LTD, round 3: This time, we settle it with Jello Wrestling

[Ryushikaze]

Are we seriously trying to argue that Hojo wasn't a batshit crazy motherfucker?

He put cells and chemicals in he and Ifalna's unborn baby,

Lucrecia. Not Ilfana. Probably just a 'whoops, wrong name', but twould be remiss not to correct.

treated her like shit, turned Vincent into a monster, tried to breed Nanaki and Aerith, left Zack and Cloud in test tubes for years, etc.

Oh, no, he's totally crapsack loco, but...

What the hell would ever suggest that Ifalna and Aerith's time there was anything but an absolute nightmare?

The thing is, I doubt he actually payed them any attention. Hojo is notorious for his short attention span and his fixation on Sephiroth. While I doubt their time their was good, I actually have trouble seeing Hojo having the attention or focus to make their lives 'hellish.'

 

[crack]

**sigh** There were NOT 12 other red furballs. Hojo gave his experiments numbers--yes. Not to 'tell them apart' but to distinguish what experiments they belonged to. This much is fact. It is also fact that Nanaki was the last of his kind. He comments on his number in game and it isn't "oh, it's because there were 20 of my kind and Hojo couldn't tell us apart..."

... I know he named Nanaki Red XIII because there were other experiments he had, so he had to distinguish them. But wheny you said this:

No one is to Hojo. Yet he took the time to name Red 13.

You make it sound as though he put consideration into naming him like someone would do to their newly bought puppy.

Hojo gives his experiments numbers.

Aerith's lack of number refutes the claim she was experimented on as a child.

Aerith isn't an animal though, she really didn't need a 'number,' being the last of her kind.

 

[Ryushikaze]

I thought it was a Tifa way of saying "Hey, you look like its mother and you just robbed from it, you dick."

But in a nicer playful tone.

She says it even when you don't take it, IIRC.

Thanks for letting us know you never played the game.
Aeris didn't need a number--she and her mother were the last of her kind, known only to Hojo as Ancients. Numbers were for the clones only. Aeris' mother died due to heavy experimentation AND I CANNOT FUCKING BELIEVE I HAVE TO EXPLAIN THIS

Actually, Hojo numbers all his experiments somehow. It's not just the clones, he has some arcane numbering scheme only he recognizes.

 

[Zee]

Are people suggesting Hojo had two prime research subjects and just, what exactly? Got bored and wasted millions of funded government research to wank off to Sephiroth?

I actually have trouble seeing Hojo having the attention or focus to make their lives 'hellish.'

I suppose getting kidnapped, raised in a lab, having you and your mother experimented on doesn't count as hellish.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Are people suggesting Hojo had two prime research subjects and just, what exactly? Got bored and wasted millions of funded government research to wank off to Sephiroth?

He did it with the clones. He just left mid experiment with Zack and Cloud and left someone to handle that for four years.
He did it mid FF7 when he dicked off to Costa del Sol.

I suppose getting kidnapped, raised in a lab, having you and your mother experimented on doesn't count as hellish.

Not as hellish as is being suggested. Though this brings up a curious point- if you are raised in hell, do you know it's hell, as it's the only thing you've ever known?

 

[OneWingedDemon]

This is what is said about Aeris' childhood:

— Midgar
It’s the place where Aerith spent her childhood under surveillance by ShinRa, and the place where she leads her poor but free, happy life in the Slums– the place where lies her various memories.

Also..

Aeris' mother died due to heavy experimentation

I thought it was wounds sustained from their actual escape? is this more new info?

 

[Fairheartstrife]

Where is this 'raised in a lab" shit coming from? She was found at icicle inn as a child and escaped with her mother--still as a child.... Yes, she was captured, yes it sucked balls, sure. But anyone know how long she was actually there?

the place where she leads her poor but free, happy life in the Slums– the place where lies her various memories.

More fucking lies! Aerith was miserable and hid it beneath sunshine smiles!! She has incision scars and mental trauma, for crying out loud.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

Where is this 'raised in a lab" shit coming from? She was found at icicle inn as a child and escaped with her mother--still as a child.... Yes, she was captured, yes it sucked balls, sure. But anyone know how long she was actually there?

[ μ ] – εуλ 19852/7
· Aerith Gainsborough is born in Icicle Lodge. 20 days after her birth, Professor Gast is shot to death by troops led by Hojo, and she is taken into custody at the ShinRa Building with her mother, Ifalna.

[ μ ] – εуλ 1992
· Aerith escapes from the ShinRa building with her mother, but Ifalna dies at the Sector Seven train station. Elmyra takes her in and raises Aerith as her adopted daughter.

