects Denzel's error in that thinking. Bad example.

I'm pretty sure Aerith wasn't living in the lap of luxury.

And I never--repeat, never-- said she was. I said she wasn't a miserable ball of fucked up issues. Sorry if you'd rather perceive her as tortured wreck with a sunshine facade. **shrug** No skin off my back.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

She actually says that? Wow. I don't remember that one. I suddenly like her a whole lot more.

First one is when he's telling his story in Kalm. Second is when you find the chocobos on the way to North Corel (I think?) and third is when you try and bust Aerith out of the Shinra building.

 

[OneWingedDemon]

Shinra didn't even actively pursue her until the start of FFVII.

Amen.

Sometimes I think people have been reading too much fanfic in which Aeris is kept in a tube and experimented on, while she hears and sees dead people in various states of decomposition walking through the lonely, clinical hallways of Shinra. After this, she lives in extreme poverty while on the run from Shinra, using her superior strength and stealth to evade assassins.

Assassins that are considerate enough to not even step on her flowers. I'm just sayin'