So at least 7 years.

 

[Zee]

He did it with the clones. He just left mid experiment with Zack and Cloud and left someone to handle that for four years.
He did it mid FF7 when he dicked off to Costa del Sol.

That doesn't change the fact that Shinra's whole goal was to capture the Cetra and exploit their abilities. Aeris is kidnapped as an infant and doesn't escape until she's a young child -- that's quite a few years for Hojo to experiment on them, and in the case of the mother, it was so intense that she died from it. Suggesting that millions (billions) of dollars (gil?) was invested in this research and Hojo placed Aeris into a ShinRa daycare rather than treating how he treats every other experiment that walks through his door is beyond absurd.

 

[Winter]

Aerith was miserable and hid it beneath sunshine smiles!!

Well, she did. I mean yes, much of her life in the slums was good, but at the end of the day she's still lonely and hearing dead people.

 

[Shadowfox]

Aerith isn't an animal though, she really didn't need a 'number,' being the last of her kind.

Red was the last of his kind as well (as far as they knew at the time) and he was given a number.

If Aerith wasn't given a number, it was either because she wasn't experimented on, or she was but was deemed a failure.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Ifalna did not die from experimentation. I'd like to hear where such a claim was made because it was not in the game proper or any supplemental materials.

Aerith and Ifalna were held captive in the Shinra Building for 7 years. Aerith was 7 when she got out. However, CC tells us that their treatment in the science department was delicate since they were the last of their kind and they wanted to understand how they were able to detect mako energy. Nonetheless, they were still prisoners, and once Ifalna tried to escape, she was killed. That's what one of the scientists who held a grudge against Shinra for what they did to Ifalna said, during one of the mission dialogues to Zack. Ifalna was killed escaping from the company. Not by being cut up on a slab in a lab room.

 

[Ryushikaze]

So at least 7 years.

Exactly 7 years.

That doesn't change the fact that Shinra's whole goal was to capture the Cetra and exploit their abilities. Aeris is kidnapped as an infant and doesn't escape until she's a young child -- that's quite a few years for Hojo to experiment on them, and in the case of the mother, it was so intense that she died from it.

Whoa, whoa, where does it say she died from injuries of experimentation, instead of in the escape?

Suggesting that millions (billions) of dollars (gil?) was invested in this research and Hojo placed Aeris into a ShinRa daycare rather than treating how he treats every other experiment that walks through his door is beyond absurd.

Actually, I AM suggesting he treated Aerith pretty much like every other specimen- with absolute and utter disinterest the moment something slightly more interesting came along- in this case, her mother, at the least, qualifies for that.
I'm not saying her life was roses at this time, I'm just saying she was probably ignored by Hojo for her mother.

 

[Winter]

Ifalna did not die from experimentation. I'd like to hear where such a claim was made because it was not in the game proper or any supplemental materials.

OGC never gave us a reason for Ifalna's death.

I'd actually like that whole entire tidbit from CC, as I haven't played it and I'm curious to see what they've retconned now what happened to them.

I can't see how she'd get injured badly enough to die while escaping. Ifalna was in her late 20s, how the hell did she die from that unless she was undergoing some serious fucked up stuff in the laboratory?

 

[Zee]

Ifalna was killed escaping from the company. Not by being cut up on a slab in a lab room

No one ruled out her being shot at, from what I saw. But anyone with a shred of logic could add up that being in a lab for 7 years means you are probably drugged up to high hell and that makes chances of successful escape very slim. Unless you are River Tam, you do not escape after being drugged up unscathed.

@ Ryu as well: not instead of, in addition to.

I'm not saying her life was roses at this time, I'm just saying she was probably ignored by Hojo for her mother

Why would she be?

 

[Fairheartstrife]

OGC never gave us a reason for Ifalna's death.

I'd actually like that whole entire tidbit from CC, as I haven't played it and I'm curious to see what they've retconned now what happened to them.

I can't see how she'd get injured badly enough to die while escaping. Ifalna was in her late 20s, how the hell did she die from that unless she was undergoing some serious fucked up stuff in the laboratory?

I always assumed she was shot. But maybe it's something more elaborate.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Who says she'd be drugged up though...? If the purpose of them capturing the Cetra was to figure out how they could use a Cetra's abilities to find profitable land to extract mako from, where would the need to drug up someone and shit come into play? She's not part of the Jenova Project.

If she tried to escape, she'd get shot at. So that's how she'd be injured or hurt enough to die, mid-escape. They're not just gonna let her walk out of the lobby.

 

[Winter]

No one ruled out her being shot at, from what I saw. But anyone with a shred of logic could add up that being in a lab for 7 years means you are probably drugged up to high hell and that makes chances of successful escape very slim. Unless you are River Tam, you do not escape after being drugged up unscathed.

Plus Hojo is known for fucking around with Jenova cells, which as I recall are pretty poisonous to Cetra.

IF I RECALL, that one is a little sketchy in my brain.

If Aerith wasn't given a number, it was either because she wasn't experimented on, or she was but was deemed a failure.

Because Hojo has always been known for being such an organized and consistent guy, just like SE's writing staff.

Who says she'd be drugged up though...? If the purpose of them capturing the Cetra was to figure out how they could use a Cetra's abilities to find profitable land to extract mako from, where would the need to drug up someone and shit come into play? She's not part of the Jenova Project.

I like how you're implying that Hojo has some sort of logic.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

Why would she be?

I thought the reason Shin-Ra was watching her was to see if she manifested her Cetra powers. Yes, she had the lineage, but as far as they knew it was dormant or not there at all. So, as far as Hojo went, why would he deal with a child that had yet to show anything of interest/worth?

 

[Winter]

If she tried to escape, she'd get shot at. So that's how she'd be injured or hurt enough to die, mid-escape. They're not just gonna let her walk out of the lobby.

Okay wait so you're saying they treat the Cetra delicately enough not to experiment on them, but then fire rounds of bullets into them when they escape?

Yeah, President Shinra even said himself in the game that he'd be pissed if Aerith were killed. Why would Shinra willing kill a Cetra?

 

[Makoeyes987]

Hojo's insane but he's not stupid. He wouldn't pursue an experiment and then sabotage it against company's orders. That's just completely superfluous and ridiculous.

And more than likely, the Shinra Guards were given orders to pursue the samples, and they stupidly were heavy handed and started shooting. You know, just like they did with Cloud and Zack, when they were ordered to get the samples back ALIVE and instead, killed one and left the other.

 

[Ryushikaze]

No one ruled out her being shot at, from what I saw. But anyone with a shred of logic could add up that being in a lab for 7 years means you are probably drugged up to high hell and that makes chances of successful escape very slim. Unless you are River Tam, you do not escape after being drugged up unscathed.

Why are we assuming she'd be drugged up to high hell, exactly? She's not exactly useful to ShinRa as a vegetable.
It's also possibly to escape with injuries even while totally lucid, too.

@ Ryu as well: not instead of, in addition to.

You did not say 'as well' in your initial post. The omission made it sound as though you suggested she died from experimentation alone.

Why would she be?

Because her mother or another expiriment takes all of Hojo's attention? Because she's too fragile as a specimen to risk without a safety net? Because she hasn't displayed Cetra-ness yet?

 

[OneWingedDemon]

Man, am I glad you're here to stop this fanfiction bullshit.
I was going to reply, but then you covered it pretty well, so Imma just c&p:

Ifalna did not die from experimentation. I'd like to hear where such a claim was made because it was not in the game proper or any supplemental materials.

Aerith and Ifalna were held captive in the Shinra Building for 7 years. Aerith was 7 when she got out. However, CC tells us that their treatment in the science department was delicate since they were the last of their kind and they wanted to understand how they were able to detect mako energy. Nonetheless, they were still prisoners, and once Ifalna tried to escape, she was killed. That's what one of the scientists who held a grudge against Shinra for what they did to Ifalna said, during one of the mission dialogues to Zack. Ifalna was killed escaping from the company. Not by being cut up on a slab in a lab room.

We are never told that Ifalna and Aeris were physically tortured/experimented on heavily to the point that people here are wildly making up. Hojo could have just taken daily blood samples from her and amde her draw pictures. We aren't told.

Also, what part of 'poor, but happy" sounds like a fucking nightmare to you people?

 

[Vendel]

People. PEOPLE!

None of this matters. Because we all know that Clouds promised land is the pool of water in the church. Quit distracting from that point.

 

[Zee]

I thought the reason Shin-Ra was watching her was to see if she manifested her Cetra powers. Yes, she had the lineage, but as far as they knew it was dormant or not there at all. So, as far as Hojo went, why would he deal with a child that had yet to show anything of interest/worth?

Did Kuja show Eiko mercy because her powers weren't at its prime? No, she had something he wanted and he fucking took it LIKE A BOSS

So to see how Cetra abilities developed in a child, yeah, for sure Hojo would have done the same.